> On Feb 20, 2017, at 1:53 PM, John Clements <cleme...@brinckerhoff.org> wrote:
> No, I don’t think you missed anything, but from the standpoint of those 
> teaching early classes in either Java or Python (a standpoint that I 
> understand you are generally and mercifully not compelled to adopt),

Yes. As a you know well, I firmly believe that such courses should be taught 
with teaching languages that are best suited for beginners. No of-the-rack 
language is good enough for the job. One of the things we should show students 
is that existing languages are bad (in many different regards). It’s the second 
course that should make students chafe against the (low) moral compromises of 
existing languages (Java, Python), because we owe them an introduction to the 
baddities of the real world. (Is this a bad neologism?) 

In this spirit . . . 

> it seems that there’s a missing piece in unit testing frameworks: namely, the 
> default check-expect form in these languages should not be one that refers to 
> the notion of outside-of-module-extensional equality, but rather one that 
> refers to inside-of-module-extensional equality, as check-expect does. I’d be 
> tempted to call this notion of equality “testing equality,” but I’ve been 
> called out before on my barbarous neologisms. (Not sure this one would be 
> considered barbarous, at any rate.) Additionally, students should probably 
> not be required to implement this notion of equality by hand. Sounds like a 
> nice three-page position paper, probably not good enough for ITICSE, maybe 
> SIGSCE (sigh).

Did Viera Proulx’s testing framework and its reliance on reflection solve the 
problem for Java? Given that both languages do come with reflection 
capabilities (this makes me want to include #%app and #%module-begin in ISL so 
we can discuss good language interposition strategies), the question is 

        can you mimic Racket’s approach to inside-testing and 

Then you can turn your 3-pager into a real paper. Or someone has already done 

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