HI Jeff The overriding design constraints were to try to make an older existing system and a new state of the art system perform like one unit. It was a bad premise to start with. I let the client talk me into this design against my better judgment. It would have been less expensive for my company to simply scrap the old system, add another inverter to the new system, and add the DC array power to the new system from the existing system. Live and learn!
Thanks for chiming in, Vince McClellan Energy Design NABCEP PV Installation Professional p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of this email is strictly prohibited. On Thu, Jan 20, 2022 at 1:02 PM Tump <[email protected]> wrote: > I must agree spent quite a bit of time trying to figure WTF over. Then i > saw it was an architect design. He must have been paying himself cause I > have no idea why someone would want to try to integrate all this stuff > while the tech support had nothing to say but; "that won’t work”. Hope for > your sake it was T&M. T > > On Jan 20, 2022, at 2:25 PM, Jeff Clearwater <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Hi Vince and All, > > Loving this insightful discussion on the technical subtleties of this > set-up - but I'm wondering if I'm missing the Why? What is this design > trying to accomplish? What were the overriding design drivers? > > Is it a case of incremental design where one system needed to grow but a > separate system was added? Are they physically close to each other? > > Are you trying to leverage the outputs so the loads have the advantage of > both outputs simultaneously? > > If you solve this one AC coupling cut-out issue - is the system then > optimized and exactly what does that optimization accomplish? > > I understand if you don't want to take the time to explain all this but > I'm just curious - is there a useful architecture out there that I'm > missing? > > Can the PV and battery resources be combined into one system? - (perhaps > by selling the AGMs and Radian and buying more lithium and Sol-Arks?) > > Seems like control and fine tuning and troubleshooting ongoing would be a > hassle with such complexity - but then again we sometimes work with what we > got! > > As Nick said - they are lucky to have you! Question is how to best serve > that design! > > Best, > > Jeff > > Vince McClellan <[email protected]> > > January 20, 2022 at 10:32 AM > Thanks again for your input. I'll check the Blue Ion battery voltage the > next time on site with and without the Radian AC coupled. I'm also going to > check in with Sol-Ark and see if the inverters respond to high battery > voltage when they are in closed loop with the BMS on the battery. I've > always assumed that the Sol-Ark's software just responds to the SOC from > the BMS. > That would be a possible connection between the freq-watt function on the > Sol-Ark and DC power from the solar array. I was really scratching my head > on where the possible connection could be between incoming DC power and the > freq-watt function on the Sol-Arks. > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Pieter Huebner <[email protected]> > > January 20, 2022 at 6:41 AM > Vince, Although you have an AC bussed connection, the issue may not be the > opposite as ours. In Our case the battery buss voltage goes high when the > solar array is enabled. If you are also experiencing DC buss excursions you > can trigger frequency shifting. If you haven't already done so, I suggest > that you closely monitor the battery voltage when the solar array is > charging both with and without the Radian AC bussing connected. > Pieter > > <image.png> > > *From:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Vince McClellan > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2022 11:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues > > Thanks Pieter > We seem to have the opposite problem from what you are experiencing. Our > freq-watt regulation of the Radian inverter by the Sol-Ark inverters seems > to be actuated by the DC power from the solar array that is DC connected to > the Sol-Ark inverters. It is supposed to be actuated by the SOC of the Blue > Ion batteries, but that is inconsistent at best. We can turn the DC power > from the solar array on on the master inverter, but when we try using the > MPPT channels on the two other inverters it briefly actuates the freq-watt > function of the Sol-Ark disconnecting the Radian inverter. > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2022 at 8:20 PM Pieter Huebner < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Vince McClellan <[email protected]> > > January 19, 2022 at 9:15 PM > Thanks Pieter > We seem to have the opposite problem from what you are experiencing. Our > freq-watt regulation of the Radian inverter by the Sol-Ark inverters seems > to be actuated by the DC power from the solar array that is DC connected to > the Sol-Ark inverters. It is supposed to be actuated by the SOC of the Blue > Ion batteries, but that is inconsistent at best. We can turn the DC power > from the solar array on on the master inverter, but when we try using the > MPPT channels on the two other inverters it briefly actuates the freq-watt > function of the Sol-Ark disconnecting the Radian inverter. > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Pieter Huebner <[email protected]> > > January 19, 2022 at 8:20 PM > Vince, For what it is worth: > We have also been working on similar issues when using multiple Solark > inverters connected in parallel. The issue has been that parallel Solark > inverters don't seem to be able to properly regulate the battery charge > voltage. Although Solark technical support has been outstanding, and with > their help we have diminished the severity but not solved the issue. For > the sites that we currently have deployed for the interim we had to resort > to turning down the charge voltage set points in order to protect the > Lithium batteries. and avoid BMS shutdowns. We have a client with an > existing outback system and were planning to expand the existing system > using AC bussed Solark 12K inverters with additional battery and solar > capacity (the site is 100% off grid, and has evolved into a micro grid), > but are now going a different direction. Although we have not yet attempted > an AC bussed Solark system, I suspect that the issues you are having are > related to the battery voltage regulation problem we have experienced. > Pieter > <image.png> > > > *From:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Vince McClellan > *Sent:* Wednesday, January 19, 2022 5:16 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches <[email protected]> > <[email protected]> > *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark AC Coupling Issues > > Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters? > > We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to a > new system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue Ion > batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark inverters accept > the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on the DC power from the > new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As soon as there is > significant DC power coming from the solar array the Sol-Ark inverters > freq-watt turns on for a brief second and disconnects the Radian inverter > even when the Blue Ion batteries are below the programmed state of charge > threshold. If we don't turn on the DC power from the new solar array the > Radian will connect and stay connected. > > We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this > system to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt > kicking in on the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian inverter. > Sol-Ark has sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark inverters and we are > still experiencing the same problem. > > Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our > troubleshooting efforts next? > > Thanks, > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > Vince McClellan <[email protected]> > > January 19, 2022 at 3:15 PM > Is anyone on the list familiar with AC coupling Sol-Ark inverters? > > We haven't been able to AC couple an existing Outback Radian system to a > new system that we built with 3, Sol-Ark 12K inverters and 3, Blue Ion > batteries. Each time we have tested the system the Sol-Ark inverters accept > the power from the Radian inverter until we turn on the DC power from the > new solar array to the Sol-Ark inverters. As soon as there is > significant DC power coming from the solar array the Sol-Ark inverters > freq-watt turns on for a brief second and disconnects the Radian inverter > even when the Blue Ion batteries are below the programmed state of charge > threshold. If we don't turn on the DC power from the new solar array the > Radian will connect and stay connected. > > We have been working with Sol-Ark for several months now to get this > system to accept the incoming power from the Radian without freq-watt > kicking in on the Sol-Ark inverters and disconnecting the Radian inverter. > Sol-Ark has sent two software revisions to the Sol-Ark inverters and we are > still experiencing the same problem. > > Can anyone think of what we might be missing and where to direct our > troubleshooting efforts next? > > Thanks, > > Vince McClellan > Energy Design > NABCEP PV Installation Professional > p. (541) 485-8122 f. (541) 338-8202 > > If you have received this email and are not the intended recipient please > delete this email. Copying, or using any part, content, or attachment of > this email is strictly prohibited. > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/[email protected]/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > *[email protected] <[email protected]>* *www.SWNL.net* > Solarwinds Northernlights > * Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California* > * 207-832-7574 Cl. > 610-517-8401 * > *Blair "TUMP" May* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** * * > NABCEP "Certified PV Installer"* > > > * ******** MAINE'S CHARTER ******** ** > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: [email protected] > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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