On 26/05/2010 13:19, Paul Moore wrote:
On 26 May 2010 11:56, Antoine Pitrou<solip...@pitrou.net> wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2010 20:42:12 +1000
Steven D'Aprano<st...@pearwood.info> wrote:
I'm not saying that Python-Dev should bend over backwards to accommodate
such people to the exclusion of all else, but these folks are
stakeholders too, and their wants and needs are just as worthy as the
wants and needs of those who prefer a more conservative approach to the
standard library.
Well, my "Sumo" proposal was a serious one.
(not serious in that I would offer to give a hand, but in that I think
it could help those people; also, wouldn't it be sensible for users in
a corporate environment to share their efforts and produce something
that can benefit all of them? it's the free software spirit after all)
I'm not sure how a "Sumo" approach would work in practical terms, and
this thread isn't really the place to discuss, but there's a couple of
points I think are worth making:
* For a "Sumo" distribution to make sense, some relatively substantial
chunk of the standard library would need to be moved *out* to reside
in the sumo distribution. Otherwise it's not really a "sumo", just a
couple of modules that "nearly made it into the stdlib", at least for
the near-to-medium term. I've yet to see any sort of consensus that
python-dev is willing to undertake that decoupling work. (Which would
include extracting the various tests, migrating bugs out of the
pythion tracker, etc etc).
* If the decoupled modules aren't simply being abandoned, python-dev
needs to continue to commit to supporting them "in the wild" (i.e., on
PyPI and in the sumo distribution). Otherwise we're just abandoning
existing users and saying "support it yourself". I've seen no
indication that python-dev members would expect to follow bug trackers
for various decoupled modules - so in practice, this sounds more like
abandonment than decoupling.
Until a stdlib-decoupling proposal which takes these aspects into
account is on the table, I'm afraid that suggesting there's a "Sumo
distribution" style middle ground between stdlib and PyPI isn't really
true...
Well... a middle ground certainly could exist; perhaps in the form of an
"Extended Standard Library" (community distribution), with simple
installation and management tools.
It could be "blessed" by python-dev and maintain a high standard (only
well established best-of-breed modules with a commitment of ongoing
maintenance and more than one maintainer - something that the stdlib
itself doesn't stick to). A common license could even be chosen,
potentially allowing corporations to approve the extended package in a
single pass.
Lot of details to flesh out obviously - but it would be great to see
something like this come into being. Obviously this would need to be a
community initiative and would take some time to establish. A "fat"
distribution like this, based on tools like pip and distribute would be
great for both newbies and for experienced programmers in making it
easier to find "best" solutions for standard problems. It could also act
as an incubator for the standard library (perhaps with stable and
experimental streams where stable has a more conservative update policy).
All the best,
Michael Foord
Paul.
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