What a great outcome On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 10:09 AM Eric Marth <ericma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Ryan and Danny. Just rode another 3 miles on a quick bank errand, > no skips. Will have to try a longer ride when it dries out. > > Also installed a Brooks Pro I purchased from Two Wheeled Texan's Grand > Relocation Parts Blowout and I liked it! > > On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:15:42 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote: > >> Glad this saga had a happy ending!I bet you're relieved >> >> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:20:22 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote: >> >>> Ooops, didn't see your update just before I posted. Glad you got it >>> worked out! >>> >>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:16:54 PM UTC-5 Danny wrote: >>> >>>> I'm curious to hear what ends up resolving the issue. I hope it's as >>>> easy as a new cassette, but I'm most intrigued by it being related to the >>>> elongated hole. >>>> >>>> Re: alignment tools, after borrowing my friend's Park DAG a handful of >>>> times over a few months, I decided to buy my own tool. Ended up with the >>>> Wolf Tooth one that Stephen linked to. Have only used it once so far, but I >>>> found it to work quite well. Doesn't take up much room in the drawer, and I >>>> don't have to endure the frequent screeching of metal sliding on metal that >>>> I experienced with the Park tool. >>>> >>>> -Danny >>>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 3, 2023 at 7:52 PM Eric Marth <eric...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> George: Thanks for reading along! Yes, the Helicoil seems like a more >>>>> robust solution, I agree. >>>>> >>>>> Jason: Noted! If only Riv would bring back those beefy headset presses >>>>> they got a super limited run of a few years ago. Never need one but... >>>>> they >>>>> seemed awesome. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 8:21:45 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Eric, you've *got* to get a DAG alignment tool! The heavy steel >>>>>> one, avoid the new lighter one. It's a must have for the home mechanic of >>>>>> fine steel frames that do not have replaceable hangers. I use it every >>>>>> time the derailleur is pulled off for any reason, or if I'm having any >>>>>> stubborn shifting issue - it's amazing how often it's just because the >>>>>> alignment was out slightly. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 12:17:13 UTC-7 George Schick wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This is one of the more interesting posts/threads having to do with >>>>>>> bike repairs that has come along in awhile (with no intention to >>>>>>> downplay >>>>>>> the unfortunate accident!). I like the final post about a Helicoil or >>>>>>> dropout saver recommendation. My own preference would likely be the >>>>>>> Helicoil because you have to tap in new larger diameter threads in >>>>>>> order to >>>>>>> install the coil, which seems like it would stabilize the damaged hanger >>>>>>> better. Having view the dropout saver at the Wheels Mfg. website, I'm >>>>>>> not >>>>>>> sure how well that would work in this case. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 1:21:37 PM UTC-5 eric...@gmail.com >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Further ideas: Antonio at Riv suggested getting a Helicoil tool in >>>>>>>> the M10x1.0 size to repair the bolt hole. Brian Chapman recommended >>>>>>>> installing a Wheels Mfg. dropout saver. Either would attempt to repair >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> bolt hole. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I'm open to trying either of those fixes as well. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 2:17:55 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks for the replies, everyone. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> A few asked about the chain jumping/skipping/slipping. When the >>>>>>>>> chain is under load it slips or clunks repeatedly. It's kind of like >>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>> you're in the wrong gear and you need to trim the gear to get it >>>>>>>>> right. But >>>>>>>>> no amount of trimming is fixing the issue. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I've tried three different derailers, same problem. The cassette >>>>>>>>> was new in summer of 2022 and I haven't ridden in the three big gears >>>>>>>>> enough to wear out the teeth of the cogs. It's an S-Ride 7s from >>>>>>>>> Rivendell, >>>>>>>>> it's an 11-32. The crank is the same age, installed last summer. >>>>>>>>> SunXCD >>>>>>>>> crank with TA Specialites rings, 42/26. I don't see any issues with >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> wheel (it's running true) or with worn cassette or chainring teeth. >>>>>>>>> Also no >>>>>>>>> play in the freehub body. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The elongated hole: It could be the derailer is flexing in the >>>>>>>>> hole, hard to determine this off the bike. Derailer seems seated when >>>>>>>>> I try >>>>>>>>> to move it around in my hand, doesn't wobble. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I have *not yet* tried installing a different wheel and cassette. >>>>>>>>> That will be next. Should have tried that *much* earlier in the >>>>>>>>> process. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:57:01 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Oops, I just noticed Stephen had already made the point about the >>>>>>>>>> derailleur possibly wiggling in the hole. Yes— what Stephen said. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jim >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:52:54 AM UTC-4 Jim Whorton >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Even though it’s threading in smoothly, I wonder if that >>>>>>>>>>> elongated hole is the problem. Wonder if that bolt is moving under >>>>>>>>>>> tension. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I’m not a bike mechanic by any means but I did spring for the >>>>>>>>>>> Park Derailleur Hanger Alignment Gauge awhile back and I’m glad. I >>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>> used it on old frames and on a new Riv frame I built up recently. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On YouTube, RJ the Bike Guy has a good video on building a >>>>>>>>>>> homemade dropout alignment gauge, also useful: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsU8IkkFaok >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jim in Rochester, NY >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 11:08:28 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.jensonusa.com/Wolf-Tooth-Hanger-Alignment-Tool >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 10:41:54 AM UTC-4 Stephen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey Eric, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Been loosely following along. Glad you were ok in the accident >>>>>>>>>>>>> but sheesh, what a bummer it did so much damage. Id vote along >>>>>>>>>>>>> with others >>>>>>>>>>>>> for getting a hanger alignment tool, or figuring out how to make >>>>>>>>>>>>> one for >>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself. i bought a wolf tooth variety ( i prefer the way it >>>>>>>>>>>>> references to >>>>>>>>>>>>> the hub vs rim) not too long ago and dont regret the investment. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I bought >>>>>>>>>>>>> after knocking my appaloosa over on the drive side. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I will say i am curious too whether there might be something >>>>>>>>>>>>> else going on to cause the skipping.. when my hanger was bent it >>>>>>>>>>>>> was only >>>>>>>>>>>>> noticeable that when in my biggest cassette ring the derailer >>>>>>>>>>>>> would go into >>>>>>>>>>>>> the wheel. may depend on what way its bended. I’m curious if the >>>>>>>>>>>>> derailer >>>>>>>>>>>>> may have any wiggle in the elongated hole. have you tried subbing >>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>> another derailer or chain to test the system? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I encourage you to keep trying to solve on your own before >>>>>>>>>>>>> reaching the final solution of frame repair or sending cross >>>>>>>>>>>>> country, which >>>>>>>>>>>>> would be time consuming and expensive. I can’t imagine what >>>>>>>>>>>>> antonio or mark >>>>>>>>>>>>> would do that you or someone more experienced on the east coast >>>>>>>>>>>>> couldnt >>>>>>>>>>>>> achieve. