That makes sense, thanks. With many big open-source projects there's a company backing it (e.g. Ansible there's a company providing support and services for the open-source product), and though there's no guarantee that it'll stick around, knowing there's a commercial incentive for a company to continue to maintain the project actively does bring a level of comfort.
Are there companies offering professional support or consulting for Pyramid? On the project site there's 'Who's using Pylons Project software', didn't realize large public-facing sites like digg and cars.com are using Pyramid. Is there a more thorough list of these sites available? Or perhaps you might personally know of some other large public-facing websites that are currently using Pyramid extensively? No worries about Pyramid's future, but it never hurts to get more knowledge. On Thursday, December 11, 2014 2:28:25 PM UTC+1, Chris Rossi wrote: > > Ok, less snarky version--one doesn't know the future, but the community > around Pyramid is cohesive enough that it should endure for some time to > come. Enough businesses are using it in their core infrastructure that > it's unlikely the community would just shrivel up overnight. The reason > there are so few features slated for future release is because Pyramid, > itself, is starting to feel finished. It does what it does really well and > we don't feel that we're wanting for features. The bulk of new development > is around layers on top or add-ons for Pyramid--projects that contribute to > the Pyramid ecosystem, but not necessarily to Pyramid core. Because, > really, core already has most of the features anyone wants at that layer. > > Chris > > On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 6:34 AM, Steve Piercy <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> Pyramid is "as is". No warranty. >> https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/blob/master/LICENSE.txt >> >> If you want people to maintain something for you indefinitely, then you >> need to make an agreement or contract for services. Sorry to be snarky, >> but come on! Pyramid is a free and open source project, and expectations >> need to align with that reality. >> >> --steve >> >> >> On 12/11/14 at 3:12 AM, [email protected] <javascript:> (pyramidX) >> pronounced: >> >> I love Pyramid and my only thought is will it be maintained >>> indefinitely? Say if the few main committers move on is there some sponsor >>> who will step in? (I have similar thoughts about SQL Alchemy which my >>> Pyramid app uses heavily.) My other thought is whether there is a roadmap >>> for the future of Pyramid. It's good to know the project has a plan of >>> where it wants to take things. I see https://github.com/Pylons/ >>> pyramid/blob/master/TODO.txt#L116 but there's only one new feature >>> listed for each release like 1.6, 1.7, etc. >>> >>> On Wednesday, December 10, 2014 7:19:26 AM UTC+1, lostdorje wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> +1 to all the responses regarding there being Python and Ruby >>>> developers vs there being Django and Rails developers (and even Wordpress >>>> developers...*cough*...vs PHP developers). I got my degree in Computer >>>> Science, so I just consider myself a developer, period. The point of these >>>> narrowly scoped dev types is well taken. I wouldn't want to hire anyone >>>> whose skill set is so tightly tied to a framework. I'd guess in most cases >>>> such developers wouldn't 'scale' well in a growing startup. >>>> >>>> And +1 to Torsten's comment about Python, rather than just Pyramid >>>> itself, having a user base with strong programming roots beyond just web >>>> development within a framework. >>>> >>>> And +1 to Jonathan. Totally agree with you on: Lower-level frameworks >>>> like Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract developers more interested-in or >>>> experienced-with the language, the user pool is smaller and >>>> self-selecting. >>>> This has both advantages and disadvantages, but in terms of getting the >>>> best talent on board, it seems the best talent would definitely be more >>>> interested in/experienced with the 'lower level' frameworks. >>>> >>>> Thanks for all the insightful responses, it helps me confirm I still >>>> believe Pyramid is the right choice for the startup we are building out. >>>> Regardless of technology stack, we will only being hiring *real* >>>> developers >>>> and not devs who can hide behind a framework as a crutch, obfuscating the >>>> depth of their real technical knowledge. