Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

As far as I can see, no one has objected, so I think Jason and Sam
should get down to business.

Ted
- Original Message -
From: "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> Jason,
>
> If you want to get things ready that's okay by me, but if someone weighs
in
> tomorrow, we'll have to wait.
>
> Ted
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
>
>
> > On 7/11/01 12:29 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > The XML PMC has voted to accept Helma XML-RPC as an xml.apache.org
> project.
> > >
> > > Unless somone from xml.apache.org voices a serious objection by the
end
> of
> > > Thursday,
> > > we'll start the wheels turning to create the project.
> >
> > Cool and the Gang :-) I will have everything ready for import by
> > Friday, so I'll coordinate with Sam as it looks like everything
> > is a go.
> >
> > I would like to use Anakia to generate the docs, is this acceptable?
> > I already have the docs converted to Anakia so I'd like to use
> > what I have.
> >
> > > Ted
> > > - Original Message -
> > > From: "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
> > > Subject: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> > >
> > >
> > >> Does anyone else from xml.apache.org have any feedback on this
proposal
> > >> one way or the other?
> > >>
> > >> Ted
> > >> - Original Message -
> > >> From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:09 PM
> > >> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is
> that
> > >>>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as
Hannes
> > >>>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org
> > > than
> > >>>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Does this sound reasonable?
> > >>>
> > >>> +1
> > >>>
> > >>> I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
> > > authorization,
> > >>> etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
> > >>>
> > >>> - Sam Ruby
> > >>>
> > >>>
> >
>>> -
> > >>> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> -
> > >> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > -
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > --
> >
> > jvz.
> >
> > Jason van Zyl
> >
> > http://tambora.zenplex.org
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
> >
> >
> >
> > -
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
>
> -
> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

Jason,

If you want to get things ready that's okay by me, but if someone weighs in
tomorrow, we'll have to wait.

Ted
- Original Message -
From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2001 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> On 7/11/01 12:29 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > The XML PMC has voted to accept Helma XML-RPC as an xml.apache.org
project.
> >
> > Unless somone from xml.apache.org voices a serious objection by the end
of
> > Thursday,
> > we'll start the wheels turning to create the project.
>
> Cool and the Gang :-) I will have everything ready for import by
> Friday, so I'll coordinate with Sam as it looks like everything
> is a go.
>
> I would like to use Anakia to generate the docs, is this acceptable?
> I already have the docs converted to Anakia so I'd like to use
> what I have.
>
> > Ted
> > - Original Message -----
> > From: "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
> > Subject: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> >
> >
> >> Does anyone else from xml.apache.org have any feedback on this proposal
> >> one way or the other?
> >>
> >> Ted
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:09 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> >>
> >>
> >>> Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is
that
> >>>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
> >>>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org
> > than
> >>>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
> >>>>
> >>>> Does this sound reasonable?
> >>>
> >>> +1
> >>>
> >>> I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
> > authorization,
> >>> etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
> >>>
> >>> - Sam Ruby
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
>
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>
>
>
> -
> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/11/01 12:29 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The XML PMC has voted to accept Helma XML-RPC as an xml.apache.org project.
> 
> Unless somone from xml.apache.org voices a serious objection by the end of
> Thursday,
> we'll start the wheels turning to create the project.

Cool and the Gang :-) I will have everything ready for import by
Friday, so I'll coordinate with Sam as it looks like everything
is a go. 

I would like to use Anakia to generate the docs, is this acceptable?
I already have the docs converted to Anakia so I'd like to use
what I have.
 
> Ted
> - Original Message -
> From: "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
> Subject: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 
> 
>> Does anyone else from xml.apache.org have any feedback on this proposal
>> one way or the other?
>> 
>> Ted
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:09 PM
>> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
>> 
>> 
>>> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
>>>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
>>>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org
> than
>>>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>>>> 
>>>> Does this sound reasonable?
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
> authorization,
>>> etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
>>> 
>>> - Sam Ruby
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

The XML PMC has voted to accept Helma XML-RPC as an xml.apache.org project.

Unless somone from xml.apache.org voices a serious objection by the end of
Thursday,
we'll start the wheels turning to create the project.

Ted
- Original Message -
From: "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
Subject: [RFC] Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> Does anyone else from xml.apache.org have any feedback on this proposal
> one way or the other?
>
> Ted
> - Original Message -
> From: "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 6:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
>
>
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> > >
> > > Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
> > > the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
> > > and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org
than
> > > we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
> > >
> > > Does this sound reasonable?
> >
> > +1
> >
> > I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
authorization,
> > etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
> >
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > -
> > In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
>
>
> -
> In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Thu, 5 Jul 2001, Jason van Zyl wrote:

> [  ]Craig McClanahan

Just getting back from vacation, I've read this thread and tend to agree
with the general consensus that it belongs more on the xml.apache.org side
of the house, for several reasons:

* This particular implementation is written in Java, but the spec itself
   has been implemented in many languages.

* Having a Java implementation first is cool and all, but we should be
  able and willing to host non-Java implementations as well -- and Jakarta
  is not the right place for that.  That's what xml.apache.org is about.

* In the pure-Java world, I think an "RPC over XML" solution that
  implements the JAX-RPC API (JSR 101) would make sense as a Jakarta
  project (assuming the issues that Apache has with the Java Community
  Process can be worked out :-).  There, it's not an issue of supporting
  the same spec in multiple languages -- it's an issue of supporting a
  Java-specific API with a robust, high-performance implementation.

Officially, this counts as
  [-0] Craig McClanahan

Craig

PS:  By the way (to Sam and others), I don't consider the use of a
specialized XML parser (or an embedded HTTP server, for that matter) to be
a fatal design flaw.  Performance should have a strong influence on that
sort of choice, and if it runs faster with specialized tools instead of
Xerces and Tomcat for this particular application, more power to 'em.

On the other hand, if they cannot *significantly* outperform general
purpose tools, then it's pretty much wasted effort to spend the developer
time necessary to maintain those components.  Time will tell -- therefore,
hosting this initially as a separate top-level project makes the most
sense to me.  But I'd hope that the XML-RPC developers recognize that this
is an important tradeoff.


