On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 12:18 PM, David Lang <[email protected]> wrote:
how is an Apache project more "open" than rsyslog currently is?
I have limited Rsyslog "feel". But it seems there is a single company
behind it and the 24h problem was mentioned more times on the list in the
last week than Kafka, so that says something ;)
well, comments of the 24 hour problem happen any time there is a to-do
list and people ask why things aren't done. a project can have 1000 active
developers and still have a 24h problem. A higher user:developer ratio
makes this mroe obvious, but it's not clear how chaning to Apache would
change this.
Rsyslog is probably not getting a huge number of patches on a regular
basis
and that is why Rainer can keep up. If that were to change patches would
grow stale and contributor would be put off. This won't happen any time
soon, I think, because I suspect growth is limited with the current
development model. But that limited growth is what Rainer maaaaaaaay want
to change. Or not - I don't know, but would love to find out, that's why
I
asked the question.
well, if we started getting a lot of patches, we would probably get
several contributers who are doing a lot of patches, and the kernel model
of 'trusted lieutenants' would probably develop. particular contributers
would work in particular areas, and they would review patches for those
areas and send them up to Rainer for final acceptance.
This scales very well and can address this limit.
But since we are so far from this limit, it doesn't make sense to make
major changes and loose months of development work when this isn't a
problem now or in the reasonable future. There are a huge number of
potential problems that could happen in the future. if we tried to prevent
all of them now, development would stop for years and 99%+ of the problems
would never have happened anyway. Wait to solve a problem until it's at
least near.
Rainer would love to get more contributions from people.
Is it because it would allow companies to make proprietary forks of
rsyslog
and not contribute back? (something that currently they need to get a
license from Adiscon to do)
Hm, no, I don't think this is a problem to be concerned with at all. In
the long run it pays to contribute back. Not very many people want to
fork
a healthy project.
or is there some other benefit?
See the mention of growth above. But if growth, more contributors, even
more corporate backing (i.e. company X paying its employees to work on
Rsyslog because their product relies on Rsyslog) is not interesting, then
maybe the current model is OK.
moving a project to apache doesn't magically make it grow. It only makes
it grow if it fixes some problem that was preventing growth.
A log of companies have made projects 'open' on the promise that it would
get them lots of new developers for no extra effort, and it almost never
ends up working that way.
This sort of thing is why I am hammering on details of what is expected to
change. Generalities don't convince me.
Rainer and Adiscon have been very open in terms of taking suggestions
from
outside and implementing sponsored improvements when they decided that
the
suggestions were too large a chunk to fit in the time budget for free. So
unless you expect more people to be able to tell Rainer what to work on,
the development direction would not be any more open than it is now.
Aha, I think this points out something important.
Suggestions are good.
Contributions are better.
Being able to suggest + contribute + commit - priceless.
Actually, I disagree. too many peopel with commit privileges are a
problem, see the wikipedia dueling edits as an example.
Multiple committers only work when they are in very close agreement almost
all the time.
And it's not like with being open the business of "sponsored features"
goes
away! There are *tons* of companies whose business model is that +
training + support + .... while the code is all fully open, has a *big*
community around it, etc. etc.
Openness would help with precisely what you outlined here. It's not about
"tell Rainer what to work on". It's about "I'll do it, including testing
and documenting and committing and later answering community's questions
about it and becoming an expert and writing a book about it and thus
giving
Rsyslog even more exposure and ...." you see how it goes, it's a chain
reaction.
except for the commit portion, everything you say is already possible, adn
there are enough very good projects where people do everything else you
talk about without the ability to directly commit themselves that I
disagree with the idea that commit privileges are critical.
David Lang
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
David Lang
On Thu, 12 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2013 12:09:50 -0500
From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]>
Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache?
It does mean that. Anything that is pluggable and that is GPL and that
doesn't have to be in the Apache repo and could be pulled in at "make
time"
could stay under any other license. I've seen this done before.
