Hi, Thanks David & Rainer. The last few emails were very constructive and pragmatic. Based on what I heard I'd think you'd want to push things towards Github. Ignore Apache for now at least. * Make Github *the only* source (i.e. not Adiscon git) * Make https://github.com/rgerhards/rsyslog/blob/master/doc/build_from_repo.htmlmore prominent (and markup, not HTML) * Link it from rsyslog.com. Your github repo clearly doesn't have much Google juice. Maybe David can pull some strings? ;)
Thanks for being open. Otis -- Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 1:52 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: > On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: > > Hi, >> >> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:18 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> how is an Apache project more "open" than rsyslog currently is? >>> >>> >> I have limited Rsyslog "feel". But it seems there is a single company >> behind it and the 24h problem was mentioned more times on the list in the >> last week than Kafka, so that says something ;) >> > > well, comments of the 24 hour problem happen any time there is a to-do > list and people ask why things aren't done. a project can have 1000 active > developers and still have a 24h problem. A higher user:developer ratio > makes this mroe obvious, but it's not clear how chaning to Apache would > change this. > > > Rsyslog is probably not getting a huge number of patches on a regular >> basis >> and that is why Rainer can keep up. If that were to change patches would >> grow stale and contributor would be put off. This won't happen any time >> soon, I think, because I suspect growth is limited with the current >> development model. But that limited growth is what Rainer maaaaaaaay want >> to change. Or not - I don't know, but would love to find out, that's why >> I >> asked the question. >> > > well, if we started getting a lot of patches, we would probably get > several contributers who are doing a lot of patches, and the kernel model > of 'trusted lieutenants' would probably develop. particular contributers > would work in particular areas, and they would review patches for those > areas and send them up to Rainer for final acceptance. > > This scales very well and can address this limit. > > But since we are so far from this limit, it doesn't make sense to make > major changes and loose months of development work when this isn't a > problem now or in the reasonable future. There are a huge number of > potential problems that could happen in the future. if we tried to prevent > all of them now, development would stop for years and 99%+ of the problems > would never have happened anyway. Wait to solve a problem until it's at > least near. > > Rainer would love to get more contributions from people. > > > Is it because it would allow companies to make proprietary forks of >> rsyslog >> >>> and not contribute back? (something that currently they need to get a >>> license from Adiscon to do) >>> >>> >> Hm, no, I don't think this is a problem to be concerned with at all. In >> the long run it pays to contribute back. Not very many people want to >> fork >> a healthy project. >> >> or is there some other benefit? >> >>> >>> >> See the mention of growth above. But if growth, more contributors, even >> more corporate backing (i.e. company X paying its employees to work on >> Rsyslog because their product relies on Rsyslog) is not interesting, then >> maybe the current model is OK. >> > > moving a project to apache doesn't magically make it grow. It only makes > it grow if it fixes some problem that was preventing growth. > > A log of companies have made projects 'open' on the promise that it would > get them lots of new developers for no extra effort, and it almost never > ends up working that way. > > This sort of thing is why I am hammering on details of what is expected to > change. Generalities don't convince me. > > > >> Rainer and Adiscon have been very open in terms of taking suggestions >>> from >>> outside and implementing sponsored improvements when they decided that >>> the >>> suggestions were too large a chunk to fit in the time budget for free. So >>> unless you expect more people to be able to tell Rainer what to work on, >>> the development direction would not be any more open than it is now. >>> >>> >> Aha, I think this points out something important. >> Suggestions are good. >> Contributions are better. >> Being able to suggest + contribute + commit - priceless. >> > > Actually, I disagree. too many peopel with commit privileges are a > problem, see the wikipedia dueling edits as an example. > > Multiple committers only work when they are in very close agreement almost > all the time. > > > And it's not like with being open the business of "sponsored features" >> goes >> away! There are *tons* of companies whose business model is that + >> training + support + .... while the code is all fully open, has a *big* >> community around it, etc. etc. >> >> Openness would help with precisely what you outlined here. It's not about >> "tell Rainer what to work on". It's about "I'll do it, including testing >> and documenting and committing and later answering community's questions >> about it and becoming an expert and writing a book about it and thus >> giving >> Rsyslog even more exposure and ...." you see how it goes, it's a chain >> reaction. >> > > except for the commit portion, everything you say is already possible, adn > there are enough very good projects where people do everything else you > talk about without the ability to directly commit themselves that I > disagree with the idea that commit privileges are critical. > > David Lang > > > Otis >> -- >> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >> >> >> >> >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: >>> >>> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:09:50 -0500 >>> >>>> >>>> From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]> >>>> Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>> To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>> Subject: Re: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache? >>>> >>>> >>>> It does mean that. Anything that is pluggable and that is GPL and that >>>> doesn't have to be in the Apache repo and could be pulled in at "make >>>> time" >>>> could stay under any other license. I've seen this done before. >>>> >>>> Re 2-3 months of work. One way to look at this is that by opening up >>>> Rsyslog more you'd get more contributions (this *does* take time and >>>> nurturing effort, but it's a win in the long term). If I were you, I >>>> would >>>> specifically "advertise" pieces that are under GPL and that are top >>>> priority to rewrite. Not by opening a hard to spot issue, but in some >>>> much >>>> more prominent fashion. >>>> >>>> Otis >>>> -- >>>> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >>>> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:37 AM, Rainer Gerhards >>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>> >>>> Let's keep the info flowing, but one important point: doesn't that mean >>>> >>>>> ASL >>>>> is required? That's a medium problem, would require roughly 2 to 3 >>>>> month >>>>> of >>>>> re-coding (best guess) features that are currently covered by GPL code, >>>>> only. >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Rainer >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rainer Gerhards >>>>> <[email protected]>wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Just a tiny note due to overload ;) >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Radu Gheorghe < >>>>>> [email protected] >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Hi, >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I'll leave it to Otis to give more details, because he's an Apache >>>>>>> committer, but I believe there's a misunderstanding