[FRIAM] Household vortices, redux
Steve S., You and I are the only two participants in that discussion to have presented any empirical evidence. In the spirit of experimental collegiality, would you try my experiment, and report back to me. Fill a basin with water Set it to spinning in a concerted way. Be careful not to impose any more turbulence than you have to. Just help the water to decide which way it is going to spin. Now pull the plug. Watch the water level fall while also watching the organization of the vortex. At some point the natural vortex will fall in line with the artificial vortex you have imposed, or vv. When that happens, the rate at which the water line moves down the basin wall will slow dramatically while the vortex spins ferociously. You will think for a moment . this could go on forever . and then it doesnt. If the gradient is the water, above, no water below gradient, AND the gradient dissipation consists of moving the water downward (all suspicious assumptions), then the vortex is certainly slowing the dissipation of that gradient. If, on the other hand, the gradient has something to do with energy, which I dont understand, obviously¸ then somebody like SG might argue that the very ferocity of the ineffectually spinning vortex is natures way of working off the energy gradient, like somebody exercising after a large thanksgiving dinner. The idea would be that a ferociously spinning vortex is a better way to dissipate the potential energy in the water than having the water flow down through the drain. So nature chooses that path. Thus, the same facts (the formation of the vortex slows the draining of the water) could be seen as supporting or countering the theory that dissipative structures hasten dissipation. Which means I have to have a better idea of what is being dissipated by a dissipatory structure. Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org http://www.cusf.org/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Household vortices, redux
Nick and all, If the following comment has already been made (and disposed of), please accept my apologies (the house was full of visitors for a while and I stopped keeping up with my mail). One thing that leaps to my eye in the description of the empirical experiment made by Nick, and suggested to Steve by Nick, is the opacity of the pull the plug part-- both figurative and literal opacity, since (I am assuming) Nick hasn't got one of those nifty all-glass_ sinks that used to show up in commercials for Drano). Is it possible that there is some structure of a vorticial sort located (just) out of sight, within the water that is exiting the basin (and the drain pipe through which it is exiting), and that the energy/organization/whatever of *that* part of the total water/basin/drain pipe system is closely (though obscurely) coupled to the visible vortice(s), in such a way that the observed phenomena follow more obviously from the facts-including-the-hidden-subsystem than they seem to be doing from only the facts-not- including-the-hidden-subsystem? (Peter L., does that sound even remotely reasonable from your informed perspective on fluid flow?) You and I are the only two participants in that discussion to have presented any empirical evidence. In the spirit of experimental collegiality, would you try my experiment, and report back to me. Fill a basin with water Set it to spinning in a concerted way. Be careful not to impose any more turbulence than you have to. Just help the water to decide which way it is going to spin. Now pull the plug. Watch the water level fall while also watching the organization of the vortex. At some point the natural vortex will fall in line with the artificial vortex you have imposed, or vv. When that happens, the rate at which the water line moves down the basin wall will slow dramatically while the vortex spins ferociously. You will think for a moment this could go on forever and then it doesn´t. If the gradient is the water, above, no water below gradient, AND the gradient dissipation consists of moving the water downward (all suspicious assumptions), then the vortex is certainly slowing the dissipation of that gradient. If, on the other hand, the gradient has something to do with energy, which I don´t understand, obviously¸ then somebody like SG might argue that the very ferocity of the ineffectually spinning vortex is nature´s way of working off the energy gradient, like somebody exercising after a large thanksgiving dinner. The idea would be that a ferociously spinning vortex is a better way to dissipate the potential energy in the water than having the water flow down through the drain. So nature chooses that path. Thus, the same facts (the formation of the vortex slows the draining of the water) could be seen as supporting or countering the theory that dissipative structures hasten dissipation. Which means I have to have a better idea of what is being dissipated by a dissipatory structure. Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org http://www.cusf.org/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] Household vortices, redux
