I prefer the look of a quill stem for most bikes, but I will admit that a threadless stem will never get rusted/corroded into a steerer tube. I've had this problem on several bikes in recent years--one is still stuck--despite the liberal use of grease to try to keep sweat and water out.
--Eric N www.campyonly.com On Sep 9, 2012, at 10:28 PM, cyclotourist <[email protected]> wrote: > Jim, a very thoughtful posting! Thanks for taking the time to write it up. > > I grew up w/ quill stems, but prefer threadless. I have found installation is > incredibly easy. I've never enjoyed tightening threaded headsets, so > threadless have been a pleasure to work with. Also I don't really care for > the tall backwards "7" look of quill stems at saddle height. They look > ungainly to me. It's also a big chunk of angled metal pointing at my crotch > which I don't appreciate for unintended dismounts. > > Downsides are 1-1/8 threadless not really looking elegant with road tubing, > and 1" threadless is next to non-existent. Threadless also looks kinda' silly > with 50mm+ of spacers on a poorly designed bike. The strength/lack of flex > isn't really a bonus as I've never noticed a quill stem flexing on me. > > So yeah, long/short: I'd like a Taiwanese built budget Riv country bike > (think AHH) w/ threadless and a single top tube for $750 or whatever the San > Marcos goes for. I don't know if there are enough people in that niche to > build one though, or if GP would even want to go after them. > > Would be a cool bike though! > > > On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 11:39 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery > <[email protected]> wrote: > I agree that quill stems are a niche that Riv fills, more or less > exclusively, which is no small thing. Obviously, the quill stem has a > modest-sized but loyal following, and Grant would be smart to keep filling > this niche, as long as it exists, all by himself. > > On the other hand, think about demographics. I'm 35 - most cyclists my age or > younger have little or no nostalgia for quill stems and threaded steerers, > and, in fact, may think a quill looks funny or archaic compared to more > familiar threadless systems. If you're over 50, then you probably came of age > as a cyclist in the quill stem era, and are not planning to change. But if > you're over 50, your bike purchases are likely to slow down in the next 10-20 > years, if they haven't already, while people my age and younger are just > ramping up the new bike spending. Obviously, this is loose speculation, and > individual situations vary. But I think it's safe to say that the number of > people who prefer quill stems, and are willing to pay extra to get a frame > that takes a quill stem, is shrinking, not growing/stabilizing. I have no > stats to back this up, just a limited view from my own knothole. > > Of course, Riv already makes a bunch of frame models that take a quill stem. > If one frame model out of eight stepped outside the lines a bit, in the > interest of cutting costs, making the frame sturdier without a double top > tube, and being more accommodating to a much wider variety of contemporary > stems, bars, and headsets (more versatility!), I imagine that the result > would be broader appeal and new customers. That particular model with the > (for example) disc tabs and 1-1/8" threadless steerer might not be the > "retro-grouch" ideal of many on this discussion board, but there are lots of > other options for the purists. And there's no reason whatsoever that such a > frame couldn't adhere to underlying principles, like good tire/fender > clearance, higher handlebars (it can be done with good design in a non-ugly > way), and, of course, lovely lugged steel with a cool paintjob. > > I started following Riv when there were basically two models: the heavy duty > Atlantis, and the lightweight Rambouillet/Romulus/Redwood. It seemed easy to > distinguish the two, and I had one of each for awhile. I have enjoyed seeing > the proliferation of new models, but frankly, it starts to get a little > bewildering to me - imagine how the casual observer must feel when trying to > make sense of it! The Hillborne was supposed to be a halfway compromise of > the Atlantis and the Hilsen, I think, but those two models weren't altogether > dissimilar in terms of tire clearance and general capabilities (the Hilsen > moniker replaced the Saluki which was billed as partway between Atlantis and > Rambouillet). The Bombadil is the new heavy-duty workhorse offroader (which > was the Atlantis role, previously), but the Hunqapillar splits the difference > between that and the Atlantis. Do I have that right? How much difference is > there to split? There have been discussions of what sets the Roadeo apart > from the Hilsen, but it seems the differences are minor. It gets hard to see > where one model stops and the next begins. Now to add yet another heavy-duty > touring bike to the mix? Is there really a hungry market for a slightly less > fancy version of the Hunqapillar that won't cannibalize Hunqapillar sales? Or > should this new "budget" model be a substantially different bike that reaches > out to a whole new crowd without competing with existing models? > > I'm sorry for rambling