Re: [Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[songbird]

DdB wrote:
...
> But i cannot endorse on bookworm without finding alternatives viable to
> my handicap. Does that mean, i am back to square one?
> Currently, i am 6 years behind (still on debian 10), because i was not
> willing to lose functionality i am used to. BTW: the GNOME team did that
> to me repeatedly, which makes me quite unhappy. But i am not familiar
> with the other desktops, cannot estimate the difficulties associated
> with their usage.

  many years ago running Debian testing i was happy with a
Gnome setup, menus and taskbars.  then they changed it too
much and it made too many assumptions about how i liked to
do things and i went through the effort of getting KDE 
setup how i liked it and then they too changed it too much
so i found MATE and have stuck with that since then.

  i've not had to try Cinnamon or other desktops, but i
also have not been needing more extreme things for a handicap
other than having fonts pretty large (which is a problem in
some websites or programs as some don't make it easy to
scroll a whole dialog until you find the key combination to
grab it and move it up or down).


  songbird

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[songbird]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:
...
> Thanks for this description of a real world procedure.
> Now i know at least that i am not the only one who cares about the
> post-upgrade steps in the manual. I already began to think that everybody
> lets the surplus packages rot in the dark.

  i have been running the same general routine for
years.  every morning i boot up, run the updates
for apt (but i use apt-get out of habit) and then
do the updates that make sense.  since i am running
testing i may delay some updates for a period of
time until issues look to be resolved.

  if there are packages that are no longer needed
i will usually leave them in place until after i've
made sure i don't need them any more (here or there
i have had to downgrade to fix an issue so i don't
want to have to recreate a configuration file) before
i purge them from my system, but it may only be a
few days where i don't have the purged.  i also used
to run orphaner, but i've not used that in quite a
long time and it doesn't even appear in the archive
any more.

  after upgrading i reboot.  i want to know something
is broken when i have time to fix it instead of 
finding out when i don't have time.  i do keep a 
bootable stable partition though for emergencies and
comparison.

  once in a while i remove any unneeded downloaded
packages from my apt cache so i'm not wasting too
much space on my system, but that's once a month or
so when things seem to be quiet enough that i'm not
at risk of removing a package i might need to
downgrade.


> Have a nice day :)

  :)


> Thomas


  songbird

Re: [Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[Dan Ritter]

DdB wrote: 
> Am 01.06.2024 um 11:02 schrieb Andrew M.A. Cater:
> > You would need to go from buster - bullseye to bookworm anyway.
> > 
> > Read the Release Notes for Bullseye to pick up on any changes.
> > 
> > Do note also that Bookworm is currently supported: Bullseye security
> > support ends round July 31st this year as Bullseye will move to LTS.
> > 
> > You might want to repeat the upgrade process in a couple of months
> 
> Yes, Andy, you are correct. See:
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Production_Releases
> 
> But i cannot endorse on bookworm without finding alternatives viable to
> my handicap. Does that mean, i am back to square one?
> Currently, i am 6 years behind (still on debian 10), because i was not
> willing to lose functionality i am used to. BTW: the GNOME team did that
> to me repeatedly, which makes me quite unhappy. But i am not familiar
> with the other desktops, cannot estimate the difficulties associated
> with their usage.

You've mentioned that you want programmable hot corners and a
pop-up menu, and in another thread, that you like to write your
own scripts.

Here is an X11-specific but not DE-specific tool to run hot
corners; it is written in bash and is eminently hackable:

https://github.com/okitavera/cornora/

The dependencies are packaged in Debian, so it's just one
script.

And here is an X11-specific but not DE-specific tool to run
menus (and several other similar things), which is easily
customizable through a config file:

apt install rofi

Finally, here is an X11-specific but not DE-specific tool to
grab a keyboard button or combination and do something else with
it, including running an application:

apt install xbindkeys

All of these work in Debian 10, 11 and 12, and I see no reason
that they should stop working in 13. If you accustom yourself to
using them now, you can change desktop environments and upgrade
to current stable without fear of losing your desired workflow.

Hope that helps.

-dsr-

Re: [Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[Brad Rogers]

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 11:47:59 +0200
DdB  wrote:

Hello DdB,

>BTW: the GNOME team did that to me repeatedly

In fairness, it's not just Gnome that erodes features.  TBH, they *all*
do it.  I've seen features removed from Plasma, Claws Mail, Tellico,
loads of stuff.  Worst of all is when the removal goes without comment.
From anyone.

Often the reason given boils down to "too difficult to maintain".  Well
okay, but it's still difficult to stomach when you're reliant on said
feature.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
If we're working class, why ain't we got jobs?
Insane Society - Menace


pgpuuK72Cr_yx.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[DdB]

Am 01.06.2024 um 11:02 schrieb Andrew M.A. Cater:
> You would need to go from buster - bullseye to bookworm anyway.
> 
> Read the Release Notes for Bullseye to pick up on any changes.
> 
> Do note also that Bookworm is currently supported: Bullseye security
> support ends round July 31st this year as Bullseye will move to LTS.
> 
> You might want to repeat the upgrade process in a couple of months

Yes, Andy, you are correct. See:
https://wiki.debian.org/DebianReleases#Production_Releases

But i cannot endorse on bookworm without finding alternatives viable to
my handicap. Does that mean, i am back to square one?
Currently, i am 6 years behind (still on debian 10), because i was not
willing to lose functionality i am used to. BTW: the GNOME team did that
to me repeatedly, which makes me quite unhappy. But i am not familiar
with the other desktops, cannot estimate the difficulties associated
with their usage.

DdB

Re: [Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Jun 01, 2024 at 08:52:14AM +0200, DdB wrote:
> Am 31.05.2024 um 12:57 schrieb DdB:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > 
> > Now is the time to plan ahead for years to come and i don't know, what i
> > should do.
> > 
> > DdB
> 
> Thanks for all your input.
> In the meantime, i did check for the specific gnome-extensions and
> found, that both ere still working fine on bullseye. Thus i decided to
> just go the "little step" of moving from debian 10 to 11 for the time
> being. No need to mess with my habits in that case. :-)
> DdB
>

Hi DdB,

You would need to go from buster - bullseye to bookworm anyway.

Read the Release Notes for Bullseye to pick up on any changes.

Do note also that Bookworm is currently supported: Bullseye security
support ends round July 31st this year as Bullseye will move to LTS.

You might want to repeat the upgrade process in a couple of months :)

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater

(amaca...@debian.org)

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Florent Rougon wrote:
> AFAIK, these are not wildcards; each star appended to a package name
> indicates that the package is going to be purged

At least it is a good way to catch the attention of the apt operator. :))


> tl;dr: aptitude praise

Thanks for this description of a real world procedure.
Now i know at least that i am not the only one who cares about the
post-upgrade steps in the manual. I already began to think that everybody
lets the surplus packages rot in the dark.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

[Solved]: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[DdB]

Am 31.05.2024 um 12:57 schrieb DdB:
> Hello,
> 
> while being on old-old-stable still (buster) and preparing for an
> upgrade to bookworm, i noticed, that GNOME once again lost compatibility
> to my preferred extensions, giving me a hard choice to either go on with
> my outdated system as long as possible, or find a replacement and change
> my ways of working.
> 
> What i did like with GNOME was the ease of use for a handicapped person
> (like me). But i disliked the overwhelming intrusion into the os, that
> suppresses many choices and freedom.
> 
> But as i am still feeling like a noob, i would like to collect some
> suggestions and comments from you guys:
> Eventually there is an alternative to the so called
> "quick-toggler-extension", that i used/exploited to generate a kind of
> personal menu, easily configured in one go with a json config file, an
> alternative on another desktop?
> 
> And the other miss is the "Windows-corner-preview-extension", that is no
> longer maintained or functional, that i was using all over the place for
> many different use cases and purposes. That one also suffers from
> changes inside GNOME, that basically kill volunteers work (repeatedly!)
> 
> Now is the time to plan ahead for years to come and i don't know, what i
> should do.
> 
> DdB

Thanks for all your input.
In the meantime, i did check for the specific gnome-extensions and
found, that both ere still working fine on bullseye. Thus i decided to
just go the "little step" of moving from debian 10 to 11 for the time
being. No need to mess with my habits in that case. :-)
DdB

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Florent Rougon]

Le 01/06/2024, Florent Rougon  a écrit:

> FWIW, removal of “obsolete or local” packages is easily done
> interactively in aptitude: you go the the corresponding section of the
> main screen, hit Enter, etc. The [ key recursively unfolds a section
> (use ] to fold it back). You ask to purge a package by typing _
> (removing with -, as in the venerable dselect).

Forgot to say: one can perform the operation (remove with -, purge with
_) on a whole section at once by pressing the key on the section title,
where by “section” I mean: a foldable group of packages (e.g.: admin,
kernel, libsdevel, libs, etc., plus actual Debian sections: main,
contrib, nonfree, and presumably also the new non-free-firmware).

So, for instance, a whole bunch of obsolete library pakages can be
marked all at once for purge with a single _ keypress (this doesn't
exempt one from _reading_ the list of packages marked with this
keypress—make sure you didn't overlook something!).

Regards

-- 
Florent

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Florent Rougon]

Le 31/05/2024, "Thomas Schmitt"  a écrit:

> Then it offered me a list with slightly frightening wildcards:
>
>   The following packages will be REMOVED:
> fuse* libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer* linux-image-4.19.0-17-amd64*
> linux-image-4.19.0-20-amd64* linux-image-4.19.0-9-amd64* python*
> python-twisted-core* wicd-daemon* wicd-gtk*

AFAIK, these are not wildcards; each star appended to a package name
indicates that the package is going to be purged (no config files left
afterwards), as opposed to simply removed (leaving configuration files
in place).

> I will probably run "apt autoremove" after verifying that the few
> worthy local packages are not in the list proposed for autoremoval.

tl;dr: aptitude praise
~~

FWIW, removal of “obsolete or local” packages is easily done
interactively in aptitude: you go the the corresponding section of the
main screen, hit Enter, etc. The [ key recursively unfolds a section
(use ] to fold it back). You ask to purge a package by typing _
(removing with -, as in the venerable dselect).

For actually obsolete packages, doing so will occasionally trigger a
“dependency problem” because another package that depends on it hasn't
been marked as “to be removed or purged” yet. But normally, that other
package is also obsolete, so it *will* be marked shortly after when you
get to it. So basically, once you've gone through all the obsolete
packages marking each one as “to be purged”, having only left intact the
local ones you do want to keep, there should be no dependency problem to
resolve. ⇒ Hit g (for “go”), check the preview, hit g again if it looks
fine, otherwise q.

Note that the preview (of what is going to be done) is shown in a new
tab (yes, these are tabs, you can switch between them with F6), and that
tab gets closed if you cancel the operation with q. Also, you can act
directly in the Preview tab to unmark an operation, etc. And you can
undo with Ctrl-u, including outside the Preview tab.