Lee, Yep! There is that little grid in the mouth of the drain and the little tornado thingy generally forms on the hole at the center of that grid. Doesn't explain why the water leaving the drain starts to slow down when the natural vortex forms, by comparison with the circumstance in which I don't decide for the vortex which way to form. The phenomenon is: if you impart a turn to the water before you pull the plug, it takes as much as 2 and a half times longer for the basin to drain. Anybody else observe that? Are you asking why does a vortex form at all? Are you assuming that the drain is rifled in some sense and that a vortex wouldn't form without the rifling. Somehow I doubt that. N Pull the plug is, in my case, to remove the thing that ... um ... plugs the drain. One way to impart a spin on the water is to give the plug -- actually a strainer with a rubber seal on the bottom -- a twist as you pull it. Not sure that works as well as actually paddling the water around in the basin to get it turning before you pull the plug. -Original Message- From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of lrudo...@meganet.net Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 12:16 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Cc: Steve Smith Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Household vortices, redux Nick and all, If the following comment has already been made (and disposed of), please accept my apologies (the house was full of visitors for a while and I stopped keeping up with my mail). One thing that leaps to my eye in the description of the empirical experiment made by Nick, and suggested to Steve by Nick, is the opacity of the pull the plug part-- both figurative and literal opacity, since (I am assuming) Nick hasn't got one of those nifty all-glass_ sinks that used to show up in commercials for Drano). Is it possible that there is some structure of a vorticial sort located (just) out of sight, within the water that is exiting the basin (and the drain pipe through which it is exiting), and that the energy/organization/whatever of *that* part of the total water/basin/drain pipe system is closely (though obscurely) coupled to the visible vortice(s), in such a way that the observed phenomena follow more obviously from the facts-including-the-hidden-subsystem than they seem to be doing from only the facts-not- including-the-hidden-subsystem? (Peter L., does that sound even remotely reasonable from your informed perspective on fluid flow?) You and I are the only two participants in that discussion to have presented any empirical evidence. In the spirit of experimental collegiality, would you try my experiment, and report back to me. Fill a basin with water Set it to spinning in a concerted way. Be careful not to impose any more turbulence than you have to. Just help the water to decide which way it is going to spin. Now pull the plug. Watch the water level fall while also watching the organization of the vortex. At some point the natural vortex will fall in line with the artificial vortex you have imposed, or vv. When that happens, the rate at which the water line moves down the basin wall will slow dramatically while the vortex spins ferociously. You will think for a moment this could go on forever and then it doesn´t. If the gradient is the water, above, no water below gradient, AND the gradient dissipation consists of moving the water downward (all suspicious assumptions), then the vortex is certainly slowing the dissipation of that gradient. If, on the other hand, the gradient has something to do with energy, which I don´t understand, obviously¸ then somebody like SG might argue that the very ferocity of the ineffectually spinning vortex is nature´s way of working off the energy gradient, like somebody exercising after a large thanksgiving dinner. The idea would be that a ferociously spinning vortex is a better way to dissipate the potential energy in the water than having the water flow down through the drain. So nature chooses that path. Thus, the same facts (the formation of the vortex slows the draining of the water) could be seen as supporting or countering the theory that dissipative structures hasten dissipation. Which means I have to have a better idea of what is being dissipated by a dissipatory structure. Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology Clark University http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ http://www.cusf.org http://www.cusf.org/ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St.
Re: [FRIAM] Household vortices, redux
Are you asking why does a vortex form at all? No. Are you assuming that the drain is rifled in some sense and that a vortex wouldn't form without the rifling. No, that hadn't occurred to me, and I don't think (having done my share of household-level plumbing) that drains are rifled in any sense. Like Isaac Newton (not Abraham Lincoln's secretary of agriculture, who should be better known than he is for having written there is no logic so irresistible as the logic of statistics; some other guy of the same name), I am not feigning (or framing) hypotheses on these matters, at the moment anyway. I was mainly pointing out that your reported observation, about the (great) slowness to drain of a vortex-infested sinkful of water, *is* an observation *about a sink full of water*, not (just) about the visible part of the water, or even (just) about the water and the visible surfaces of the sink. At least part of the water that is already out of sight (at any particular time during the process of draining the sink) is most definitely mechanically involved with whatever is happening, as is at least part of the sink (the top bits of the drainpipe) that is out of sight during the whole experiment, because that water (rather, the outer layers thereof) is touching that part of the sink. Like the man said, no system is an island, entire of itself; every system is a subsystem of the Universe, a part of the main ... And therefore never send to know for whom entropy increases; it increases for thee. --Not that I'm framing any hypotheses about order or disorder, mind you. FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
[FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment)
I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton . Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 - Original Message - FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment)