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jon Stevens]

on 7/6/01 6:54 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Cool, so can we coordinate next week sometime. Maybe toward the
> end of the week we can populate the repository?

Doesn't this have to be approved by the XML PMC first?

-jon (not knowing what the decision "over there" was...)


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/6/01 1:08 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> One caveat.  Let the XML PMC have it's vote on this.  I'm sending the vote
> request in 2 minutes.

I'm a positive thinker :-)

> Ted
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 
> 
>> On 7/5/01 9:09 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
>>>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
>>>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
>>>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>>>> 
>>>> Does this sound reasonable?
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
> authorization,
>>> etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
>> 
>> Cool, so can we coordinate next week sometime. Maybe toward the
>> end of the week we can populate the repository?
>> 
>>> - Sam Ruby
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> jvz.
>> 
>> Jason van Zyl
>> 
>> http://tambora.zenplex.org
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

One caveat.  Let the XML PMC have it's vote on this.  I'm sending the vote
request in 2 minutes.

Ted
- Original Message -
From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> On 7/5/01 9:09 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Jason van Zyl wrote:
> >>
> >> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
> >> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
> >> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
> >> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
> >>
> >> Does this sound reasonable?
> >
> > +1
> >
> > I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees,
authorization,
> > etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)
>
> Cool, so can we coordinate next week sometime. Maybe toward the
> end of the week we can populate the repository?
>
> > - Sam Ruby
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
>
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/5/01 9:09 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> 
>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>> 
>> Does this sound reasonable?
> 
> +1
> 
> I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees, authorization,
> etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)

Cool, so can we coordinate next week sometime. Maybe toward the
end of the week we can populate the repository?

> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> on 7/5/01 5:52 PM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> Ok, one day I'll change it (also because it generates 70% of the traffic on
>> daedalus!)
> 
> And because CollabNet has to pay for that...

Comes straight out of your paycheck? :) :) :)

Pier (being the usual asshole!)


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Daniel F. Savarese]

>> [  ]Jon Stevens
>
>-0
>
>It seems like xml.apache.org should be the place, but I really don't care
>where it lives that much cause we can always move projects around if we need
>to. I do think that if it goes to xml.apache.org it should be a top level
>project.

I feel about the same.  xml.apache.org seems the logical place for it,
but I understand some of the motivation to place it in jakarta.

[ 0] Daniel Savarese



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>
> Does this sound reasonable?

+1

I'll even volunteer to set up the mailing lists, cvs trees, authorization,
etc.  And, of course, integrate it into Gump.  ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jon Stevens]

on 7/5/01 5:52 PM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ok, one day I'll change it (also because it generates 70% of the traffic on
> daedalus!)

And because CollabNet has to pay for that...

-jon


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Peter Donald at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> And if there are things you don't like (say a site skin with waay
> too many graphics) then you will be in a better position to change them ;)

Ok, one day I'll change it (also because it generates 70% of the traffic on
daedalus!)


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Ted Leung at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
>> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
>> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
>> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>> 
>> Does this sound reasonable?
> 
> I think that this is a reasonable proposal.  Sam? Pier?

I am no longer on the XML PMC, so I can't know how things are running _now_,
but that is the way in which XML.APACHE.ORG was ruled when I was there, and
never heard of any changes...

(The last project was BATIK, that, even being quite close to FOP, was
granted a broad autonomy with a bunch of committers different from the old
committers on ex XML.APACHE projects...)

More than reasonable... (I wouldn't see it integrated with AXIS, as it's not
the same codebase... Maybe one day, as maybe one day FOP and BATIK could
become one - but that's just my dream!)

Pier


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

Peter Donald wrote:
> 
> And if there are things you don't like (say a site skin with waay
> too many graphics) then you will be in a better position to change them ;)
> 

That's the really positive thing about xml-axis.  They dumped
ll those graphics...

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/
You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!

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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Fri,  6 Jul 2001 00:30, Jason van Zyl wrote:
> Would anyone else on the Jakarta PMC care to vote?
>
> I think there are 10 Jakarta PMC members can we get a quick
> vote. So if anyone else has a -1 than that will put an end
> to the proposal, right? We need 8/10 for the 3/4 minimum so
> one more -1 and it's a goner.
>
> So, this is for the inclusion the XML-RPC package in Jakarta
>
> [  ]Peter Donald
> [-1]Pier Fumagalli
> [  ]Ted Husted
> [  ]Ceki Gülcü
> [  ]Geir Magnusson
> [  ]Craig McClanahan
> [-1]Sam Ruby
> [  ]Dan Savarese
> [  ]Jon Stevens
> [+1]Jason van Zyl
>
> I would like to try this avenue first as it's what the author wants.

I don't know enough about similarities and differences but one good 
"side-effect" of going to xml.apache would be to increase crosstalk and 
cooperation between projects. That has to be a good thing, right ? ;)

And if there are things you don't like (say a site skin with waay 
too many graphics) then you will be in a better position to change them ;)

Cheers,

Pete

*-*
| "Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, |
| and proving that there is no need to do so - almost |
| everyone gets busy on the proof."   |
|  - John Kenneth Galbraith   |
*-*

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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

- Original Message -
From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 10:36 AM
Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> On 7/5/01 1:08 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > It is not true that there is no interest in XML-RPC at xml.apache.org.
I
> > would be
> > amenable to / in-favor of XML RPC being an independent project under
> > xml.apache.org.  I would prefer it if we could find a way to make this
fit
> > in with Axis,
> > assuming that the respective committers can get along and make it work.
>
> We would prefer that the project be independent at first. None of the
> initial committers have much experience with xml.apache.org and would
> like to gradually move toward collaborating. As I've said before this
> is a self contained project and it is used that way. I have no doubt
> that the code can be integrated into Axis in some form, but this
> is not our primary motive for bringing the code to apache.
>
> > The whole point of having a separate XML project is for XML related
> > code-bases
> > to go there.  With a name like XML-RPC, it is hard to argue that XML-RPC
> > is not an XML related project.  Please don't try to circumvent the
structure
> > that the ASF
> > has put in place.   As someone pointed out, If we were talking about a C
or
> > C++
> > implementation of XML-RPC, then I don't think we would be arguing about
> > where this
> > particular code base belongs.
>
> Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
> the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
> and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
> we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.
>
> Does this sound reasonable?
>

I think that this is a reasonable proposal.  Sam? Pier?