Generally and especially for this kind of use (removing obsolete
packages that are still installed), I find that the following lines are
a must-have in /etc/apt/apt.conf:

  // Similar to dselect
  Aptitude::UI::Advance-On-Action "true";

(I also like “Aptitude::Auto-Upgrade "true";” but it is irrelevant
here.)

apt and aptitude have different algorithms for handling upgrades, so:
for stable-to-next-stable upgrades, I do stick to what the Release Notes
recommend. In most other situations where there isn't a huge number of
packages to upgrade, I find that aptitude does a great job:
  - interactive control over what is going to be done;
  - visualization of packages marked as auto-installed vs. those not
marked as such (and you can flip this bit using m or M);
  - interactive, regexp-based search (with powerful features if you look
up the syntax in the manual);
  - interactive package list limited by a user-defined filter (this is
Limit Display in the Search menu);
  - interactive inspection of the (deps a package + other control
fields) with Enter; of its reverse deps with the r key (and you can
quicky recurse in order to find why you need to have this pkg
installed);
  - works in a terminal;
  - etc.

There is the occasional crash, fortunately I've never seen one happen
while dpkg was installing, removing, etc., so the crashes I've seen were
all rather harmless (restart aptitude and proceed again). The worst I
had was on sid during the time_t transition: at some point, aptitude
couldn't start without crashing; however, after upgrading a few packages
with 'apt', it all went back into order. :-)

Regards

-- 
Florent

Re: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[Stefan Monnier]

> while being on old-old-stable still (buster) and preparing for an
> upgrade to bookworm, i noticed, that GNOME once again lost compatibility
> to my preferred extensions, giving me a hard choice to either go on with
> my outdated system as long as possible, or find a replacement and change
> my ways of working.

Not really an answer, just a side note: AFAIK, the concept of "DE"
doesn't exist at a technical level.  You *can* mix and match things from
various "DE"s.  There are occasional dependencies between components of
"DE"s, but each one of them is a PITA which I think should be treated as
a bug.


Stefan

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

just for the archive:

I think i found the source code which emits the "[...]" strings of
apt-list:

  https://sources.debian.org/src/apt/2.9.4/apt-private/private-output.cc/#L292

The possible status strings are:

  [installed,upgradable to: ...]
  [installed,local]
  [installed,auto-removable]
  [installed,automatic]
  [installed]
  [upgradable from: ...]"
  [residual-config]

More seem not to exist.

Their meaning has to be guessed from the names of methods, variables, and
constants in the code. (I believe "pkgCache::Flag::Auto" is a constant and
not an overloaded monster car. With C++ one never knows what's behind a
name.)

   if (P->CurrentVer != 0)
   {
  if (P.CurrentVer() == V)
  {
 if (state.Upgradable() && state.CandidateVer != NULL)
strprintf(StatusStr, _("[installed,upgradable to: %s]"),
 else if (V.Downloadable() == false)
StatusStr = _("[installed,local]");
 else if(V.Automatic() == true && state.Garbage == true)
StatusStr = _("[installed,auto-removable]");
 else if ((state.Flags & pkgCache::Flag::Auto) == pkgCache::Flag::Auto)
StatusStr = _("[installed,automatic]");
 else
StatusStr = _("[installed]");
  }
  else if (state.CandidateVer == V && state.Upgradable())
 strprintf(StatusStr, _("[upgradable from: %s]"),
   InstalledVerStr.c_str());
   }
   else if (V.ParentPkg()->CurrentState == pkgCache::State::ConfigFiles)
  StatusStr = _("[residual-config]");

-
About my post-upgrade activities:

I ran the command that is proposed in
  
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#purge-removed-packages
  apt purge '~c'

It flooded me with package names under the headline

  The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
required:
  ...
  Use 'apt autoremove' to remove them.

Then it offered me a list with slightly frightening wildcards:

  The following packages will be REMOVED:
fuse* libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer* linux-image-4.19.0-17-amd64*
linux-image-4.19.0-20-amd64* linux-image-4.19.0-9-amd64* python*
python-twisted-core* wicd-daemon* wicd-gtk*

After my confirmation it purged the 9 configurations which were reported
by "apt list '~c'"
  Purging configuration files for fuse (2.9.9-5) ...
  ...
  Purging configuration files for python (2.7.16-1) ...
and as last line said
  Processing triggers for dbus (1.14.10-1~deb12u1) ...

Somewhat mistrusting about the removal of "python" i asked apt-file from
where my current /usr/bin/python stems. Answer: python-is-python3 .
(As side result i now wonder how the result of /usr/bin/python3-pasteurize
might taste and how long it stays fresh.)


I will probably run "apt autoremove" after verifying that the few
worthy local packages are not in the list proposed for autoremoval.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Curt]

On 2024-05-30, Thomas Schmitt  wrote:
>
> Nevertheless it would be nice to find documentation about this kind of
> info in the output of "apt list".

I found this from an old post about Synaptic (the apt front-end), in the 
latter's
"help page":

 Obsolete or locally installed - Display only packages that are not (for longer)
 (sic) included in one of the specified repositories.

I guess the terminology is intended to cover all conceivable cases of why a
package isn't found in the repositories, in the event the user grew confused by
one or the other term that wasn't relevant to her situation, although for APT
the two cases are indistinguishable.


>
> Have a nice day :)
>
> Thomas
>
>


-- 

Re: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 10:03 AM DdB
 wrote:
>
> while being on old-old-stable still (buster) and preparing for an
> upgrade to bookworm, i noticed, that GNOME once again lost compatibility
> to my preferred extensions, giving me a hard choice to either go on with
> my outdated system as long as possible, or find a replacement and change
> my ways of working.
>
> What i did like with GNOME was the ease of use for a handicapped person
> (like me). But i disliked the overwhelming intrusion into the os, that
> suppresses many choices and freedom.
>
> But as i am still feeling like a noob, i would like to collect some
> suggestions and comments from you guys:
> Eventually there is an alternative to the so called
> "quick-toggler-extension", that i used/exploited to generate a kind of
> personal menu, easily configured in one go with a json config file, an
> alternative on another desktop?
>
> And the other miss is the "Windows-corner-preview-extension", that is no
> longer maintained or functional, that i was using all over the place for
> many different use cases and purposes. That one also suffers from
> changes inside GNOME, that basically kill volunteers work (repeatedly!)
>
> Now is the time to plan ahead for years to come and i don't know, what i
> should do.

It looks like you have at least ten choices of desktop environments:
<https://wiki.debian.org/DesktopEnvironment>. I don't know if your
extensions are compatible with any of them.

MATE provides an experience similar to GNOME 2.

Jeff

Re: What DE to replace GNOME with?

[George at Clug]

DdB,


"What DE to replace GNOME with?" - 'which GUI is your personal
preference' is my favourite topic. 


Back in the 'old days, I used to study GUIs and write GUI applications
to help simplify user experiences.



If you like Gnome, would Cinnamon be a good GUI for you?


I grew up with text based menus from the DOS era. Hence I disliked the
Windows 3.x, Windows 8, Windows 11, and Gnome icon based menus. On
mobile phones and tablets icons makes sense to me, but not on laptops
and desktops where I use a mouse.


Because I like to use text based menus, I very much like XFCE ! 


Mate is also nice. 


I use XFCE as I can easily modify the layout and themes to my choices.
Not something I could do in Gnome.



Recently I also started using KDE. It looks very nice and modern
looking. It also has lots of options or other ways to do things which
may make it overly complex?. I would recommend KDE to anyone moving
from Windows to Linux.


Cinnamon I mentioned, looks very attractive, at least it does to me.
Like Gnome, it hides complexity, providing a more simpler experience
for users. Some will like this others may not.


The great thing about Linux is we have choice. If you like Gnome, you
use Gnome, if you don't like Gnome, you can use XFCE, if you do not
like XFCE, you could choose KDE or one of the other GUIs. I am very
thankful to all the people who work on Linux and provide us with
choices.



One suggestion, install Cinnamon, Mate, and XFCE (as they all use the
light display manager), then create three accounts, c_user, m_user,
and x_user, then at different times, log into an account after
selecting the GUI and try using each of these GUIs, see what you like
and what you do not like about each of these. I use different the
accounts so any settings I make do not affect the other GUIs, this may
not be necessary, but I liked the idea, particularly if you have a
file server of any kind (like a NAS) on which you can  store any
files you want to access from all three accounts. This is not for your
primary, long term computer, but just as a trial for two to several
months. Worked well for me.



I hope my review helps you, but ultimately the decision is yours and
what you like, do not be swayed by other people's opinions unless
their opinions turn out to be yours too. 


Most of my friends use Gnome or KDE and are happy with their choice,
but I like XFCE and will stay with it for now. XFCE is simple, fast,
effective, not resource hungry, and easy to change themes and layout.
I use MenuLibre to add or change menu items, though there may be a
better program to do this with?


When I install XFCE, I also like installing Cinnamon, so I don't have
to individually install other programs that I like to use which come
with Mate, Cinnamon and Gnome.


There is also the whole Xorg (X11), and Wayland thing to think
about. 


Wayland may be the future, but right now, I believe Xorg is the
present. The programs I use and like work well as X11 programs. While
others will disagree but my experience has been X11 programs (e.g.
Chromium screen sharing, and OBS studio) work better than Wayland
versions. Wayland has to sort out several shortcomings before I will
be happy to use it. Sadly I think all this gets a bit messy and
complex, and will turn off new Linux users.


George.









On Friday, 31-05-2024 at 20:57 DdB wrote:


Hello,

while being on old-old-stable still (buster) and preparing for an
upgrade to bookworm, i noticed, that GNOME once again lost
compatibility
to my preferred extensions, giving me a hard choice to either go on
with
my outdated system as long as possible, or find a replacement and
change
my ways of working.

What i did like with GNOME was the ease of use for a handicapped
person
(like me). But i disliked the overwhelming intrusion into the os, that
suppresses many choices and freedom.

But as i am still feeling like a noob, i would like to collect some
suggestions and comments from you guys:
Eventually there is an alternative to the so called
"quick-toggler-extension", that i used/exploited to generate a kind of
personal menu, easily configured in one go with a json config file, an
alternative on another desktop?

And the other miss is the "Windows-corner-preview-extension", that is
no
longer maintained or functional, that i was using all over the place
for
many different use cases and purposes. That one also suffers from
changes inside GNOME, that basically kill volunteers work
(repeatedly!)

Now is the time to plan ahead for years to come and i don't know, what
i
should do.

DdB

What DE to replace GNOME with?

[DdB]

Hello,

while being on old-old-stable still (buster) and preparing for an
upgrade to bookworm, i noticed, that GNOME once again lost compatibility
to my preferred extensions, giving me a hard choice to either go on with
my outdated system as long as possible, or find a replacement and change
my ways of working.

What i did like with GNOME was the ease of use for a handicapped person
(like me). But i disliked the overwhelming intrusion into the os, that
suppresses many choices and freedom.

But as i am still feeling like a noob, i would like to collect some
suggestions and comments from you guys:
Eventually there is an alternative to the so called
"quick-toggler-extension", that i used/exploited to generate a kind of
personal menu, easily configured in one go with a json config file, an
alternative on another desktop?

And the other miss is the "Windows-corner-preview-extension", that is no
longer maintained or functional, that i was using all over the place for
many different use cases and purposes. That one also suffers from
changes inside GNOME, that basically kill volunteers work (repeatedly!)

Now is the time to plan ahead for years to come and i don't know, what i
should do.

