Hi Ray Good to hear from you. The Radian is set up to see the power on the Sol-Ark inverters as the grid and feed back to it with the Sol-Arks set up to go into freg-watt function when the Blue Ion batteries are close to full. In theory this should work, and does, until the Sol-Ark goes into freq-watt before the batteries are full. When power from the new solar array that is connected to the MPPT inputs on the Sol-Ark inverters goes above some threshold it sends the Sol-Arks into freq-watt mode. I'm talking with both Blue Planet Energy and Sol-Ark about this issue. Thanks to folks on the wrenches list that have chimed in on this thread we have way more things to look for as causal for why this happens and fix the problem.
Thanks as always for your input on the list, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 6:43 PM jay <[email protected]> wrote: > HI Vince, > > Thanks > > I’m still a bit confused as to exactly which way the radian is working or > what exactly its job is? > > Are the sol-arks sending power to the radian or is the radian sending > power to the sol-arks? > It appears that there is no solar, only batteries on the Radian, so its > got to charge them up some how, or maybe the grid is doing that? > > If its actually installed so its trying to AC couple to the Sol-Ark > outputs, that won’t work for a number of reasons. 1. You can’t regulate > the output of the radian so it might to try fill the whole load, which will > cause it to overload if its beyond the 8kw. ( heck its hard enough with > same OEM equipment to get them to balance) 2. if the loads are small, then > the Radian might battery charge from the Sol-arks, which I’m guessing that > relay is the high battery cut off device? Which means it’ll be turned > on/off randomly and not a very good battery charging for LA. 3. It will > try to frequency shift if you have that feature turned on. 4. I’m sure > there are a few others that I can come up with. > > Let us know exactly what this radian is trying to do so we can see if > there is fix/work around without reinventing the wheel. > > jay > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Vince McClellan <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Jay > Thanks for taking the time to read the schematic and look into the > potential issues. Never again will I let a client drive the design on a > project. My client is a high level architect with an amazing attention to > detail and he drove the design by doing his own research and coming back to > us with why don't we do this thing so that... fill in the details. > We did look into the interaction between the Radian inverter and the > Sol-Ark inverters on the AC side before we built the system. Tech support > thought that the Radian would see the power on the homes wiring as the grid > and "sell" back to the Sol-Arks. However the question that you bring up has > been a question in my mind this whole time. > > The reason that we aren't connecting the Radian's AC output on the gen > breakers on the Sol-Ark is complicated. Basically the techs at Sol-Ark told > us that it wouldn't work properly with what we are trying to accomplish. > Our client also wanted to be able to charge the Radian's batteries off of > the Sol-Arks power in off grid mode for instance. > > The Blue Ion's do seem to have good data connection to the Sol-Ark > inverters though the Namaka, but I have seen the Sol-Arks display battery > voltage instead of SOC for brief moments of time on the Sol-Ark display. I > will check the Blue Ion battery voltage to check for a voltage spike from > the solar arrays DC input the next time I'm on site as several folks have > mentioned. > > These are all great questions and I really appreciate all the thought that > has gone into dissecting this issue. > > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 8:54 AM Jay <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Vince >> >> It appears to me ( might be im not clear on what’s happening) that the >> radian is powering a backed up load. >> You’re calling it AC coupled? >> >> What if you connected the sol ark to the radian ac input for battery >> charging. Then set the grid/generator input support of the radian so it >> doesn’t overwhelm the input but powers the loads. >> >> It would be connected just like a generator or grid, but not AC coupled. >> You shouldn’t have any dropouts. >> >> Jay >> >> Peltz power. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Jan 20, 2022, at 6:08 AM, Mac Lewis <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Hi Vince, >> That is a very complex design, so many breaker interlocks but I think I >> understand the intent! >> >> When you say that you have programmed the Radian for AC coupling, that >> really isn't programming it to be AC coupled on its AC input side, its >> saying that it can AC couple inverters on its AC load side. Remember the >> Radian is a grid forming inverter on the load side (controls voltage and >> freq) and a current source on the grid input (does not control voltage and >> freq). How you are connecting solar modules to the Radian will tell you >> how to set this setting. If you are using charge controllers, you don't >> want AC coupling here. >> >> Look closely at the grid settings in the Radian, this will control how it >> will interact with the Sol-Arks at its input. Its looking at the voltage, >> frequency, impedance etc. on the input and deciding if it should push >> current. Maybe there is a setting that needs opened up a bit? Be cautious >> here. >> >> Anyway, here is what I would try after looking closely at the grid >> settings in the Radian: >> >> Measure DC buss