Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
I will definitely be there! It will be awesome to meet anyone who can come. I'm the organiser for the London Linux Meetup here, so if anyone wants to come out for drinks or something after the conference, I can help with that as well. :) On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 2:10 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote: > It's your lucky day: next LGM is in London. > > Alex > 30 апр. 2015 г. 16:07 пользователь "C R" написал: > > I'd give just about anything to be able to afford the trip to Toronto at >> the moment. I may be able to do so next year. It's a long way for me, >> since >> I'm London-based. I'd be happy to help with GIMP brand identity if that is >> helpful. I do it all the time for work. >> >> Best, >> -C >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Michael Schumacher >> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > On 04/30/2015 12:07 AM, C R wrote: >> > >> > > Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there >> > > somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to >> the >> > > project? >> > >> > We have a proposal from someone who wants to create shirts - and other >> > stuff. >> > >> > What we've been slow about is determining how the GIMP mark (it has been >> > pointed out to us that we effectively have one, even if none was ever >> > registered) may be used, as this is one of the few solid offers for that >> > we ever had. >> > >> > Some of the main GIMP contributors are currently gathered at Libre >> > Graphics Meeting 2015 in Troronto, Canada >> > (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2015/ please drop by f you are in the >> > area) and we are going to discuss this here. >> > >> > -- >> > Regards, >> > Michael >> > GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD >> > ___ >> > gimp-developer-list mailing list >> > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org >> > List membership: >> > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list >> > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list >> > >> ___ >> gimp-developer-list mailing list >> List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org >> List membership: >> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list >> List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list >> > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Yes, I've heard that as well. I can see your point about wearing a GIMP shirt in that environment, but to date, I've never heard of any disabled people taking offence to the acronym GIMP. Also, merely appending 2.8 and showing the Wilbur logo on the shirt would probably be enough to disambiguate. On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:29 PM, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: > On Wed, 2015-04-29 at 23:13 +0100, C R wrote: > > > To put it into perspective, do a Google Image search for "gimp", and > see the ratio of GIMP project images to fetishy Pulp Fiction swag. > > > The more common meaning of the word in English-speaking countries is a > derogatory term for someone injured or disabled; for example, > http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gimp > > It is not specific to the USA (I'm not from the USA and do not live > there). > > I write this sitting at a conference wearing a GIMP tee-shirt. But I > don't wear that shirt at work. Part of my job involves accessibility. > > Best, > > Liam > > > > > > > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
It's your lucky day: next LGM is in London. Alex 30 апр. 2015 г. 16:07 пользователь "C R" написал: > I'd give just about anything to be able to afford the trip to Toronto at > the moment. I may be able to do so next year. It's a long way for me, since > I'm London-based. I'd be happy to help with GIMP brand identity if that is > helpful. I do it all the time for work. > > Best, > -C > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Michael Schumacher > wrote: > > > > > > > On 04/30/2015 12:07 AM, C R wrote: > > > > > Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there > > > somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to the > > > project? > > > > We have a proposal from someone who wants to create shirts - and other > > stuff. > > > > What we've been slow about is determining how the GIMP mark (it has been > > pointed out to us that we effectively have one, even if none was ever > > registered) may be used, as this is one of the few solid offers for that > > we ever had. > > > > Some of the main GIMP contributors are currently gathered at Libre > > Graphics Meeting 2015 in Troronto, Canada > > (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2015/ please drop by f you are in the > > area) and we are going to discuss this here. > > > > -- > > Regards, > > Michael > > GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD > > ___ > > gimp-developer-list mailing list > > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > > List membership: > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > > > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
I'd give just about anything to be able to afford the trip to Toronto at the moment. I may be able to do so next year. It's a long way for me, since I'm London-based. I'd be happy to help with GIMP brand identity if that is helpful. I do it all the time for work. Best, -C On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Michael Schumacher wrote: > > > On 04/30/2015 12:07 AM, C R wrote: > > > Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there > > somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to the > > project? > > We have a proposal from someone who wants to create shirts - and other > stuff. > > What we've been slow about is determining how the GIMP mark (it has been > pointed out to us that we effectively have one, even if none was ever > registered) may be used, as this is one of the few solid offers for that > we ever had. > > Some of the main GIMP contributors are currently gathered at Libre > Graphics Meeting 2015 in Troronto, Canada > (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2015/ please drop by f you are in the > area) and we are going to discuss this here. > > -- > Regards, > Michael > GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, 2015-04-29 at 23:13 +0100, C R wrote: > To put it into perspective, do a Google Image search for "gimp", and see the ratio of GIMP project images to fetishy Pulp Fiction swag. The more common meaning of the word in English-speaking countries is a derogatory term for someone injured or disabled; for example, http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gimp It is not specific to the USA (I'm not from the USA and do not live there). I write this sitting at a conference wearing a GIMP tee-shirt. But I don't wear that shirt at work. Part of my job involves accessibility. Best, Liam ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/30/2015 12:07 AM, C R wrote: > Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there > somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to the > project? We have a proposal from someone who wants to create shirts - and other stuff. What we've been slow about is determining how the GIMP mark (it has been pointed out to us that we effectively have one, even if none was ever registered) may be used, as this is one of the few solid offers for that we ever had. Some of the main GIMP contributors are currently gathered at Libre Graphics Meeting 2015 in Troronto, Canada (http://libregraphicsmeeting.org/2015/ please drop by f you are in the area) and we are going to discuss this here. -- Regards, Michael GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