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -stephen >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thursday, August 3, 2023 at 9:33:06 AM UTC-4 CJ wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you elaborate on "the chain skips"? A misaligned >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derailleur hanger will cause shifting to be sub-optimal, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unless the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hanger is so bent that the derailleur is way, way out of whack, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it can't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> make the chain skip. Skipping chains are caused by worn or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> damaged chains >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and/or cogs. Have you checked your cassette cogs for damage? Try >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a new >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain and cassette? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Another thing to check, are your dropouts aligned? Is the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wheel still sitting straight in the frame? Dropout alignment >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools are nice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to have, but pricey and you shouldn't need them often. You can >>>>>>>>>>>>>> improvise >>>>>>>>>>>>>> with threaded rod and a handful of hardware. Google is your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> friend. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you own multiple bikes, you should own a derailleur hanger >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alignment tool. I have an inexpensive "Cyclospirit" one, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's paid for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> itself many times over. It's maybe a little more fiddly to use >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> expensive, name-brand tool, but it works. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CJ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:20:22 PM UTC-4 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eric...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, some mild updates. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've bent and tweaked the hanger with crescent wrenches at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> least two dozen times now. Worked on it during the miserable >>>>>>>>>>>>>> heat wave here >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and during nicer weather yesterday. During the process I remove >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the derailer, tweak the hanger, re-install the chain and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derailer, test >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ride. Repeat. Over and over! Every time I ride the bike the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain skips. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've tried aligning by hand and eye. I've used a series of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> straight edges, trying to reference off the cassette to the face >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derailer hanger where the derailer sits. I can get the straight >>>>>>>>>>>>>> edges into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> plane with one another but evidently that's not enough because >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the chain >>>>>>>>>>>>>> still jumps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel like I can finesse this thing back into working order >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but I have so far been unsuccessful. The hanger is relatively >>>>>>>>>>>>>> flat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> considering how mangled it got. It's considerably better than it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> was. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bolt hole is elongated but fortunately derailer bolts screw in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> nicely and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the threads feel good. Through all my uninstalling/reinstalling >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bolts >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thread in nicely each time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> One problem is that the guys at the LBS have put their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> dropout and hanger alignment tools on the bike and they say the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> tools show >>>>>>>>>>>>>> things are aligned. *But* they are also audibly and visibly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> weary of putting too much torque on the hanger and seem to think >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to shear off the frame if they look at it funny. I don't think >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to happen. I talked to Grant about this twice now and he doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that's going to happen, either. He shared an acedote wherein he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bent a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derailer hanger through 180º of motion several times before the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hanger >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sheared off. I'm not moving mine nearly as much, just a bit at a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. And >>>>>>>>>>>>>> today I heard Grant Petersen say "Steel is magical." So I'm >>>>>>>>>>>>>> adding that to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> my lifetime book of memorable quotes by notable people. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's another shop in town but I get bad vibes every time I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> go in there so I'm going to spare myself and stay away. I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> if I go in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> there it'll end up being a bad scene and I'll regret it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm open to having a builder try to align the hanger, heat it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up and shape it or braze a new dropout onto the frame. But the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> builder I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> know and have worked with before on three other bikes (this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hillborne >>>>>>>>>>>>>> included) has sold his tools and retired. Two other nearby >>>>>>>>>>>>>> builders haven't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> returned my messages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Now I'm thinking the best next step is to drop > $100 on a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> derailer hanger alignment tool and try it myself in the home >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shop. Looking >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at the Park Tool DAG 2.2. This eliminates the hesitancy of other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mechanics >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (I'm not afraid to wreck the bike) and gives me a useful tool to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> forever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Full options going forward (as I see them, open to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> suggestions as always): >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself until I'm satisfied or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I give up and advance to next option >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Take it to a shop >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Go-to shop seems afraid to break my hanger, I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> think that's going to happen but they are audibly and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> visibly weary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Other shop in town I avoid at all costs and don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> want to take my bikes to them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Get a new dropout welded onto the bike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - I wouldn't mind doing this but I can't find a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> builder in my area >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Contacted three people. One retired, the other two >>>>>>>>>>>>>> haven't responded. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Send it to Rivendell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Grant thinks Mark or Antonio can fix the hanger. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Cool! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Grant said to send the bike stripped down, no fork. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How are they going to align and test it to see if the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> chain jumps? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - I don't reaaaally want to freight the bike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> coast-to-coast twice. Not a dealbreaker, tho. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Grant said if Mark or Antonio can't get it he knows >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a builder who can do the repair but it could be three >>>>>>>>>>>>>> months before I get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the bike back. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - This leads me back to... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Buy a gauge and adjust it myself >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you've made it this far, wow, you are invested in this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> repair! Thanks for checking in. I'll post more updates as they >>>>>>>>>>>>>> develop. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, August 2, 2023 at 11:03:10 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, Ryan. Yes, I think the cost for the repair would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reasonable. I worry the cost to freight the frame would be a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> little painful >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the time without the bike could be considerable depending on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shakes out. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poster is the MTB countryside illustration, same >>>>>>>>>>>>>> illustrator who did yours. "Get away fast on a Bridgestone" or >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>> like that. Hills, dirt road, country church. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 7:36:10 AM UTC-4 Ryan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yikes! That is too bad but I'm glad you weren't hurt. I know >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you are very ingenious, but maybe the frame needs to be sent to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Riv for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> repair? Who will no doubt do the repair at a reasonable cost >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which poster? I have the "saddle up on a bridgestone"...my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> favorite of the Grant-inspired ones...the one with the rider on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a roadbike >>>>>>>>>>>>>> alongside a galloping horse. Can't remember if I bought it from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Rivendell >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or from a friend of mine who built many of my wheels and at one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> time was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bridgestone dealer and sold me my 1993 X0-1 that I still have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, August 1, 2023 at 4:55:39 AM UTC-5 R. Alexis >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That does not look good. Maybe once you get it into a stand >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and carefully remove the derailleur and gently realign the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hanger you will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> be fine. The rear der pully cage can probably be bent back into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shape. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Issue is probably trusting it. Hope things work out. Glad you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> were not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hurt. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reginald Alexis >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, July 23, 2023 at 2:13:02 PM UTC-5 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> eric...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hey gang — I was out for a Sunday ride and stopped to take a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> picture. I rolled to the side of the road and did not see the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> culvert, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hidden with fresh grass clippings. I tumbled over at low speed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm fine! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> When I stood up I noticed my drive-side bar end shifter had >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rotated 90º. And my derailer hanger and the derailer were bent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I spun the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> crank while off the bike and it seemed to move okay so I thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd give >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it a go as a single speed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I pedaled for a few strokes, then nudged the shifter. It was >>>>>>>>>>>>>> at that time the derailer turned upside down and inside out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bending into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the spokes and throwing the chain. It was really fun! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> [image: Screenshot 2023-07-23 at 3.05.28 PM.png] >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is my Hillborne, my most-ridden bike. I'll see if the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hanger can be bent but I have a feeling it will require some >>>>>>>>>>>>>> work from a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> frame builder. That's a Suntour Cyclone. Fortunately I have five >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of them >>>>>>>>>>>>>> (including this one). You might recall the cage tension spring >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in my >>>>>>>>>>>>>> previous Cyclone recently failed. This is one of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> replacements I picked >>>>>>>>>>>>>> up. It was in excellent shape but now it's going to the salvage >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bin. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I was waiting for a ride four people stopped to ask if >>>>>>>>>>>>>> they could help me. One was a cyclist who said "You need >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything?" I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> replied "I need derailer hanger, a rear mech and a welding >>>>>>>>>>>>>> torch!" >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hope your weekend rides weren't so mechanically eventful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8cf3f482-9e7f-462b-ae6e-edbb2ff65c52n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/8cf3f482-9e7f-462b-ae6e-edbb2ff65c52n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/303d40dc-f5fd-4f2f-90ea-b61a86c15607n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/303d40dc-f5fd-4f2f-90ea-b61a86c15607n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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