voltage (Blue Ion voltage) throughout this process. Do >> you see any abrupt changes in the DC buss voltage? At what SOC? Do you >> have solid communication between Sol-Ark and Blue Ion (Namaka box)? Do you >> ever see it drop and go to voltage mode instead of SOC communication mode? >> Does the same issue occur if you use voltage control on the Sol-Ark? >> >> Turn on your DC coupling, and slowly ramp up the AC coupled current (sell >> current setting on the Radian). Does any AC coupled current trip it off? >> I suspect if the sell current is lower than the load current, there should >> be no freq/watt shift. >> If you discharge the batteries deeply, does this make a difference? >> Since you have an open Gen Input Breaker, why not put the Radian GT >> connection on it? >> Do you really want the Radian to be able to discharge the Blue Ion >> battery bank at night? >> >> Customer designs are tough, Good Luck! >> >> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 10:16 PM Vince McClellan < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Thanks Pieter >>> We seem to have the opposite problem from what you are experiencing. Our >>> freq-watt regulation of the Radian inverter by the Sol-Ark inverters seems >>> to be actuated by the DC power from the solar array that is DC connected to >>> the Sol-Ark inverters. It is supposed to be actuated by the SOC of the Blue >>> Ion batteries, but that is inconsistent at best. We can turn the DC power >>> from the solar array on on the master inverter, but when we try using the >>> MPPT channels on the two other inverters it briefly actuates the freq-watt >>> function of the Sol-Ark disconnecting the Radian inverter. >>> >>> Vince McClellan >>> Energy Design >>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>> p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 >>> >>> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient >>> please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or >>> attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 8:20 PM Pieter Huebner < >>> [email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> Vince, For what it is worth: >>>> >>>> We have also been working on similar issues when using multiple Solark >>>> inverters connected in parallel. The issue has been that parallel Solark >>>> inverters don't seem to be able to properly regulate the battery charge >>>> voltage. Although Solark technical support has been outstanding, and with >>>> their help we have diminished the severity but not solved the issue. For >>>> the sites that we currently have deployed for the interim we had to resort >>>> to turning down the charge voltage set points in order to protect the >>>> Lithium batteries. and avoid BMS shutdowns. We have a client with an >>>> existing outback system and were planning to expand the existing system >>>> using AC bussed Solark 12K inverters with additional battery and solar >>>> capacity (the site is 100% off grid, and has evolved into a micro grid), >>>> but are now going a different direction. Although we have not yet attempted >>>> an AC bussed Solark system, I suspect that the issues you are having are >>>> related to the battery voltage regulation problem we have experienced. >>>> >>>> Pieter >>>> >>>> <image001.png> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> *On >>>> Behalf Of *Vince McClellan >>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2022 5:16 PM >>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> >>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to >>>> a new system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue Ion >>>> batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark inverters accept >>>> the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on the DC power from the >>>> new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As soon as there is >>>> significant DC power coming from the solar array the Sol-Ark inverters >>>> freq-watt turns on for a brief second and disconnects the Radian inverter >>>> even when the Blue Ion batteries are below the programmed state of charge >>>> threshold. If we don't turn on the DC power from the new solar array the >>>> Radian will connect and stay connected. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this >>>> system to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt >>>> kicking in on the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian inverter. >>>> Sol-Ark has sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark inverters and we are >>>> still experiencing the same problem. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our >>>> troubleshooting efforts next? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> >>>> Vince McClellan >>>> >>>> Energy Design >>>> >>>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional >>>> >>>> p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 >>>> >>>> If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient >>>> please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or >>>> attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: [email protected] >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: [email protected] >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> Mac Lewis >> >> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: [email protected] >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the >> other: >> https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >> >> _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > >
_______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: [email protected] Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