But peter. I actually did an experiment. So, your criticism has to shift from calling me an air head to calling my experiment dumb … and,, presumably, having reasons why it’s dumb. N From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of plissa...@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:16 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment) I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 _ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment)
Nick, Peter - It is good to see the curmudgeons with their curmudgeons out. Maybe we can get Doug to flail (swirl?) his too! grin and I think we have a few others here as well... Meanwhile, we are having a soiree tonight that I invite you (all) to, to celebrate the rain falling on the fire just uphill from us... Sort of a raindance, our native (Lakota) friend begged off cuz he's going to a sweat tonight and Doug is out of pocket himself, oh wait... Nick is in Massachusetts (damn you have a lot of ss's and tt's in that state name!) ! Peter.. if you are game, you can find us via google maps at 3 Bundy Rd, Otowi, NM... we'll be reveling for a number of hours yet! No basin-drain experiments, however... I promise (hope?)! Funny thing is that the rain is falling *strictly* inside the San Ildefonso and Santa Clara boundaries. Of course this is very good news as Santa Clara Canyon and just north were the most threatening parts of the fire of late. I think they might be dead out from that. No evidence of same in the south or west... and Pacheco Canyon looks like it's getting a bit of a dousing, but I can't see for the smoke (steam)? Carry on! - Steve But peter. I actually did an experiment. So, your criticism has to shift from calling me an air head to calling my experiment dumb … and,, presumably, having reasons why it’s dumb. N *From:*friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *plissa...@comcast.net *Sent:* Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:16 PM *To:* friam@redfish.com *Subject:* [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment) I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 tel:%28505%29983-7728 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] symmetry breaking
Hello All, Years ago I ran some funky little tests spinning liquid epoxy on a platter to attempt perfect parabolas. The equations required angular velocity and viscosity to get the correct equation for curvature. If your sink is analogous then the swirling motion should leave the water near the drain at the lowest point with the lowest pressure. The surface near or at the margins should contain more water. The surface area has also changed. So now you should get a long soda straw and stick into the drain and see if there is a relationship to the air in the system trying to escape the drain . A suggestion, set up a free Sky Drive account and dump some video with notes and we can all have a look without the Viagra adverts. Sprinkle some floaters ( rubber duckies) and see how they travel perhaps. Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD mailto:vbur...@shaw.ca vbur...@shaw.ca 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2 Canada (204) 2548321 Land From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: June-30-11 1:32 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] symmetry breaking So here's a vortex game for you all. There is a fleet of sail boats racing from Newport, Rhode Island across the Atlantic to the mouth of the English Channel. If you go to http://www.nyyc.org/transatlantic/ and click on [Tracker] you'll get a map of the North Atlantic with the positions and tracks of the boats marked. The red line is the great circle from south of Nantucket to the finish, the shortest path. Up on the control bar there's a button which will turn on a wind direction/intensity overlay so you can see the low pressure SE of Greenland with an eastern arm that stretches almost to the Azores; the high pressures centered west of Brest, SW of Greenland, way south of the Great Banks; and the head wind that the fleet is beating into. There's a slider under the weather button which allows you to step the wind overlay forward in time to the predicted winds at 3hour intervals in the future. Find the fastest path given where the wind is, how well you can drive the boat, and where you expect you and the wind will be on the next watch. The wind arrows the map shows are from the freely available NOAA GRIB models, but most of those boats are getting the best weather predictions that money can buy. Human ingenuity vs fluid dynamics, the state of the art, no doubt getting very wet at the moment. -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: There are several papers from Ken Dill and students that deal with these approaches. And i don't think you missed them, they turned up after a discussion on Maximum Entropy Production principles. -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: On 6/30/11 8:02 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: Thanks, Eric, for taking the question seriously. I will study your answer with care. Ask a simple question, and waddya get? Another day older and deeper in (conceptual) debt! Eric says: All these flow problems that we talk about are not described by equilibrium ensembles; they are ensembles of processes. Of course, everybody says that, but apparently most of the time people don't act as if saying that should then carry meaning for what they think afterward. (Like other mantras, its function appears to be to suppress pre-frontal cortex activity.) What a great insight! I wonder how much of our blather here on this list is in fact crafted or selected for it's ability to suppress pre-frontal cortex activity? Wow! While we *think* we are promoting pre-frontal activity, we may very well be supressing it! I wonder if there is a simple heuristic for recognizing mantras in clear text? Going recursive here, I wonder about the brain-state/chemistry