On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:13 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote:
I think it's going to depend on what you mean by "equal say" in rsyslog
development.
But I think we know this, no? It means agreeing on how something gets
implemented, designed, it means trusting others to commit, it means sharing
responsibilities, etc. etc. You must have been on at least *some* Apache
mailing lists over the years where this sort of work happens! :)
dmany of the most successful opensource projects don't allow multiple people to
commit.
rsyslog is already very open in terms of discussing how things are implemented
and designed. in the end it boils down to who is doing the work. Everyone else
can kibitz and try to convice the oens writign the code that they are wrong, but
in the end it's the ones who are writing the code (or paying them to write the
code) who make the final decision on how it's implemented.
Sharing responsibilities is a social issue, not a policy/ownership issue, who is
trusted. This isn't something that you want to cast in stone. But people who are
going to share in the responsibilities don't show up fully formed and ready to
step in, they hae to develop over time, becoming familiar with the project, it's
culture, and the other people.
As I see it, Adiscon has say in rsyslog only in that they are paying
people to work on it. If there were others contributing code, and effort,
those others would have say based on the effort they are contributing.
At the end of the day it's still Adiscon that lets something in or rejects.
Or doesn't have the man power to review contributions. Or has to not
implement some features because they are not sponsored. That would go away
if thigns were more open.
I disagree with this. Changing to Apache would not provide more manpower to
review contributions.
You are also assuming that Rainer is being told what to accept and not accept by
his management at Adiscon. That does not match reality in my experience.
It doesn't have to be Apache. It can be
Eclipse. It can be Github. It's really more about willingness/desire to
open a bit more. Not to just *accept* patches, but to invite people in.
e.g. on Github one can form "organizations" - groups of individual Github
users who are all together working on a project, with equal commit rights,
etc.
I'll address this in another message.
David Lang
I have never seen anything ever imply that anyone was doing anything other
than licensing decisions for the benefit of Adiscon, and that only in terms
of ways to generate revenue to support rsyslog development.
logging is infrastructure and not sexy, people look at the problem and
decide to throw everything out and write something new, and then after a
while they start running into the problems with legacy stuff and the 'new'
project starts looking more and more like the 'old' projects that were
rejected :-)
Yup, happens over and over :)
Though sometimes good things happen. Examples:
* ncsa httpd => apache httpd => ngingx
* Lucene => Solr => Elasticsearch (let's say)
Things do evolve though. Slowly.
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Hi,
I'll keep it brief (24h) and won't jump into the benefits of going to
Apache (or Eclipse even, I imagine - they pretty much copied/follow the
same philosophy, from what I know) because there are a few "hard" factors:
1) Is Adiscon open to being more open to more *people* having equal say in
Rsyslog development, future, design, etc. etc.?
2) Does Adiscon have enough faith they would not lose business because
they
would no longer be the sole Rsyslog guardians?
If the answer to either of these is "no", then there is no point
discussing
the benefits.
I can't answer 1) for Adiscon. But I know from experience that Adiscon
would not have to fear 2). If anything, the demand will grow.
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:37 AM, Rainer Gerhards
<[email protected]>wrote:
Let's keep the info flowing, but one important point: doesn't that mean
ASL
is required? That's a medium problem, would require roughly 2 to 3 month
of
re-coding (best guess) features that are currently covered by GPL code,
only.
Any thoughts?
Rainer
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rainer Gerhards
<[email protected]>wrote:
Just a tiny note due to overload ;)
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Radu Gheorghe <
[email protected]
wrote:
Hi,
I'll leave it to Otis to give more details, because he's an Apache
committer, but I believe there's a misunderstanding here.
An Apache project can still be backed up by a commercial company. Lots
of
projects are, like Solr, Flume (another logging product!) and so on. The
main advantage I see is that it's easier for the community to
contribute
and drive the project forward. It's a model that seems to work for
open-source software, and lots of projects who got in there are doing
very
well - very active, growing, lots of people offering
consulting&support&professional services, building more complex
products
on
top of them, packaging them in various ways, etc
I think this is an idea that would help drive more contributions and
hopefully solve the 24 hours/day problem that keeps popping up lately,
more
and more as rsyslog gets more attention. To prove the "attention"
theory,
let's look at some trends for rsyslog and some other products that came
up
in discussions lately:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=rsyslog%2C%
20logstash%2C%20syslog-ng&cmpt=q
And the mailing list traffic:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.rsyslog
Maybe going to Apache would be a crazy idea in the sense that it
requires
following that procedure. And people already have too little time.
Maybe a
less crazy idea is just to put it on GitHub or somewhere similar where
it
would be easy to just send pull requests.
Well... done so 6 month ago ;) This is the initial blog post with some
progress:
http://blog.gerhards.net/2013/05/moving-to-github.html
Was announced at several places. Overall feedback is "not bad, but no
real
difference".
Rainer
This will not only make code
patches easier, but I'm thinking at documentation, tests, issues, all
in
one place.
Not only contributions would be easier, but it would make things would
be
more visible. Your github profile counts for many as some sort of CV.
The
more&better you contribute, the more awesome you are (think job
opportunities and such). For the project, it would make it easier to
see
how it evolves: contributions, issues, wiki - again, all in one place.
That
is familiar to many.
Apache takes this idea to a higher level, as far as I understand, so
crazy
could be crazy-good. *Could be* - I don't know, really, I'm lacking
knowledge about how Adiscon and Apache works, although I have some idea
about both. Otis, maybe you can say some more about the advantages (and
disadvantages)?
And I'm obviously curious about what the Adiscon guys have to say about
this.
Best regards,
Radu
2013/12/11 Boylan, James <[email protected]>
I agree with David. As a business who developsand supports a product,
I
can't see any reason for Adiscon to do so unless they decide to no
longer
support and develop the software.
-- James
-- Sent from my mobile --
----- Reply message -----
From: "David Lang" <[email protected]>
To: "rsyslog-users" <[email protected]>
Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache?
Date: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 3:09 PM
not being an adiscon person, my first question is why they would want
to do
that?
David Lang
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:05:11 -0500
From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]>
Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache?
Hi,
Maybe this is a completely crazy question, but has Adiscon ever
considered
moving Rsyslog to Apache?
Thanks,
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a
myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a
myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a
myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a
myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad
of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you
DON'T LIKE THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of
sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE
THAT.
_______________________________________________
rsyslog mailing list
http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog
http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/
What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards
NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of
sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE
THAT.
