It’s incredibly infuriating that the generator charging doesn’t happen if you manually turn it on, regardless of the ags start/stop settings.
The lux power is like that. I can’t speak to sol ark. It has to be within the preset ags start stop settings.
And why after 30 yrs don’t we have the same parameters we used to?
IE manual on then to auto so it will auto shut off?
Or quiet time
Or an off/on/auto switch
Or inverter support
Adjustable warm up/cool down times
Ags is already the most problematic thing, why make it worse?
The part I really don’t understand is that these machines have some pretty high powered computers in them and these features should be easy to add.
On a related note, what generators are people using with the 8-12 kw inverters?
Jay
On May 12, 2025, at 3:59 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
With the AIO, there are a few different basic settings that affect the charging scenario for using a generator to charge the batteries: The Gen start and stop relay (simple open and closed dry contact) and the battery charging parameter (which determines what SOC the AIO will charge the batteries to). It wasn't intuitive for me at first, but now that I'm used to it, it's not complicated.
If I'm using the AIO to start the generator I set the battery charging to start at whatever SOC the client wants to let the batteries discharge to before the gen kicks in, typically somewhere between 25% and 35% (depending on battery capacity, time of year, size of array, size of loads, etc). There is an AGS off setting, which I might set at anywhere from 45% to 85%, again depending on site factors. If the battery charging parameter is set lower than the ending AGS setting, the generator will continue to run and only carry the loads, but not charge the batteries - obviously not a recommended scenario.
If the client is manually starting and stopping the generator, then I set the AGS start at as high as it will go (90%) and stop at 100%, but disengage the remote genstart signal either at the generator or with an interrupting switch in the control wires. Otherwise if the SOC is higher the the gen start setting when the generator is manually turned on, the AIO will only use the generator to carry the loads, and again, not charge the batteries. There is a "force charge" setting which tells the AIO to charge the batteries if AC is present regardless of the other settings, but I believe this setting drops back to off when the charging stops, so the 90% gen start setting is more reliable for manual gen starting. If the client is bouncing back and forth between auto starting and manual starting, they need to understand the limitations of the programming. I have implored Midnite to change the "Dry force" parameter (which start the generator through the AIO manually) to a gen control parameter, with an "Off, Auto, On" option, which would override the battery charge setting in the "On" position, forcing a charge when this option is used.
As far as solar charging goes when the inverter goes to standby if the battery SOC drops below the "Discharge To (%)" (which I usually set to at least 10% if not higher, again depending on the site specific circumstances), in my experience the AIO continues to use the solar to charge the batteries when available as long as the batteries haven't gone dark and shut the inverter off. The client will need to put the inverter from standby to "On' once the batteries have come back up to the minimum battery SOC setting. I also believe if the batteries haven't shut down, if the generator is started, the AIO will charge the batteries if the inverter is turned back on, although I don't swear to this.
Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not have closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my first Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it will work with that yet.
That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot
Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the
array or otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw
of the BMS then takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the
battery off. This would be a different situation with a
knowledgeable owner onsite full time, but for vacation properties,
it will go into complete shut down, not coming back.
Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its
really not clear what the different settings do, and how they
interact. I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't
at Tech support. At least you can change the programming on the
touch screen, and you don't have to get a quirky app up off grid
to do basic changes.
BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App
updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming?
Planned Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still
doing its job.....
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar
via RE-wrenches wrote:
We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid
clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay
alive in the background and will recharge the batteries when the
sun comes out the next day and turn itself back on and provide AC
power output.
So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too
always recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still
need a 48 v power supply to get the battery system back
up, and that's becoming a serious pain in my aging
backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would
have enough voltage to get the charge controller to come
back on, and eventually the customer could get the
inverter back on too. No special trip out.
We need an independent circuit that would sense array
voltage, and wake up the battery, so it could take a
charge: a backup battery for the offgrid battery. Without
that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not self healing like
Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an
amazing amount of new Chinese technology driving the
jalopy in reverse. (Danger Will Robinson)
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason
Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
We
always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the
inverter and send generator power to the loads.
Most clients take us up on it. For retrofits,
sometimes there can be space limitations,
however.
As
for the function of the AIO, there is no
integrated mechanical bypass, and since there is
an internal relay controlling the generator input
(or smart load output on that breaker), I think
the default function is for the relay to open when
the inverter turns off. AC voltage on the load
side of the breaker does not close the relay and
turn the inverter back on automatically.
Jason Szumlanski
Principal
Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP
Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida
State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
On
2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via
RE-wrenches wrote:
Maybe I'm missing
something, but it seems like there is a
flaw in the logic for how generator
integration works with this
product. Unlike some of the other AIOs,
you can't put the generator on the Grid
input in an off-grid scenario. You have
to use the Generator smart load breaker,
which isn't a dedicated generator input,
but a programmable circuit. This is
problematic because it seemingly has a
normally open internal relay that closes
only when the inverter is ON. At least,
that's how it seems to work in my
limited experience.
Why is this a problem? If
the battery capacity drops below the low
voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off.
You have to turn the inverter ON for the
generator relay to close so you can
charge the battery, but since the
battery is too low, the inverter won't
turn on. You would have to reprogram the
inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC
below the current battery state. For
people who do not want to use AGS, or if
AGS fails to start the generator for any
reason, getting the generator to charge
the battery manually is no easy task.
Moreover, turning the
generator on manually when the inverter
is in an OFF state will not pass power
to the loads, and will not turn
the inverter ON automatically. You have
to get the inverter turned ON somehow so
that the generator power can pass
through to the loads. And since the
startup sequence for this inverter is
very quirky, non-intuitive, and
unreliable, that makes the problem even
worse. I'm not sure if you can even turn
the inverter ON when there is generator
input and the battery is too low. I
don't think you can because the relay is
open and the inverter doesn't even see
generator voltage when it is in an OFF
state.
This seems like a serious
oversight and a reason to go with one of
the other AIOs on the market. I believe
the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 18kPV will both
immediately power loads and start
charging when the generator is on,
regardless of whether the generator is
connected to the Grid or Generator
input. Any AC input immediately passes
through to the loads. This is because
those inverters stay "on" when a low
battery condition is met, and they
simply stop using the battery to invert
power if the battery conditions do not
allow it, based on the settings.
The logic of the Midnite
AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff
is met and opening the generator relay
doesn't make sense to me. Am I wrong
about how this works?
Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer
Florida Solar Design Group
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