DdB

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > What kind of programming language can have inspired the developers
> > to define such a syntax ?

Max Nikulin:
> https://blog.jak-linux.org/2019/08/15/apt-patterns/

This points to aptitude. The package description of aptitude says
"mutt-like syntax for matching packages". Indeed
  https://www.sendmail.org/~ca/email/mutt/manual-4.html
has in its second half some lines which resemble apt-patterns.


> As to obsolete vs. local packages, my guess is that apt may label some
> version as obsolete if another version of the same package is still
> available from some repository. Otherwise it is local.

To me it seems that apt-patterns simply calls "obsolete" what apt-list
then marks in its output as "[... local]".
Obviously these terms refer to different reasons why a package is not
found in the official repos. But these reasons seem to be
indistinguishable. So in the end both terms depict the same status.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[David Wright]

On Wed 29 May 2024 at 18:20:25 (+0200), Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> i wonder why none of the electricians on this list has an anecdote to
> share about dealing with "obsolete" packages after upgrade.
> No triumphs, defeats, or global catastrophes ?

Nowadays I install new releases from scratch, helped by the fact that
for years I've always had two systems on each machine, the current and
the previous. (/home is shared.) That tends to limit cruft as well.

> I wrote:
> > > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.h
> tml#purge-removed-packages
> > > What does "[residual-config]" mean ?

It is odd that the terminology used in the output differs from that
used to provoke it, as in:

  $ apt list '?config-files'
  Listing... Done
  mlocate/oldstable,now 0.26-5 amd64 [residual-config]
  $ 

Both man apt-patterns and aptitude's Search Term Reference ought to
include the bracketed items if there's no intention to unify terms.
Perhaps it's related to the tendency to underdocument the output from
programs.

> The predicate "obsolete" is not the same as "automatically installed".
> I understand that obsolete means having no successor package in the
> upgraded Debian release.

"Obsolete" is an unfortunately loaded word. I think aptitude expresses
it a bit more clearly: "This term matches any installed package which
is not available in any version from any archive. These packages
appear as “Obsolete or Locally Installed” in the visual interface."

  $ apt list '?installed ?obsolete'
  Listing... Done
  xtoolwait/now 1.3-6.2 amd64 [installed,local]
  yt-dlp/now 2024.05.26-1 all [installed,local]
  $ 

The first is from squeeze, the second from trixie (hardly "obsolete"),
both installed with apt-get fullpath (previously I'd have used dpkg -i).

> Is there a way to do a dry run which only tells what would happen if i
> were more courageous ?

Both apt* and dpkg have --no-act --dry-run --simulate to prevent
acting. (apt* has additional synonyms -s --just-print --recon.)
With dpkg, it's safest to place the option first, as it only
protects what follows it in the command line.

Typically you can also not be root to help protect yourself,
as in:

  $ apt-get -s remove libc6 
  NOTE: This is only a simulation!
apt-get needs root privileges for real execution.
Keep also in mind that locking is deactivated,
so don't depend on the relevance to the real current situation!
  Reading package lists...
  Building dependency tree...
  Reading state information...
  The following packages were automatically installed and are no longer 
required:
  [ … ]
  Use 'apt autoremove' to remove them.
  The following packages will be REMOVED:
  [ … ]
  WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
  This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
  [ … ]
  0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 1702 to remove and 0 not upgraded.
  [ … ]

Cheers,
David.

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Max Nikulin]

On 30/05/2024 16:22, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Max Nikulin wrote:

apt-patterns(7)


Wow. What kind of programming language can have inspired the developers
to define such a syntax ?


https://blog.jak-linux.org/2019/08/15/apt-patterns/

"apt list" has some limitations in comparison to "aptitude search". I 
have no idea what was the source of inspiration for aptitude, but this 
query language appeared perhaps a quarter of century ago.


https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/aptitude/ch02s04s05.en.html

For me it is hard to compose a query beyond trivial ones. My adventures 
with "apt list":
Re: List packages from non-default repositories. Wed, 4 Oct 2023 
17:26:47 +0700

https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/ufjel7$l9m$1...@ciao.gmane.io

However I did not post last variant of the query. It is for aptitude.

As to obsolete vs. local packages, my guess is that apt may label some 
version as obsolete if another version of the same package is still 
available from some repository. Otherwise it is local.

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Florent Rougon]

Le 30/05/2024, "Thomas Schmitt"  a écrit:

> So "local" would be just another word for "obsolete" ?

My understanding is that “obsolete” and “local” may mean different
things to the person who installed the packages (“obsolete” would
correspond to the first item of the list at the end of my previous post,
“local” to the second one); however, apt and aptitude can't distinguish
between them: both categories are comprised of “packages that are
installed but not available from the sources scanned during the last
'apt update' run (or 'aptitude update').

I believe someone already wrote something along these lines in this
thread (maybe Max). In aptitude, the packages in question are all
grouped in the category named “Obsolete and Locally Created Packages”,
IMHO because there is no good way to programmatically distinguish
between them.

(A private package could very well be made available and installed from
a private repository; or alternatively, installed with 'dpkg -i' without
ever being put in an apt repository; therefore “has been installed in
the past from an apt repository” is not a good criterion to distinguish
between “obsolete packages” and “local” ones.)

Note: I mentioned private packages to simplify wording, but the
  “Obsolete and Locally Created Packages” category would also
  contain packages that users sometimes download from third-party
  websites[1], installing them with 'dpkg -i' or the 'apt' command
  line tool, without adding any repository to their
  sources.list(.d). All these are “local packages” from my POV.

Regards

[1] Printer drivers in .deb form, libdvdcss stuff, etc. (make sure the
source is trustworthy!)

-- 
Florent

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > Next documenation riddle is what the word "local" means in output lines
> > like
> >   linux-image-5.10.0-rc2-ts/now 5.10.0-rc2-ts-37 amd64 [installed,local]

Florent Rougon wrote:
> I don't use this but guess it is as in aptitude, where “obsolete/local
> packages” are packages that are installed (from dpkg's POV) but not
> available from any of the repositories scanned in the last 'apt update'
> run.

So "local" would be just another word for "obsolete" ?

Indeed, the output of

  apt list '?installed !?obsolete' | grep local

shows only some packages with "locale" in their name, but none with
"local" in the []-brackets. On the other hand

  apt list '?installed ?obsolete' | grep -v 'local]$'

shows no packages, i.e. all lines of obsolete packages end by "local]".


Nevertheless it would be nice to find documentation about this kind of
info in the output of "apt list".


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Florent Rougon]

Hi Thomas,

Le 30/05/2024, "Thomas Schmitt"  a écrit:

> Next documenation riddle is what the word "local" means in output lines
> like
>
>   linux-image-5.10.0-rc2-ts/now 5.10.0-rc2-ts-37 amd64 [installed,local]

I don't use this but guess it is as in aptitude, where “obsolete/local
packages” are packages that are installed (from dpkg's POV) but not
available from any of the repositories scanned in the last 'apt update'
run.

This happens in particular with:

  - packages that used to be in a repo seen by 'apt update' (often, you
installed said packages at that time), but are not included in your
current apt sources (/etc/apt/sources.list,
/etc/apt/sources.list.d/); this usually happens between Debian
releases for some packages shipped by Debian;

  - packages that are not in any of the repos seen by 'apt update' and
that you installed from .deb with 'dpkg -i' (I believe the apt
command line tool can also do this); for instance, local packages
you prepared yourself but didn't bother to put in an apt repository.

Regards

-- 
Florent

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wrote:
> > But i am not sure whether the commercial package which i have to keep
> > will be preserved with "apt autoremove".
> > Is there a way to do a dry run which only tells what would happen if i
> > were more courageous ?

Mike Kupfer wrote:
> When I use "apt autoremove", I am given a list of proposed removals and
> a prompt about whether I want to proceed.

Good to know that there are safeguards when i finally remove some of the
"obsolete" packages.


I wrote:
> > How could i get a list of only the automatically installed obsolete
> > packages ?
> > (I still did not find any documentation about the '~c' or '~o' with
> > "apt list".)

Max Nikulin wrote:
> apt-patterns(7)

Wow. What kind of programming language can have inspired the developers
to define such a syntax ?
But hey, at least there is logic provided. \o/

So i try

  apt list '?installed ?obsolete ?automatic'

This narrows the list from 220 to 192 packages.
Even better, i don't have to diff the lists but can see the 28 other
obsolete packages by

  apt list '?installed ?obsolete !?automatic'

Among them are "hfsprogs", the self-made kernels, and the commercial
package which i need to keep.


Next documenation riddle is what the word "local" means in output lines
like

  linux-image-5.10.0-rc2-ts/now 5.10.0-rc2-ts-37 amd64 [installed,local]

(I may have missed something in the man pages of dpkg and dpkg-query, but
their occurences of the word "local" do not look like related to the info
from "apt list".)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Max Nikulin]

On 29/05/2024 23:20, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

How could i get a list of only the automatically installed obsolete
packages ?
(I still did not find any documentation about the '~c' or '~o' with
"apt list".)


apt-patterns(7) and dpkg(1). Apt can not distinguish packages installed 
by dpkg directly and by apt but not present in any configured repository 
any more. Both are "obsolete".

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Mike Kupfer]

Thomas Schmitt wrote:

> But i am not sure whether the commercial package which i have to keep
> will be preserved with "apt autoremove".
> Is there a way to do a dry run which only tells what would happen if i
> were more courageous ?

When I use "apt autoremove", I am given a list of proposed removals and
a prompt about whether I want to proceed.

cheers,
mike

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

i wonder why none of the electricians on this list has an anecdote to
share about dealing with "obsolete" packages after upgrade.
No triumphs, defeats, or global catastrophes ?


I wrote:
> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.h
tml#purge-removed-packages
> > What does "[residual-config]" mean ?

Marco Moock wrote:
> Packages include system-wide configuration files. If packages are
> removed, this configuration will not be deleted. You need to purge such
> packages to remove it.

So the smaller list of packages can be dealt with what the upgrade
instructions propose:
  apt purge '~c'


There remains the list of 220 "obsolete" packages.

> > https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#obsolete

> Packages have dependencies. Those will be marked as automatically
> installed. They can be removed if no other package depends on them.

But several of those packages were surely installed manually by me via
dpkg -i after being made made as descibed in
  
https://kernel-team.pages.debian.net/kernel-handbook/ch-common-tasks.html#s-common-building
The predicate "obsolete" is not the same as "automatically installed".
I understand that obsolete means having no successor package in the
upgraded Debian release.

How could i get a list of only the automatically installed obsolete
packages ?
(I still did not find any documentation about the '~c' or '~o' with
"apt list".)


> Be aware: If you install software beyond apt/dpkg that depends on files
> in installed packages, you need to mark them as manually installed to
> avoid being removed by autoremove.

Google leads me to apt-mark for that purpose.
But i am not sure whether the commercial package which i have to keep
will be preserved with "apt autoremove".
Is there a way to do a dry run which only tells what would happen if i
were more courageous ?


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[The Wanderer]

On 2024-05-28 at 15:02, Marco Moock wrote:

> Am 28.05.2024 um 20:38:46 Uhr schrieb Thomas Schmitt:

>> What does "[residual-config]" mean ?
> 
> Packages include system-wide configuration files. If packages are 
> removed, this configuration will not be deleted. You need to purge
> such packages to remove it.

