You know why we use "outdated" systems? Because they work. They have been
proven over time. I am not saying that these are the only ways to set up a
system. I like change, and challenging those that say there is only one way
to do things. If you remember, I said in my email that there are plenty of
people who have success using a deep sand bed. My points were simply:
1. That people go out preaching there new and improved way of setting up a
tank without including the exact steps to do so. Then is what happens is
thousands of people go out and set it up using this great new way, each one
differently, and then their tanks needlessly crash and they loose animals,
and often quit the hobby. After reading Shimeks articles, I had to email him
and ask detailed questions to finally get the complete instructions to
"properly" set up a deep sandbed system. He is so bent on showing people how
easy this system is supposed to be, that he forgets to mention that you need
a large crop of caluerpa (or xenia) to make it work correctly. Why? Because
that then makes the system a lot harder to set up, thus people are not going
to jump on the DSB bandwagon and he does not gain the recognition he wants.
2. What numbers say (your scentific data) and what actually works in the
real world are often totally different. Just because Shimek is a scientist
does not make everything he says right.
What I do know is that from my experience, and the experience of many others
I know of, is that over time, a deep sand bed can not keep up with the
demands of the tank. It is the "norm" for 99% of those beginning in the
hobby to overstock and overfeed thier tanks. To have an incorrectly set up
DSB in their tank is a ticking time bomb. Even a correctly set up one is
questionable under overstocked and overfed conditions.
Here is a question for you. What happens in a system with a DSB when your
export mechanism goes down? What happens when the caluerpa or xenia crashes
or the protien skimmer goes down?? What happens if you cant replace that
mechanism for an extended period of time, say 4-6 weeks? In my system, I
depend on live rock, power skimming and water changes with detritus removal.
I depend solely on my LR for biological filtration. If for some reason it
goes down, obviously so does the system. The chances of that happening slim
to none. So, that leaves my protien skimmer and my water changes as my
export. If my skimmer goes down, I can still rely on my LR and my water
changes (remember, my old outdated ways still rely on removal of detritus by
the aquarist through water changes) will maintain the tank for many months
without the protien skimmer. If worse comes to worse, I can increase my
water changes.
In a properly set up DSB the aquarist is not supposed to vacume the
substrate. Detritus is healthy part of the system, right?. Not only that,
but by vacing the bed, you are removing the micobes that create the system
itself, right?. So if a part of the DSB system goes down, the aquarist is
supposed to do what? Just change some water and let the DOC build up within
the system? You know what happens to those DOCs? They end up in the sand
bed, for a while, then finally the sand bed cant handle it anymore, and it
crashes and down goes the tank. There is not caluerpa to help abosorb that.
A DSB and a protien skimmer in a DSB tank, over time, by themselves can not
handle the waste that accumulates in a system. I have seen it first hand,
more than once.
Yea, I am sure there are plent of people on the bulletin boards who have had
success, how many people do you think have not? Its like the guy that says
he has a sebae anemone that has lived for years. He has had success, but the
other 100 guys who tried it and it died did not.
As far as temperature goes, I personally have not flown around the world and
taken temperature readings. However the author debating Shimeks theory, Bob
Fenner I do believe, had. He had also done controlled experiments to
determine if there were any positives to keeping high temps in tanks for a
long period of time. There were none, and some of the corals suffered from
it. Bottom line is that the temps where we get our animals fluxes a bit
depending on the time of year. Our corals can handle these temp fluxes for a
short period of time, but if you keep them there over an extended period of
time, you increase your chance of having problems with the animals. Why
would you bother risking it?
As I have said in each of my emails debating the use of DSBs, I am not
saying they cant work. I have never said that. I am saying that people need
to be educated properly and entirely on the set up and maintanence of them
so that they can do it correctly from the beginning. They then must be able
to trouble shoot their system quickly and properly so that IF there is a
problem, they dont look at every things else as the culpret besides the sand
bed, while thier tank continues on a downward spiral.
There is the preverbial more than one way to skin a cat, and I think that is
what we are dealing with here. I think both systems have their positives and
negatives. My personal feeling is that the "outdated" berlin methods
positives outweigh those of the DSB.
IMHO,
Shane C.
PS. Bob Fenner, the author you recommended in another email writes for FAMA.
I think that any magazine has questionable articles, but they all have
something to offer, again, IMO.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andrew Dillard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 4:09 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: silica sand ?