To put it into perspective, do a Google Image search for "gimp", and see the ratio of GIMP project images to fetishy Pulp Fiction swag. The internet has voted on this one already, and it's an overwhelming majority in favour of GIMP being a FOSS image manipulation program. On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:07 PM, C R wrote: > Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there > somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to the > project? > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:03 PM, C R wrote: > >> I'm an "American" (US citizen even), and the name GIMP is just fine. For >> the record, I have no issues wearing a GIMP teeshirt. >> Be thankful that the name was changed in 1995 from "The GIMP" to just >> "GIMP", following the realisation that the movie "Pulp Fiction" would >> forever taint the name in the minds of those who care more about what a >> program is called than what it does. Given the sheer quantity of GIMP >> tutorials on YouTube, it's obviously wildly popular in the English-speaking >> (US and non-US) world. If rich kids's parents in private schools turn >> their nose up at GIMP just because the acronym spells something that isn't >> marketed to them directly, then they will have no issues buying/subscribing >> to Photoshop, which is a usable substitute for GIMP. Not ideal, I'll grant >> you, but well, beggars and choosers and such. ;) >> >> One last solution (since the name will not change) might be to append the >> version number after GIMP, so they could call it "GIMP 2.8", which would >> disambiguate it from the fetishy Quentin Tarantino character (as if that >> mistake could actually be made). >> >> My two cents, and I am a career graphic designer and long, long time >> Photoshop user (since Photoshop was ver 2.5, up through CS3). These days I >> use GIMP for all my Photoshop heavy-lifting. I always recommend GIMP to >> companies as a replacement for Adobe products for their photo-editing and >> graphic design needs. Not one has even mentioned the name being an issue. >> Why would they? GIMP goes right along with Google, Yahoo, and a myriad of >> other silly named things that people also don't care about. The most common >> questions I get are "Are you sure this is free?", and "No, really? This is >> free? I can use this for professional purposes?". >> >> Sure, there will always be some people who don't like the name. Maybe a >> page directing them to some of the finer points made in these >> conversations, and suggestions for calling it something "else" like >> G.I.M.P. or GnuIMP, or GIMP 2.8. or pronouncing it "JIMP" as none of these >> require changing the name of the program. >> >> -C >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Nathan Summers >> wrote: >> >>> Grr, when did GMail change the default from reply-to-list to >>> reply-to-author? >>> >>> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine >>> wrote: >>> > 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: >>> >> >>> >> Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as >>> I'm >>> >> sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't >>> >> succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. >>> > >>> > We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. >>> > >>> > GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the >>> world. >>> > Not even the largest one out there. >>> > >>> >>> So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic >>> professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see >>> that as a very big niche. >>> >>> > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a >>> mailing >>> > list for discussing development of GIMP. >>> >>> There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program >>> actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if >>> it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several >>> excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional >>> contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux >>> kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. >>> >>> You can say that you don't care about what GIMP means in English out >>> of some egalitarian principal that all languages should be treated >>> equally, but as a practical matter that means that you're putting a >>> huge barrier to developing in place for the largest part of the >>> software industry GDP. That has consequences. For example, I >>> wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" >>> if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. >>> I highly doubt I'm the only one. Are you sure it's a good idea to >>> shut out contributions from all but the most naive and the most >>> calloused of the English-speaking world? >>> >>> I personally consider the "we can get people to overlook the >>> connotations of the name" idea as a failed hypothesis at this point. >>> I'm not sure how a
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Come to think of it, I'd like to see more GIMP teeshirts. Is there somewhere where we can submit designs for them, where profits go to the project? On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 11:03 PM, C R wrote: > I'm an "American" (US citizen even), and the name GIMP is just fine. For > the record, I have no issues wearing a GIMP teeshirt. > Be thankful that the name was changed in 1995 from "The GIMP" to just > "GIMP", following the realisation that the movie "Pulp Fiction" would > forever taint the name in the minds of those who care more about what a > program is called than what it does. Given the sheer quantity of GIMP > tutorials on YouTube, it's obviously wildly popular in the English-speaking > (US and non-US) world. If rich kids's parents in private schools turn > their nose up at GIMP just because the acronym spells something that isn't > marketed to them directly, then they will have no issues buying/subscribing > to Photoshop, which is a usable substitute for GIMP. Not ideal, I'll grant > you, but well, beggars and choosers and such. ;) > > One last solution (since the name will not change) might be to append the > version number after GIMP, so they could call it "GIMP 2.8", which would > disambiguate it from the fetishy Quentin Tarantino character (as if that > mistake could actually be made). > > My two cents, and I am a career graphic designer and long, long time > Photoshop user (since Photoshop was ver 2.5, up through CS3). These days I > use GIMP for all my Photoshop heavy-lifting. I always recommend