First to Noel, in Jn. 3:5 the water refers to physical birth hence the
importance of the term Born Again.
Second, to Scott. What I have to say deals strictly with Doctrinal
issues and dispensations also. Each passage of scripture has three
applications: 1. Historical 2. Doctrinal and 3 Spiritual. One of these 3
is usually the main emphasis of the passage. While the spiritual
application of the thief on the cross may be that you can be saved
instantly without waiting or any exercise other than faith and although
this IS doctrinally true it is not true historically as it pertains to
THIS man. Please, let me explain what at first glance will have some in
uproars over an apparent heresy.
None of the Old Testament Saints were born again. The thief on the cross
may have been the last OT Saint. When Jesus told him " Today you will be
with me in Paradise" he was not referring to Heaven but Abraham's bosom.
Abraham's bosom or Paradise was a special place near Hell. When Lazarus
and the rich man died ( this is not a parable ) they were in two
distinctly separate places with a great fixed gulf between them. One was
in torment while the other was not. The rich man longed to be where
Lazarus was but he could not get there. He appealed to Father Abraham to
send Lazarus to comfort him with a drop of water and then to send him to
his brothers. Paradise was an air conditioned part of Hell where the
righteous OT Saint went to await the resurrection.
As to my statement to the OT Saints not being born again, as we know it,
since Jesus had not died and ascended to the Father's throne and
presented The Blood as an atonement for our sin, the mercy seat was not
yet covered. Hence New Testament salvation by grace through faith had not
yet occured. It was not until after the Church age started that this new
dispensation was in effect. Personally, I have a little difficulty in
deciding when this technically occured ie. Pentecost, Stephens stoning or
maybe after Paul's schooling from Jesus on the back side of the desert.
The book of Acts is a transitional period from Old to New.
I have other thoughts on Stephen's stoning and the origin of the Church
as well as the possibility that the New Testament need never to have been
written. If you want I can explain further but please don't freak out
over the last statement. I know from history and God's foreknowledge that
it would happen.
Anyway Scott, I am not trying to correvt you per se just, as always,
interested in the truth. I do not think you were trying to lead astray or
anything.
On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:24:27 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>Noel:
>
>Later on in the chapter Jesus also said you must be born again. Jesus
>was
>referring to the spiritual rebirth of salvation. Not of the Holy
>Spirit.
>Notice that Nicodemus was puzzled by Jesus' words.
>
>First Baptism is an act of faith. Water baptism cannot be means of
>salvation. It is a work of faith. Can man go to Heaven by works,
>surely
>not.
>
>The A/G believes that one does not have to be Baptized by the Holy
>Spirit to
>go into Heaven ( speaking in tongues) .
>
>Here is an example of both. The man on the Cross with Jesus. The
>man
>probably was not baptized with water and surely not baptized with the
>Holy
>Spirit. However, Jesus told the man the he would be with Jesus in
>Paradise.
>
>This was a guarantee that the man was to go into Heaven.
>
>Some people from other religious background with cite that this was a
>because that Jesus was not dead as of yet. Sorry, but I feel
>compelled to
>believe that timing didn't matter to Jesus. Jesus saw the belief in
>the
>heart of the man.
>
>See, we who are sinful make the mistake that we are too sinful. When
>we die
>we die with sin still in our lives. Jesus is able to look past the
>sin and
>see our soul, spirit, faith.
>
>Jesus wants us to be Holy. Jesus also knows that we can never attain
>that
>standard. But the pursuit of Holiness and faith make the difference.
>
>Sorry, if I ran on. If any feel that I am wrong, Show me where
>(Rhinoceros
>hide still attached), and I will be happy to bend like the reed in the
>wind.
>
>:)
>
>Scott Tobman
>Indiana #22
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Spirit Rider [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 2:35 PM
>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Subject: [RR] Baptizem ?
>>
>> All,
>> In an ICQ chatroom the last few days, several people tend to belive
>that
>> you have
>> to be baptized in both water and of the Spirit you are not saved.
>> They are using John 3:5 which says: Jesus answered " I tell you
>the
>> truth,
>> no man can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and
>the
>> Spirit."
>> In John 3:3 Jesus says born again but in 3:5 he says this.
>> Any thought or input?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Noel"Spirit Rider"Bell
>> _______
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