On brief analysis, it looks like this reflects the same status which is
reported in the Status line of the output of 'dpkg -s PACKAGENAME' with
the string "deinstall ok config-files". YMMV, but I find that intuitive
enough: the package used to be installed, and isn't anymore, but its
config files have been left behind.

(Note that if you have the package installed from multiple
architectures, you will apparently need to specify the arch qualifier
suffix to the package name in order for the command to not error out.)

I don't remember using that dpkg command very often, but I do remember
seeing that string often enough in the past, so there are probably other
commands which will also report it if applicable.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Marco Moock]

Am 28.05.2024 um 20:38:46 Uhr schrieb Thomas Schmitt:

> today i upgraded a Debian 11 system to 12 and am now scratching my
> head over the final steps as described in
>   
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#purge-removed-packages
>   
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#obsolete

Packages have dependencies. Those will be marked as automatically
installed. They can be removed if no other package depends on them.

You can do that with the autopurge/autoremove apt command.

Be aware: If you install software beyond apt/dpkg that depends on files
in installed packages, you need to mark them as manually installed to
avoid being removed by autoremove. dpkg doesn't care about stuff
manually installed.

> What does "[residual-config]" mean ?

Packages include system-wide configuration files. If packages are
removed, this configuration will not be deleted. You need to purge such
packages to remove it.


-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1716921526mu...@cartoonies.org

After upgrade, what do you do about "removed" and "obsolete" packages ?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

today i upgraded a Debian 11 system to 12 and am now scratching my head
over the final steps as described in
  
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#purge-removed-packages
  
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#obsolete

The command
  apt list '~c'
shows 9 "removed packages":
  fuse/stable 2.9.9-6+b1 amd64 [residual-config]
  libreoffice-avmedia-backend-gstreamer/now 1:7.0.4-4+deb11u9 amd64 
[residual-config]
  linux-image-4.19.0-17-amd64/now 4.19.194-3 amd64 [residual-config]
  linux-image-4.19.0-20-amd64/now 4.19.235-1 amd64 [residual-config]
  linux-image-4.19.0-9-amd64/now 4.19.118-2+deb10u1 amd64 [residual-config]
  python-twisted-core/now 18.9.0-3 all [residual-config]
  python/now 2.7.16-1 amd64 [residual-config]
  wicd-daemon/now 1.7.4+tb2-6 all [residual-config]
  wicd-gtk/now 1.7.4+tb2-6 all [residual-config]
What does "[residual-config]" mean ?
The man page of apt is quite sparse. Is there something more detailed
available online ?

  apt list '~o'
shows 220 "obsolete packages", of which at least one is a commercial
non-Debian package which is on the machine for commercial reasons.
Others are gcc-{8,9,10}, hfsprogs, linux-image-* from Debian 10 and from
my own kernel experiments, and lots of stuff of which i have no clue.

I wonder how others sift through such a list and decide what to do.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

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Re: live-build: what do live-task-* do?

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Hans wrote:
> I am playing around with live-build.

This package has its own specialized mailing list:
  debian-l...@lists.debian.org


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

live-build: what do live-task-* do?

[Hans]

Hello everyone,

I am playing around with live-build. So I see several packages 
called "live-task-*" (for example live-task-xfce), but I can not see any 
changes in the live-build tree, when I install them or not.

Checked through the manuals, but I found no information, what I have to do 
with it. Yes, live-task-xfce shall add XFCE to the live-build ISO, but I can 
not see any difference by adding just the entry "live-task-xfce" into the file 
"live.list.chroot" below ~/config/package.list and installing the package.

What did I miss? Yes, I see, these are metapackages and want to install more 
packages (what I really NOT want on my building computer).

The logic of this behaviour is not quite clear for me. I suppose, it shall 
show me and let me test, which packages are installed into the live-ISO. 

But if I do not want them on my building computer, I just need to add the 
entry into ~/config/package.list/live.list.chroot and it will work. 

Am I correct?

Personally I think this is not a good way, as installing a package 
like task-live-xfce will install all xfce-packages,too. No good idea for 
several reasons. But someone might have good reasons for this.

Whatever, the question is: What are these live-task-packages for and how shall 
they be handled correctly?

Thank you for enlightening me!

Best regards

Hans  

Re: SOLVED (was: Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?)

[Marc SCHAEFER]

On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 04:14:33PM +0200, DdB wrote:
> - the resulting transfer is way faster than say ... ssh.

AFAIK ssh is mono-threaded (like OpenVPN, unless you use the kernel
module).  wireguard is multi-threaded.

The symptom will be one CPU ("core") at 100% and the rest mostly
idle.

SOLVED (was: Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?)

[DdB]

Am 11.04.2024 um 15:49 schrieb Marc SCHAEFER:
> Hello,
> 
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 03:13:01PM +0200, DdB wrote:
>> from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:
> 
> I never used mbuffer, I use buffer combined with netcat-traditional:
> 
># receiver (TCP server on port 8000)
>nc -l -p 8000 | buffer -S 1048576 -s 32768 -o /dev/null
> 
># sender (TCP client on ephemeral port)
>nc localhost 8000 < /dev/zero
> 
> I just installed mbuffer:
> 
>mbuffer -I 8000 -o /dev/null
> 
>mbuffer -i /dev/zero -O 127.0.0.1:8000
> 
> and it also works.
> 
>>> sudo netstat | grep $port
>> to return nothing
> 
> yes, but those work:
> 
>netstat -a | grep :8000
> 
>netstat --listen | grep :8000
> 
> Maybe it's just that by default netstat only shows sockets in the
> ESTABLISHED state and not in the LISTEN state.
> 
>> What am i doing wrong?
> 
> If there is a timeout, I would suggest to investigate firewalls
> on the server side.
> 
> 

Thank you for your (and everyone else)'s hints.
It is working now. The lessons learned:
- in fact netstat is somewhat outdated, ss is the replacement (package
iproute2 instead of net-tools)
- yes, and my attempt at checking just failed, as you kindly pointed
out, due to missing out on listening ports. LOL
- when using mbuffer from a pipe, it is important to say "-i - " in the
arguments (missed that at first)
- the resulting transfer is way faster than say ... ssh.

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Marc SCHAEFER]

Hello,

On Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 03:13:01PM +0200, DdB wrote:
> from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:

I never used mbuffer, I use buffer combined with netcat-traditional:

   # receiver (TCP server on port 8000)
   nc -l -p 8000 | buffer -S 1048576 -s 32768 -o /dev/null

   # sender (TCP client on ephemeral port)
   nc localhost 8000 < /dev/zero

I just installed mbuffer:

   mbuffer -I 8000 -o /dev/null

   mbuffer -i /dev/zero -O 127.0.0.1:8000

and it also works.

> > sudo netstat | grep $port
> to return nothing

yes, but those work:

   netstat -a | grep :8000

   netstat --listen | grep :8000

Maybe it's just that by default netstat only shows sockets in the
ESTABLISHED state and not in the LISTEN state.

> What am i doing wrong?

If there is a timeout, I would suggest to investigate firewalls
on the server side.

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[DdB]

Am 09.04.2024 um 15:30 schrieb Arno Lehmann:

> I'd propose to use
> 
> ss -f inet -lpn
> 
> ss instead of netstat... I try to catch up with changing times :-)
(...)
> 
> Arno
> 
> 

Thank you so much! Your suggestion did help big time, and the transfer
is working now as desired.

Great relief and a good lesson: not to install net-tools, but iproute2
instead. :-)

Have a nice day!
DdB

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Michael Kjörling]

On 9 Apr 2024 15:13 +0200, from debianl...@potentially-spam.de-bruyn.de (DdB):
>> port=8000 # just an example
>> filename=test.bin # created before
>> 
>> # Start the receiver first, like:
>> mbuffer -I $port -o $filename
>> 
>> # Then start the sender like:
>> mbuffer -i $filename -O ${receiverIP}:$port
> 
> On my LAN (all virtual, at the moment), this fails, because the sender
> cannot connect to the receiver, so times out.

Looking at the mbuffer man page, it certainly looks like it should
work. Another tool that will let you do the same thing is nc (netcat);
nc -l on the listener side, plain nc on the connecting side.


> What left me puzzled is this:
> Just starting the receiver, and then checking, if it is listening at the
> $port, i found:
>> sudo netstat | grep $port
> to return nothing

netstat defaults to resolving IPs and ports to names. At a minimum,
add -n if you are grepping its output for a specific port number. (You
may also want to use grep -w.)

I also suggest to double-check to make sure that you don't have a
firewall blocking the traffic.

-- 
Michael Kjörling  https://michael.kjorling.se
“Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”

Re: using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[Arno Lehmann]

Hello,


I have not used mbuffer for a long time, so won't comment on that.

But your netstat call looks unsuitable to diagnose.

I'd propose to use

ss -f inet -lpn

ss instead of netstat... I try to catch up with changing times :-)

-f inet because in this case, you're (probably) just interested in IPv4 
network sockets. Could be IPv6, of course, then use inet6


-l list listening sockets, not active connections
-p show the process using the socket. Will usually require root
-n show numbers, not translated names

l and n are probably most important for you (and are also available for 
netstat) as you would otherwise first miss a listening socket, and then 
have grep miss the output if you use a port number that is assigned (see 
/etc/services)


Good luck!

Arno


--
Arno Lehmann

IT-Service Lehmann
Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück

using mbuffer: what am i doing wrong?

[DdB]

Hello list,

from my research, the abbreviated takeaway is:

> port=8000 # just an example
> filename=test.bin # created before
> 
> # Start the receiver first, like:
> mbuffer -I $port -o $filename
> 
> # Then start the sender like:
> mbuffer -i $filename -O ${receiverIP}:$port

On my LAN (all virtual, at the moment), this fails, because the sender
cannot connect to the receiver, so times out.

What left me puzzled is this:
Just starting the receiver, and then checking, if it is listening at the
$port, i found:
> sudo netstat | grep $port
to return nothing

At that point, i decided, i would appreciate some hint from people more
experienced than i am.

What am i doing wrong?
DdB

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[gene heskett]

On 4/6/24 16:30, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

On Saturday 06 April 2024 11:05:52 am Curt wrote:

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.


Don't believe the stereotypes...

My lady,  now 79,  was running XP until there was a hard drive crash some few years back. 
 After I dealt with that but before I did the re-install I stuck an Ubuntu CD in the 
machine and said "Try this" and it was apparently okay enough to go ahead and 
install it and run it for several years.  The only regret was one game that wouldn't 
load,  but we couldn't get a clean read off of that install medium anyhow.  Not all that 
long ago that machine got replaced by one running linux Mint,  which she's still happily 
running today.  I offered Debian,  by putting it on a second drive in that earlier 
machine and pointing out the boot options,  but she never did get that much of a handle 
on the idea of selecting different desktop environments.  Not a big deal,  at least the 
house is an M$-free zone still,  and I know that she's a damn smart lady.  :-)

We're way off topic Roy, but my now departed music teacher never "got 
the fever" was not a bit impressed by the district forcing her to use a 
dos box (2.1 I think), two floppy drives to make out grades and report 
cards the last 5 years of her 35 year teaching career.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Saturday 06 April 2024 11:05:52 am Curt wrote:
> On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
> > Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
> > Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
> > on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
> > servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
> > supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
> > automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
> 
> Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.