GIMP to > companies as a replacement for Adobe products for their photo-editing and > graphic design needs. Not one has even mentioned the name being an issue. > Why would they? GIMP goes right along with Google, Yahoo, and a myriad of > other silly named things that people also don't care about. The most common > questions I get are "Are you sure this is free?", and "No, really? This is > free? I can use this for professional purposes?". > > Sure, there will always be some people who don't like the name. Maybe a > page directing them to some of the finer points made in these > conversations, and suggestions for calling it something "else" like > G.I.M.P. or GnuIMP, or GIMP 2.8. or pronouncing it "JIMP" as none of these > require changing the name of the program. > > -C > > > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Nathan Summers > wrote: > >> Grr, when did GMail change the default from reply-to-list to >> reply-to-author? >> >> On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine >> wrote: >> > 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: >> >> >> >> Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as >> I'm >> >> sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't >> >> succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. >> > >> > We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. >> > >> > GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the >> world. >> > Not even the largest one out there. >> > >> >> So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic >> professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see >> that as a very big niche. >> >> > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a >> mailing >> > list for discussing development of GIMP. >> >> There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program >> actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if >> it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several >> excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional >> contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux >> kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. >> >> You can say that you don't care about what GIMP means in English out >> of some egalitarian principal that all languages should be treated >> equally, but as a practical matter that means that you're putting a >> huge barrier to developing in place for the largest part of the >> software industry GDP. That has consequences. For example, I >> wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" >> if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. >> I highly doubt I'm the only one. Are you sure it's a good idea to >> shut out contributions from all but the most naive and the most >> calloused of the English-speaking world? >> >> I personally consider the "we can get people to overlook the >> connotations of the name" idea as a failed hypothesis at this point. >> I'm not sure how aware the non-native-English speakers are of how far >> the name is outside of the Overton Window, but I can assure you it's >> not even close. It's not worth the effort to try to make it socially >> acceptable. You can choose to ignore that fact, but you can't deny >> that it has a very large influence on the pace of development. >> >> Rockwalrus >> ___ >> gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
I'm an "American" (US citizen even), and the name GIMP is just fine. For the record, I have no issues wearing a GIMP teeshirt. Be thankful that the name was changed in 1995 from "The GIMP" to just "GIMP", following the realisation that the movie "Pulp Fiction" would forever taint the name in the minds of those who care more about what a program is called than what it does. Given the sheer quantity of GIMP tutorials on YouTube, it's obviously wildly popular in the English-speaking (US and non-US) world. If rich kids's parents in private schools turn their nose up at GIMP just because the acronym spells something that isn't marketed to them directly, then they will have no issues buying/subscribing to Photoshop, which is a usable substitute for GIMP. Not ideal, I'll grant you, but well, beggars and choosers and such. ;) One last solution (since the name will not change) might be to append the version number after GIMP, so they could call it "GIMP 2.8", which would disambiguate it from the fetishy Quentin Tarantino character (as if that mistake could actually be made). My two cents, and I am a career graphic designer and long, long time Photoshop user (since Photoshop was ver 2.5, up through CS3). These days I use GIMP for all my Photoshop heavy-lifting. I always recommend GIMP to companies as a replacement for Adobe products for their photo-editing and graphic design needs. Not one has even mentioned the name being an issue. Why would they? GIMP goes right along with Google, Yahoo, and a myriad of other silly named things that people also don't care about. The most common questions I get are "Are you sure this is free?", and "No, really? This is free? I can use this for professional purposes?". Sure, there will always be some people who don't like the name. Maybe a page directing them to some of the finer points made in these conversations, and suggestions for calling it something "else" like G.I.M.P. or GnuIMP, or GIMP 2.8. or pronouncing it "JIMP" as none of these require changing the name of the program. -C On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 7:47 PM, Nathan Summers wrote: > Grr, when did GMail change the default from reply-to-list to > reply-to-author? > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine > wrote: > > 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: > >> > >> Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as > I'm > >> sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't > >> succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. > > > > We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. > > > > GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the > world. > > Not even the largest one out there. > > > > So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic > professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see > that as a very big niche. > > > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a > mailing > > list for discussing development of GIMP. > > There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program > actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if > it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several > excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional > contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux > kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. > > You can say that you don't care about what GIMP means in English out > of some egalitarian principal that all languages should be treated > equally, but as a practical matter that means that you're putting a > huge barrier to developing in place for the largest part of the > software industry GDP. That has consequences. For example, I > wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" > if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. > I highly doubt I'm the only one. Are you sure it's a good idea to > shut out contributions from all but the most naive and the most > calloused of the English-speaking world? > > I personally consider the "we can get people to overlook the > connotations of the name" idea as a failed hypothesis at this point. > I'm not sure how aware the non-native-English speakers are of how far > the name is outside of the Overton Window, but I can assure you it's > not even close. It's not worth the effort to try to make it socially > acceptable. You can choose to ignore that fact, but you can't deny > that it has a very large influence on the pace of development. > > Rockwalrus > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
