Hi, 24h is calling...
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:10 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: > > Hi, >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:13 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I think it's going to depend on what you mean by "equal say" in rsyslog >>> development. >>> >>> >> But I think we know this, no? It means agreeing on how something gets >> implemented, designed, it means trusting others to commit, it means >> sharing >> responsibilities, etc. etc. You must have been on at least *some* Apache >> mailing lists over the years where this sort of work happens! :) >> > > dmany of the most successful opensource projects don't allow multiple > people to commit. > Yes, agreed, it's not exclusive and absolute. Btw. what examples do you have in mind? rsyslog is already very open in terms of discussing how things are > implemented and designed. in the end it boils down to who is doing the > work. Everyone else can kibitz and try to convice the oens writign the code > that they are wrong, but in the end it's the ones who are writing the code > (or paying them to write the code) who make the final decision on how it's > implemented. > Agreed. But by allowing more people to co-own, you invite more people to contribute. Sharing responsibilities is a social issue, not a policy/ownership issue, > who is trusted. This isn't something that you want to cast in stone. But > people who are going to share in the responsibilities don't show up fully > formed and ready to step in, they hae to develop over time, becoming > familiar with the project, it's culture, and the other people. Right. In the end can they earn the right to commit in case of Rsyslog? Or do their contributions always have to go through somebody else's 24h bottleneck? As I see it, Adiscon has say in rsyslog only in that they are paying >>> people to work on it. If there were others contributing code, and effort, >>> those others would have say based on the effort they are contributing. >>> >>> >> At the end of the day it's still Adiscon that lets something in or >> rejects. >> Or doesn't have the man power to review contributions. Or has to not >> implement some features because they are not sponsored. That would go >> away >> if thigns were more open. >> > > I disagree with this. Changing to Apache would not provide more manpower > to review contributions. > It actually would. Good contributors are invited to become committers. More committers means more contrib review manpower. I've seen this over and over over the years. You are also assuming that Rainer is being told what to accept and not > accept by his management at Adiscon. That does not match reality in my > experience. Oh, no no, wasn't trying to say that. But I do *think* that it is *Rainer* who ultimately decides what goes in and what gets dropped. If that is so, that sounds like a bottleneck to me. Otis -- Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ > > > It doesn't have to be Apache. It can be >> Eclipse. It can be Github. It's really more about willingness/desire to >> open a bit more. Not to just *accept* patches, but to invite people in. >> e.g. on Github one can form "organizations" - groups of individual Github >> users who are all together working on a project, with equal commit rights, >> etc. >> > > I'll address this in another message. > > David Lang > > > >> I have never seen anything ever imply that anyone was doing anything >>> other >>> than licensing decisions for the benefit of Adiscon, and that only in >>> terms >>> of ways to generate revenue to support rsyslog development. >>> >>> logging is infrastructure and not sexy, people look at the problem and >>> decide to throw everything out and write something new, and then after a >>> while they start running into the problems with legacy stuff and the >>> 'new' >>> project starts looking more and more like the 'old' projects that were >>> rejected :-) >>> >> >> >> Yup, happens over and over :) >> Though sometimes good things happen. Examples: >> * ncsa httpd => apache httpd => ngingx >> * Lucene => Solr => Elasticsearch (let's say) >> >> Things do evolve though. Slowly. >> >> Otis >> -- >> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >> >> >> >> >>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>>> >>>> I'll keep it brief (24h) and won't jump into the benefits of going to >>>> Apache (or Eclipse even, I imagine - they pretty much copied/follow the >>>> same philosophy, from what I know) because there are a few "hard" >>>> factors: >>>> >>>> 1) Is Adiscon open to being more open to more *people* having equal say >>>> in >>>> Rsyslog development, future, design, etc. etc.? >>>> 2) Does Adiscon have enough faith they would not lose business because >>>> they >>>> would no longer be the sole Rsyslog guardians? >>>> >>>> If the answer to either of these is "no", then there is no point >>>> discussing >>>> the benefits. >>>> I can't answer 1) for Adiscon. But I know from experience that Adiscon >>>> would not have to fear 2). If anything, the demand will grow. >>>> >>>> Otis >>>> -- >>>> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >>>> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:37 AM, Rainer Gerhards >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> Let's keep the info flowing, but one important point: doesn't that mean >>>> >>>>> ASL >>>>> is required? That's a medium problem, would require roughly 2 to 3 >>>>> month >>>>> of >>>>> re-coding (best guess) features that are currently covered by GPL code, >>>>> only. >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Rainer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rainer Gerhards >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Just a tiny note due to overload ;) >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Radu Gheorghe < >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll leave it to Otis to give more details, because he's an Apache >>>>>>> committer, but I believe there's a misunderstanding here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An Apache project can still be backed up by a commercial company. >>>>>>> Lots >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> projects are, like Solr, Flume (another logging product!) and so on. >>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>>>> main advantage I see is that it's easier for the community to >>>>>>> contribute >>>>>>> and drive the project forward. It's a model that seems to work for >>>>>>> open-source software, and lots of projects who got in there are doing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> well - very active, growing, lots of people offering >>>>>> >>>>>>> consulting&support&professional services, building more complex >>>>>>> products >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> top of them, packaging them in various ways, etc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think this is an idea that would help drive more contributions and >>>>>>> hopefully solve the 24 hours/day problem that keeps popping up >>>>>>> lately, >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> and more as rsyslog gets more attention. To prove the "attention" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> theory, >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> let's look at some trends for rsyslog and some other products that >>>>>> came >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> up >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> in discussions lately: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=rsyslog%2C% >>>>>>> >>>>>> 20logstash%2C%20syslog-ng&cmpt=q >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And the mailing list traffic: >>>>>>> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.rsyslog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe going to Apache would be a crazy idea in the sense that it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> requires >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> following that procedure. And people already have too little time. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe a >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> less crazy idea is just to put it on GitHub or somewhere similar where >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> would be easy to just send pull requests. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well... done so 6 month ago ;) This is the initial blog post with some >>>>>> progress: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://blog.gerhards.net/2013/05/moving-to-github.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Was announced at several places. Overall feedback is "not bad, but no >>>>>> >>>>>> real >>>>> >>>>> difference". >>>>>> >>>>>> Rainer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This will not only make code >>>>>> >>>>>>> patches easier, but I'm thinking at documentation, tests, issues, all >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> one place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not only contributions would be easier, but it would make things >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> more visible. Your github profile counts for many as some sort of CV. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> more&better you contribute, the more awesome you are (think job >>>>>> >>>>>>> opportunities and such). For the project, it would make it easier to >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> how it evolves: contributions, issues, wiki - again, all in one >>>>>>> place. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> is familiar to many. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apache takes this idea to a higher level, as far as I understand, so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> crazy >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> could be crazy-good. *Could be* - I don't know, really, I'm lacking >>>>>> >>>>>>> knowledge about how Adiscon and Apache works, although I have some >>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> about both. Otis, maybe you can say some more about the advantages >>>>>>> (and >>>>>>> disadvantages)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I'm obviously curious about what the Adiscon guys have to say >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Radu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2013/12/11 Boylan, James <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with David. As a business who developsand supports a >>>>>>> product, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> can't see any reason for Adiscon to do so unless they decide to no >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> longer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> support and develop the software. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- James >>>>>>>> -- Sent from my mobile -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Reply message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "David Lang" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: "rsyslog-users" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache? >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 3:09 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> not being an adiscon person, my first question is why they would >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to do >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:05:11 -0500 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe this is a completely crazy question, but has Adiscon ever >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> considered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> moving Rsyslog to Apache? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Otis >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >>>>>>>>> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>>> >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>>> >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>> myriad >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> rsyslog mailing list >>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> rsyslog mailing list >> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >> DON'T LIKE THAT. >> >> _______________________________________________ > rsyslog mailing list > http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog > http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ > What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards > NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad > of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you > DON'T LIKE THAT. > _______________________________________________ rsyslog mailing list http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE THAT.
