shane, andrew
you are both right!
dsb can be "good" and can be "bad". Lets knock off the bickering plz. and
get back to helping others out.
I personally have setup tanks both ways and have not had success with them
on thier own. but when I mixed the two types of setups, I have achieved my
best success. 5years and counting.
Also there is not "one" proclaimed expert on this list, everyone brings
thier own bit of expertise. So lets help each other out and stop the
arguing.
Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Dillard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> Hmm, sorry for dissing the self proclaimed expert of this list... It
> seems you all are closed to newer options in reef keeping. Yes, you say
that
> deep sand beds can work but you continue to spread the same propaganda
about
> how dangerous they are and how they are always on the brink of crashing.
> They are in fact alot more stable, and the typical hobbyist who overfeeds
is
> actually helping the sand bed by feeding it. This is one of the purposes
of
> a DSB, to eat detritus and excess food. Cauperla is universally excepted
as
> a good way to reduce nitrates, the Europeans have been using it for years!
> This is not the only way to setup aquariums, in fact it can be dangerous
in
> tanks with small surface areas(10 gallon or less) unless you are
constantly
> importing worms and such. Also, Dr. Ron has a paying job, he dosnt have
to
> type out articles if he dosnt want to. I cant beleive that you think he
> is"conning" people into deep sand beds for personal profit. Anyway, my
> favorite movie, office space is on so I will go watch it and will not
upset
> the age old traditions of this list and the Sprung, Delbeek, Thiel way of
> reefkeeping.
>
>
> *widly dodges salvo of bullets*
> andrew
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Marco Delsordo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 6:41 PM
> Subject: RE: silica sand ?
>
>
> Andrew, if you don�t like what people says in this list maybe you should
> change to a cibersex chat or something like that.
> I think Shane is right in many points, and if I don�t agree with her I
just
> don�t do what she says, instead of insulting her.
> This is a friendly list, avoid those manners please.
> Marco
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Shane Clays [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Martes, 04 de Septiembre de 2001 05:29 p.m.
> To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> Subject: RE: silica sand ?
>
>
> Andrew,
>
> Maybe you could chill out a bit with the sarcasm. Is there a problem with
a
> discussion to the upsides and downsides to keeping both types of systems?
Is
>
> it just that you and someone with Dr. in front of their name know the one
> and only way to set up an aquarium? Do you really think it is okay to give
> partial information to aquarists and let them figure out the rest for
> themselves? Why is it that you insist on letting everyone know how
outdated
> they are and if they arent keeping a system a certain way, your way, that
> they dont know jack?
>
> Maybe you didnt see the three or four times I have written that sandbeds
can
> be an effective way to set up a tank? Or is it that I just didnt agree
with
> you 100% that you dont like? Do you really feel like a DSB with a refugium
> is the only way to set up a successful reef aquarium?
>
> On a final note, I dont advocate packing the tank full of LR, using a
large
> UV or using crushed coral. I dont use either, although I do know many
people
> who have quite successfully. Maybe you should go back through the emails
> and read the discussion.....oh never mind.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andrew Dillard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:23 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> >
> > Shane, Dr. Shimeks new book thats coming out should answer alll your
> > questions. For one thing, pretty much all reefers who know jack are
using
> > cauperla in an illuminated refugium. For another thing deep sand beds
are
> > cheap, and I dont see how Dr. Shimek has anything to gain from there
> > popularity. I'm sorry that Dr. Shimek could not meet your expectations
in
> > his articles, at least he was kind enough to answer your questions.
> > Perhaps
> > you could write an article on why we should pack our tanks with live
rock,
> > hook up a large UV, vaccum our crushed coral every week? You seem to be
> > quite the expert at keeping sps........
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> >
> >
> > From: "Shane Clays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 12:55 PM
> > Subject: RE: silica sand ?