El mié, 29-04-2015 a las 14:47 -0400, Nathan Summers escribió: > On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine > wrote: > > > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a mailing > > list for discussing development of GIMP. > > There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program > actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if > it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several > excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional > contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux > kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. Earlier I proposed to solve this issue by adding the "en_US-prudish" locale as a joke, but now I'm not sure it's even a joke. As every message in this thread (and older threads about the same subject) clearly show, this is an issue that only affects some americans. Nobody else seems to be having any troubles with the name. Even if everyone in the USA have issues with the name (which doesn't seem to be the case either), it's still a regional issue. So IT IS a little bit nasty to treat anyone defending the name as idiots who intentionally chose a name that harms the project. Nobody else cares about the name outside the US, and coincidentally nobody seems to be too concerned about GIMP as a "product" competing in an "industry" as americans are. Most of us just want to see GIMP becoming a capable tool suitable for our everyday tasks. I don't think the name will prevent that and I don't think it will ever prevent coders interested in making it a better tool from joining the project. That being said, it is a shame if a few american schools where GIMP could be used stop using it because of the name, but it seems that it could be solved by creating a new locale where GIMP is renamed and point people uncomfortable with the name to change it. GIM could work. But again it's a regional issue, and renaming the entire project because a few people don't like it would be overkill (and yes, in the world context a few americans whining about the name IS a few people). The case of the "Mitsubishi Pajero" I referred to earlier was solved by renaming the product only for a specific region. The product kept the original name for everywhere else. No big deal apparently. Gez. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Apologies for the top post. My phone won't permit anything else. With regard to the Firefox comparison, if the name was the only difference you'd have a valid argument. But unless you can line up the potential contributors who were put off by the name you're going to have to take into account that gimp's target audience is tiny compared to that of Firefox (High-end 'pro' photographers versus everyone who wants to view web pages... that is to say, everyone.). Since Foss development is done by users of the software (I'm guessing that the number of volunteer Foss developers who have no interest in using the program that they are working on can be counted on the fingers of one hand) this is the primary limiting factor on the number of developers. Jon (who frankly doesn't care what it's called and suspects that very few people actually do) Nathan Summers a écrit : >Grr, when did GMail change the default from reply-to-list to reply-to-author? > >On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine > wrote: >> 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: >>> >>> Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm >>> sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't >>> succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. >> >> We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. >> >> GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the world. >> Not even the largest one out there. >> > >So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic >professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see >that as a very big niche. > >> Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a mailing >> list for discussing development of GIMP. > >There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program >actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if >it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several >excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional >contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux >kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. > >You can say that you don't care about what GIMP means in English out >of some egalitarian principal that all languages should be treated >equally, but as a practical matter that means that you're putting a >huge barrier to developing in place for the largest part of the >software industry GDP. That has consequences. For example, I >wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" >if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. >I highly doubt I'm the only one. Are you sure it's a good idea to >shut out contributions from all but the most naive and the most >calloused of the English-speaking world? > >I personally consider the "we can get people to overlook the >connotations of the name" idea as a failed hypothesis at this point. >I'm not sure how aware the non-native-English speakers are of how far >the name is outside of the Overton Window, but I can assure you it's >not even close. It's not worth the effort to try to make it socially >acceptable. You can choose to ignore that fact, but you can't deny >that it has a very large influence on the pace of development. > >Rockwalrus >___ >gimp-developer-list mailing list >List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org >List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list >List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 3:04 PM, Alan Pater wrote: > On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Nathan Summers wrote: >> I wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" >> if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. > > gimp > noun > 1. twisted silk, worsted, or cotton with cord or wire running through > it, used chiefly as upholstery trimming. (in lacemaking) coarser > thread that forms the outline of the design in some techniques. > 2. fishing line made of silk bound with wire. If you think that either of these meanings are what Spencer and Peter had in mind when they named the program, you're even