Graybeard;
I like you. This discussion did not resort to angry words, name calling, or
the ever present "I'm signing off Rangernet and blah, blah, blah".
I agree fully with everything you have "said". And would interject this: I
(emphasis on the I) don't think physics can be used to describe God. I view
Hell as being at the opposite extreme from God. Sin cannot exist in His
presence. So to me Hell has to be way-far (a very technical term) from God.
And since the Earth is His footstool, Stephen looked "up" to see Jesus, etc.
I would say that God is always "up", above, looking down. Hence if God is
up, then Hell is down. Physics or not God is above, Hell is, at the extreme
opposite, therefore down. Gods unlimited intellect describing for our
finite intellect.
Also, in Revelations, it states that the 'saints' are crying out from
beneath the altar. Sorry, my bible is not present with me so this is not an
exact quote. So, this would lead me to believe that the OT saints are in
Heaven since that is where the altar is at.
This is IMHO.
Thanx, for the great statement of faith.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, January 29, 1999 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [RR] Baptism ?
> Hell is a holding place for the lake of fire. Paradise was a holding
>place for the righeous OT Saint. Hell by necessity must be in the center
>of the Earth therefore Paradise must be deep in the Earth. Jesus
>descended into Hell and rose on the third day ( Apostles creed remember
>). I figure the climate was nice, maybe Hell is just an unbearably hot
>part of Paradise? The thief and Stephen are on different sides of the
>Cross ( timeline ) by some years and Jesus was physically in 2 different
>places. He said he had not yet ascended to his Father.
> Of course no OT Saint is still there: He led captivity captive. By the
>way Don Francisco's song Too small a price/ Joy several years ago
>describes a possible scenario for this.
> My reasoning for Hell being at the center of the Earth is because of the
>bottomless pit. Only a shaft leading to the center with a sphericle room
>at the center satisfies the Physics of the matter. Jules Verne reasoned
>this out 100 years ago with his story Journey to the Centre of the Earth.
>In his story up was toward the center and down was away from it. Right
>now if you imagine yourself on a sphere ( the globe ) down is toward the
>center of the Earth and up is away. If Victor and I both point up, he
>will point toward the Southern Cross and I to the North Star, in the
>opposite direction from a cosmic viewpoint. If we were to turn upside
>down and travel " up " 6 ft. our feet would be on the inside outer
>surface of the planet. An object falling into a bottomless pit would
>eventually reach equilibrum at the center of a sphere. At the center
>every way the object " looked " would be down and the constant " feel" of
>falling would be present: hence bottomless.
> Robert I'm glad you at least looked at your Bible so this discussion has
>some profit.
> BTW was Jesus cheering Stephen on or was he readying himself for the
>Second Coming?
>
>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 16:36:23 -0700 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>I would like to know something.
>>
>>Where does the Bible say that Paradise is "an air conditioned part of
>>Hell"?
>>
>>Luke 16:22 - 23 say only:
>>22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to
>>Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried.
>>23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham
>>far
>>away, with Lazarus by his side.
>>
>>Nowhere in this passage does it say that Abraham is in "a part of
>>Hell".
>>In Acts 7:55 we read :
>>55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw
>>the
>>glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
>>
>>Granted the passage in Luke does not include that Lazrus looked up to
>>"heaven" , but neither does it say he was in "a part of Hell".
>>Therefore, where are you gleaning that Abraham, and other OT saints
>>are in
>>this portion of Hell?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 01/29/99 03:38:38 PM
>>
>>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>cc: (bcc: Robert D Hamilton/Page Digital)
>>Subject: Re: [RR] Baptism ?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> First to Noel, in Jn. 3:5 the water refers to physical birth
>>hence the
>>importance of the term Born Again.
>> Second, to Scott. What I have to say deals strictly with
>>Doctrinal
>>issues and dispensations also. Each passage of scripture has three
>>applications: 1. Historical 2. Doctrinal and 3 Spiritual. One of these
>>3
>>is usually the main emphasis of the passage. While the spiritual
>>application of the thief on the cross may be that you can be saved
>>instantly without waiting or any exercise other than faith and
>>although
>>this IS doctrinally true it is not true historically as it pertains
>>to
>>THIS man. Please, let me explain what at first glance will have some
>>in
>>uproars over an apparent heresy.
