My opinion is that CMP4 did what they did with 690.12 from the very beginning in 2014 because the vast majority of PV systems are direct grid-tie in the city or suburbs. Off-grid systems......us one-percenters who live and do solar in remote areas..... we are not even on their radar.
Just to beat that dead horse again that myself and Ray and others have hit for so long, if the regulations and therefore costs get too prohibitive, our customers creatively seek ways to avoid them. A RS shutdown system that costs a customer more than the 3-4 PV modules and racking is likely a no-go on their checkbook. Example from long ago....1989 NFPA 74 required all smoke detectors to be interconnected, so that if one sounded an alarm, all the others did. Actually a good idea. But off the grid in small systems, those smoke detectors are 120VAC and keep the inverter awake, out of sleep (search) mode 24/7/365, for a little hunting cabin that's only occupied a couple months out of the year. Only the mice and packrats would hear the alarm. SO......they install those 120VAC interconnected smoke detectors to get their CO, then after the inspector leaves they immediately rip them out and sell for salvage, stub off the 120VAC wiring so the inverter will sleep when they are away, and install battery smoke detectors. I'm not judging or admitting anything......I'm observing what goes on in the real off-grid world. It ain't the big city, that's for sure. Dan Fink Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute IREC Certified Instructor™ for: ~ PV Installation Professional ~ Small Wind Installer Executive Director, Buckville Energy NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™ NABCEP Associate 970.672.4342 On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 12:11 PM, cwarfel <[email protected]> wrote: > Thanks Ray, I am sure the moderator will let me know if this is off > topic, but I would be willing to help organize a petition drive to repeal this > part of the NEC and because there are good reasons. Not because it's > "inconvenient". Long time manufacturers, who historically produced safe > and high quality product(s) are being harmed by this language, which in > turn, benefited others. Safety is not necessarily increased. I feel CMP > 4 got hijacked focusing on this issue. There has been good reorganization > and integration of 690 with other Articles, but RS is not reflective of > this effort. Just the labeling requirements show that. > > There is a lot of focus on resiliency and the NEC increased the cost and > did not improve the safety of DC coupled multimode systems. So instead > of incorporating the roof resource that could be used to meet resiliency > goals, we are taking roofs out of some design considerations, and increasing > the costs for the other options. > > Chris > > On 7/6/2018 1:32 PM, Ray wrote: > > Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that > wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able to > meet the 2019 requirements. However beware: they as of yet still don't > have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller > which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They > have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4 spaces, so > with multiple charge controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast. > > I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it to > pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 > code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid. There really > should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc. > Fire fighters are not going to get there till the structure is down > anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with > volunteer fire departments. Its not like in town at all; no one is going > to go on the roof on an off grid fire. > > On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping of > 690.12 equipment. Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid > it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating systems > in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing > machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on their roof > multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance trips. > Are we going to wait until we get someone killed in the name of "Safety" > before we fix this? > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > 303 505-8760 > > On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote: > > I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled > multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I feel > is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is > 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled > combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we parallel > more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher amperage!). > Thanks for any insight. > > Chris > > > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] <http://entech-engineering.com> > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & > settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- > > Christopher Warfel, PE > ENTECH Engineering, Inc. > PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807 > (401)466-8978 > > [image: EEI logo] <http://entech-engineering.com> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]. > org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > >
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