more naive than I. :) Rockwalrus ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/29/2015 02:47 PM, Nathan Summers wrote: >We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. > >GIMP_is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the world. >Not even the largest one out there. > So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see that as a very big niche. The GIMP Vision briefing (http://gui.gimp.org/index.php/Vision_briefing) says GIMP is for "high-end photo manipulation . . . for intense use . . . intense in the number of hours users put in to really master the tools; this is exactly the same as the centuries old process of how people, through apprenticeship, master a certain craft" If GIMP isn't competing with PhotoShop for high end users, what software is currently used by the core users that GIMP is targeting? Are all of them already using GIMP? Digital artists have Krita which competes with and in many ways is much better than PhotoShop, as former PhotoShop users will attest. To have a viable free/libre alternative to PhotoShop with its proprietary file format and cloud-based access, photographers *need* high bit depth GIMP to compete with and be better than PhotoShop. Best, Elle ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 at 1:47 PM, Nathan Summers wrote: > I wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" > if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. gimp noun 1. twisted silk, worsted, or cotton with cord or wire running through it, used chiefly as upholstery trimming. (in lacemaking) coarser thread that forms the outline of the design in some techniques. 2. fishing line made of silk bound with wire. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Grr, when did GMail change the default from reply-to-list to reply-to-author? On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: > 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: >> >> Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm >> sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't >> succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. > > We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. > > GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the world. > Not even the largest one out there. > So our target audience is non-English speaking photographic professionals that don't already like Photoshop? I just don't see that as a very big niche. > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a mailing > list for discussing development of GIMP. There's nothing nasty about what he said. The name of the program actually is a serious impediment to the development of GIMP, and if it's not to be discussed here, then where? Sam makes several excellent points about why GIMP doesn't get the kind of professional contributions that other projects of similar stature such as the Linux kernel or Firefox, and I think there's a lot of truth to what he says. You can say that you don't care about what GIMP means in English out of some egalitarian principal that all languages should be treated equally, but as a practical matter that means that you're putting a huge barrier to developing in place for the largest part of the software industry GDP. That has consequences. For example, I wouldn't have wanted my name associated with something called "GIMP" if I had known what the word meant when I started contributing to it. I highly doubt I'm the only one. Are you sure it's a good idea to shut out contributions from all but the most naive and the most calloused of the English-speaking world? I personally consider the "we can get people to overlook the connotations of the name" idea as a failed hypothesis at this point. I'm not sure how aware the non-native-English speakers are of how far the name is outside of the Overton Window, but I can assure you it's not even close. It's not worth the effort to try to make it socially acceptable. You can choose to ignore that fact, but you can't deny that it has a very large influence on the pace of development. Rockwalrus ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
We should call it GNUIMP (pronounced New-Imp). "GIMP" is just crushing recursive acronyms together ;) Seriously though, the fact that it's not commercial software is likely to be more of an issue than the name. "Google" is about the worst name I can think of for anything adults would use, yet it's used everywhere, by nearly everyone so the name itself is not going to inhibit widespread adoption. GIMP is one of the most popular Open Source software applications available to date. People who say it's not popular or will never be (for any reason) simply aren't paying attention. On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine < alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote: > 28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: > > > > Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm > > sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't > > succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. > > We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. > > > And NO this product could never be implemented in > > schools period. > > Do you think you are likely to be listened to seriously, if you patronize > people? > > GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the world. > Not even the largest one out there. > > Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a mailing > list for discussing development of GIMP. > > Alex > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list > ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
28 апр. 2015 г. 8:22 пользователь "Sam Bagot" написал: > > Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm > sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't > succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. We do not make GIMP to compete against Photoshop. > And NO this product could never be implemented in > schools period. Do you think you are likely to be listened to seriously, if you patronize people? GIMP _is_ used at schools. Also, USA is not the only country in the world. Not even the largest one out there. Furthermore, I suggest you exercise nastyness elsewhere. This is a mailing list for discussing development of GIMP. Alex ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