that might be involved in our (my!) propensity for (near) idle speculation about things I know just enough about to be dangerous. There seems to be something very soothing about this kind of speculation... hmmm? As for the rest of your (Eric) response! What a lot to unpack... I mostly get process vs equilibrium ensembles, spaces of histories and and some of the entropy talk, but am lost entirely on the topic of competing definitions of diffusion and it's precise relevance to this conversation... I'll give it my best shot though... dig a little deeper. I believe This is the Dill paper http://www.google.com/url?sa=tsource=webcd=1ved=0CBYQFjAAurl=http%3A%2F %2Fwww.dillgroup.ucsf.edu%2Fdl_papers%2FJCP2008Stock.pdfrct=jq=ken%20dill% 20caliberei=_KIMTqSdNZT2swOvkLCQDgusg=AFQjCNF1QwcT3WourQaoLPT8EvAX1tfG4ws ig2=0YsVN6J1NJanyAIYt3rszQcad=rja you refer to? I missed it the first time it was passed around I think. Or with your just-out re-attribution to RC, rather than NT And here is a lecture by Dill
Re: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment) (action)
Hello all- I am following this thread with interest because of similarities between gedanken experiments and the classic creative processes: an idea, whether potential scientific theory or potential visual/ multimedia theory is clarified, then attempted in the mind, possible / probable effects are visualized, the form still in the mind is examined again to assess whether it is worth further exploration, and if so it is then run physically- as an experiment, as a fabrication. I'd assume that gedanken experiments have a lot of depth, based on my studies of the process as a version of creation. Creation is complex. I am not so far seeing any difference in the process between what you all are discussing and what I do in my studio. To test my gedanken experiment, and see how similar or different this process is, I invite a group of you to my studio. I work in a very accessible material - some of you were at my presentation at SFX a couple of years ago and made things then. Owen, are you listening? I am serious about this. Due to a major project, I can't do this until after the beginning of August: you all have lots going on and many of you don't even live here. But those of you who are local and want to pursue how gendanken experiments work, and have moved to the part of the process where you test things in the real world, let's see what happens. Victoria (if you're coming to my studio, you can call me Tory) I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment)
Be there within the hour. Want anything? TJ's is on the way. Tory On Jul 2, 2011, at 6:03 PM, Steve Smith wrote: Nick, Peter - It is good to see the curmudgeons with their curmudgeons out. Maybe we can get Doug to flail (swirl?) his too! grin and I think we have a few others here as well... Meanwhile, we are having a soiree tonight that I invite you (all) to, to celebrate the rain falling on the fire just uphill from us... Sort of a raindance, our native (Lakota) friend begged off cuz he's going to a sweat tonight and Doug is out of pocket himself, oh wait... Nick is in Massachusetts (damn you have a lot of ss's and tt's in that state name!) ! Peter.. if you are game, you can find us via google maps at 3 Bundy Rd, Otowi, NM... we'll be reveling for a number of hours yet! No basin-drain experiments, however... I promise (hope?)! Funny thing is that the rain is falling *strictly* inside the San Ildefonso and Santa Clara boundaries. Of course this is very good news as Santa Clara Canyon and just north were the most threatening parts of the fire of late. I think they might be dead out from that. No evidence of same in the south or west... and Pacheco Canyon looks like it's getting a bit of a dousing, but I can't see for the smoke (steam)? Carry on! - Steve But peter. I actually did an experiment. So, your criticism has to shift from calling me an air head to calling my experiment dumb … and,, presumably, having reasons why it’s dumb. N From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf ofplissa...@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:16 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment) I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment)
We're all celebrating this moisture. On Jul 2, 2011, at 6:03 PM, Steve Smith wrote: Nick, Peter - It is good to see the curmudgeons with their curmudgeons out. Maybe we can get Doug to flail (swirl?) his too! grin and I think we have a few others here as well... Meanwhile, we are having a soiree tonight that I invite you (all) to, to celebrate the rain falling on the fire just uphill from us... Sort of a raindance, our native (Lakota) friend begged off cuz he's going to a sweat tonight and Doug is out of pocket himself, oh wait... Nick is in Massachusetts (damn you have a lot of ss's and tt's in that state name!) ! Peter.. if you are game, you can find us via google maps at 3 Bundy Rd, Otowi, NM... we'll be reveling for a number of hours yet! No basin-drain experiments, however... I promise (hope?)! Funny thing is that the rain is falling *strictly* inside the San Ildefonso and Santa Clara boundaries. Of course this is very good news as Santa Clara Canyon and just north were the most threatening parts of the fire of late. I think they might be dead out from that. No evidence of same in the south or west... and Pacheco Canyon looks like it's getting a bit of a dousing, but I can't see for the smoke (steam)? Carry on! - Steve But peter. I actually did an experiment. So, your criticism has to shift from calling me an air head to calling my experiment dumb … and,, presumably, having reasons why it’s dumb. N From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of plissa...