Ted




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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

I believed that xml.apache.org was the appropriate place to try first,
and if it can find a happy home there, I still think thats appropriate.

However, this is a living community, not just a code base - Hannes and
co-conspirators are coming with it.  Therefore, I think top level in xml
would be nice, but that's only a suggestion - I am not a part of
xml.apache community.

If they can't be acommodated in a way that is satisfactory to all, +1
for here in Jakarta.

geir


-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/
You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!

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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ceki Gülcü]

At this stage my vote is not very relevant but just to say that I followed the 
discussion.

I vote 0 (blank).

Regards, Ceki

At 10:08 05.07.2001 -0700, you wrote:
>on 7/5/01 7:30 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> [  ]Jon Stevens
>
>-0
>
>It seems like xml.apache.org should be the place, but I really don't care
>where it lives that much cause we can always move projects around if we need
>to. I do think that if it goes to xml.apache.org it should be a top level
>project.
>
>-jon
>
>
>-
>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

--
Ceki Gülcü


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/5/01 1:08 PM, "Ted Leung" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello all,
> 
> It is not true that there is no interest in XML-RPC at xml.apache.org.  I
> would be
> amenable to / in-favor of XML RPC being an independent project under
> xml.apache.org.  I would prefer it if we could find a way to make this fit
> in with Axis,
> assuming that the respective committers can get along and make it work.

We would prefer that the project be independent at first. None of the
initial committers have much experience with xml.apache.org and would
like to gradually move toward collaborating. As I've said before this
is a self contained project and it is used that way. I have no doubt
that the code can be integrated into Axis in some form, but this
is not our primary motive for bringing the code to apache.
 
> The whole point of having a separate XML project is for XML related
> code-bases
> to go there.  With a name like XML-RPC, it is hard to argue that XML-RPC
> is not an XML related project.  Please don't try to circumvent the structure
> that the ASF
> has put in place.   As someone pointed out, If we were talking about a C or
> C++
> implementation of XML-RPC, then I don't think we would be arguing about
> where this
> particular code base belongs.

Fair enough, I will no longer argue the point. My main concern is that
the project be granted full autonomy as a project initially as Hannes
and the rest of the committers become accustomed to xml.apache.org than
we can discuss the possible integration with Axis.

Does this sound reasonable?

 
> Ted Leung
> Chair XML PMC
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:18 AM
> Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 
> 
>> On 7/5/01 7:55 AM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hannes Wallnoefer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
>>>> xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.
>>> 
>>> Even though I see your point, I'd still prefer seeing it over in XML
>>> alongside with the other technologies doing the same exact thing...
>>> 
>>> Jakarta has alrady a wide enough spectrum of problems covered (from
> build
>>> systems, to ioc frameworks). From what I can see, XML-RPC is based on
> XML
>>> (or a subset of it), is used to transmit objects and call methods over
> HTTP
>>> (same as SOAP), s, since it's an alternative to SOAP, it should go
>>> alongside with it.
>>> 
>>> -1 for XML-RPC on Jakarta...
>> 
>> So you would be amenable to the XML-RPC package being an independent
>> project under the xml.apache.org banner?
>> 
>>>   Pier
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> jvz.
>> 
>> Jason van Zyl
>> 
>> http://tambora.zenplex.org
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
>> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> 
> 
> 
> -
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jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jon Stevens]

on 7/5/01 7:30 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> [  ]Jon Stevens

-0

It seems like xml.apache.org should be the place, but I really don't care
where it lives that much cause we can always move projects around if we need
to. I do think that if it goes to xml.apache.org it should be a top level
project.

-jon


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ted Leung]

Hello all,

It is not true that there is no interest in XML-RPC at xml.apache.org.  I
would be
amenable to / in-favor of XML RPC being an independent project under
xml.apache.org.  I would prefer it if we could find a way to make this fit
in with Axis,
assuming that the respective committers can get along and make it work.

The whole point of having a separate XML project is for XML related
code-bases
to go there.  With a name like XML-RPC, it is hard to argue that XML-RPC
is not an XML related project.  Please don't try to circumvent the structure
that the ASF
has put in place.   As someone pointed out, If we were talking about a C or
C++
implementation of XML-RPC, then I don't think we would be arguing about
where this
particular code base belongs.

Ted Leung
Chair XML PMC

- Original Message -
From: "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2001 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta


> On 7/5/01 7:55 AM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hannes Wallnoefer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
> >> xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.
> >
> > Even though I see your point, I'd still prefer seeing it over in XML
> > alongside with the other technologies doing the same exact thing...
> >
> > Jakarta has alrady a wide enough spectrum of problems covered (from
build
> > systems, to ioc frameworks). From what I can see, XML-RPC is based on
XML
> > (or a subset of it), is used to transmit objects and call methods over
HTTP
> > (same as SOAP), s, since it's an alternative to SOAP, it should go
> > alongside with it.
> >
> > -1 for XML-RPC on Jakarta...
>
> So you would be amenable to the XML-RPC package being an independent
> project under the xml.apache.org banner?
>
> >   Pier
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> --
>
> jvz.
>
> Jason van Zyl
>
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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>


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/5/01 7:55 AM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hannes Wallnoefer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
>> xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.
> 
> Even though I see your point, I'd still prefer seeing it over in XML
> alongside with the other technologies doing the same exact thing...
> 
> Jakarta has alrady a wide enough spectrum of problems covered (from build
> systems, to ioc frameworks). From what I can see, XML-RPC is based on XML
> (or a subset of it), is used to transmit objects and call methods over HTTP
> (same as SOAP), s, since it's an alternative to SOAP, it should go
> alongside with it.
> 
> -1 for XML-RPC on Jakarta...