here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> An Apache project can still be backed up by a commercial company. >>>>>>> Lots >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> projects are, like Solr, Flume (another logging product!) and so on. >>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>>>> main advantage I see is that it's easier for the community to >>>>>>> contribute >>>>>>> and drive the project forward. It's a model that seems to work for >>>>>>> open-source software, and lots of projects who got in there are doing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> very >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> well - very active, growing, lots of people offering >>>>>> >>>>>>> consulting&support&professional services, building more complex >>>>>>> products >>>>>>> on >>>>>>> top of them, packaging them in various ways, etc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think this is an idea that would help drive more contributions and >>>>>>> hopefully solve the 24 hours/day problem that keeps popping up >>>>>>> lately, >>>>>>> more >>>>>>> and more as rsyslog gets more attention. To prove the "attention" >>>>>>> >>>>>>> theory, >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> let's look at some trends for rsyslog and some other products that >>>>>> came >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> up >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> in discussions lately: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=rsyslog%2C% >>>>>>> >>>>>> 20logstash%2C%20syslog-ng&cmpt=q >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> And the mailing list traffic: >>>>>>> http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.rsyslog >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe going to Apache would be a crazy idea in the sense that it >>>>>>> >>>>>>> requires >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> following that procedure. And people already have too little time. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Maybe a >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> less crazy idea is just to put it on GitHub or somewhere similar where >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> it >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> would be easy to just send pull requests. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Well... done so 6 month ago ;) This is the initial blog post with some >>>>>> progress: >>>>>> >>>>>> http://blog.gerhards.net/2013/05/moving-to-github.html >>>>>> >>>>>> Was announced at several places. Overall feedback is "not bad, but no >>>>>> >>>>>> real >>>>> >>>>> difference". >>>>>> >>>>>> Rainer >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This will not only make code >>>>>> >>>>>>> patches easier, but I'm thinking at documentation, tests, issues, all >>>>>>> in >>>>>>> one place. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Not only contributions would be easier, but it would make things >>>>>>> would >>>>>>> >>>>>>> be >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> more visible. Your github profile counts for many as some sort of CV. >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> more&better you contribute, the more awesome you are (think job >>>>>> >>>>>>> opportunities and such). For the project, it would make it easier to >>>>>>> see >>>>>>> how it evolves: contributions, issues, wiki - again, all in one >>>>>>> place. >>>>>>> That >>>>>>> is familiar to many. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Apache takes this idea to a higher level, as far as I understand, so >>>>>>> >>>>>>> crazy >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> could be crazy-good. *Could be* - I don't know, really, I'm lacking >>>>>> >>>>>>> knowledge about how Adiscon and Apache works, although I have some >>>>>>> idea >>>>>>> about both. Otis, maybe you can say some more about the advantages >>>>>>> (and >>>>>>> disadvantages)? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And I'm obviously curious about what the Adiscon guys have to say >>>>>>> about >>>>>>> this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards, >>>>>>> Radu >>>>>>> >>>>>>> 2013/12/11 Boylan, James <[email protected]> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree with David. As a business who developsand supports a >>>>>>> product, >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> can't see any reason for Adiscon to do so unless they decide to no >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> longer >>>>>>> >>>>>>> support and develop the software. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- James >>>>>>>> -- Sent from my mobile -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> ----- Reply message ----- >>>>>>>> From: "David Lang" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: "rsyslog-users" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache? >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 3:09 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> not being an adiscon person, my first question is why they would >>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> to do >>>>>>> >>>>>>> that? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Lang >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:05:11 -0500 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>> Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe this is a completely crazy question, but has Adiscon ever >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> considered >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> moving Rsyslog to Apache? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>> Otis >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics >>>>>>>>> Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/ >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if >>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>>> >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>>> >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>>>> myriad >>>>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> >>>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a >>>>> myriad >>>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> >>>> rsyslog mailing list >>>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >>>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> >>> rsyslog mailing list >>> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >>> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >>> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >>> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >>> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >>> DON'T LIKE THAT. >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> rsyslog mailing list >> http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog >> http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ >> What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards >> NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad >> of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you >> DON'T LIKE THAT. >> >> _______________________________________________ > rsyslog mailing list > http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog > http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ > What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards > NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad > of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you > DON'T LIKE THAT. > _______________________________________________ rsyslog mailing list http://lists.adiscon.net/mailman/listinfo/rsyslog http://www.rsyslog.com/professional-services/ What's up with rsyslog? Follow https://twitter.com/rgerhards NOTE WELL: This is a PUBLIC mailing list, posts are ARCHIVED by a myriad of sites beyond our control. PLEASE UNSUBSCRIBE and DO NOT POST if you DON'T LIKE THAT.