> >
> >
> > > You know why we use "outdated" systems? Because they work. They have
> > been
> > > proven over time. I am not saying that these are the only ways to set
up
> > a
> > > system. I like change, and challenging those that say there is only
one
> > way
> > > to do things. If you remember, I said in my email that there are
plenty
> > of
> > > people who have success using a deep sand bed. My points were simply:
> > >
> > > 1. That people go out preaching there new and improved way of setting
up
> > a
> > > tank without including the exact steps to do so. Then is what happens
is
> > > thousands of people go out and set it up using this great new way,
each
> > one
> > > differently, and then their tanks needlessly crash and they loose
> > animals,
> > > and often quit the hobby. After reading Shimeks articles, I had to
email
> > him
> > > and ask detailed questions to finally get the complete instructions to
> > > "properly" set up a deep sandbed system. He is so bent on showing
people
> > how
> > > easy this system is supposed to be, that he forgets to mention that
you
> > need
> > > a large crop of caluerpa (or xenia) to make it work correctly. Why?
> > Because
> > > that then makes the system a lot harder to set up, thus people are not
> > going
> > > to jump on the DSB bandwagon and he does not gain the recognition he
> > wants.
> > >
> > > 2. What numbers say (your scentific data) and what actually works in
the
> > > real world are often totally different. Just because Shimek is a
> > scientist
> > > does not make everything he says right.
> > >
> > > What I do know is that from my experience, and the experience of many
> > others
> > > I know of, is that over time, a deep sand bed can not keep up with the
> > > demands of the tank. It is the "norm" for 99% of those beginning in
the
> > > hobby to overstock and overfeed thier tanks. To have an incorrectly
set
> > up
> > > DSB in their tank is a ticking time bomb. Even a correctly set up one
is
> > > questionable under overstocked and overfed conditions.
> > >
> > > Here is a question for you. What happens in a system with a DSB when
> > your
> > > export mechanism goes down? What happens when the caluerpa or xenia
> > crashes
> > > or the protien skimmer goes down?? What happens if you cant replace
> > that
> > > mechanism for an extended period of time, say 4-6 weeks? In my system,
I
> > > depend on live rock, power skimming and water changes with detritus
> > removal.
> > > I depend solely on my LR for biological filtration. If for some reason
> > it
> > > goes down, obviously so does the system. The chances of that happening
> > slim
> > > to none. So, that leaves my protien skimmer and my water changes as my
> > > export. If my skimmer goes down, I can still rely on my LR and my
water
> > > changes (remember, my old outdated ways still rely on removal of
> > detritus
> > by
> > > the aquarist through water changes) will maintain the tank for many
> > months
> > > without the protien skimmer. If worse comes to worse, I can increase
my
> > > water changes.
> > >
> > > In a properly set up DSB the aquarist is not supposed to vacume the
> > > substrate. Detritus is healthy part of the system, right?. Not only
> > that,
> > > but by vacing the bed, you are removing the micobes that create the
> > system
> > > itself, right?. So if a part of the DSB system goes down, the aquarist
> > is
> > > supposed to do what? Just change some water and let the DOC build up
> > within
> > > the system? You know what happens to those DOCs? They end up in the
sand
> > > bed, for a while, then finally the sand bed cant handle it anymore,
and
> > it
> > > crashes and down goes the tank. There is not caluerpa to help abosorb
> > that.
> > > A DSB and a protien skimmer in a DSB tank, over time, by themselves
can
> > not
> > > handle the waste that accumulates in a system. I have seen it first
> > hand,
> > > more than once.
> > >
> > > Yea, I am sure there are plent of people on the bulletin boards who
have
> > had
> > > success, how many people do you think have not? Its like the guy that
> > says
> > > he has a sebae anemone that has lived for years. He has had success,
but
> > the
> > > other 100 guys who tried it and it died did not.