Don't believe the stereotypes...

My lady,  now 79,  was running XP until there was a hard drive crash some few 
years back.  After I dealt with that but before I did the re-install I stuck an 
Ubuntu CD in the machine and said "Try this" and it was apparently okay enough 
to go ahead and install it and run it for several years.  The only regret was 
one game that wouldn't load,  but we couldn't get a clean read off of that 
install medium anyhow.  Not all that long ago that machine got replaced by one 
running linux Mint,  which she's still happily running today.  I offered 
Debian,  by putting it on a second drive in that earlier machine and pointing 
out the boot options,  but she never did get that much of a handle on the idea 
of selecting different desktop environments.  Not a big deal,  at least the 
house is an M$-free zone still,  and I know that she's a damn smart lady.  :-)

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Curt]

On 2024-04-06, gene heskett  wrote:
> On 4/6/24 11:07, Curt wrote:
>> On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
>>> Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
>>> Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
>>> on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
>>> servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
>>> supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
>>> automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
>> 
>> Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP
> .
> And she will never experience its only major bug, the timer rollover at 
> 46.something days. She will never leave it running that long. That was 
> the most stable windows ever published.  That was the only reason we 
> ever rebooted the machine that literally ran the WDTV news dept back in 
> its day despite the reporters best efforts to crash it. I'd calculate 
> when it had to be rebooted & stick a postit note on it.  And kept a copy 
> in my office to remind me when it was time to go reboot it.

Well, you'll be reassured to note that she is now defunct. Where the
machine ended up, I am unaware. Her ashes are currently confined in some
buried urn.

Time heals all wounds, n'est-ce pas ?

> Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.


-- 

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[gene heskett]

On 4/6/24 11:07, Curt wrote:

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP

.
And she will never experience its only major bug, the timer rollover at 
46.something days. She will never leave it running that long. That was 
the most stable windows ever published.  That was the only reason we 
ever rebooted the machine that literally ran the WDTV news dept back in 
its day despite the reporters best efforts to crash it. I'd calculate 
when it had to be rebooted & stick a postit note on it.  And kept a copy 
in my office to remind me when it was time to go reboot it.



.


Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Curt]

On 2024-04-05, John Hasler  wrote:
> Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
> Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
> on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
> servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
> supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
> automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.

Yeah, but Grandma's still using Windows XP.

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Charles Curley]

On Fri, 5 Apr 2024 13:38:50 -0700
"James H. H. Lampert"  wrote:

> Which is why I still have DOS boxes  (running IBM PC-DOS 2000, 
> with DOSShell, and no WinDoze whatsoever….

You might look into freedos.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 4/5/24 12:12 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote:
. . .

Most of the time the platform is dictated by the application(s) a
user wants to run. . . .


Indeed. Which is why I still have DOS boxes  (running IBM PC-DOS 2000, 
with DOSShell, and no WinDoze whatsoever: Xerox Ventura Publisher 
(DOS/GEM Edition) is *still* my typesetting software of choice, and I 
still use WordPerfect 5.1+ and Quattro Pro SE.


And as to Ventura and WordPerfect, well, Corel can go to . . . (rhymes 
with Corel), for turning perfectly good DOS apps into bad, bloated, 
WinDoze apps.


--
JHHL

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Nate Bargmann]

* On 2024 05 Apr 12:37 -0500, William Torrez Corea wrote:
> My colleague uses Windows, another uses Mac OS while I use Debian Gnu/Linux
> 12.

Choice is good.

> The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use mac os
> but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the goal of
> having this distribution?.

https://www.debian.org/intro/why_debian

> I use in Debian Gnu/Linux the following tools:
> 
>1. gdb
>2. gcc
>3. valgrind
>4. git
>5. vim
>6. postgresql

You're using tools provided by Debian to get your work done or to do
things you want to do that work well for you.  Is that the case for your
colleagues?

Understand that some people will only use one computing platform no
matter the benefits of another.  Others will try everything and still
others will seek the absolute best platform to achieve their goals no
matter what it is.  You and your colleagues may well each be in one of
those categories.

Most of the time the platform is dictated by the application(s) a user
wants to run.  Sometimes the platform is dictated by ego.

- Nate

-- 
"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."
Web: https://www.n0nb.us
Projects: https://github.com/N0NB
GPG fingerprint: 82D6 4F6B 0E67 CD41 F689 BBA6 FB2C 5130 D55A 8819



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 4/5/24 11:35 AM, John Hasler wrote:

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.


Not to mention people like me, who refuse to use WinDoze, in order to 
avoid paying "The Bill" (hasn't Gates gotten rich enough already, 
selling ill-behaved bloatware and deliberately driving competitors out 
of business?), and who have become increasingly disgusted with Apple's 
"we know what you want better than you do" attitude, and with the fact 
that their upgrade treadmill is getting to be almost as bad as 
Microsloth's (I'd use a stronger dysphemism, involving a very rude 
Yiddish word, but this is presumably a family list-server).


And of course, every Chromebook in the world has a variant of Linux at 
its core (just as every Mac that runs a Mac OS later than 9 uses a 
variant of BSD), and a *good* Chromebook will run Linux apps.


--
JHHL

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[John Hasler]

Desktop Linux is widely used in physics and mathematics.  NASA uses
Linux extensively, including on Mars and on the ISS.  SpaceX uses Linux
on their rockets and spacecraft.  Over 90% of the top 1 million Web
servers run Linux, including Yahoo, X, and Ebay.  Almost all
supercomputers use Linux. Linux has a large and growing share of the
automotive market.  Your router almost certainly runs Linux.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: What use can i give to linux?

[Leandro Noferini]

William Torrez Corea  writes:

[...]

> The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use
> mac os but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the
> goal of having this distribution?.

Translating from a contemporary italian philosopher, the answer you are
looking for is inside you but it is wrong.

[...]

--
Ciao
Leandro


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

What use can i give to linux?

[William Torrez Corea]

My colleague uses Windows, another uses Mac OS while I use Debian Gnu/Linux
12.

The majority of users use Windows while developers and designers use mac os
but a little of people use Debian Gnu/Linux 12. So, what is the goal of
having this distribution?.

I use in Debian Gnu/Linux the following tools:

   1. gdb
   2. gcc
   3. valgrind
   4. git
   5. vim
   6. postgresql


-- 

With kindest regards, William.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Question about what package to report bug

[Erwan David]

Le 06/03/2024 à 18:19, ke6jti a écrit :

Hi,

I have a possible kernel regression for a usb-dvb tuner card.  I know 
the error in dmesg points to kernel : au0828 but I am not sure what 
package this belongs to.  I think it belongs to v4l(video for linux) 
but I am still not sure what specific v4l package.



Thanks for you help.


apt-file shows au0828.ko comes in the linux-image-* packages. So report 
the bug for the one you use.

Question about what package to report bug

[ke6jti]

Hi,

I have a possible kernel regression for a usb-dvb tuner card.  I know 
the error in dmesg points to kernel : au0828 but I am not sure what 
package this belongs to.  I think it belongs to v4l(video for linux) but 
I am still not sure what specific v4l package.



Thanks for you help.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 08:18:41PM +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> Greg Wooledge  wrote:
> 
> > That's all normal and expected.
> > 
> > What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> > its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> > correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP
> > was that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> > expected.
> 
> It's not weird at all. It's how many people set their machines, when
> they have logical minds and prefer -MM-DD date format rather than
> the illogical messes most countries have in their locales.

It's weird to set *every* LC_* variable when all you want to change is
LC_TIME.

I personally set LANG and LC_TIME.  But I don't set the others.  Why
would I?  That would be weird.

unicorn:~$ locale
LANG=en_US.utf8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
LC_TIME=C
LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
LC_ALL=

As you can see, the only variables with unquoted, non-empty values are
LANG and LC_TIME.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[debian-user]

Greg Wooledge  wrote:

> That's all normal and expected.
> 
> What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP
> was that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> expected.

It's not weird at all. It's how many people set their machines, when
they have logical minds and prefer -MM-DD date format rather than
the illogical messes most countries have in their locales.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

Greg Wooledge  writes:

> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
>> settings are as expected:
>> 
>> $ locale
>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>> LANGUAGE=en_US:en
>> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
>> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> [...]
>
> Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> which is still quite unusual.

Not at all, I know perfectly well where that comes from. I'd be upset if
I didn't. I set all that in my shell config. It's a kind of a legacy
contamination from remote shell machines. As I don't have root on all
the shell machines I use, I have traditionally configured locales in
shell init there. And at some point, I've copied those locale settings
to my home desktop, possibly other machines too.

I guess one of these days I'll run update-locale and clean up my shell
config.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[tomas]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 05:19:10PM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 16:25:05 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:

[...]

> > At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
> > system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.
> 
> More likely an æbleskiver pan?

But we know that all toasters run Unix, since a well-known company
got burnt by that recall they had to do.

On pans... I'm out of my depth, sorry.

;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[David Wright]

On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 16:25:05 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 11:11:09AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > > > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > > > settings are as expected:
> > > > 
> > > > $ locale
> > > > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > > > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > > > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > [...]
> > > 
> > > Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> > > system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> > > your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> > > which is still quite unusual.
> > 
> > Could something weird here do that?
> > 
> >   $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
> >   /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
> >   /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
> >   $ 
> 
> That's all normal and expected.

Yes, they're off my system :) though I should have added -r to
catch any ssh_config.d/* files, as in the illustration below.

> What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
> its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
> correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP was
> that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
> expected.

That's why I posted the last line about SetEnv, illustrated by:

  $ cat /etc/ssh/ssh_config.d/test.conf 
  Host ahost
SetEnv LC_PAPER=en_GB.utf8
  #
  $ ssh ahost
  Linux ahost 5.10.0-27-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 5.10.205-2 (2023-12-31) x86_64

  The programs included with the Debian GNU/Linux system are free software;
  [ … ]
  You have new mail.
  Last login: Fri Feb 16 22:41:18 2024 from 192.168.1.14
  $ locale
  LANG=C.UTF-8
  LANGUAGE=
  LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8
  LC_NUMERIC="C.UTF-8"
  LC_TIME="C.UTF-8"
  LC_COLLATE="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MONETARY="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MESSAGES="C.UTF-8"
  LC_PAPER=en_GB.utf8←
  LC_NAME="C.UTF-8"
  LC_ADDRESS="C.UTF-8"
  LC_TELEPHONE="C.UTF-8"
  LC_MEASUREMENT="C.UTF-8"
  LC_IDENTIFICATION="C.UTF-8"
  LC_ALL=
  $ 

It's not a place I'd have immediately thought of looking.

> At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
> system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.

More likely an æbleskiver pan?

Cheers,
David.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 11:11:09AM -0600, David Wright wrote:
> On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > > settings are as expected:
> > > 
> > > $ locale
> > > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> > [...]
> > 
> > Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> > system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> > your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> > which is still quite unusual.
> 
> Could something weird here do that?
> 
>   $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
>   /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
>   /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
>   $ 

That's all normal and expected.