about all this. Sometimes it rubs people the wrong way > that I say stuff that isn't 100% Riv cheerleading (I've been told by two > other list participants to put a cork in it over the years), but I'm not > trying to damage Riv or criticize anybody for liking what he or she likes. I > enjoy the sharing of different ideas. Amazing that there's so much to discuss > (ad nauseum) about these machines! > > > > On Thursday, September 6, 2012 7:25:54 PM UTC-5, ted wrote: > It may be a cost saver as you suspect, but I hope they never go that > route. > I value the easy upping and downing of a quill stem, and not being > bound to earlier choices by having cut a threadless steerer tube. > Threaded forks and quill stems are one of the differentiators that > make RBW a company I am glad is in business. > Other companies are already making good bikes at lower price points, > so if you want to choose a bike made with some more economical methods > (e.g. threadless, tig welded, ...) choose one of them and be happy. > (naturally we are overlooking the threadless option on the Rodeo, > which seems to be a rare concession to gram counters, inner racer > aversion to otherness, and broader selection of available stems) > > I don't mean to be scolding. I just like what RBW does, and I would > rather they stay with it than get more like other companies. > > On Sep 6, 4:45 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <[email protected]> > wrote: > > I have been scolded for discussing such heresy in the past, but the most > > obvious cost savings I can think of for Riv frames would be to switch from > > threaded to threadless steerers. With threadless, one fork fits all frames. > > With threaded, each frame size takes a different fork. This means extra > > forks must be stocked in each size for warranty replacements, etc, plus, I > > assume, making 4 or 5 different forks in smaller quantities is more > > expensive than making one fork in a larger quantity. Obviously, I don't > > know how the threaded-fork penalty compares to the other costs in frame > > production, but I wouldn't be surprised if it adds $100+ to each frameset > > at the retail level. I don't have experience with 2TT or diagonal tube > > frames, but I do have experience to suggest a 1-1/8" threadless system > > feels MUCH sturdier under load than does a bike with a 1" threaded system > > on otherwise similar frames. > > > > As for disc brakes, I prefer the way hydraulics feel and self-adjust, but > > sometimes sacrificing the drop bar is too much, so I go mechanical. The > > good ones all work, when set up properly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, September 6, 2012 6:29:35 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote: > > > > > This thread started out talking about a "budget Riv...". I realize > > > it's hard to see how a few extra tabs, etc., to handle discs could > > > impact the cost too much, and of course Rivs come with plenty of ways > > > to hang on racks & fenders. However, I heard Dave Moulton speak > > > (years ago when he was still building frames) and he made the point > > > that it was difficult to justify to his customers the additional cost > > > for adding various eyelets, rack mounts, etc., that tourists demand & > > > racers don't. More fiddly bits can really up the cost a surprising > > > amount. > > > > > If Grant decided to add disc brake fittings, I would expect it to be > > > on the $2,000 frames, esp. the Atlantis & Bombadil. I've only ridden > > > disc braked bikes a couple of times and was impressed. My Atlantis > > > now has V-brakes (replaced Tektro 720 cantis) which I like a lot but > > > would go for a disc brake option. Braking changes a lot when you load > > > up the bike with its own weight & go whistling down long hills. > > > > > Of course, Riv went thru a big inventory reduction end of last year, > > > so I wouldn't look for them to embrace stocking yet another kind of > > > hub, brake, levers, etc., plus the frame redesign work to offer > > > discs. In any case, it's always fun to speculate The Next Big > > > Thing. > > > > > dougP > > > > > On Sep 6, 10:29 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <[email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > It's certainly true that there's seldom, if ever, a "screaming need for > > > > discs". But we're pretty far down the road past "screaming need" for > > > > ANY > > > of > > > > the gadgetry we chat about in this forum. I personally know a number of > > > > people who do not consider worthwhile any bike innovation that isn't > > > > included on a 1950s English 3sp. I've ridden old 3-speeds plenty, and I > > > see > > > > the charm, but occasionally I think the technologies developed over the > > > > ensuing half-century have earned a place in my 21st Century > > > bicycle-centric > > > > life. > > > > > > IMO, a sturdy, fat-tire Riv with capability to handle BOTH > > > > cantilevers/v-brakes and discs would be a neat thing - sort of a > > > prettier > > > > functional-equivalent to the Surly Troll or Ogre. I think it would > > > broaden > > > > the appeal to potential customers who appreciate Riv's aesthetic > > > stylings > > > > and general approach, but aren't committed to using the same types of > > > parts > > > > mountain bikers were stuck with 25 years ago. Obviously, the true retro > > > > connoisseurs will scoff at the superfluous disc brake tabs they'd never > > > use > > > > in a million years, but the scoffers will be offset by those who'll > > > embrace > > > > the added versatility. I count myself among the "embracers of > > > versatility", > > > > by the way. > > > > > > I'm not saying disc brakes are 100% necessary at all, but some > > > concession > > > > to modernity and, more importantly, diversity in the product line, > > > > would > > > > seem to be a good thing for Riv. Otherwise, it seems like we'll have > > > > another heavy-duty Riv frame that competes for the same seemingly > > > limited > > > > pool of customers who are considering the Atlantis, Hunqapillar, > > > Bombadil, > > > > Hillborne, etc. Something as simple as disc tabs would be a standout > > > among > > > > the excellent, but overlapping frames that are already available, and > > > > would, I think, make a splash among a whole new pool of potential > > > customers. > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 4:04:45 PM UTC-5, Matthew J wrote: > > > > > > > Seems to me for a budget bike that is almost certainly would be > > > heavier > > > > > than the upmarket Rivs, discs will mean extra weight and expense with > > > > > little benefit for most riders. > > > > > > > Most people ride on pavement or hard pack trails and then usually > > > > > when > > > the > > > > > weather is fine. In those conditions, decent rim brakes provide all > > > the > > > > > stopping power any rider will ever need. Some ride on pavement in > > > inclement > > > > > weather where discs have some advantages over rims. But not so much > > > that > > > > > there is a screaming need for discs. > > > > > > > Discs are markedly better off road and on long distance adventure > > > > > touring. Neither Riv's niche. > > > > > > > On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 12:42:00 PM UTC-5, Jim Thill - > > > Hiawatha > > > > > Cyclery wrote: > > > > > > >> It seems moderately necessary to point out that there's nothing > > > specific > > > > >> to a frame that's made for hydraulic disc brakes that is different > > > than on > > > > >> a frame made for cable disc brakes. Therefore, IF Riv makes a bike > > > for disc > > > > >> brakes, which seems only a tiny bit likely IMO, there's no need for > > > any of > > > > >> us to be forced into one type of brake or another. > > > > > > >> I like hydraulic brakes. I've been using several models of Avid > > > > >> hydraulics for about 3 years now, and I've never had one single > > > problem > > > > >> with them. They are, for all practical purposes, self-adjusting and > > > never > > > > >> seem to make any superfluous noise. It is true, however, that using > > > > >> hydraulic brakes does limit brake lever options. Think of the > > > hydraulic > > > > >> brake/lever as a single unit, rather than the mix and match > > > experience of > > > > >> cable-actuated systems. This is a mix-and-match-centric group, I > > > realize. > > > > > > >> On Tuesday, September 4, 2012 9:37:17 PM UTC-5, Montclair BobbyB > > > wrote: > > > > > > >>> Or hydraulic brakes... I've been riding both cable and hydraulic > > > disc > > > > >>> brakes for years, and I'm here to tell you, hydraulic Shimano's > > > > >>> (the > > > older > > > > >>> style) are the bee's knees... I've never had issues with busted > > > brake lines > > > > >>> or poor performance... They're easy to maintain and super > > > dependable, way > > > > >>> more dependable than rim brakes! And even the best-adjusted > > > cable-actuated > > > > >>> disc brakes can't come close to the hydraulics. The price has come > > > way > > > > >>> down on hydraulic brakes... there are few reasons left to go with > > > cable > > > > >>> discs... I've been running them on my mountain bikes for years in > > > all kinds > > > > >>> of rought weather conditions (including ice and snow). THEY STOP > > > > >>> in > > > all > > > > >>> kinds of weather! > > > > > > >>> I'd love to see a disc version Rivendell...although I fear it would > > > > >>> require a beefier fork (for the forces applied to the lower section > > > of the > > > > >>> fork). This might be a challenge to make a beefier fork that looks > > > > >>> elegant. Then again, I'll bet it's possible to preserve the beauty > > > in a > > > > >>> disc version.. Wes Williams (for example) makes a beautifully > > > > >>> curved > > > 29er > > > > >>> disc fork (the Willits WOW). I love the look of rim brakes, but > > > > >>> performance wise there's simply no contest between rim and disc > > > brakes. > > > > > > >>> Peace, > > > > >>> BB > > > > > > >>> On Monday, September 3, 2012 5:53:11 PM UTC-4, James Warren wrote: > > > > > > >>>> I would like it if this bike were made ready for disc brakes. > > > > >>>> Mechanical ones.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/P8M2bAG0GtwJ. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > > > -- > Cheers, > David > Redlands, CA > > ** > "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in > it." -- Neil deGrasse Tyson. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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