The name is a blocker in some US schools with teachers or student parents that over-sensitive (and somewhat dirty-minded, since "gimp" has other meanings in English). By the way, one of the most popular Web server software is called Apache. In French, it is also slang for a street robber and any person of ill repute. Doesn't make it any less popular with corporate IT. On 28/04/15 07:03, Sam Bagot wrote: Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. So you [...] I could certainly find people in the professional world to talk about it if a name change was in consideration. What about GIM and pronounce it as gem? Why not just drop the P and it would be fine. It would be explosive and people could use it. It would start to have young adopters and brand loyalty. Don't you want to have all your hard work go into a successful product? Best, Sam ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Renames have worked in the past as I see it and for the most part, as I'm sure you've heard people consider before, a product named gimp can't succeed against a product named professionally like PhotoShop. So you would only be loosing bad publicity anyway as the product is muted and can't succeed. No one knows what gimp is because it has zero market penetration after years of existence. Did you ever think that you having a lot more exposure in schools for kids and having it taught in college courses would lend to more people adding to the code and more money to develop the product. And NO this product could never be implemented in schools period. Don't kid yourselves, the name IS a blocker and name is not an acceptable trademarks for public success. The name is a joke and definitely the reason why it's so far behind Photoshop in the professional world. Brand loyalty for this class of software doesn't start in the professional world. It starts in schools and college courses. Photoshop is as powerful as it is because they teach it in colleges. Young people come out of school with a working knowledge of how to make money with the Photoshop product and they run with it for the rest of their lives. It's basically impossible to get someone to switch to linux especially gimp once they have been trained for four years through college on a solid product like photoshop with proper product direction and a focused core competency. How many businesses would have adopted Quick Books if it was released with the title Sweaty Balls? Same product, same publisher, but it would have died on arrival. And no one in the real world cares about letter casing. Gimp is GIMP and it literally is defined as "inferior" and associated with sexual deviance. Professionals pronounce acronyms as words and it's pronounced gimp. Your arguing with the dictionary if you believe any differently. As far as using the image software to fix the world's misconception of what the word gimp means, in a competitive market of products, each team must concentrate on it's core competency. Changing the world's view of the word gimp doesn't align with the goal of making quality image editing software. They are totally separate concerns and I hope that's a joke that you would be so concerned with the etymology of the word. Why not name it Ass and then tell people that your effort as a software engineer and you life work were really just to get people to understand that an ass originally refereed to donkeys? I just doesn't make since. Why not name your son Rim Job and just tell him not to listen to other kids at school because it's just a way of polishing the rims on your car. He would not appreciate it because that's not how the mind works. No one cares about the outdated origins of any word. They care about connotation and not denotation. How successful would firefox be if it was titled Faggot? That's a term for a tree twig by the way. Download the Faggot Web Browser here!!! Battling about the word faggot or the socio-political-cultural concerns of gay people would kill the software effort to make a solid web browser. That battle over teh word faggot has nothing to do with browsing the web at all, and that's an example of not sticking to the core competency of a product. The people at firefox, rightfully, concentrate on making a solid product that succeeds in the market. Firefox successfully competes with both chorme and safari and kicks the shit out of IE. Solid work that the entire open source community is in awe of. They have their core competency aligned with their product development, and you guys should too. Compare their funding to yours. Compare their product and progress to that of the gimp. Firefox is a household name. Ask people what firefox is on the street for an experiment. They all will know exactly what your talking about and THAT's branding. Walk down that same street and ask people if they ever work with the gimp. Women will slap you, most people would think your being creepy, and you could be arrested for asking that to children. I can't think of worse branding. FireFox kills it and is a global contender for the most popular and used softwares on the planet. Gimp is all but unheard of by the same people who have warmly become brand loyal to other open source projects like firefox. Please call Firefoxes Branding department. They would help you. Seriously. I can't believe that I'm hearing so much about how you guys feel the world should change to accept your marketing and branding. No product in existence has ever succeeded with offensive, immature branding and marketing, and then openly came out demanding that the entire world change so that their product can have a chance to succeed. Do you guys need a product guy? The direction is broken and the philosophy of your marketing is the equivalent of potty humor. I still don't believe you guys are serious with your comments about how you on a die
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/26/2015 05:06 PM, Elle Stone wrote: > On 04/18/2015 11:55 PM, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: >> But then you get into endless discussions about the name. > > How about a small committee to select 3-5 possible names for review? > Liam Quin could be the Chair and Sam Bagot could represent potential > GIMP users who are unwilling to deal with the unwanted connotations of > the name "GIMP". There will be no name change. -- Regards, Michael GPG: 96A8 B38A 728A 577D 724D 60E5 F855 53EC B36D 4CDD ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 26/04/15 17:06, Elle Stone wrote: How about a small committee to select 3-5 possible names for review? Liam Quin could be the Chair and Sam Bagot could represent potential GIMP users who are unwilling to deal with the unwanted connotations of the name "GIMP". That committee couldn't be small, because its members should be sufficiently familiar with all languages of the world and their dialects and slangs to ensure that the chosen new name would not be offensive/ridicule for some other demographic? ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/18/2015 11:55 PM, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: On Wed, 2015-04-08 at 12:58 -0500, Sam Bagot wrote: A product called Gimp can't be used [in schools] Although GIMP can be used in at least some schools, I agree with your premise. These conversations always seem to run the same course: A: the name GIMP is offensive to me, or to people with whom I work. B: No. The name GIMP isL not offensive. A: yes it is. B: It doesnt offend me, and your opinion doesn't matter to me. A: We like the name. Bye. For my own part I have some hesitation - for example, I am not about to go to a meeting on making the Web accessible to people with special needs while wearing a "GIMP" tee-shirt, and obviously can't promote GIMP usage too openly at work. You make a good point. I never thought about the "tee-shirt" angle. Now that you mention it, I would happily wear a "Krita" tee-shirt anywhere it might be appropriate to wear a tee-shirt. But I wouldn't wear a "GIMP" tee-shirt anywhere (not even at home - what if the doorbell rang?) because the connotations of the word "gimp" are too offensive to too many people. The "brand" argument doesn't really cut much ice - plenty of other Free and proprietary applications have been renamed in the past, and the publicity can increase visibility. Another excellent point. Maybe instead of GIMP 3.0 we could have a Goat Rainbow 1.0 or something? But then you get into endless discussions about the name. How about a small committee to select 3-5 possible names for review? Liam Quin could be the Chair and Sam Bagot could represent potential GIMP users who are unwilling to deal with the unwanted connotations of the name "GIMP". In the meantime, for school use, could you refer to the program as the GNU Image Manipulation Program, and if people comment on GIMP explain it's short for the longer name as that's too long to use everywhere? Best, Elle ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