What's odd is that client *actually has* LC_NUMERIC and so on set in
its environment.  Which... is not a problem if they're all set to the
correct values.  It's weird, but not wrong.  The problem for the OP was
that one of the values was not set correctly, or at least not as
expected.

At this point we have no idea whether the ssh client is even a Unix/Linux
system.  It could be anything.  It could be a literal toaster.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[David Wright]

On Fri 16 Feb 2024 at 09:12:24 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> > Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> > settings are as expected:
> > 
> > $ locale
> > LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> > LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> > LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> > LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> > LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
> [...]
> 
> Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
> system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
> your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
> which is still quite unusual.

Could something weird here do that?

  $ grep LC /etc/ssh/*g
  /etc/ssh/ssh_config:SendEnv LANG LC_*
  /etc/ssh/sshd_config:AcceptEnv LANG LC_*
  $ 

Perhaps the OP's also sets SetEnv … in the client's config?

Cheers,
David.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 03:34:12PM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
> settings are as expected:
> 
> $ locale
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LANGUAGE=en_US:en
> LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
> LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
[...]

Well then, that just changes the mystery from "happens on the Debian
system I ssh into" to "happens on my ssh client".  For some reason,
your ssh client has all of those LC_* variables set in its environment,
which is still quite unusual.

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

Greg Wooledge  writes:

> On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 10:24:07AM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
>> With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
>> mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:
>> 
>> $ locale
>> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
>> LANGUAGE=
>> LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
>> LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
>> LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
>> LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
>> LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
>> LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
>> LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
>> LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
>> LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
>> LC_ALL=
>
> This is *extremely* abnormal locale output.  Here's mine:

Yah. It was ssh passing through all that. On serial console, locale
settings are as expected:

$ locale
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=en_US:en
LC_CTYPE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TIME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_COLLATE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_NAME="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.UTF-8"
LC_ALL=

Re: What sets LC_TIME?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 10:24:07AM +0200, Anssi Saari wrote:
> With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
> mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:
> 
> $ locale
> LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> LANGUAGE=
> LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
> LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
> LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
> LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
> LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
> LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
> LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
> LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
> LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
> LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
> LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
> LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
> LC_ALL=

This is *extremely* abnormal locale output.  Here's mine:

unicorn:~$ locale
LANG=en_US.utf8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE="en_US.utf8"
LC_NUMERIC="en_US.utf8"
LC_TIME=C
LC_COLLATE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MONETARY="en_US.utf8"
LC_MESSAGES="en_US.utf8"
LC_PAPER="en_US.utf8"
LC_NAME="en_US.utf8"
LC_ADDRESS="en_US.utf8"
LC_TELEPHONE="en_US.utf8"
LC_MEASUREMENT="en_US.utf8"
LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_US.utf8"
LC_ALL=

Do you see what's different?  The double quotes are meaningful here.
A value that's printed in double quotes is not actually set -- it's
deduced from LANG.  In my output, the only values that are actually
set are LANG and LC_TIME.

In yours, *every* variable is set (except LANGUAGE and LC_ALL).

> LC_TIME ends up with en_DK.utf8. It's what I usually want so I've
> probably set this up and possibly I did it in the Debian installer but
> where does it come from? /etc/default/locale has just LANG=en_US.UTF-8
> 
> find /etc /home/as -type f -print0 -follow|xargs -0 grep -e LC_TIME -e en_DK
> 
> does find some matches, in /etc/locale.gen as expected and in some
> binary files but not in any relevant config file. Come to think of it,
> is this actually hidden inside the initrd somehow?

I can't imagine how the initrd would be related.

My first suspicion would be your desktop environment, if you're running
one.  Who knows what those things do.

If you login on a text console (Ctrl-Alt-F2 for example), do you still
get these same locale values?  How about "ssh localhost" (if an ssh
server is installed)?  If those differ from what you see in your desktop
environment, then it's a strong indicator the DE is doing something.

What sets LC_TIME?

[Anssi Saari]

With the recent LC_ALL thread, I noticed I have LC_TIME set by
mysterious means on at least two headless systems, for example:

$ locale
LANG=en_US.UTF-8
LANGUAGE=
LC_CTYPE=en_US.utf8
LC_NUMERIC=en_US.utf8
LC_TIME=en_DK.utf8
LC_COLLATE=en_US.utf8
LC_MONETARY=en_US.utf8
LC_MESSAGES=en_US.utf8
LC_PAPER=en_US.utf8
LC_NAME=en_US.utf8
LC_ADDRESS=en_US.utf8
LC_TELEPHONE=en_US.utf8
LC_MEASUREMENT=en_US.utf8
LC_IDENTIFICATION=en_US.utf8
LC_ALL=

LC_TIME ends up with en_DK.utf8. It's what I usually want so I've
probably set this up and possibly I did it in the Debian installer but
where does it come from? /etc/default/locale has just LANG=en_US.UTF-8

find /etc /home/as -type f -print0 -follow|xargs -0 grep -e LC_TIME -e en_DK

does find some matches, in /etc/locale.gen as expected and in some
binary files but not in any relevant config file. Come to think of it,
is this actually hidden inside the initrd somehow?

solved: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> [...]
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

So this allowed me to install keyd[1] and with a simple config like
below, I get the tilde without shift and the backtick with shift.
Seems like a pretty cool daemon which can do a lot more than that :)


[ids]
*

[main]
` = ~

[shift]
` = `


[1]: https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd/tree/master

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
...
>> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.
>
> Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
> put a metal plate under it?

  Corsair K70 CORE RGB Mechanical Gaming Keyboard

  it is solid but stiff, it is also pretty quiet compared to a
model M and has no feel like it either, but i can cope with 
that.  the question is how long will it last?  :)  i will find
out...  if i can get three years out of it then i'm ahead of 
my trend with keyboards.  with mice it has been even worse,
but that was another thread...


[complete aside]

  texting on a phone is freaking hideous, i don't know how 
people get things done with those.  thank goodness most
phones have e-mail to text ways of sending and getting 
messages.


  songbird

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:28 +, debian-u...@howorth.org.uk wrote:
> hw  wrote:
> > On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > > [...]
> > >  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> > >   four major ways:  
> > 
> > It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.
> 
> If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
> mentioned as the second of the four ways.

Strange, it's also in the part you quoted.  I don't understand how I
missed that, sorry.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
>> hw wrote:
>> ...
>> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
>> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
>> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
>> 
>>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
>> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.
>
> Does that work with wayland?

  i'm using Debian testing, so whatever MATE is at in there
in respect to wayland is where i'm at.  i haven't intentionally
prevented changes from happening, but i'm also not sure wayland
is fully supported in MATE in testing right now.  i think
though that i run X11 still.


> With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
> There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
> others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
> atm.
>
> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

  i had 3 weeks of German in college about 40 years ago.
that's it other than Hogan's Heroes...  so, the answer
would be no.


>> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
>> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
>> time.
>
> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
> like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
> buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.
>
> The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
> tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
> floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.
>
> I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
> having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
> no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...
>
> Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
> can't hurt to check it out.

  good luck.  i don't have time or space to try GNOME out
again.  i went a long torturous route via GNOME, to KDE 
and back to GNOME for a short while and then disgusted at
it went to MATE and have been mostly happy there.  it is
a consistent interface enough that it doesn't get in my
way.  that's what i wanted stability and those others kept
destroying my efforts (or more accurately my lack of the
desire to figure out a new method of doing the same thing
without the interface making the wrong assumptions about
what i wanted it to do (stay out of the way :) ))...


> The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
> things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
> 122 keys.
>
> Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

  no idea.

  i'm content with 104.  i rarely use odd keys.  i have to
retrain myself to use the number pad because it really is
faster for when i'm editing numbers or doing data entry.


  songbird

Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[tomas]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 02:55:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > > keyboard?  It's insane.
> > 
> > While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,

[...]

> > But floats? Where's the problem?
> 
> I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
> number pad [...]

Ah, that was the missing piece, thanks.

[...]

> > Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!
> 
> Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
> ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

I /am/ using fvwm. Everything else would drive me nuts (more than
I am, already).

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 06:33 +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> > keyboard?  It's insane.
> 
> While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
> although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
> one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
> and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...
> 
> But floats? Where's the problem?

I'm entering numbers, like ipv4 addresses and floats, through the
number pad, with one hand.  Unless you change the keyboard layout so
you have a dot instead of a (useless) comma on the Del key, you can't
sanely enter such numbers, and you can't reasonably do it with one
hand.

Add to that that I'm using the trackball with my left hand and you
understand that I would have to take my hand off the trackball just to
enter such numbers.  Even then it would be nuisance.

> 
> [...]
> 
> > Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> > fvwm [...]
> 
> That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
> XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
> *my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
> at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
> little skull for the cursor :-)
> 
> Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Then why aren't you using fvwm?  Gnome is more your enemy than your
ally since it still lacks almost all configurability.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 01:37 -0500, Brian Sammon wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a
> Chromebook, and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the
> A key, where you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

Wow that's a very tall order!

> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.

At least there is a way :)

Have you been able to find the predefined keyboard layouts that can be
selected through gnome (or KDE) settings somewhere?  I was thinking if
I could find those, I might be able to make a copy of one and then
modify it they way I need it.  Or is that approach not even feasible?

I think I rather don't want to change the scancode-to-keycode mapping
but would want to change the keycode-to-key mapping like it's done
with xmodmap.

> And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not aware of any GUI
> config tools for it.

Well, I prefer that.

> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input

Hmm, that gives me wev to start with, as the equivalent of xev.

Is wayland using this XKB thing?  When I run 'setxkbmap -print
-verbose 10' I'm getting 'WARNING: Running setxkbmap against an
Xwayland server'.  Does that mean we're not supposed to do that and/or
that we're not supposed to use XKB?

> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ 
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa
> 
> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)

That's an interesting file indeed!

So I want to change that I have to press Shift+` to get a tilde to not
having to press Shift.  I. e. the key is the first key on top row of
my keyboard and has ` and ~ on it, and I want to just press it and get
a tilde.

Wev says 'key: 49'.  That is 0x31 which doesn't show up in this file.
Now what?

> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

According to that, 49 is KEY_N and 'tilde' doesn't exist.

> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)

Yeah it says something about that in the comments in 60-keyboard.hwdb.

> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files.

It seems to me that 60-keyboard.hwdb is intended to provide certain
keycodes --- i. e. symbols understood by the kernel since they seem to
show up in input-event-codes.h --- for a bunch of different keyboards.

That seems like the case Loris described with a laptop.  Perhaps he
would need to specify some (evdev) identifier for that particular
keyboard in 60-keyboard.hwdb, along with a mapping for the scancode
and the symbol --- and then somehow make a pull request or bug report
as described in the file.  Then these keys may end up working for
everyone with such a laptop.

> If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of
> your config file, (and you might think it just didn't see it)
> instead of giving an error message.

Hm, that's bad ...