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 12:44 AM, Jonathan Vanasco <[email protected] >>>> <javascript:>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I'll preface this by saying that I'm biased towards Pyramid, and when >>>>> I have to program - I prefer it. I begrudgingly program though - I'm >>>>> usually on the business/product/management side. But in the past 3 >>>>> years: I've been working extensively with Pyramid on a personal >>>>> project, >>>>> was CTO of a large media company that had a re-deploy onto Rails >>>>> in-progress (a mistake that was scrapped), and was the Product/Tech >>>>> advisor to medium sided media company that was on Django. >>>>> >>>>> If you're doing a "Startup" that is in any way unique or looking to >>>>> scale, I would only consider doing it in Pyramid. If it's going to be >>>>> essentially a lot of basic functionality, something off-the-shelf (blog, >>>>> e-commerce) and nothing really proprietary or large scale, then >>>>> Django/Rails would be perfect. Aside from the language difference, Rails >>>>> >>>>> and Django are basically the same (there are some differences in >>>>> approach, but both are very high level frameworks). If you are a >>>>> building >>>>> a one-off project, an advertising campaign, are a dev-shop working for a >>>>> client's time-limited event, etc -- then Django/Rails are what you want, >>>>> and Pyramid would be overkill. >>>>> >>>>> Pyramid / Pylons is a very low-level framework. You'll spend more >>>>> time and energy getting some basic things done at the outset, but you >>>>> won't ever be constrained by the Framework or Data Model, and your >>>>> velocity will improve or stay consistent as you need to pivot or scale. >>>>> You can make large changes with little work, and easily introduce "quick >>>>> fixes" if needed. >>>>> >>>>> Django is very high level. It's so high-level, that most people I >>>>> know consider it more like editing configuration files than writing >>>>> Python. You'll be off to a quick start in basic functionality, but >>>>> quickly feel constrained by a fairly rigid API and the need to do things >>>>> the Django way. Your velocity will plummet as the project moves >>>>> onwards. >>>>> It can be exceedingly hard to implement a "quick fix", because the >>>>> framework is so tightly integrated. Adding new functionality and >>>>> addressing bottlenecks can be aggravating. >>>>> >>>>> Rails is basically the same as Django, except it's in Ruby. >>>>> In terms of hiring... from firsthand experience it is incredibly hard >>>>> to find *good* Django/Ruby developers. This has less to do with the >>>>> concept of a "Developers Market" that others noted (which is true) than >>>>> it has to do with the overall talent pool. While there are a lot of >>>>> really brilliant Python/Ruby developers in the Django/Ruby community, >>>>> I've >>>>> found that the majority the community are Django/Ruby developers -- NOT >>>>> Python/Ruby developers. These people tend to be pretty unfamiliar with >>>>> the core language and just know the framework -- usually through a HowTo >>>>> book or some sort of bootstrap class. Bad developers flock to the >>>>> buzzwords: to Java, then to PHP, and then to Django/Rails. The result >>>>> is >>>>> that the signal-to-noise ratio in the Django/Rails applicant pool is >>>>> ridiculously low -- and you can spend months trying to source candidates >>>>> worth bringing in to an interview -- only to end up paying a premium for >>>>> bad developers who simply know the stack. I've had Rails/Django devs >>>>> with >>>>> 2 years professional experience demand higher compensation than >>>>> developers >>>>> with 10 years of work experience who were experts in a field. It's a >>>>> ridiculous premium. >>>>> >>>>> Lower-level frameworks like Flask, Pyramid, etc tend to attract >>>>> developers more interested-in or experienced-with the language, the user >>>>> pool is smaller and self-selecting. This is simply a correlated effect >>>>> to >>>>> the popularity of the frameworks. So you might identify 100 candidates >>>>> for a Rails/Django position, but only want to interview 2 after seeing >>>>> their resumes... meanwhile you might identity 5 candidates for a >>>>> Pyramid/Flask position and probably want to bring all of them in. There >>>>> are definitely a lot more "good" Rails/Django developers than >>>>> Pyramid/Flask developers -- but you'll have to sort through hundreds of >>>>> applications or profiles to find them. >>>>> >>>>> If you do go the Django/Rails route, I would suggest doing all your >>>>> recruiting by targeting people through contributions to open source >>>>> projects. All the best applicants I've met were either active >>>>> contributors to larger projects, or had a few small (and well written) >>>>> libraries of their own -- and I could quickly judge if they actually >>>>> knew >>>>> Python/Ruby or not. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>> Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>> send an email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>>>> <javascript:>. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> ------------------------ >> Steve Piercy, Soquel, CA >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "pylons-discuss" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/pylons-discuss. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "pylons-discuss" group. 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