Would anyone else on the Jakarta PMC care to vote?

I think there are 10 Jakarta PMC members can we get a quick
vote. So if anyone else has a -1 than that will put an end
to the proposal, right? We need 8/10 for the 3/4 minimum so
one more -1 and it's a goner.

So, this is for the inclusion the XML-RPC package in Jakarta

[  ]Peter Donald
[-1]Pier Fumagalli
[  ]Ted Husted
[  ]Ceki Gülcü
[  ]Geir Magnusson
[  ]Craig McClanahan
[-1]Sam Ruby
[  ]Dan Savarese
[  ]Jon Stevens
[+1]Jason van Zyl

I would like to try this avenue first as it's what the author wants.

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/5/01 7:55 AM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hannes Wallnoefer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> 
>> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
>> xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.
> 
> Even though I see your point, I'd still prefer seeing it over in XML
> alongside with the other technologies doing the same exact thing...
> 
> Jakarta has alrady a wide enough spectrum of problems covered (from build
> systems, to ioc frameworks). From what I can see, XML-RPC is based on XML
> (or a subset of it), is used to transmit objects and call methods over HTTP
> (same as SOAP), s, since it's an alternative to SOAP, it should go
> alongside with it.
> 
> -1 for XML-RPC on Jakarta...

So you would be amenable to the XML-RPC package being an independent
project under the xml.apache.org banner?
 
>   Pier
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Hannes Wallnoefer at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
> xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.

Even though I see your point, I'd still prefer seeing it over in XML
alongside with the other technologies doing the same exact thing...

Jakarta has alrady a wide enough spectrum of problems covered (from build
systems, to ioc frameworks). From what I can see, XML-RPC is based on XML
(or a subset of it), is used to transmit objects and call methods over HTTP
(same as SOAP), s, since it's an alternative to SOAP, it should go
alongside with it.

-1 for XML-RPC on Jakarta...

Pier


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/4/01 10:04 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hannes Wallnoefer wrote:
>> 
>> [snip]
> 
> Short and simple: -1.  Good luck getting 3/4 approval...
> 
> Want to change my vote?

I don't think there's anything to change. You decided what you what
you wanted very shortly after the proposal was made. That much is clear,
even if your answers are not.

I answered your questions as best I could, but you completely skirted
around answering any of my questions. I asked what you would do
with the code if it were brought into xml.apache.org and
I wanted to know what the interest is in xml-rpc, and why no one
has taken the steps to move toward an xml-rpc implementation in
axis?

Are these not valid questions and concerns? You are the one intimately
involved with xml.apache.org, so I assume you could answer these
questions quickly.

> Demonstrate some signs that you are willing to
> work with others,

I have been working with Hannes and the initial committers for the
last month to get to this point. I am interested in the xml-rpc package.
You are being unequivocally evasive. I don't think you're being very
cooperative. I asked what your proposal would be if the code was
to be donated to xml.apache.org and you didn't even bother to
answer. Is the answer supposed to be obvious? It's not obvious to me.
I think it's important that the code comes here, we have
our preferences as to the location but the code is used by
a lot of people and it would be a healthy project at apache.

> or are at least aware of related work.

I am aware of other xml-rpc packages, as I must emphasize that
is what I'm interested in.

> Criticize SOAP or
> the Apache implementation thereof if you like - I can take it.

I have absolutely nothing against SOAP, or your implementation of
it. I haven't looked that much at SOAP because none of the projects
I work on require it's use. To me, SOAP and xml-rpc are mutually
exclusive because that is the nature of my work. If xml-rpc is
to be a subset of axis than the real nature of the arrangement
is that you need xml-rpc but we don't need axis.

> Start with
> introducing yourself on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

I have zero interest in axis at the moment. Why is the onus on me
to participate in something in which I have no interest and no
requirement to be involved with. The xml-rpc package works fine
as a stand-alone piece of work. I am fully willing to work on the
xml-rpc package, but I'm certainly not going to stop you from integrating
the package into axis. I don't see why you see this as not cooperating,
it is simply not the domain I work in.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your proposal would
be the folding of the xml-rpc code into axis and forcing users currently
using xml-rpc by itself to use xml-rpc through axis instead. This is
expressly something we do not desire.

This is what I'm deducing from your emphasis on axis and lack of clear
answers to very direct questions.

What do you feel about the xml-rpc package being an independent project
at xml.apache.org? As a starting point for cooperation between the xml-rpc
package and axis. How is that for meeting half way? Then the the
collaboration would begin as two autonomous parties.

I would first like ask for votes from the Jakarta PMC members to see
if the package can be included within Jakarta as this is the express
desire of the author. I will make another short message with a voting
form.

If this fails than I will make a proposal to xml.apache.org if the
package could be accepted as an independent project (if this is acceptable
to Hannes). If the code is allowed to exist autonomously than I don't
have a real problem with where it lands. But I definitely don't like the
idea of the code being rolled into another package because right off the bat
we would probably be in a minority situation and the code could go in a
direction that we don't want. I don't believe that is right. But again Sam,
correct me if my assertions are in the wrong.

 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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jvz.

Jason van Zyl

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RE: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Tim Vernum]

[ My non-voting, highly irrelevant, self-obsessed opinion follows ]

> To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
> xml.apache.org,

Possibly, but the argument is whether or not it is a more natural fit
for Jakarta.

> XML-RPC is a protocol that has been explicitly frozen since 
> 1998 or so, and
> even at that time it only used a small subset of XML. Sure, 
> it has the XML
> in its name, but all it does is define a handful of elements 
> to wrap some
> common data types - strings, numbers, date objects, structs 
> and so on. 

So it's an XML based protocol, that doesn't use all the XML
features.

That sounds much like Java programs that use JDK 1.1 ?
It doesn't have to be a "new/fresh/exciting" protocol to be
useful, and its usefulness is not decided by which project
it is in.