>> None of the Old Testament Saints were born again. The thief on
>>the
>>cross
>>may have been the last OT Saint. When Jesus told him " Today you will
>>be
>>with me in Paradise" he was not referring to Heaven but Abraham's
>>bosom.
>>Abraham's bosom or Paradise was a special place near Hell. When
>>Lazarus
>>and the rich man died ( this is not a parable ) they were in two
>>distinctly separate places with a great fixed gulf between them. One
>>was
>>in torment while the other was not. The rich man longed to be where
>>Lazarus was but he could not get there. He appealed to Father Abraham
>>to
>>send Lazarus to comfort him with a drop of water and then to send him
>>to
>>his brothers. Paradise was an air conditioned part of Hell where the
>>righteous OT Saint went to await the resurrection.
>> As to my statement to the OT Saints not being born again, as we
>>know
>>it,
>>since Jesus had not died and ascended to the Father's throne and
>>presented The Blood as an atonement for our sin, the mercy seat was
>>not
>>yet covered. Hence New Testament salvation by grace through faith had
>>not
>>yet occured. It was not until after the Church age started that this
>>new
>>dispensation was in effect. Personally, I have a little difficulty in
>>deciding when this technically occured ie. Pentecost, Stephens stoning
>>or
>>maybe after Paul's schooling from Jesus on the back side of the
>>desert.
>>The book of Acts is a transitional period from Old to New.
>> I have other thoughts on Stephen's stoning and the origin of the
>>Church
>>as well as the possibility that the New Testament need never to have
>>been
>>written. If you want I can explain further but please don't freak out
>>over the last statement. I know from history and God's foreknowledge
>>that
>>it would happen.
>> Anyway Scott, I am not trying to correvt you per se just, as
>>always,
>>interested in the truth. I do not think you were trying to lead astray
>>or
>>anything.
>>
>>On Fri, 29 Jan 1999 15:24:27 -0500 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>>>Noel:
>>>
>>>Later on in the chapter Jesus also said you must be born again.
>>Jesus
>>>was
>>>referring to the spiritual rebirth of salvation. Not of the Holy
>>>Spirit.
>>>Notice that Nicodemus was puzzled by Jesus' words.
>>>
>>>First Baptism is an act of faith. Water baptism cannot be means of
>>>salvation. It is a work of faith. Can man go to Heaven by works,
>>>surely
>>>not.
>>>
>>>The A/G believes that one does not have to be Baptized by the Holy
>>>Spirit to
>>>go into Heaven ( speaking in tongues) .
>>>
>>>Here is an example of both. The man on the Cross with Jesus. The
>>>man
>>>probably was not baptized with water and surely not baptized with
>>the
>>>Holy
>>>Spirit. However, Jesus told the man the he would be with Jesus in
>>>Paradise.
>>>
>>>This was a guarantee that the man was to go into Heaven.
>>>
>>>Some people from other religious background with cite that this was
>>a
>>>because that Jesus was not dead as of yet. Sorry, but I feel
>>>compelled to
>>>believe that timing didn't matter to Jesus. Jesus saw the belief in
>>>the
>>>heart of the man.
>>>
>>>See, we who are sinful make the mistake that we are too sinful.
>>When
>>>we die
>>>we die with sin still in our lives. Jesus is able to look past the
>>>sin and
>>>see our soul, spirit, faith.
>>>
>>>Jesus wants us to be Holy. Jesus also knows that we can never
>>attain
>>>that
>>>standard. But the pursuit of Holiness and faith make the
>>difference.
>>>
>>>Sorry, if I ran on. If any feel that I am wrong, Show me where
>>>(Rhinoceros
>>>hide still attached), and I will be happy to bend like the reed in
>>the
>>>wind.
>>>
>>>:)
>>>
>>>Scott Tobman
>>>Indiana #22
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Spirit Rider [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>> Sent: Friday, January 29, 1999 2:35 PM
>>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>> Subject: [RR] Baptizem ?
>>>>
>>>> All,
>>>> In an ICQ chatroom the last few days, several people tend to
>>belive
>>>that
>>>> you have
>>>> to be baptized in both water and of the Spirit you are not saved.
>>>> They are using John 3:5 which says: Jesus answered " I tell you
>>>the
>>>> truth,
>>>> no man can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and
>>>the
>>>> Spirit."
>>>> In John 3:3 Jesus says born again but in 3:5 he says this.
>>>> Any thought or input?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Noel"Spirit Rider"Bell
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