Re 2-3 months of work. One way to look at this is that by opening up
Rsyslog more you'd get more contributions (this *does* take time and
nurturing effort, but it's a win in the long term). If I were you, I
would
specifically "advertise" pieces that are under GPL and that are top
priority to rewrite. Not by opening a hard to spot issue, but in some
much
more prominent fashion.
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 5:37 AM, Rainer Gerhards
<[email protected]>wrote:
Let's keep the info flowing, but one important point: doesn't that mean
ASL
is required? That's a medium problem, would require roughly 2 to 3
month
of
re-coding (best guess) features that are currently covered by GPL code,
only.
Any thoughts?
Rainer
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Rainer Gerhards
<[email protected]>wrote:
Just a tiny note due to overload ;)
On Thu, Dec 12, 2013 at 11:05 AM, Radu Gheorghe <
[email protected]
wrote:
Hi,
I'll leave it to Otis to give more details, because he's an Apache
committer, but I believe there's a misunderstanding here.
An Apache project can still be backed up by a commercial company.
Lots
of
projects are, like Solr, Flume (another logging product!) and so on.
The
main advantage I see is that it's easier for the community to
contribute
and drive the project forward. It's a model that seems to work for
open-source software, and lots of projects who got in there are doing
very
well - very active, growing, lots of people offering
consulting&support&professional services, building more complex
products
on
top of them, packaging them in various ways, etc
I think this is an idea that would help drive more contributions and
hopefully solve the 24 hours/day problem that keeps popping up
lately,
more
and more as rsyslog gets more attention. To prove the "attention"
theory,
let's look at some trends for rsyslog and some other products that
came
up
in discussions lately:
http://www.google.com/trends/explore#q=rsyslog%2C%
20logstash%2C%20syslog-ng&cmpt=q
And the mailing list traffic:
http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.sysutils.rsyslog
Maybe going to Apache would be a crazy idea in the sense that it
requires
following that procedure. And people already have too little time.
Maybe a
less crazy idea is just to put it on GitHub or somewhere similar where
it
would be easy to just send pull requests.
Well... done so 6 month ago ;) This is the initial blog post with some
progress:
http://blog.gerhards.net/2013/05/moving-to-github.html
Was announced at several places. Overall feedback is "not bad, but no
real
difference".
Rainer
This will not only make code
patches easier, but I'm thinking at documentation, tests, issues, all
in
one place.
Not only contributions would be easier, but it would make things
would
be
more visible. Your github profile counts for many as some sort of CV.
The
more&better you contribute, the more awesome you are (think job
opportunities and such). For the project, it would make it easier to
see
how it evolves: contributions, issues, wiki - again, all in one
place.
That
is familiar to many.
Apache takes this idea to a higher level, as far as I understand, so
crazy
could be crazy-good. *Could be* - I don't know, really, I'm lacking
knowledge about how Adiscon and Apache works, although I have some
idea
about both. Otis, maybe you can say some more about the advantages
(and
disadvantages)?
And I'm obviously curious about what the Adiscon guys have to say
about
this.
Best regards,
Radu
2013/12/11 Boylan, James <[email protected]>
I agree with David. As a business who developsand supports a
product,
I
can't see any reason for Adiscon to do so unless they decide to no
longer
support and develop the software.
-- James
-- Sent from my mobile --
----- Reply message -----
From: "David Lang" <[email protected]>
To: "rsyslog-users" <[email protected]>
Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache?
Date: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 3:09 PM
not being an adiscon person, my first question is why they would
want
to do
that?
David Lang
On Wed, 11 Dec 2013, Otis Gospodnetic wrote:
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2013 16:05:11 -0500
From: Otis Gospodnetic <[email protected]>
Reply-To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
To: rsyslog-users <[email protected]>
Subject: [rsyslog] Rsyslog => Apache?
Hi,
Maybe this is a completely crazy question, but has Adiscon ever
considered
moving Rsyslog to Apache?
Thanks,
Otis
--
Performance Monitoring * Log Analytics * Search Analytics
Solr & Elasticsearch Support * http://sematext.com/
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