Still I think this the wrong place to make changes for my case.  I
could try something with my keyboard, but I don't understand these
evdev designations in 60-keyboard.hwdb, so I won't even be able to
specify my keyboard to make settings for it.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Feb 06, 2024 at 12:04:16PM +0100, hw wrote:
> ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
> total 0
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
> drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..
> 
> But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev
hwdb.d/  rules.d/  udev.conf
unicorn:~$ ls /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
unicorn:~$ 

Looks like a blank slate.  Create your own rules, at your own risk.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[debian-user]

Brian Sammon  wrote:
> On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
> hw  wrote:
> 
> > Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard
> > layout?  
> 
> I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook,
> and I wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where
> you usually expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for
> Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a solution that would also work when I
> used an external keyboard (which has an actual CapsLock next to the
> A), and would work both in X and in console mode.
> 
> The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well,
> was to customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is
> managed by udev.  You can have different remappings for different
> keyboard models.
> 
> This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic,
> and somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile
> system; I'm not aware of any GUI config tools for it.
> 
> It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a
> scrambled pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean
> them up.  The next time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour
> (if the same process still applies) instead of the 15 minutes it
> would take if I did a proper job of documenting it for myself.
> 
> Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
> https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/
> (including some of the comments that contain more recent info)
> https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Many, many thanks for this post Brian. Those links are truly excellent.

> Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
> /lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
> /usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev
> package)
> 
> Gotchas include:
> Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
> Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
> For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the
> same as the example/sample config files. If you get this wrong, udev
> will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config file, (and you
> might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error message.
> 

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[debian-user]

hw  wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> > [...]
> >  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
> >   four major ways:  
> 
> It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

If you reread the wikipedia page, you'll see that umlaut keys are
mentioned as the second of the four ways.

> The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
> since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
> characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
> rather awkward and difficult to use.  Whoever created it has
> completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.
> 
> And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key.  That also has
> consequences that make things worse.
> 
> > 
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout  
> 
> 

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Tue, 2024-02-06 at 11:11 +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore
> 
> Untested:
> 
> https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
> User-specific XKB configuration - part 1
> 
> and I have heard about a low-level trick
> 
> /etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
> evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
>   KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

ls -la /etc/udev/hwdb.d/
total 0
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root  0 Jan 22 01:00 .
drwxr-xr-x. 1 root root 82 Feb  5 13:03 ..

But this is on Fedora, and perhaps Debian does it differently.

> However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
> handled by device firmware.

IIUC that is the case: The number of keys the PC hardware can deal
with is (was) limited, and it's less than 122.  There used to be
terminals that could use all 122 keys, using connectors that don't fit
PCs.  So a keyboard to be connected to a PC which has 122 keys is
either incompatibel, or you can't use all keys, or the
hardware/firmware in the keyboard translates (some) keys to what a PC
can understand.

In case of the 122 key keyoard I'm using, its hard-/firmware
translates keys like F14 to Shift+4.  IIRC that was the classical way
to press F14 (because someone made up that pressing Shift+F4 should be
called F14 because they wanted more keys for some software).  There is
probably no scan code for F14 a PC would understand because it doesn't
exist for a PC.  This keyboard has other keys like 'Help' that it also
translates to something a PC can understand.

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[Brian Sammon]

On Mon, 05 Feb 2024 21:06:30 +0100
hw  wrote:

> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

I recently dug into this because I am running Debian on a Chromebook, and I 
wanted to map the Google-key (located next to the A key, where you usually 
expect Caps-Lock to be) to be a Ctrl, for Emacs-Correctness.  I wanted a 
solution that would also work when I used an external keyboard (which has an 
actual CapsLock next to the A), and would work both in X and in console mode.

The solution I found, which should work when using Wayland as well, was to 
customize the lowlevel scancode-to-keycode mapping that is managed by udev.  
You can have different remappings for different keyboard models.

This keymapping system is very powerful, but somewhat ideosyncratic, and 
somewhat poorly documented.  And it's an edit-the-configfile system; I'm not 
aware of any GUI config tools for it.

It took me over 2 hours to figure out and set up, after which I had a scrambled 
pile of notes (in a text file) but not the energy to clean them up.  The next 
time I do it I expect it'll take me about an hour (if the same process still 
applies) instead of the 15 minutes it would take if I did a proper job of 
documenting it for myself.

Some of the webpages in my notes that I remember being useful are:
https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Keyboard_input
https://yulistic.gitlab.io/2017/12/linux-keymapping-with-udev-hwdb/ (including 
some of the comments that contain more recent info)
https://medium.com/@canadaduane/key-remapping-in-linux-2021-edition-47320999d2aa

Some somewhat-informative files on my computer were
/lib/udev/hwdb.d/60-keyboard.hwdb (comes with udev)
/usr/include/linux/input-event-codes.h (comes with linux-libc-dev package)

Gotchas include:
Some things *must* be in lowercase (keycodes, I think?)
Some things *must* be in uppercase (certain hexadecimal stuff?)
For best results, triple-check that the case you use is exactly the same as the 
example/sample config files.
If you get this wrong, udev will just ignore the erroneous parts of your config 
file, (and you might think it just didn't see it) instead of giving an error 
message.

On graphical environments [was: what keyboard do you use?]

[tomas]

On Mon, Feb 05, 2024 at 09:40:30PM +0100, hw wrote:

[...]

> Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
> keyboard?  It's insane.

While I do agree with other of your points (CTRL-] being one,
although you exaggerated by one key), I don't understand this
one. I'm entering IPv4 addresses every day in a German keyboard
and I don't see any problem. IPv6 is trickier, though...

But floats? Where's the problem?

[...]

> Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
> fvwm [...]

That's why I came full circle back from GNOME (with some stops in
XFCE, awesome) to fvwm. I like a setup where the window manager is
*my* ally, not that of some krazy applications (browsers, I'm looking
at you). Including a key combo for xkill (I even clawed back the
little skull for the cursor :-)

Fvwm does work in Debian. Try it!

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[David Wright]

On Fri 02 Feb 2024 at 20:25:09 (-0500), Lee wrote:
> I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
> 
> ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
> about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
> work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
> 
> I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
> Not great but OK.
> I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
> nothing but too thick for regular use.
> And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
> the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
> the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Most of the time I use a Logitech K520, bought with a unified mouse,
though I use it with a wired optical mouse. We have another K520 and
a K540, also with mice, though the mice are scattered around. The
540 says Logitech Europe, though it's a US layout like the rest.

I also have an M 1391406 keyboard from 1988, with a GB layout, so
it's got 102 keys. I use it on a 2011 Dell tower (which has PS/2
connectors), paired with a 20-year old Logitech Pilot 3-button.

In a cupboard we've also got a couple of MS Internet Pros (US) and
a Viglen (GB), all USB wired. I don't like their touch.

Cheers,
David.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Max Nikulin]

On 05/02/2024 18:37, hw wrote:

With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
wayland, I can't do that anymore


Untested:

https://who-t.blogspot.com/2020/02/user-specific-xkb-configuration-part-1.html
User-specific XKB configuration - part 1

and I have heard about a low-level trick

/etc/udev/hwdb.d/90-custom-keyboard.hwdb
evdev:input:b0003v1A2Cp0E24*
 KEYBOARD_KEY_70039=f14

However I am unsure if it is possible to remap "Fn" key, it may be 
handled by device firmware.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/5/24 14:11, Ash Joubert wrote:

On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:

Logitech K270
full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine


I use a Logitech MK270r 


good tip, packaged with a mouse for $6 more

thanks. I will get that bundle next time

Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the same keyboard. 
Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power switches on 
both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and not too 
loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have several of 
these sets for my various work and home computers.


Cheers,

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Ash Joubert]

On 06/02/2024 04:15, Peter Ehlert wrote:

Logitech K270
full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine


I use a Logitech MK270r Wireless Keyboard and Mouse Combo which has the 
same keyboard. Full-size standard layout plus media keys, physical power 
switches on both keyboard and mouse. I find the keyboard comfortable and 
not too loud, and the compact mouse suits my smallish hands. I have 
several of these sets for my various work and home computers.


Cheers,

--
Ash Joubert (they/them) 
Director / Game Developer
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 14:34 -0600, David Wright wrote:
> [...]
>  "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
>   four major ways:

It's missing out on yet another major way: Umlaute.

The Umlaute take whole keys for themselves like other letters, and
since there aren't any more keys on the keyboard, they replace other
characters which contributes to the German keyboard layout being
rather awkward and difficult to use.  Whoever created it has
completely overlooked that computers aren't typewriters.

And it's very bad not to have a right Alt key.  That also has
consequences that make things worse.

> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_keyboard_layout

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Steve McIntyre]

Lee wrote:
>
>I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(
>
>ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
>about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
>work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.
>
>I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
>which keyboard do you like and why?

I used to love the old IBM Model M, and I used a few of those over the
years until I started having trouble with USB-PS/2 adapters. Then I
tried a new Unicomp USB keyboard. Very similar feel, as you'd expect,
but it didn't have the same build quality and the lower row of keys
started to die after ~5 years or so. It was also *very* loud, enough
to be a problem even in my home office.

About 2y aho I picked up a Filco Majestouch-2 with Cherry MX Brown
switches. I'm loving it - full size and a good level of mechanical
tactile feedback WITHOUT ALL THE NOISE ALL THE TIME. Very much
recommended.

-- 
Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com
Can't keep my eyes from the circling sky,
Tongue-tied & twisted, Just an earth-bound misfit, I...

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0800, James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:
> > I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
> > which keyboard do you like and why?
> 
> Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling 
> spring technology.
> 
> If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

... and trackballs like CST ones, and full metal versions.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:46 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> ...
> > It's a badly missing feature from gnome settings that we can't change
> > the key bindings.  The layout must be defined somewhere, though.
> > Maybe someone knows where that is?
> 
>   in MATE there's keyboard settings you can use to switch
> around keyboards and common keys being swapped.

Does that work with wayland?

With a German keyboard, one of the keys I need to change is ~.
There's also ` when you get to do with databases, and a bunch of
others, like changing comma to dot and more that don't come to mind
atm.

Have you ever entered ipv4 addresses (and floats) on a German
keyboard?  It's insane.

> i don't use them now, but did in the past.  likely GNOME has
> something similar but i haven't touched that desktop in quite a long
> time.

Gnome has actually become usable about 2 years ago, though I miss
fvwm, and the lack of configurability with Gnome sucks badly.  I'd
like KDE much better, but KDE has always been rather slow and too
buggy.  When I tried KDE with wayland it didn't really work at all.

The only alternative I know of is sway, but I don't get along with
tiling WMs.  I like the idea; the problem is that they need to do
floating windows just as well, and they don't do that.

I had fvwm configured so it would manage the windows for me instead of
having to manage them myself, including tiling, but as long there's
no wayland version of fvwm, we're stuck with KDE and Gnome ...

Maybe give Gnome another try.  It does have its advantages, and it
can't hurt to check it out.

The additional keys on my 122 key keyboard help with Gnome (and other
things) a great deal.  So if you want to get a kind of Model M, get
122 keys.

Who still makes 122 key keyboards except Unicomp?

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[Ralph Aichinger]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 21:06 +0100, hw wrote:
> And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed to mean?

"Strg" is short for "Steuerung", just the literal translation of 
"control".