> XML-RPC is not about XML,

But nor is it "about" Java.
There are python versions of XML-RPC, etc.
What is it about Helma XML-RPC that makes it a project about
java?

> So why Jakarta? One area is HTTP support - XML-RPC works over 
> HTTP,

I don't follow.
Lots of things work over HTTP.
Jakarta != HTTP
httpd.apache.org is all about http, but I don't think that was
your argument.

> Of course, development can take place anywhere. I just don't 
> see how XML-RPC would fit into the Apache XML project. 

That being true, I think the problem is that Sam et al., don't
see how it fits into Jakarta any more closely.

Honest question:
 * What does Helma XML-RPC have to do with Java?

Is it just that it is written in Java?
If so, then what would happen if it was written in C++?

There is no cpp.apache.org, so it would either go into
Apache xml, or not be part of apache at all.

Would Apache be interested in this if it was written
in C++?

I guess Jason probably wouldn't, since he's using it in
a java project, but if Apache would host a C++ based 
XML-RPC project (and I contend that it would), then
the language issue is irrelevant.

If either:
* The project is only interesting to Apache because it
   is java based,
or
* The project has some Java integration that goes beyond
simply being implemented in java,
then it may well be suitable for Jakarta.

But (IMHO) it ultimately comes down to this:
* What's the useful feature of Helma XML-RPC?
  Is it that it's written in Java?
  Or that it implements XML-RPC?


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Hannes Wallnoefer wrote:
>
> [snip]

Short and simple: -1.  Good luck getting 3/4 approval...

Want to change my vote?  Demonstrate some signs that you are willing to
work with others, or are at least aware of related work.  Criticize SOAP or
the Apache implementation thereof if you like - I can take it.  Start with
introducing yourself on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Hannes Wallnoefer]

Hi there,

I'm the author of the Helma XML-RPC library, and I'd like to deliver some
background information as well as my personal view regarding the jakarta/xml
dispute. 

To put it right upfront, I don't think XML-RPC is a natural fit for
xml.apache.org, and I'd prefer to see it at Jakarta. Let me explain.

XML-RPC is a protocol that has been explicitly frozen since 1998 or so, and
even at that time it only used a small subset of XML. Sure, it has the XML
in its name, but all it does is define a handful of elements to wrap some
common data types - strings, numbers, date objects, structs and so on. No
other elements may ever occur in XML-RPC, let alone any of the additional
XML add-ons that have been spec'ed out since 1998. To see what I'm talking
about have a look at the XML-RPC spec at http://www.xmlrpc.com/spec (if you
like compare it to the SOAP spec for contrast). XML-RPC is not about XML, it
just uses the minimum XML necessary to pass method calls and data between
clients/servers.

This means that coupling XML-RPC with a full featured XML environment may
not have a lot of benefits - in fact, in my experience all it does is
increase memory footprint and download size and decrease performance, simply
because XML-RPC doesn't use any but the most primitive parsing facilities.

So why Jakarta? One area is HTTP support - XML-RPC works over HTTP, and the
code contains both an embedded HTTP server as well as a client and a servlet
interface. I'd say most of the feature requests or questions I get revolve
around HTTP or Servlet issues, and I definitely think that Jakarta is the
ideal environment for this. Another hot development area may be to improve
mapping between XML-RPC data types and Java objects. Since XML-RPC data
types are carved in stone, there's practically no XML work going on here,
but it will be very Java-specific.

Of course, development can take place anywhere. I just don't see how XML-RPC
would fit into the Apache XML project. If anybody actually does have a
proposal please let me know.

cheers,
Hannes


> Von: robert burrell donkin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Antworten an: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Datum: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 20:13:07 +0100
> An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Betreff: Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 
> On Wednesday, July 4, 2001, at 05:19 AM, Ian Kallen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
>> My unsolicited opinion: projects focused on the manipulation and
>> purveyance of
>> data as XML could/should  belong in the xml.apache.org project while
>> implementations  of Java technologies associate with Jakarta.
> 
> (BTW this is a general response rather than an opinion about Helma XML-RPC)
> i believe that xml.apache.org has a strong emphasis on standards. that
> means that "projects focused on the manipulation and purveyance of data as
> XML" which are not standards-based will not necessarily find a home there.
> excluding projects from jakarta simply because they are xml-related would
> therefore seem to allow otherwise appropriate projects to 'fall through
> the cracks' between xml.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org.
> 
> for what it's worth...
> what ever happened to the idea that was being floated about
> jakarta-xml common projects (or was it 'xml-jakarta-commons')?
> 
> - robert
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[robert burrell donkin]

On Wednesday, July 4, 2001, at 05:19 AM, Ian Kallen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:

> My unsolicited opinion: projects focused on the manipulation and 
> purveyance of
> data as XML could/should  belong in the xml.apache.org project while
> implementations  of Java technologies associate with Jakarta.

(BTW this is a general response rather than an opinion about Helma XML-RPC)
i believe that xml.apache.org has a strong emphasis on standards. that 
means that "projects focused on the manipulation and purveyance of data as 
XML" which are not standards-based will not necessarily find a home there.
  excluding projects from jakarta simply because they are xml-related would 
therefore seem to allow otherwise appropriate projects to 'fall through 
the cracks' between xml.apache.org and jakarta.apache.org.

for what it's worth...
what ever happened to the idea that was being floated about 
jakarta-xml common projects (or was it 'xml-jakarta-commons')?