@comcast.net Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 5:16 PM To: friam@redfish.com Subject: [FRIAM] A Happy Thought (experiment) I was amazed to learn that gedanken experiments involve so much depth. I had thought thought experiments were just simple tests that it would be VERY nice to do, but for various reasons could not be executed. Like having all gedanken foolosofers leap from high buildings (under humane and controlled conditions) and their trajectories measured to determine whether they obey the laws of gravity and Newton. Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures Expertise is not knowing everything, but knowing what to look for. 1454 Miracerros Loop South, Santa Fe, New Mexico 87505,USA tel:(505)983-7728 FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org In humans, the brain is already the hungriest part of our body: at 2 percent of our body weight, this greedy tapeworm of an organ wolfs down 20 percent of the calories that we expend at rest. Douglas Fox, Scientific American FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Re: [FRIAM] symmetry breaking
Vladimyr, I love it! I am going on a trip, so unless my host is particularly forgiving, fear that I wont be able to try it at his house, but I sure will when I get back. Contrary to Lee, I don't think, however, that confined water has anything to do with it. Plumbing systems have pressure release pipes that vent gas upward as water rushes downward from the sink. But the straw is a nice test of that proposition. Nick From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky Sent: Saturday, July 02, 2011 8:54 PM To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' Subject: Re: [FRIAM] symmetry breaking Hello All, Years ago I ran some funky little tests spinning liquid epoxy on a platter to attempt perfect parabolas. The equations required angular velocity and viscosity to get the correct equation for curvature. If your sink is analogous then the swirling motion should leave the water near the drain at the lowest point with the lowest pressure. The surface near or at the margins should contain more water. The surface area has also changed. So now you should get a long soda straw and stick into the drain and see if there is a relationship to the air in the system trying to escape the drain . A suggestion, set up a free Sky Drive account and dump some video with notes and we can all have a look without the Viagra adverts. Sprinkle some floaters ( rubber duckies) and see how they travel perhaps. Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky PhD vbur...@shaw.ca 120-1053 Beaverhill Blvd. Winnipeg,Manitoba, R2J3R2 Canada (204) 2548321 Land From: friam-boun...@redfish.com [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Sent: June-30-11 1:32 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] symmetry breaking So here's a vortex game for you all. There is a fleet of sail boats racing from Newport, Rhode Island across the Atlantic to the mouth of the English Channel. If you go to http://www.nyyc.org/transatlantic/ and click on [Tracker] you'll get a map of the North Atlantic with the positions and tracks of the boats marked. The red line is the great circle from south of Nantucket to the finish, the shortest path. Up on the control bar there's a button which will turn on a wind direction/intensity overlay so you can see the low pressure SE of Greenland with an eastern arm that stretches almost to the Azores; the high pressures centered west of Brest, SW of Greenland, way south of the Great Banks; and the head wind that the fleet is beating into. There's a slider under the weather button which allows you to step the wind overlay forward in time to the predicted winds at 3hour intervals in the future. Find the fastest path given where the wind is, how well you can drive the boat, and where you expect you and the wind will be on the next watch. The wind arrows the map shows are from the freely available NOAA GRIB models, but most of those boats are getting the best weather predictions that money can buy. Human ingenuity vs fluid dynamics, the state of the art, no doubt getting very wet at the moment. -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:13 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: There are several papers from Ken Dill and students that deal with these approaches. And i don't think you missed them, they turned up after a discussion on Maximum Entropy Production principles. -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 11:00 AM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: On 6/30/11 8:02 AM, Nicholas Thompson wrote: Thanks, Eric, for taking the question seriously. I will study your answer with care. Ask a simple question, and waddya get? Another day older and deeper in (conceptual) debt! Eric says: All these flow problems that we talk about are not described by equilibrium ensembles; they are ensembles of processes. Of course, everybody says that, but apparently most of the time people don't act as if saying that should then carry meaning for what they think afterward. (Like other mantras, its function appears to be to suppress pre-frontal cortex activity.) What a great insight! I wonder how much of our blather here on this list is in fact crafted or selected for it's ability to suppress pre-frontal cortex activity? Wow! While we *think* we are promoting pre-frontal activity, we may very well be supressing it! I wonder if there is a simple heuristic for recognizing mantras in clear text? Going recursive here, I wonder about the brain-state/chemistry that might be involved in our (my!) propensity for (near) idle speculation about things I know just enough about to be dangerous. There seems to be something very soothing about this kind of speculation... hmmm? As for the rest of your (Eric) response! What a lot to unpack... I mostly get process vs equilibrium ensembles, spaces of histories and and some of the entropy talk, but
