This type of emotive response is exactly why I do not normally enter the Israeli-Palestinian debate. All I was suggesting was that the whole fault was not with the Israelis and look at the response. And I gain more perspective by reading a whole range of matters rather than just those who support what might be my leanings.It is difficult to find people who are not so committed to one side or the other that they cannot rationally discuss the issues. I don't know who is worse - the ardent pro-Israelis or the ardent pro-Palestinians. And as long as people are that way there is very little hope of resolving the Middle East problems.
Sad... Garth Cartledge At 09:32 PM 22/11/2004, Wesley Parish wrote: >Your numbers leave me aghast! > >" that the Arab nations with a couple of hundred >million people invaded Israel (with about a million people) with the >intention of "driving the Jews into then sea" in 1948 after the United >Nations sanctioned its existence," > >Where do you get your figures? > >"nor the fact that the PLO/Hezboula will not acknowledge Israel's right to >exist," > >That is a non-issue. Canada _doesn't_ acknowledge the US of A's "right to >exist", nor does Mexico. They recognized and recognize the US of A's >existence - its "right to exist" is kinda superfluous, ergo an inherent >absurdity. The Israeli government tacked that on to make recognition of >Israel too distasteful to the Palestinians, as it has no earthly relevance to >relations between a Palestinian state and the Jewish state. > >"that the PLO have unswervingly sworn to "drive the Jews into the sea" (i.e., >that they will never recognize Israel's right to exist and will continue to >fight and kill Jews until they have destroyed Israel)," > >And have you actually read the PLO Charter? What I said about pre-Israel >Sephardic disquiet about Zionism, etc, is actually echoed by the PLO >Charter's definitions - that Jews who were already in the Holy Land and had >been there for generations, were Palestinian. Ergo, the PLO Charter wasn't >aimed at them. > >"Israel,[...] becoming more and more locked into what appears to be >repression >but is actually being driven by a perceived need to defend themselves." > >Cui bono? Who does it benefit? Read Norman G. Finkelstein's "The Holocaust >Industry" to give yourself a little bit more perspective. Prepare to become >extremely angry! And while you're at it, read "Salam Pax : The Baghdad Blog" >on just what the general Arab-in-the-street thinks of the Western Perception >of a Need to Defend Themselves Against the Arab and Muslim Worlds. > >"that in 1949-50 Jordan in an act of self aggrandizement annexed the West >Bank," > >That's old news, and I covered it in a previous posting, commenting on >something of Francis Boyle's that one BlueWhale of a JewishWatchdog was >condemning. Francis Boyle's comments on the issue are rather more >authoritative than mine, BTW - his advice was taken by the Jordanians in >1988. > >"the fact that in 1948 the Arab States also told the Palestinians to leave >their homes while the Arab States armies defeated the Israelis and to return >when that defeat had taken place," > >This is one of those stupid lies that can make one tear one's hair out. >There's evidence that a lot of the Arab Palestinian villages didn't even have >radio, so how they heard the radio broadcasts that told them to leave and >clog up the roads thus preventing the Arab League's armies from reaching >their battlefields in a timely fashion, I'll never know. Perhaps Arabs are >born with inbuilt radio transceivers? Do Jews have tails? Do humans really >have six feet? Perhaps hexapodia is the reason! Or is five feet for the >women and six for the men? > >In closing, the power ratio between Israel and Palestine is about that of the >US versus Grenada. Moral equivalence doesn't even begin to get there - >particularly when one - the Zionist side - is willing to go on record as >defining Arabs as sub-human - and then cry "anti-Semite" when the justice of >that is questioned. You _do_ understand the joke about the boy who killed >his mother and father and then pled for clemency on the grounds he was an >orphan? > >Shalom > >Wesley Parish > >On Mon, 22 Nov 2004 20:30, Garth Cartledge wrote: > > While I do not dispute much of what you have posted and that the Israelis > > did some terrible things you have left out a whole lot of relevant matters > > and placed other in an incorrect perspective - giving a totally false > > picture. You have dealt with none of the Arab States actions nor the fact > > that the PLO/Hezboula will not acknowledge Israel's right to exist, the > > fact that in 1948 the Arab States also told the Palestinians to leave their > > homes while the Arab States armies defeated the Israelis and to return when > > that defeat had taken place, that the Arab nations with a couple of hundred > > million people invaded Israel (with about a million people) with the > > intention of "driving the Jews into then sea" in 1948 after the United > > Nations sanctioned its existence, that in 1949-50 Jordan in an act of self > > aggrandizement annexed the West Bank, that the PLO have unswervingly sworn > > to "drive the Jews into the sea" (i.e., that they will never recognize > > Israel's right to exist and will continue to fight and kill Jews until they > > have destroyed Israel), that food convoys taking food to Jews in Jerusalem > > were attacked and when captured the Jews slaughtered like animals, that > > when the Israelis wanted to talk to eh Arab States after the 1967 war about > > giving back the capture West Bank the Arab States refused to talk to them, > > you have left out the machinations of the Arab states to keep the > > Palestinians as refugees in the camps so that they could be used as a > > weapon against Israel.... I could go on for some considerable time as I > > have just scratched the surface.... > > > > You have left out the bad side of Arab/Palestinian behaviour - indeed they > > are passive victims > > > > There is considerably more than this rather one sided posting. The > > Palestinians are in a terrible position, without hope or much > > future. Israel, in its own way, is also in a terrible position, becoming > > more and more locked into what appears to be repression but is actually > > being driven by a perceived need to defend themselves. > > > > But the point of this posting is, with respect, to say that this history > > leaves out so many relevant issues (even in general terms),as to make it > > unreliable > > > > Garth Cartledge > > > > " Despotism sits nowhere so secure as under the effigy and ensigns of > > Freedom", From Imaginary Conversations of Greeks and Romans (1853) by > > Walter Savage Landor 1775-1864 > > ><snip> >-- >Wesley Parish >* * * >Clinersterton beademung - in all of love. RIP James Blish >* * * >Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?" >You ask, "What is the most important thing?" >Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata." >I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people." > > > > ----- > / o o \ >===OO=====OO============================================= >(4)Portals (2)News Wikis (2)Conferences - No BuSHIT! >Start here: http://pnews.org/ (On Internet since 1982) >http://pnews.org/PhpWiki/ (West Coast News Wiki) >http://g0lem.net/PhpWiki/ (East Coast News Wiki) >========================================================= > FIGHT THE RIGHT! >================== > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. 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