- robert

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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Ian Kallen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>]

My unsolicited opinion: projects focused on the manipulation and purveyance of
data as XML could/should  belong in the xml.apache.org project while
implementations  of Java technologies associate with Jakarta.  There's 
nothing Java specific about XML-RPC and SOAP (buh, that's the point).  If I had
my druthers, slide and other projects that have nothing to do with
implementations of Java technologies per se but happen to be implemented using
Java shouldn't be part of Jakarta (nothing against slide but content management
and WebDAV are not Java technologies per se).  Ergo, the Helma XML-RPC
project, if it should be an Apache project at all, belongs with SOAP, Xerces,
Xalan and so forth (irrespective of the fact that they are implementented in
Java); they are implementations of XML technologies and therefore belong in
under the xml.apache.org umbrella; Jason van Zyl's shrill complaint otherwise
not withstanding.  

cheers,
-Ian

--
Ian Kallen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | AIM: iankallen



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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/3/01 8:56 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> 
>> You have totally side stepped the fact that no at xml.apache.org is
>> interested in XML-RPC. What exactly is the interest level in
>> XML-RPC? I honestly don't know a whole lot about SOAP, but I have
>> been using XML-RPC for a long while now and it's simple and works
>> great.
> 
> Hmmm.  I guess it is fair to say that Turbine is not interested in
> integrating with Cocoon.  If you ignore the recent warm welcome that Berin
> has seen, and focus just on the fact that this work has never bubbled to
> the top of any existing turbine committers todo list, then I guess it must
> be true.

I would definitely say that is a fair summation. No one is interested
or someone would be working on it. Berin is now, out of a requirement
and that¹s great if Turbine and Cocoon work together eventually
that's great. 
 
> XML-RPC has not bubbled to the top of my todo list at the moment.

That's because you have no real need for it I would say. It
fits in with the plans for axis but it seems xml-rpc hasn't
bubbled anywhere near the top of anyone's todo list. I might
eventually use axis, but integrating xml-rpc into axis isn't
on the top of my todo list either.

> But I
> will warmly welcome anybody who wishes to work on it.

But that's never happened though, has it? The presence
of an xml-rpc package at apache may cause someone to
pick up that torch but I don't see why the package
being at xml.apache.org would improve those odds.
 
>> If you are suggesting that the code be immediately be absorbed
>> into xml-soap than I definitely don't agree. Is that what you're
>> suggesting?
> 
> Can you honestly say that you have done your homework?

Again you are not answering the question. What homework do I have to
do Sam? I proposed a package that is self contained, self sustaining,
and completely independent of any other project at Apache. It may
certainly be related to other projects, I agree with that. But
my immediate concern is a home for the package, not trying to
integrate it with axis.
 
> All I ask is that if/when you do, you approach the problem with an open
> mind and a can do attitude, not simply look for reasons why it can't work.

I still don't know what you mean exactly by 'can't work' work because
so far it is entirely unclear what you would actually do with the code.

Let's say I'm Hannes and offer you the XML-RPC code, what exactly
is the proposal you would make on [EMAIL PROTECTED] A simple paragraph
stating what you would like to do with the code would help me a lot in
understanding your POV.

I have tried to contact Hannes to see what he thinks, I've asked
him to join the list and join the discussion.

> And I will promise to meet you more than half way.

I would be glad to meet you half way when I know what direction you're
walking in.
 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> You have totally side stepped the fact that no at xml.apache.org is
> interested in XML-RPC. What exactly is the interest level in
> XML-RPC? I honestly don't know a whole lot about SOAP, but I have
> been using XML-RPC for a long while now and it's simple and works
> great.

Hmmm.  I guess it is fair to say that Turbine is not interested in
integrating with Cocoon.  If you ignore the recent warm welcome that Berin
has seen, and focus just on the fact that this work has never bubbled to
the top of any existing turbine committers todo list, then I guess it must
be true.

XML-RPC has not bubble to the top of my todo list at the moment.But I
will warmly welcome anybody who wishes to work on it.

> If you are suggesting that the code be immediately be absorbed
> into xml-soap than I definitely don't agree. Is that what you're
> suggesting?

Can you honestly say that you have done your homework?

All I ask is that if/when you do, you approach the problem with an open
mind and a can do attitude, not simply look for reasons why it can't work.
And I will promise to meet you more than half way.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/3/01 8:34 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> 
>> I think that was a knee jerk reaction to seeing XML in the project name.
>> Fair enough. You've had two people so far.
> 
> Not fair.  I can't speak for others, but I am an active committer on
> xml-soap and xml-apache (two different projects only in the sense that
> Tomcat 3 and 4 are, so it is in all how you count).  And Jon specifically
> did call out the potential relationship with soap.
> 
> My two cents: the first path should always be to work within existing
> projects.  If/when that fails, then pursue alternatives.
> 
> I've not seen anybody on your list on the xml-axis mailing list.  Give it a
> whirl.  Together, we can do more then separately...

You have totally side stepped the fact that no at xml.apache.org is
interested in XML-RPC. What exactly is the interest level in
XML-RPC? I honestly don't know a whole lot about SOAP, but I have
been using XML-RPC for a long while now and it's simple and works
great.

If you are suggesting that the code be immediately be absorbed
into xml-soap than I definitely don't agree. Is that what you're
suggesting?
 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/3/01 8:10 PM, "Pier P. Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Sam Ruby at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>> I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
>> xml.apache.org.
> 
> I agree 100% with Sam...

Again, that's an unqualified response. I responsed to Sam when he
clarified his position. I will gladly respond to yours when you
do the same.
 
>   Pier
> 
> 
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jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
> I think that was a knee jerk reaction to seeing XML in the project name.
> Fair enough. You've had two people so far.

Not fair.  I can't speak for others, but I am an active committer on
xml-soap and xml-apache (two different projects only in the sense that
Tomcat 3 and 4 are, so it is in all how you count).  And Jon specifically
did call out the potential relationship with soap.

My two cents: the first path should always be to work within existing
projects.  If/when that fails, then pursue alternatives.

I've not seen anybody on your list on the xml-axis mailing list.  Give it a
whirl.  Together, we can do more then separately...

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Pier P. Fumagalli]

Sam Ruby at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
> xml.apache.org.

I agree 100% with Sam...

Pier


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/3/01 4:36 PM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Jason van Zyl wrote:
>> 
>>> I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
>>> xml.apache.org.
>> 
>> Reasons?
> 
> The xml-axis project is a restructuring of xml-soap.  This restructuring
> was initiated with the expressed intent of providing a foundation for
> supporting multiple protocols, including, XML-RPC.  To date, however, we
> have been unsuccessful in getting anyone interested enough to work on
> supporting the XML-RPC protocol.