> > >
> > > As far as temperature goes, I personally have not flown around the
world
> > and
> > > taken temperature readings. However the author debating Shimeks
theory,
> > Bob
> > > Fenner I do believe, had. He had also done controlled experiments to
> > > determine if there were any positives to keeping high temps in tanks
for
> > a
> > > long period of time. There were none, and some of the corals suffered
> > from
> > > it. Bottom line is that the temps where we get our animals fluxes a
bit
> > > depending on the time of year. Our corals can handle these temp fluxes
> > for
> > a
> > > short period of time, but if you keep them there over an extended
period
> > of
> > > time, you increase your chance of having problems with the animals.
Why
> > > would you bother risking it?
> > >
> > > As I have said in each of my emails debating the use of DSBs, I am not
> > > saying they cant work. I have never said that. I am saying that people
> > need
> > > to be educated properly and entirely on the set up and maintanence of
> > them
> > > so that they can do it correctly from the beginning. They then must be
> > able
> > > to trouble shoot their system quickly and properly so that IF there is
a
> > > problem, they dont look at every things else as the culpret besides
the
> > sand
> > > bed, while thier tank continues on a downward spiral.
> > >
> > > There is the preverbial more than one way to skin a cat, and I think
> > that
> > is
> > > what we are dealing with here. I think both systems have their
positives
> > and
> > > negatives. My personal feeling is that the "outdated" berlin methods
> > > positives outweigh those of the DSB.
> > >
> > > IMHO,
> > > Shane C.
> > >
> > > PS. Bob Fenner, the author you recommended in another email writes for
> > FAMA.
> > > I think that any magazine has questionable articles, but they all have
> > > something to offer, again, IMO.
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Andrew Dillard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 4:09 PM
> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> > > >
> > > > I will always believe Shimek over any author, and hear is why: the
> > man
> > is
> > > > a
> > > > scientist. He and Eric Borneman are changing the way hobbyists
> > mantain
> > > > their tanks and there are certain people(like you all) that perfer
the
> > > > older
> > > > methods who continually bash them and "rip their theories to
> > threads"(ie
> > > > Kent Marine). There are thousands who have embraced Borneman and
> > Shimek's
> > > > theories and have much better reefs to show for it. I have
subscribed
> > to
> > > > this list since around December and the people on this list seem a
bit
> > > > outdated. Shimek has sicence to back up his theories, what do FAMA
> > and
> > > > their outdated writers have? Just this month they have an article
on
> > > > plenums and how to make one for your anemone tank. I wouldnt pay
> > $0.10
> > > > for
> > > > a copy of that crappy magazine. As for not including nutrient
export
> > in
> > > > his
> > > > articles, any tank needs nutrient export, not just a DSB tank. With
> > the
> > > > correct amount of sandbed critters there should be no dead spots and
> > with
> > > > macros in a sump your nitrates should be at zero. As for higher
> > > > temperatures, have you studied the temperatures in the wild? I
> > suppose
> > > > you
> > > > also keep your salinity at 1.022? Shimek's whole premise it to more
> > > > closely
> > > > copy nature's filtration, and many are having success, dont believe
> > me,
> > go
> > > > to any popular bulletin board and look at how many tanks there are
> > with
> > > > DSBs. I'm tired of defending these theories, go ask the man himself
> > at
> > > > the
> > > > next MACNA. A few of the outdated reefers in his workshop tried
> > > > contesting
> > > > his theories and were shot down fast and hard by scientific answers
> > that
> > > > made their heads spin and turn red. But what's a theory without
> > > > expirementation? I encourage you to try DSBs with the proper
> > requirements
> > > > they are a cheap, effective filtration.
> > > >
> > > > IMHO
> > > > Andrew
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Marco Delsordo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:27 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: silica sand ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I agree with Shane, a coral substrate to maintain the buffer and
> > calcium
> > > > levels is a good idea.
> > > > Don�t ever listen to "authors" that have no idea of what they are
> > talking
> > > > about, and make their theories in what they think is funny, like
> > Shimek.
