On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 8:12 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: > > Hi, >> >> 24h is calling... >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:10 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:13 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> I think it's going to depend on what you mean by "equal say" in rsyslog >>>> >>>>> development. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But I think we know this, no? It means agreeing on how something gets >>>> implemented, designed, it means trusting others to commit, it means >>>> sharing >>>> responsibilities, etc. etc. You must have been on at least *some* >>>> Apache >>>> mailing lists over the years where this sort of work happens! :) >>>> >>>> >>> dmany of the most successful opensource projects don't allow multiple >>> people to commit. >>> >>> >> Yes, agreed, it's not exclusive and absolute. Btw. what examples do you >> have in mind? >> > > linux kernel, busybox, I'd have to go looking to find more. > > > rsyslog is already very open in terms of discussing how things are >> >>> implemented and designed. in the end it boils down to who is doing the >>> work. Everyone else can kibitz and try to convice the oens writign the >>> code >>> that they are wrong, but in the end it's the ones who are writing the >>> code >>> (or paying them to write the code) who make the final decision on how >>> it's >>> implemented. >>> >>> >> Agreed. But by allowing more people to co-own, you invite more people to >> contribute. >> > > granting people ownship without them earning it is a recipe for disaster. > How they earn it is a good question. > > do you thing that any random person should be able to modify rsyslog > without their code being reviewed? I don't think that you do. So the > question is who is qualified to review the code and do the contribution > without further discussion or review. > > Right now, there are _very_ few people whith that sort of knowledge of > rsyslog and the problem space. I don't think that any of those people are > complainign that they don't have the ability to commit their code. > > I know a handful of people which I immediately would grant commit access. But they never asked and usually don't send pull request but patches. I keep it as they like it (git fecth is easier for me).
Rainer > Sharing responsibilities is a social issue, not a policy/ownership issue, >> >>> who is trusted. This isn't something that you want to cast in stone. But >>> people who are going to share in the responsibilities don't show up fully >>> formed and ready to step in, they hae to develop over time, becoming >>> familiar with the project, it's culture, and the other people. >>> >> >> >> Right. In the end can they earn the right to commit in case of Rsyslog? >> Or do their contributions always have to go through somebody else's 24h >> bottleneck? >> > > right now, like a lot of projects, they always need to go through a > maintainer. But if there were enough contributers for this to be a problem, > the contributers would also be the solution. > > the rsyslog codebase just isn't that large, if you were to have a bunch of > people commiting changes directly, they would quickly start stepping on > each other's toes and causing problems. So there would need to be some way > to coordinate changes that effect the work that others are doing. When you > start needing to do this coordination, whoever does the coordination > becomes the bottleneck, just like a committer, so it actually works really > well for the coordinater to be the committer and not have the people they > are coordinating be able to commit directly. Git (and github) support this > model _really_ well, which isn't surprising because Linus wrote git to > direcly support this sort of workflow. > > > As I see it, Adiscon has say in rsyslog only in that they are paying >> >>> people to work on it. If there were others contributing code, and effort, >>>>> those others would have say based on the effort they are contributing. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> At the end of the day it's still Adiscon that lets something in or >>>> rejects. >>>> Or doesn't have the man power to review contributions. Or has to not >>>> implement some features because they are not sponsored. That would go >>>> away >>>> if thigns were more open. >>>> >>>> >>> I disagree with this. Changing to Apache would not provide more manpower >>> to review contributions. >>> >>> >> It actually would. >> Good contributors are invited to become committers. >> More committers means more contrib review manpower. >> I've seen this over and over over the years. >> > > and I've seen massive projects like linux-kernel work without granting > lots of contributers. > > I've also seem projects like the *BSDs have major problems centered around > who is allowed to be a committer and blocking commiter access. > > > You are also assuming that Rainer is being told what to accept and not >> >>> accept by his management at Adiscon. That does not match reality in my >>> experience. >>> >> >> >> Oh, no no, wasn't trying to say that. >> But I do *think* that it is *Rainer* who ultimately decides what goes in >> and what gets dropped. If that is so, that sounds like a bottleneck to >> me. >> > > Linus ultimately decides what goes into the Linux kernel, he is a > potential bottleneck, but if rsyslog is limited to no faster development > than the linux kernel, I think there's enough headroom that we don't need > to worry :-) > > David Lang > > _______________________________________________ > rsyslog mailing list > http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog > http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ > What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards > NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad > of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you > DON'T LIKE THAT. > _______________________________________________ rsyslog mailing list http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE THAT.