I find that a very unconvincing argument. You suggest having the XML-RPC
package housed at xml.apache.org because no one is interested in it. No one
at xml.apache.org did the leg work to find an XML-RPC implementation whose
author was willing to donate it. If there is such a lack of interest
in XML-RPC I definitely feel that Jakarta is a better place for it.

If there eventual interest than there is no reason why the XML-RPC
package can't be integrated into xml-axis. But at present you say there
is no interest, so I would say xml.apache.org is not the right place
for the XML-RPC package. You yourself would like to see XML-RPC integrated
into xml-axis but as yet no one has done anything about it.
 
> This being said, I don't want to pre-judge the result as to whether or not
> the current Axis code base is a good fit; it might very well be appropriate
> that these two projects belong side by side.  Don't get me wrong, my clear
> preference is for the former, but if the latter is meant to be, then so be
> it.  But side by side, not pitting one PMC against another within Apache
> land.

I think you're jumping the gun here. I think the project should definitely
start on its own. If someone is interested in integrating the XML-RPC code
into xml-axis than they are free to do so. Whether the code will fit with
axis is an irrelevant question at this point in time.
 
> Additionally, the Jakarta project is a bit on the large side, so I am
> concerned about growth - that in itself is not a showstopper, but is a
> concern and if there is at least an equally good fit in xml, then that is a
> better home.  

I fail to see your reasoning. How is managing another package less a burden
to one project and not another? It's another project at Apache and will
require time and resources. The initial set of committers will go where
the code goes. Jakarta has 18 projects, xml.apache.org has 14. So I don't
see that as a convincing argument either. If you are saying that Apache
as a whole should slow down in absorbing more projects, than I would
probably agree with you.

> Also note that the XML PMC has taken a different path, there
> is not a mapping of PMC members to subprojects; this being said, if the
> right home for XML-RPC is in xml.apache, then I will promise to watch over
> it (I am a PMC member there).

I appreciate the sentiment :-)
 
> I also noted that a number of other Jakarta PMC members expressed similar
> concerns, presumably without my prompting.

I think that was a knee jerk reaction to seeing XML in the project name.
Fair enough. You've had two people so far.

My reasons for Jakarta are 1) The impetus for the proposal came from the
initial list of committers who are involved in Jakarta. I think our wishes
should count for something. And we decided to make the proposal here after
some discussion. 2) I don't think xml.apache.org would provide a good fit
because  a) no one started an xml-rpc implementation for xml-axis and b) no
one tried to find anyone with an existing implementation. How could
xml.apache.org be a better or even equal fit.

I would like this not to drag out. The initial list of committers would
prefer this to be a Jakarta project. I would like to vote and go from
there.
 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> P.S.  A quick peek at the code base - no Ant, yet another XML parser
> (non-JAXP, non-Apache).  Not insurmountable, but it would be nice to be
> fixed...

I have the latest code with an Ant build that Josh Lucas cleaned up,
and it uses xerces as the default parser.
 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
>
>> I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
>> xml.apache.org.
>
> Reasons?

The xml-axis project is a restructuring of xml-soap.  This restructuring
was initiated with the expressed intent of providing a foundation for
supporting multiple protocols, including, XML-RPC.  To date, however, we
have been unsuccessful in getting anyone interested enough to work on
supporting the XML-RPC protocol.

This being said, I don't want to pre-judge the result as to whether or not
the current Axis code base is a good fit; it might very well be appropriate
that these two projects belong side by side.  Don't get me wrong, my clear
preference is for the former, but if the latter is meant to be, then so be
it.  But side by side, not pitting one PMC against another within Apache
land.

Additionally, the Jakarta project is a bit on the large side, so I am
concerned about growth - that in itself is not a showstopper, but is a
concern and if there is at least an equally good fit in xml, then that is a
better home.  Also note that the XML PMC has taken a different path, there
is not a mapping of PMC members to subprojects; this being said, if the
right home for XML-RPC is in xml.apache, then I will promise to watch over
it (I am a PMC member there).

I also noted that a number of other Jakarta PMC members expressed similar
concerns, presumably without my prompting.

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  A quick peek at the code base - no Ant, yet another XML parser
(non-JAXP, non-Apache).  Not insurmountable, but it would be nice to be
fixed...


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Terry McBride]

Jason makes a very good point.

I believe we could see XML-RPC become a integral
component to other jakarta projects.

Terry McBride

--- Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 7/3/01 11:27 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> 
> > I strongly believe that any any such nomination
> should be to
> > xml.apache.org.
> 
> Reasons?
> 
> It does use XML, sure, but it is primarily a set of
> servers and
> clients which I think fits in more with Jakarta.
> It's an XML
> technology, but so is the digester in the commons,
> Jetspeed was
> going to move to xml.apache.org but landed in
> jakarta. Ant is a tool
> that uses XML exclusively (right now anyway) and
> it's in Jakarta.
> 
> I'm not fussy where it is nominated, but being an
> xml.apache.org project
> means I cannot volunteer to be the PMC member to
> watch over it. And that is
> certainly one of the reasons I proposed it here. I
> also think it makes
> sense to have XML-RPC land in the project where most
> of the initial
> committers are involved and that¹s Jakarta.
> 
> What's important is trying to find a home for the
> XML-RPC package.
> So if we decide that Jakarta isn't the place for it,
> though I
> believe it is, than should I post the same proposal
> to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]?
> 
> > 
> > - Sam Ruby
> > 
> > 
> > Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 07/03/2001
> 10:19:36 AM
> > 
> > Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > To:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > cc:
> > Subject:  Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hello,
> > 
> > I would like to propose the movement of the Helma
> XML-RCP package
> > (http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma 
> XML-RPC package
> > is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
> > Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the
> Jakarta project.
> > 
> > There is an active community based around the
> package but organizing the
> > effort is something that Hannes would like some
> help with.
> > 
> > The Helma XML-RPC package is used extensively in
> Turbine,
> > will be used extensively by CollabNet, and is used
> in the Helma
> > project itself so interest will not drop off any
> time in the
> > near future.
> > 
> > There is full documentation for the XML-RPC
> package, and we are
> > working on a test bed so the code is in good shape
> and healthy.
> > I am also willing to be the PMC member that
> oversees the project.
> > 
> > We have an initial committers list as follows:
> > 
> > Hannes Wallnoefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > John Thorhauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Leonard Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Josh Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 
> > There are also people on the XML-RPC dev list that
> are not
> > listed here but who are active. So it is likely
> that
> > this list will double in size very shortly.
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> > --
> > 
> > jvz.
> > 
> > Jason van Zyl
> > 
> > http://tambora.zenplex.org
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
-
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
-
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> -- 
> 
> jvz.
> 
> Jason van Zyl
> 
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
> 
> 
> 
>
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jason van Zyl]