> > > > Or
> > > > the ones that only want to sell.
> > > > You all should read Martin A. Moe, in his book Marine Systems and
> > > > Invertebrates he makes a serious study about susbstrates, and all
your
> > > > doubts should be covered.
> > > >
> > > > Marco
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Shane Clays [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > Sent: Viernes, 31 de Agosto de 2001 05:10 p.m.
> > > > To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
> > > > Subject: RE: silica sand ?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > hhhhmmm. Interesting. Personally, and this is just me and an
opinion,
> > and
> > > > we
> > > > all know they saying about opinions, but I am not really on the
Shimek
> > > > bandwagon. As a matter of fact, I dont really agree with most of his
> > > > theories. He has advocated keeping reef tanks at 82-83 degrees for a
> > while
> > > > now, and about 6 months ago, one of "the authors" of one of the
> > magazines
> > > > just ripped his high temp theories to shreds. This author (cant
> > remember
> > > > his
> > > > name or which mag it was in) also ripped many of his deep sand bed,
> > set
> > it
> > > > up and just ignore it type theories apart too. I dont agree with Ron
> > and
> > > > his
> > > > sand bed theories, and although he may have had success with them, I
> > think
> > > > he leaves many things, specifically what you have to do to properly
> > set
> > up
> > > > and support one of the sandbeds, out when he is advocating them. As
I
> > had
> > > > mentioned in my giant email a few days ago, he says you need some
type
> > of
> > > > export mechanism to export nutrients. I had read his material and
had
> > > > never
> > > > read that at all until I emailed him to "debate" some of his
theories.
> > > >
> > > > The whole concept of the calcium based substrate leaching calcium
back
> > > > into
> > > > the water for corals to use can be, and from what I have seen, is
> > > > completely
> > > > valid. The way it is supposed to work is that as the oxygen levels
in
> > a
> > > > sandbed lessen with depth, the pH in the sandbed is lowered as well.
> > At
> > a
> > > > certain point (7.2 I believe) the water is acidic enough to actually
> > > > slightly break down the alkaline, calcium based substrate. Through
> > slow
> > > > osmosis, the water, along with the calcium and alk buffers are
> > released
> > > > back
> > > > into the water, thus becoming bio-available for the animals in the
> > system.
> > > > Usually, the amounts released are so slight that we need to continue
> > > > supplementing our systems, but from what I know, it does in fact
> > occur.
> > > >
> > > > The point is, the pH deep in the sandbed and the pH in the tank are
> > > > completely different, or at least are supposed to be. That is why
the
> > > > calcium can become available with out melting the corals.
> > > >
> > > > I know you were just relaying what he said, so please dont take this
> > as
> > a
> > > > personal thing. This is just what I have read and seen.
> > > >
> > > > IMO,
> > > > Shane C.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: Andrew Dillard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 2:45 PM
> > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> > > > >
> > > > > have to jump in hear, silica sand is fine for use in a DSB, just
ask
> > Dr.
> > > > > Shimek yourself. Also, as I heard at MACNA calcium based sands
are
> > in
> > > > > fact
> > > > > not acting as a buffer. This is a myth as Dr. Shimek said, "if
your
> > > > > calcium
> > > > > based sand is actually dissolving in your aquarium, then your
corals
> > > > > should
> > > > > be melting as well." Dont beleive me, ask the Dr. at reefcentral
or
> > > > > reefs.org
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > IMHO
> > > > > Andrew
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 5:18 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: silica sand ?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I wouldnt use it either, the thing about it causing diatoms is
> > bull
> > it
> > > > > wont
> > > > > > dissolve readily enough with the pH our tanks are maintained at.
> > The
> > > > > problem
> > > > > > is silica sand causes problems with pH youll have a helluva time
> > > > trying
> > > > > to
> > > > > > keep your pH and alk stable.
> > > > > > ________________________________________
> > > > > >
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