"...the 700c x 32mm combo is supposed to be the optimum for this "lively" feel..."
Pano: where does this dictum come from? Can you give a source? Not a contradiction, just a question. Jan says, in effect, that tire width has no bearing on "liveliness" if weight is much the same and if suppleness is the same (he also says that certain tire widths are best for certain diameters, though the "liveliness" in this regard is wrt handling, not rolling -- and don't know if I agree with his views here). I can say that, for a given tire size, that I certainly can tell the difference in rolling resistance between tires of different sorts but of the same width, but not in tires of different widths but of the same sort, at least between 22 mms and 35 mms. Certainly, the 27-29 mm Elk Pass (extralights) seem to roll faster than the already fast feeling 22 mm 1" Turbos of yore, or recent Michelin Pro Race 4s (all 559 or 571 bsd). OTOH, I certainly can feel the *handling* difference between 22 mm and 32 mm, at least on some bikes I rode a great deal with both widths, tires being 559 Turbo and 559 X 32 Paselas, and about 40 grams between the 2 -- 200 versus 240. (Bikes: NORBA mountain bikes and my earliest Riv Road custom.) What do others think? Pano, are you thinking of the other kind of liveliness, wrt change in direction, and not rolling resistance? On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 10:47 AM, panog <panogiannio...@gmail.com> wrote: > I would also suggest using narrower tires to the tune of 32 or 33 mm for > the 700c wheels. Assuming the OP is on relatively smooth tarmac, the 700c x > 32mm combo is supposed to be the optimum for this "lively" feel without > sacrificing too much comfort. > > Pano > > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 11:51:07 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> This is very true as a principle, but if John is already using Compass >> tires, even the standard model -- I take it that from his "beefy" >> qualification, it' not the extralight -- then gains from switching are >> probably going to be far less than switching from, say, one of the heavier >> Marathons. >> >> What do others find from switching from Compass's standard to extralight >> casings, with the same model of tire? >> >> I take it that we can leave suppleness out of the question here, assuming >> that the SP standard's casing isn't all that less supple than any of the EL >> casings? >> >> The Snoqualmie EL weighs 50 gr less than the S; even the Bon Jon EL is >> only 76 grams lighter. If you switched to the Stampede EL, you'd save about >> 120 grams per wheel, but I don't know if that is enough to make the bike >> feel noticeably friskier. >> >> Perhaps rims + tires will make a noticeable difference. What rims are you >> using? I'm not all that familiar with 700 c road rims, but for example, if >> you are using Rhyno Lights, say, at ~700 grams/wheel, and switched to, say, >> a Mavic M40 at 200 grams lighter, and switched from the SP standards to the >> Stampede EL -- theoretical 320-350 grams per wheel saving -- you'd feel a >> noticeable difference. >> >> But! I've found that there are all sorts of other things that make a bike >> feel "lively", and, again IME, it's not limited to frame tubing and wheel >> weight. I've found more than once that bikes with heavier tubing and >> mediocre tires somehow feel faster* than others with lighter tubing or >> better tires** and have attributed this to geometry and body position. >> >> * My former Herse had been passed on by 2 other experienced riders >> because its tubing was too heavy. I had it shod with Paselas (non-TG) or >> perhaps IRC Tandems (~29 mm) -- certainly nothing fancy. The bike was >> certainly heavier than that '73 Motobecane. But it felt faster. Ditto for >> my very early Schwinn Tempo: tank, cheap tires. I'm not denying at all that >> tires are not the principal improvement after fit and wind resistance, but >> other factors may well be in play her, given the conditions of the question >> as discussed above. >> >> FWIW, although saving 2 lb per wheel by switching from 800 gram rims and >> 800 gram tires + 200 gram tubes to road-bike-weight rims and 360 gram tires >> on the Fargo certainly made a difference, it didn't make as much difference >> as that between say the Herse and the Motobecane. (Not that the Motobecane >> was sluggish; it just didn't encourage me to gear up the way the Herse did. >> Aside: I sold the Herse because it's load carrying and handling qualities >> were not what I wanted. The ride and fit and feel was were wonderful.) >> >> ** I judge this by repeatedly finding that certain bikes are easier to >> pedal in given gears in given conditions. >> >> So: what? I dunno! I'll be interested to hear what you do. >> >> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:49 AM, panog <panogia...