How do we know that the word "Gnu" is not offensive in some schools in some culture in some language? Also, the word "manipulation" has negative connotations for some people in some cultures .. On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 10:55 PM, Liam R. E. Quin wrote: > On Wed, 2015-04-08 at 12:58 -0500, Sam Bagot wrote: >> A product called Gimp can't be used [in schools] > > > Although GIMP can be used in at least some schools, I agree with your > premise. > > These conversations always seem to run the same course: > > A: the name GIMP is offensive to me, or to people with whom I work. B: > No. The name GIMP is not offensive. > A: yes it is. > B: It doesnt offend me, and your opinion doesn't matter to me. A: We > like the name. Bye. > > For my own part I have some hesitation - for example, I am not about > to go to a meeting on making the Web accessible to people with special > needs while wearing a "GIMP" tee-shirt, and obviously can't promote > GIMP usage too openly at work. If it was called "Wilber", or maybe > "Nazi" or "Spic" or "Hun"... hmm, no, not those last three perhaps, > but Wilber would be OK. > > The "brand" argument doesn't really cut much ice - plenty of other > Free and proprietary applications have been renamed in the past, and > the publicity can increase visibility. > > Maybe instead of GIMP 3.0 we could have a Goat Rainbow 1.0 or > something? > > But then you get into endless discussions about the name. > > In the meantime, for school use, could you refer to the program as the > GNU Image Manipulation Program, and if people comment on GIMP explain > it's short for the longer name as that's too long to use everywhere? > > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, 2015-04-08 at 12:58 -0500, Sam Bagot wrote: > A product called Gimp can't be used [in schools] Although GIMP can be used in at least some schools, I agree with your premise. These conversations always seem to run the same course: A: the name GIMP is offensive to me, or to people with whom I work. B: No. The name GIMP is not offensive. A: yes it is. B: It doesnt offend me, and your opinion doesn't matter to me. A: We like the name. Bye. For my own part I have some hesitation - for example, I am not about to go to a meeting on making the Web accessible to people with special needs while wearing a "GIMP" tee-shirt, and obviously can't promote GIMP usage too openly at work. If it was called "Wilber", or maybe "Nazi" or "Spic" or "Hun"... hmm, no, not those last three perhaps, but Wilber would be OK. The "brand" argument doesn't really cut much ice - plenty of other Free and proprietary applications have been renamed in the past, and the publicity can increase visibility. Maybe instead of GIMP 3.0 we could have a Goat Rainbow 1.0 or something? But then you get into endless discussions about the name. In the meantime, for school use, could you refer to the program as the GNU Image Manipulation Program, and if people comment on GIMP explain it's short for the longer name as that's too long to use everywhere? ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
El mié, 15-04-2015 a las 10:43 -0400, Elle Stone escribió: > On 04/15/2015 08:19 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: > > On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, Simon Budig wrote: > > >> No. It would only play into the hands we already have with fake > >> packagers who sell Gimp without mentioning the Gimp brand name and > >> without mentioning that Gimp is available for free as well. > > > > > > Indeed - > > Mr. Bagot - > > I think the best approach you have is write the Software name in full > > in all possible instances > > (e-mails, documents, letters, etc...) - just write "GNU Image > > Manipulation Program" - and leave > > the acronym as if it did not exist in all written documents. > > ... > > Exactly. Software developers shouldn't be required to choose names that > are free of all unwanted connotations in all languages, especially given > that new unwanted connotations spring up just as fast as old unwanted > connotations fade away. > > Connotations are in people's mind, not in actual words. I am a native > English speaker, but I didn't "hear" the unwanted connotations in the > word GIMP until a couple of friends snickered, which reflects rather > more badly on their minds than it does on the name "GIMP". Guys, don't get me wrong. I didn't suggest that the name has to be changed or that it's even possible to choose a name that is 100% free of accidental connotations for a project. I just threw an idea about a possible solution for people who wanted to use GIMP but had troubles with the name. A patch for changing the name in the UI. You live in an area where the name of the program could be a problem? then build GIMP using the patch. Maybe changing the name isn't even required. What about just adding punctuation to make the the acronym thing more obvious? So, to be clear: what about a patch that replaces the few places in the UI the name GIMP with G.I.M.P.? Not for everyone, just for the people who want to use GIMP but have issues with the name. Personally I'd prefer that people can get over this kind of stuff and do nothing about the name, but the prospect of over-sensitive people keeping GIMP out of children schools because of the name makes me wonder if a little compromise isn't a reasonable idea. It's not the end of the world, and there are several precedents of products that were renamed for specific markets. The funniest one I know is the case of the Mitsubishi Pajero, that was renamed to Mitsubishi Montero because "pajero" means "wanker" in several spanish speaking countries. That's far worse than spanish people expecting Joao to be good :-) Gez. ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, Apr 15, 2015, 4:41 AM Simon Budig wrote: > > Gez (lis...