/ralph

Re: How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[David Wright]

On Mon 05 Feb 2024 at 21:06:30 (+0100), hw wrote:
> On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> > hw  writes:
> > > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > > > 
> > > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > > localization experience.
> > > 
> > > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> > > 
> > > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > > German layout.
> > 
> > Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> > regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
> > layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> > default shortcut of 'Super + space'.
> 
> Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?
> 
> We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
> change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
> layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
> able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
> layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
> the keyboard to be usable.
> 
> And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
> example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
> US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
> have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
> 30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
> to mean?

Control.

> So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
> no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
> should be?
> 
> Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
> entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
> to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.
> 
> In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
> many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
> the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
> time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
> especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
> work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
> able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
> US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.
> 
> It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
> switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
> the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.
> 
> [1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

 "The German layout differs from the English (US and UK) layouts in
  four major ways:

The positions of the "Z" and "Y" keys are switched. In English,
the letter "y" is very common and the letter "z" is relatively
rare, whereas in German the letter "z" is very common and the
letter "y" is very uncommon.[1] The German layout places "z" in a
position where it can be struck by the index finger, rather than
by the weaker little finger.

Part of the keyboard is adapted to include umlauted vowels (ä, ö,
ü) and the sharp s (ß). (Some newer types of German keyboards
offer the fixed assignment Alt+++H → ẞ for its capitalized
version.)

Some of special key inscriptions are changed to a graphical symbol
(e.g. ⇪ Caps Lock is an upward arrow, ← Backspace a leftward
arrow). Most of the other abbreviations are replaced by German
abbreviations (thus e.g. "Ctrl" is translated to its German
equivalent "Strg", for Steuerung). "Esc" remains as

How can we change the keyboard layout? (was: what keyboard do you use?)

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 15:26 +0100, Loris Bennett wrote:
> hw  writes:
> 
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
> > > On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
> > > > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
> > > 
> > > Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
> > > surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
> > > to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
> > > because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
> > > layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
> > > localization experience.
> > 
> > We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
> > 
> > With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> > wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> > which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> > German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> > able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> > German layout.
> 
> Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
> regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
> layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
> default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

Yes, it's a misunderstanding: How can we change the keyboard layout?

We can only pick or add another of the available layouts, but we can't
change them.  If I were using a German keyboard, I could pick a German
layout, and it would be a good starting point --- but I still won't be
able to change the layout.  Some characters on a German keyboard (and
layout) are placed very badly, and I need to change some of them for
the keyboard to be usable.

And try to figure out how to press ^] on a German keyboard, for
example, like telnet used to tell you.  It's no problem at all with an
US keyboard without any modification.  With a German keyboard, you
have to press something like AltGr+Shift+Strg+] ...  It took me like
30 years or so before I managed.  And what the hell is 'Strg' supposed
to mean?

So how do we change keyboard layouts when using wayland?  Why is there
no way to do that in gnome settings (or KDEs equivalent) like there
should be?

Picking from/adding a bunch of available keyboard layouts is an
entirely obsolete feature.  I never need that.  I only need to be able
to change the keyboard layout after picking one once in the installer.

In case I switch to a different keyboard which I might do every so
many years when I feel like doing that, I also need to change it for
the console in the first place.  How that is done changes like all the
time, and when it's not right, the keyboard won't work right,
especially in that the function keys to switch between consoles don't
work[1].  So that's a big issue right there --- and then I need to be
able to change the keyboard layout in wayland sessions unless I use an
US keyboard.  But I only have one of those.

It's certainly a good feature for the 7 people who keep between
switching different keyboard layouts and/or keyboards frequently.  But
the relevant feature everyone needs is now entirely missing.


[1]: Maybe that changed with wayland; I haven't tried yet.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[hw]

On Mon, 2024-02-05 at 08:40 -0500, songbird wrote:
> hw wrote:
> > On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
> ...
> > >   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
> > > still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
> > > me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
> > > cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
> > > tabs break off.
> > > 
> > >   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
> > 
> > IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> > that it's too wobbly for you?
> 
>   it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
> use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
> flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
> here on my comfy perch

Hm, ok, I still find it amazing that it's so wobbly that the
wobblyness is causing issues since it's still relatively sturdy
compared to other keyboards.  They're not inflexible, though, so using
like them like this, it's not inconvieable that they break.

That pretty much leaves you with having to put a metal plate (like a
piece of 3mm aluminum) under any keyboard, and that'll probably make
it feel cold in your lap.

> [...]
>   i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
> of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
> issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
> connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
> was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
> but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
> strikes and i'm done with them.

I'm sorry to hear that.  It seems like they cut back on the models and
options a bit, so perhaps they also cut back on customer service.  I
can't tell since I was so lucky as to get mine through German ebay,
and it cost less than what they cost new though it was practically
new.  The shipping alone may cost more than the keyboard itself if I
were to order directly from them :(

>   i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
> their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
> the overall price is just too much ($300-500).

Oh!  I didn't notice that they have come this far and now even offer
different models!  I didn't like the layout of the Model F they
planned a few years ago, and I found the price too steep for a
keyboard the layout of which I don't want.

I'll have to check out their web site; if I could get a F104 Model M
in all metal for 300, it may be worth thinking about getting one ---
but the shipping will probably forbid it.

I do like full size keyboards like the Model M and even more so the
122 key version.  It kinda sucks that every other keyboard is smaller,
especially since the keys are squeezed so tightly together that it can
be difficult to type on it.  The Cherry G80, for example, has that
problem --- it's almost as if Casio designed it like their watches
since they're trying to sell those with bracelets sized for puppets
and small children, which are way too short for anyone with normal
size wrists.

> $80 for what i have now was acceptable.

Which one is that?  It must be an unusually sturdy one.  Or did you
put a metal plate under it?

> [*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/4/24 9:56 AM, Michael Kjörling wrote:


If you contact them and ask, they can probably tell you whether the
key caps . . . can be flipped physically.


Unicomp can and will make custom keycaps.

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

I also wouldn't mind one bit if somebody came up with a computer 
keyboard that exactly duplicates the key arrangement and feel of a 
Linotype keyboard.


Not for practical daily use, mind you (I'll stick with my Unicomps); 
rather, as a practice instrument for those who occasionally run Linotype 
and Intertype machines, and for interpretive exhibits in graphic arts 
museums (given that I spend my Saturdays docenting at the International 
Printing Museum, I'd find both useful).


"etaoin shrdlu"

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 2/2/24 5:25 PM, Lee wrote:

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?


Unicomp. They acquired the rights and the tooling for the IBM buckling 
spring technology.


If only they also offered mice that were as rugged as their keyboards.

--
JHHL

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Peter Ehlert]

On 2/2/24 17:25, Lee wrote:

I bought a Dell desktop in 2019 and the keyboard just died :(

ssh in from another machine & do a 'sudo reboot now' and get an alert
about 'Keyboard not found.'  on power up.  The keyboard also doesn't
work in another machine so it's really & truly dead.

I figure there's a high percentage of keyboard jockeys here so ..
which keyboard do you like and why?


Logitech K270

full size, simple, $22 USD, fits me just fine




I have a Logitech k740 attached to my Windows machine which is ok.
Not great but OK.
I found a spare Logitech k120 keyboard in the closet; its better than
nothing but too thick for regular use.
And the old Dell keyboard from the Windows machine - also too thick,
the keys are too cramped and lettering has worn off on about 1/4 of
the keys (which is why I got the Logitech 740)

Thanks
Lee

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[Loris Bennett]

hw  writes:

> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 18:23 +, Michael Kjörling wrote:
>> On 4 Feb 2024 12:08 -0600, from n...@n0nb.us (Nate Bargmann):
>> > xmodmap trickery?  I am running GNOME on Wayland.
>> 
>> Or whatever the equivalent in Wayland (or GNOME) might be. Either way,
>> surely there must be _some_ way to map (sets of) keyboard scan codes
>> to symbols or actions, and that way is almost certainly reconfigurable
>> because otherwise everyone would be stuck with the exact same keyboard
>> layout, which would make for a rather poor internationalization/
>> localization experience.
>
> We are stuck with it :(  Last time I checked, KDE isn't any better.
>
> With xmodmap, I was able to adjust the layout as needed.  With
> wayland, I can't do that anymore and I'm stuck with an US layout ---
> which my keyboard fortunately physically has --- because some keys on
> German keyboards are so badly placed and configured that I need to be
> able to change the layout if want to use a German keyboard with a
> German layout.

Maybe I have misunderstood the problem, but I use Gnome with Wayland and
regularly switch between US and German layouts.  I just added the German
layout in the 'Keyboard' section of Gnome's Settings and switch with the
default shortcut of 'Super + space'.

> It's one of these basic things we shouldn't need to have any trouble
> at all with, and it really pisses me off.
>
> All the developers are proabably Americans and never come across this
> problem.  Why else won't they let us change the keyobard layout as we
> need to.

-- 
This signature is currently under constuction.

Re: what keyboard do you use?

[songbird]

hw wrote:
> On Sun, 2024-02-04 at 09:43 -0500, songbird wrote:
...
>>   if they made them with a metal base mine would probably
>> still be working, but the plastic base is too flexible for
>> me.  i have two dead ones.  :(  the pressure fitted ribbon
>> cable connection is a really bad design and those plastic
>> tabs break off.
>> 
>>   otherwise the feel is good.  very loud when i'm writing...
>
> IIRC IBM omitted the metal plate long time ago.  What are you doing
> that it's too wobbly for you?

  it's not wobbly it is the entire keyboard flexes when you
use it in a non-conventional manner.  i do not use them on a
flat desktop, i have them laying across my lap as a am laying
here on my comfy perch (i find sitting uncomfortable and 
eventually painful so i don't do it any more - instead i
sprawl out and have some pillows propping me up a little bit).

  i didn't really figure this out until it was too late for
the second keyboard (a replacement for the first which flaked
out right after the warranty period was up).  after i got the
2nd keyboard i took the first one apart hoping i could fix it
but there were broken plastic tabs and then the pressure
ribbon connection so i just left it aside for parts for the 
new one.  the new one also started having issues within about
a year and a half.

  the first keyboard may have been damaged in shipping based
upon the broken plastic tabs inside, but i can't say for sure
all i know is that it is not built sturdy enough for my use.

  if i knew that flexing was bad i could have come up with a
board or piece of metal to put underneath it to begin with.
this is why i'm mentioning it because there may be someone
else who sees this topic/thread who's doing something like i
am and i don't want them to be out of a keyboard that other-
wise may last quite a long time.

  if i can find a way to get keyboards functional again with-
out costing so much (the pressure ribbon connection just is
not seeming reliable enough) i'd love to have them working
again.  youtube vids are not really covering how to do this
sort of repair (making that connection reliable again).

  i won't contact Unicomp again because despite their claims
of having goals of great customer service i tried to resolve
issues of a bad key and this repeated issue of malfunctioning
connections and didn't get any satisfaction.  the key problem
was noted and should have been covered under the 1yr warranty,
but when i brought it up i got static and resistance.  three
strikes and i'm done with them.

  i did like the restored keyboard project[*] and read through
their website and history to follow it for a few hours but
the overall price is just too much ($300-500).  $80 for what
i have now was acceptable.

[*] https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/


  songbird