On 7/3/01 11:27 AM, "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
> xml.apache.org.

Reasons?

It does use XML, sure, but it is primarily a set of servers and
clients which I think fits in more with Jakarta. It's an XML
technology, but so is the digester in the commons, Jetspeed was
going to move to xml.apache.org but landed in jakarta. Ant is a tool
that uses XML exclusively (right now anyway) and it's in Jakarta.

I'm not fussy where it is nominated, but being an xml.apache.org project
means I cannot volunteer to be the PMC member to watch over it. And that is
certainly one of the reasons I proposed it here. I also think it makes
sense to have XML-RPC land in the project where most of the initial
committers are involved and that¹s Jakarta.

What's important is trying to find a home for the XML-RPC package.
So if we decide that Jakarta isn't the place for it, though I
believe it is, than should I post the same proposal to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]?

> 
> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 07/03/2001 10:19:36 AM
> 
> Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> To:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> cc:
> Subject:  Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta
> 
> 
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
> (http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
> is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
> Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.
> 
> There is an active community based around the package but organizing the
> effort is something that Hannes would like some help with.
> 
> The Helma XML-RPC package is used extensively in Turbine,
> will be used extensively by CollabNet, and is used in the Helma
> project itself so interest will not drop off any time in the
> near future.
> 
> There is full documentation for the XML-RPC package, and we are
> working on a test bed so the code is in good shape and healthy.
> I am also willing to be the PMC member that oversees the project.
> 
> We have an initial committers list as follows:
> 
> Hannes Wallnoefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John Thorhauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Leonard Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Josh Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> There are also people on the XML-RPC dev list that are not
> listed here but who are active. So it is likely that
> this list will double in size very shortly.
> 
> Thoughts?
> --
> 
> jvz.
> 
> Jason van Zyl
> 
> http://tambora.zenplex.org
> http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
> http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
> http://jakarta.apache.org/commons
> 
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
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jvz.

Jason van Zyl

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http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

Jason van Zyl wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
> (http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
> is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
> Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.
> 
> There is an active community based around the package but organizing the
> effort is something that Hannes would like some help with.
> 
> The Helma XML-RPC package is used extensively in Turbine,
> will be used extensively by CollabNet, and is used in the Helma
> project itself so interest will not drop off any time in the
> near future.
> 
> There is full documentation for the XML-RPC package, and we are
> working on a test bed so the code is in good shape and healthy.
> I am also willing to be the PMC member that oversees the project.
> 
> We have an initial committers list as follows:
> 
> Hannes Wallnoefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> John Thorhauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Leonard Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Josh Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> There are also people on the XML-RPC dev list that are not
> listed here but who are active. So it is likely that
> this list will double in size very shortly.
> 
> Thoughts?

Does that belong here in Jakarta or in XML land?  Either way, +1 from
me, btw.

geir

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr.   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Developing for the web?  See http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/
You have a genius for suggesting things I've come a cropper with!

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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Jon Stevens]

on 7/3/01 7:19 AM, "Jason van Zyl" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
> (http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
> is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
> Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.

Since SOAP is already over on xml.apache.org, shouldn't this go there as
well?

-jon


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RE: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[GOMEZ Henri]

>I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
>(http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
>is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
>Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.
>
>There is an active community based around the package but 
>organizing the
>effort is something that Hannes would like some help with.
>
>The Helma XML-RPC package is used extensively in Turbine,
>will be used extensively by CollabNet, and is used in the Helma
>project itself so interest will not drop off any time in the
>near future.
>
>There is full documentation for the XML-RPC package, and we are
>working on a test bed so the code is in good shape and healthy.
>I am also willing to be the PMC member that oversees the project.

I'm not in PMC but that's an interesting work which may be 
for usefull in jakarta-tomcat (and its connectors)...


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Re: Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta

[Sam Ruby]

I strongly believe that any any such nomination should be to
xml.apache.org.

- Sam Ruby


Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 07/03/2001 10:19:36 AM

Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To:   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:
Subject:  Helma XML-RPC @ Jakarta



Hello,

I would like to propose the movement of the Helma XML-RCP package
(http://xmlrpc.helma.org/) to Jakarta. The Helma  XML-RPC package
is the most popular OSS XML-RPC package and Hannes
Wallnoefer would like to donate the code to the Jakarta project.

There is an active community based around the package but organizing the
effort is something that Hannes would like some help with.

The Helma XML-RPC package is used extensively in Turbine,
will be used extensively by CollabNet, and is used in the Helma
project itself so interest will not drop off any time in the
near future.

There is full documentation for the XML-RPC package, and we are
working on a test bed so the code is in good shape and healthy.
I am also willing to be the PMC member that oversees the project.

We have an initial committers list as follows:

Hannes Wallnoefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Jason van Zyl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
John Thorhauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Daniel Rall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Leonard Richardson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Josh Lucas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

There are also people on the XML-RPC dev list that are not
listed here but who are active. So it is likely that
this list will double in size very shortly.

Thoughts?
--

jvz.

Jason van Zyl

http://tambora.zenplex.org
http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity
http://jakarta.apache.org/alexandria
http://jakarta.apache.org/commons



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