>
> I will always believe Shimek over any author, and hear is why: the man is
> a
> scientist. He and Eric Borneman are changing the way hobbyists mantain
> their tanks and there are certain people(like you all) that perfer the
> older
> methods who continually bash them and "rip their theories to threads"(ie
> Kent Marine). There are thousands who have embraced Borneman and Shimek's
> theories and have much better reefs to show for it. I have subscribed to
> this list since around December and the people on this list seem a bit
> outdated. Shimek has sicence to back up his theories, what do FAMA and
> their outdated writers have? Just this month they have an article on
> plenums and how to make one for your anemone tank. I wouldnt pay $0.10
> for
> a copy of that crappy magazine. As for not including nutrient export in
> his
> articles, any tank needs nutrient export, not just a DSB tank. With the
> correct amount of sandbed critters there should be no dead spots and with
> macros in a sump your nitrates should be at zero. As for higher
> temperatures, have you studied the temperatures in the wild? I suppose
> you
> also keep your salinity at 1.022? Shimek's whole premise it to more
> closely
> copy nature's filtration, and many are having success, dont believe me, go
> to any popular bulletin board and look at how many tanks there are with
> DSBs. I'm tired of defending these theories, go ask the man himself at
> the
> next MACNA. A few of the outdated reefers in his workshop tried
> contesting
> his theories and were shot down fast and hard by scientific answers that
> made their heads spin and turn red. But what's a theory without
> expirementation? I encourage you to try DSBs with the proper requirements
> they are a cheap, effective filtration.
>
> IMHO
> Andrew
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marco Delsordo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:27 PM
> Subject: RE: silica sand ?
>
>
> I agree with Shane, a coral substrate to maintain the buffer and calcium
> levels is a good idea.
> Don�t ever listen to "authors" that have no idea of what they are talking
> about, and make their theories in what they think is funny, like Shimek.
> Or
> the ones that only want to sell.
> You all should read Martin A. Moe, in his book Marine Systems and
> Invertebrates he makes a serious study about susbstrates, and all your
> doubts should be covered.
>
> Marco
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Clays [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Viernes, 31 de Agosto de 2001 05:10 p.m.
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: silica sand ?
>
>
> hhhhmmm. Interesting. Personally, and this is just me and an opinion, and
> we
> all know they saying about opinions, but I am not really on the Shimek
> bandwagon. As a matter of fact, I dont really agree with most of his
> theories. He has advocated keeping reef tanks at 82-83 degrees for a while
> now, and about 6 months ago, one of "the authors" of one of the magazines
> just ripped his high temp theories to shreds. This author (cant remember
> his
> name or which mag it was in) also ripped many of his deep sand bed, set it
> up and just ignore it type theories apart too. I dont agree with Ron and
> his
> sand bed theories, and although he may have had success with them, I think
> he leaves many things, specifically what you have to do to properly set up
> and support one of the sandbeds, out when he is advocating them. As I had
> mentioned in my giant email a few days ago, he says you need some type of
> export mechanism to export nutrients. I had read his material and had
> never
> read that at all until I emailed him to "debate" some of his theories.
>
> The whole concept of the calcium based substrate leaching calcium back
> into
> the water for corals to use can be, and from what I have seen, is
> completely
> valid. The way it is supposed to work is that as the oxygen levels in a
> sandbed lessen with depth, the pH in the sandbed is lowered as well. At a
> certain point (7.2 I believe) the water is acidic enough to actually
> slightly break down the alkaline, calcium based substrate. Through slow
> osmosis, the water, along with the calcium and alk buffers are released
> back
> into the water, thus becoming bio-available for the animals in the system.
> Usually, the amounts released are so slight that we need to continue
> supplementing our systems, but from what I know, it does in fact occur.
>
> The point is, the pH deep in the sandbed and the pH in the tank are
> completely different, or at least are supposed to be. That is why the
> calcium can become available with out melting the corals.
>
> I know you were just relaying what he said, so please dont take this as a
> personal thing. This is just what I have read and seen.
>
> IMO,
> Shane C.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Dillard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 2:45 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> >
> > have to jump in hear, silica sand is fine for use in a DSB, just ask Dr.
> > Shimek yourself. Also, as I heard at MACNA calcium based sands are in
> > fact
> > not acting as a buffer. This is a myth as Dr. Shimek said, "if your
> > calcium
> > based sand is actually dissolving in your aquarium, then your corals
> > should
> > be melting as well." Dont beleive me, ask the Dr. at reefcentral or
> > reefs.org
> >
> >
> > IMHO
> > Andrew
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 5:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> >
> >
> > > I wouldnt use it either, the thing about it causing diatoms is bull it
> > wont
> > > dissolve readily enough with the pH our tanks are maintained at. The
> > problem
> > > is silica sand causes problems with pH youll have a helluva time
> trying
> > to
> > > keep your pH and alk stable.
> > > ________________________________________
> > >
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