I must agree spent quite a bit of time trying to figure WTF over. Then i saw it was an architect design. He must have been paying himself cause I have no idea why someone would want to try to integrate all this stuff while the tech support had nothing to say but; "that won’t work”. Hope for your sake it was T&M. T > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:25 PM, Jeff Clearwater <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Vince and All, > > Loving this insightful discussion on the technical subtleties of this set-up > - but I'm wondering if I'm missing the Why? What is this design trying to > accomplish? What were the overriding design drivers? > > Is it a case of incremental design where one system needed to grow but a > separate system was added? Are they physically close to each other? > > Are you trying to leverage the outputs so the loads have the advantage of > both outputs simultaneously? > > If you solve this one AC coupling cut-out issue - is the system then > optimized and exactly what does that optimization accomplish? > > I understand if you don't want to take the time to explain all this but I'm > just curious - is there a useful architecture out there that I'm missing? > > Can the PV and battery resources be combined into one system? - (perhaps by > selling the AGMs and Radian and buying more lithium and Sol-Arks?) > > Seems like control and fine tuning and troubleshooting ongoing would be a > hassle with such complexity - but then again we sometimes work with what we > got! > > As Nick said - they are lucky to have you! Question is how to best serve > that design! > > Best, > > Jeff >> Vince McClellan <mailto:[email protected]> January 20, 2022 at >> 10:32 AM >> Thanks again for your input. I'll check the Blue Ion battery voltage the >> next time on site with and without the Radian AC coupled. I'm also going to >> check in with Sol-Ark and see if the inverters respond to high battery >> voltage when they are in closed loop with the BMS on the battery. I've >> always assumed that the Sol-Ark's software just responds to the SOC from the >> BMS. >> That would be a possible connection between the freq-watt function on the >> Sol-Ark and DC power from the solar array. I was really scratching my head >> on where the possible connection could be between incoming DC power and the >> freq-watt function on the Sol-Arks. >> >> Vince McClellan >> Energy Design >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> p. (541) 485-8122 <tel:%28541%29%20485-8122> f. (541) 338-8202 >> <tel:%28541%29%20338-8202> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please >> delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of >> this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> Pieter Huebner <mailto:[email protected]> January 20, 2022 at >> 6:41 AM >> Vince, Although you have an AC bussed connection, the issue may not be the >> opposite as ours. In Our case the battery buss voltage goes high when the >> solar array is enabled. If you are also experiencing DC buss excursions you >> can trigger frequency shifting. If you haven't already done so, I suggest >> that you closely monitor the battery voltage when the solar array is >> charging both with and without the Radian AC bussing connected. >> Pieter >> >> <image.png> >> >> From: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> On Behalf Of Vince >> McClellan >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:16 PM >> To: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues >> >> Thanks Pieter >> We seem to have the opposite problem from what you are experiencing. Our >> freq-watt regulation of the Radian inverter by the Sol-Ark inverters seems >> to be actuated by the DC power from the solar array that is DC connected to >> the Sol-Ark inverters. It is supposed to be actuated by the SOC of the Blue >> Ion batteries, but that is inconsistent at best. We can turn the DC power >> from the solar array on on the master inverter, but when we try using the >> MPPT channels on the two other inverters it briefly actuates the freq-watt >> function of the Sol-Ark disconnecting the Radian inverter. >> >> Vince McClellan >> Energy Design >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> p. (541) 485-8122 <tel:%28541%29%20485-8122> f. (541) 338-8202 >> <tel:%28541%29%20338-8202> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please >> delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of >> this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 8:20 PM Pieter Huebner >> <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> Vince McClellan <mailto:[email protected]> January 19, 2022 at >> 9:15 PM >> Thanks Pieter >> We seem to have the opposite problem from what you are experiencing. Our >> freq-watt regulation of the Radian inverter by the Sol-Ark inverters seems >> to be actuated by the DC power from the solar array that is DC connected to >> the Sol-Ark inverters. It is supposed to be actuated by the SOC of the Blue >> Ion batteries, but that is inconsistent at best. We can turn the DC power >> from the solar array on on the master inverter, but when we try using the >> MPPT channels on the two other inverters it briefly actuates the freq-watt >> function of the Sol-Ark disconnecting the Radian inverter. >> >> Vince McClellan >> Energy Design >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> p. (541) 485-8122 <tel:%28541%29%20485-8122> f. (541) 338-8202 >> <tel:%28541%29%20338-8202> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please >> delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of >> this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> Pieter Huebner <mailto:[email protected]> January 19, 2022 at >> 8:20 PM >> Vince, For what it is worth: >> We have also been working on similar issues when using multiple Solark >> inverters connected in parallel. The issue has been that parallel Solark >> inverters don't seem to be able to properly regulate the battery charge >> voltage. Although Solark technical support has been outstanding, and with >> their help we have diminished the severity but not solved the issue. For >> the sites that we currently have deployed for the interim we had to resort >> to turning down the charge voltage set points in order to protect the >> Lithium batteries. and avoid BMS shutdowns. We have a client with an >> existing outback system and were planning to expand the existing system >> using AC bussed Solark 12K inverters with additional battery and solar >> capacity (the site is 100% off grid, and has evolved into a micro grid), but >> are now going a different direction. Although we have not yet attempted an >> AC bussed Solark system, I suspect that the issues you are having are >> related to the battery voltage regulation problem we have experienced. >> Pieter >> <image.png> >> >> >> From: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> On Behalf Of Vince >> McClellan >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2022 5:16 PM >> To: RE-wrenches <[email protected]> >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues >> >> Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters? >> >> We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to a new >> system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue Ion >> batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark inverters accept >> the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on the DC power from the >> new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As soon as there is significant DC >> power coming from the solar array the Sol-Ark inverters freq-watt turns on >> for a brief second and disconnects the Radian inverter even when the Blue >> Ion batteries are below the programmed state of charge threshold. If we >> don't turn on the DC power from the new solar array the Radian will connect >> and stay connected. >> >> We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this system >> to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt kicking in on >> the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian inverter. Sol-Ark has >> sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark inverters and we are still >> experiencing the same problem. >> >> Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our >> troubleshooting efforts next? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Vince McClellan >> Energy Design >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> p. (541) 485-8122 <tel:%28541%29%20485-8122> f. (541) 338-8202 >> <tel:%28541%29%20338-8202> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please >> delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of >> this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> >> Vince McClellan <mailto:[email protected]> January 19, 2022 at >> 3:15 PM >> Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters? >> >> We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to a new >> system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue Ion >> batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark inverters accept >> the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on the DC power from the >> new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As soon as there is significant DC >> power coming from the solar array the Sol-Ark inverters freq-watt turns on >> for a brief second and disconnects the Radian inverter even when the Blue >> Ion batteries are below the programmed state of charge threshold. If we >> don't turn on the DC power from the new solar array the Radian will connect >> and stay connected. >> >> We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this system >> to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt kicking in on >> the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian inverter. Sol-Ark has >> sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark inverters and we are still >> experiencing the same problem. >> >> Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our >> troubleshooting efforts next? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Vince McClellan >> Energy Design >> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >> p. (541) 485-8122 <tel:%28541%29%20485-8122> f. (541) 338-8202 >> <tel:%28541%29%20338-8202> >> >> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please >> delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of >> this email is strictly prohibited. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> <http://re-wrenches.org/> >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]> >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> >> > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > <http://re-wrenches.org/> > > List Address: [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]> > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > <https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org> > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > <http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm> > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org <http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/> > Tump > <blocked::mailto:[email protected]%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::mailto:[email protected]>[email protected] > www.SWNL.net > <blocked::http://www.swnl.net/%22%20%5Co%20%22blocked::http://www.swnl.net/> > Solarwinds Northernlights > Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > > Blair "TUMP" May > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer" > > ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" >
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