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> In my opinion, if "lively'" is what you seek, I would look first at >>> tires and tubes, then rims. These are the primary contributors. Hubs would >>> be the very, very distant fourth. >>> >>> Hope it helps >>> >>> Pano >>> >>> -- >>> >> > On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 11:51:07 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote: >> >> This is very true as a principle, but if John is already using Compass >> tires, even the standard model -- I take it that from his "beefy" >> qualification, it' not the extralight -- then gains from switching are >> probably going to be far less than switching from, say, one of the heavier >> Marathons. >> >> What do others find from switching from Compass's standard to extralight >> casings, with the same model of tire? >> >> I take it that we can leave suppleness out of the question here, assuming >> that the SP standard's casing isn't all that less supple than any of the EL >> casings? >> >> The Snoqualmie EL weighs 50 gr less than the S; even the Bon Jon EL is >> only 76 grams lighter. If you switched to the Stampede EL, you'd save about >> 120 grams per wheel, but I don't know if that is enough to make the bike >> feel noticeably friskier. >> >> Perhaps rims + tires will make a noticeable difference. What rims are you >> using? I'm not all that familiar with 700 c road rims, but for example, if >> you are using Rhyno Lights, say, at ~700 grams/wheel, and switched to, say, >> a Mavic M40 at 200 grams lighter, and switched from the SP standards to the >> Stampede EL -- theoretical 320-350 grams per wheel saving -- you'd feel a >> noticeable difference. >> >> But! I've found that there are all sorts of other things that make a bike >> feel "lively", and, again IME, it's not limited to frame tubing and wheel >> weight. I've found more than once that bikes with heavier tubing and >> mediocre tires somehow feel faster* than others with lighter tubing or >> better tires** and have attributed this to geometry and body position. >> >> * My former Herse had been passed on by 2 other experienced riders >> because its tubing was too heavy. I had it shod with Paselas (non-TG) or >> perhaps IRC Tandems (~29 mm) -- certainly nothing fancy. The bike was >> certainly heavier than that '73 Motobecane. But it felt faster. Ditto for >> my very early Schwinn Tempo: tank, cheap tires. I'm not denying at all that >> tires are not the principal improvement after fit and wind resistance, but >> other factors may well be in play her, given the conditions of the question >> as discussed above. >> >> FWIW, although saving 2 lb per wheel by switching from 800 gram rims and >> 800 gram tires + 200 gram tubes to road-bike-weight rims and 360 gram tires >> on the Fargo certainly made a difference, it didn't make as much difference >> as that between say the Herse and the Motobecane. (Not that the Motobecane >> was sluggish; it just didn't encourage me to gear up the way the Herse did. >> Aside: I sold the Herse because it's load carrying and handling qualities >> were not what I wanted. The ride and fit and feel was were wonderful.) >> >> ** I judge this by repeatedly finding that certain bikes are easier to >> pedal in given gears in given conditions. >> >> So: what? I dunno! I'll be interested to hear what you do. >> >> On Mon, Jun 12, 2017 at 1:49 AM, panog <panogia...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> In my opinion, if "lively'" is what you seek, I would look first at >>> tires and tubes, then rims. These are the primary contributors. Hubs would >>> be the very, very distant fourth. >>> >>> Hope it helps >>> >>> Pano >>> >>> -- >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- *30% Supply and Demand discount, listmembers only, on all resume, LinkedIn, and writing services, until Demand equals Supply! And there's more! 10% kickback for any referral resulting in fully paid, list-price contract. And still more! I am offering services in trade for a road bike, or frame and parts, that are period compatible with my AM hub, circa 1937 to 1961. See my website for what I do and what I charge; email for details.* Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews. By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching. Other professional writing services. http://www.resumespecialties.com/ www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/ Patrick Moore Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique, Vereinigte Staaten ************************************************************************** ************** -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. 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