(Robert) Bruce Reyburn wrote:
> Religion, as something which otherwise lies at core of life, is a distant
> memory for many Western peoples today. Note also that many people do live
> in a non-secular state arrangement. What do you say to Muslim peoples on
> this topic of the unequalled virtue of secular states?
Bruce
your perspective on this is very male, very hetero. otherwise you wouldn't hold
up muslim societies as having any virtue whatsoever.
the religious state still exists when a woman tries to 'procure' an abortion or
a gay teenager counselling.
australia is not a secular state and never has been. religion intrudes through
the state apparatus into peoples minds and bodies.
to me this entire debate is cock-eyed.
> The secular intrepretation of life opens up a space for the worst of
> human forces to operative. Is it as destrucive as the other Western
> imports. My guess is that, being spiritually empty, it is ultimately far
> more destructive even if comparatively rich people like you and me
> enjoy a degree of licence called 'individual freedom'. It's a fool's
> paradise, mate. Good while long party goes on but the energy
> which is being burnt off is both limied and required for other
> purposes.
this individual freedom has allowed my community to flourish. the reduction in
the power of the church over the state has been essential to this. I would like
to know before it is replaced what new 'vision' awaits me and my community. this
explanation is not offered, just a blur. why wouldn't I worry that life would
get worse? what changes in systems haven't resulted in imprisonment, death and
brutality for our mob? (communism being an obvious example) how are your ideas
any better?
and what is wrong with a party? what is wrong with burning off energy? perhaps
I'm misreading you here bruce but this sounds a little wowserish. to me
spirituality and what constitutes it is very different from your experience.
to me the dancefloor of the dome at the sydney showgrounds, where the gras party
is held, is a sacred site. it glows with memories of lost friends. I can
absolutely 100% feel them in such a place. seeing aids quilt panels of people I
know in the gras had that overwhelming, spiritual power to me as well. I have my
sacred sites, and I know the power of the word sacred and apply it here
knowingly, and I share those sites and those feelings with many others.
unfortunately they are not valued and regularly desecrated. my community is so
used to being ignored or vilified that we have no energy left to defend them
(and not because of dancing all night!).
many cities have sites where 'different' people have gathered for centuries.
little spots of temporary tolerance. sydney has this too. inner eastern sydney,
kings cross and darlinghurst, have gay histories going back throughout this
century for example.
> We (who feel this failing keenly) need to imagine a better Way of living.
> Think outside the State model. Why is it, Rod, that academic anthropology
> in this country must systematically exclude certain obvious features of
> the lives of First Peoples. Why? Because it is acting in keeping with the
> instructions of its secular state masters.
I would like to know more about indigenous peoples relationship with sexuality.
and gender roles. I think there's much to learn there for western gays but it's
not a one-way street. my communities have some ideas and some lessons too.
also many indigenous peoples have their 'different' people as shamans. (not
'gay', because that's a limited western concept). in order to imagine a 'better
way of living' they and we need to be consulted otherwise it's a hetero vision.
any models which are developed without this energy are limited. and preambles,
referendums or whatever are being devised without this input.
this appears to pass most people by as irrelevant yet it is not just a matter of
equal opportunity but of what ends up being fashioned from just hetero input.
lessons we have learnt are ignored. ideas we have dismissed as frivolous etc.
it's not just our loss.
> Imagine a truly cosmic yet down-to-earth Way of living. Now put a face to
> it.
>
> I bet you don't come up with John Howard. Kim Beazley? Nup.
no, I come up with friends who have been through and seen a lot. who have faced
death and are still here. who thumb their nose at society. who make a difference
every time they walk to the shops. whose choice of gender or no gender becomes a
> truly mind blowing transcendental dimension
to observers.
we have a hell of a lot to learn from such people yet they aren't just excluded
but brutalized. and why would that be? what does their very existence trigger
that's fundamentally wrong with our society?
> People who, for one reason of another, expereince life from a different
> viewpoint (Catholic education? Senior Lawman? Alternative living types?)
> are in a good position to be alive to the existence of the secular code
> for interpretation and to the amount of power which is expropriated to put
> it into place as a kind of giant force field.
except my mob would disagree with your start point bruce (secular state).
just one pooftas 2c worth.
paul
--
|: Paul Canning [EMAIL PROTECTED]
� http://www.rainbow.net.au/~canning
>Queers for Reconciliation http://reconciliation.queer.org.au
KLDF http://www.green.net.au/hindmarsh/
>QAnnounce http://announce.queer.org.au/
-------------------------------------------------------
RecOzNet2 has a page @ http://www.green.net.au/recoznet2
To unsubscribe from this list, mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and in the body
of the message, include the words: unsubscribe announce or click here
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]?Body=unsubscribe%20announce
This posting is provided to the individual members of this group without permission
from the
copyright owner for purposes of criticism, comment, scholarship and research under
the "fair
use" provisions of the Federal copyright laws and it may not be distributed further
without
permission of the copyright owner, except for "fair use."