@ohweb.com.ar) wrote: > > > > If somebody provided > > a good patch for building GIMP easily with a different name as an > > option, would you accept that patch? > > No. It would only play into the hands we already have with fake > packagers who sell Gimp without mentioning the Gimp brand name and > without mentioning that Gimp is available for free as well. Sounds like closing the barn door after the horses have all escaped. Rockwalrus ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/15/2015 08:19 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, Simon Budig wrote: No. It would only play into the hands we already have with fake packagers who sell Gimp without mentioning the Gimp brand name and without mentioning that Gimp is available for free as well. Indeed - Mr. Bagot - I think the best approach you have is write the Software name in full in all possible instances (e-mails, documents, letters, etc...) - just write "GNU Image Manipulation Program" - and leave the acronym as if it did not exist in all written documents. In my experience, name connotations are a matter os perception, and many times it just hit us in certain contexts - and may not bother our neighbors at all. For example, it was only when phrasing this paragraph I stopped to think about the sound of your last name would have in my native language, and the possible linked connotations - but just because I forced myself to think into it in this context. Just as I don expect a full 400 million Spanish speakers to think of me as a "good" person. Exactly. Software developers shouldn't be required to choose names that are free of all unwanted connotations in all languages, especially given that new unwanted connotations spring up just as fast as old unwanted connotations fade away. Connotations are in people's mind, not in actual words. I am a native English speaker, but I didn't "hear" the unwanted connotations in the word GIMP until a couple of friends snickered, which reflects rather more badly on their minds than it does on the name "GIMP". Best, Elle ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 15 April 2015 at 05:40, Simon Budig wrote: > Gez (lis...@ohweb.com.ar) wrote: >> [...] optional patch >> that provides and easy way to remove the name GIMP from the UI, >> replacing it for a different one? >> >> Now, seriously. What do devs think about this idea? If somebody provided >> a good patch for building GIMP easily with a different name as an >> option, would you accept that patch? > > No. It would only play into the hands we already have with fake > packagers who sell Gimp without mentioning the Gimp brand name and > without mentioning that Gimp is available for free as well. Indeed - Mr. Bagot - I think the best approach you have is write the Software name in full in all possible instances (e-mails, documents, letters, etc...) - just write "GNU Image Manipulation Program" - and leave the acronym as if it did not exist in all written documents. In my experience, name connotations are a matter os perception, and many times it just hit us in certain contexts - and may not bother our neighbors at all. For example, it was only when phrasing this paragraph I stopped to think about the sound of your last name would have in my native language, and the possible linked connotations - but just because I forced myself to think into it in this context. Just as I don expect a full 400 million Spanish speakers to think of me as a "good" person. Best regards, js -><- > > Bye, > Simon > > -- > si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ > ___ > gimp-developer-list mailing list > List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org > List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list > List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Gez (lis...@ohweb.com.ar) wrote: > [...] optional patch > that provides and easy way to remove the name GIMP from the UI, > replacing it for a different one? > > Now, seriously. What do devs think about this idea? If somebody provided > a good patch for building GIMP easily with a different name as an > option, would you accept that patch? No. It would only play into the hands we already have with fake packagers who sell Gimp without mentioning the Gimp brand name and without mentioning that Gimp is available for free as well. Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
El mié, 08-04-2015 a las 12:58 -0500, Sam Bagot escribió: > Hi, my name is Sam and I have been involved in several projects ranging > from art classes in public schools to local art communities around Austin. > I am a Linux person and use Gimp for everything. I keep running across the > same problem though. The name Gimp is offensive to people and suggests > inferiority to Photoshop. In my experience, institutions would much rather > pay for a professional product than teach a class to children involving > gimps. Which is also inappropriately associated with BDSM sex. Either way > it's looked at. A product called Gimp can't be used by a public or private > school. > > Is there any thought on salvaging the marketing effort and renaming this > product so that it can be taken seriously by people and institutions? > Also, a big barrier to entry adopting Linux for people is a solid graphic > manipulator. The bad branding is causing many people in my art communities > around Austin to avoid Linux in general. > > What are the plans on renaming and success? Hi Sam, this issue has been brought here a lot of times, and the answers are pretty much the ones you already got: GIMP is an acronym, and is not going to be changed. I have a suggestion, though: Since this seems to be a problem that only affects people from the USA, why not looking for some volunteers from that country to contribute with code or some money for an optional patch that provides and easy way to remove the name GIMP from the UI, replacing it for a different one? For instance, you could call the program "Wilber", which is the name of the project's mascot. There are rumors that Wilber is not a dog, but a GIMP. But nobody has to know it :-) Now, seriously. What do devs think about this idea? If somebody provided a good patch for building GIMP easily with a different name as an option, would you accept that patch? In that case, a document with instructions for building the official GIMP with its name changed, linked from the FAQs would be a quick answer for these recurring inquires about a name change. Gez ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On 04/11/2015 06:54 AM, Simon Budig wrote: Hi Sam. Sam Bagot (dsm...@gmail.com) wrote: Is there any thought on salvaging the marketing effort and renaming this product so that it can be taken seriously by people and institutions? Also, a big barrier to entry adopting Linux for people is a solid graphic manipulator. The bad branding is causing many people in my art communities around Austin to avoid Linux in general. What are the plans on renaming and success? Basically our approach is to redefine what "Gimp" means. In the vast majority of the world "Gimp" refers to the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, the alternate interpretation is unknown to most people in the world. Renaming Gimp would hurt our brand badly and is not an option. If it is a problem in your local area (some areas in the US typically) that is unfortunate, but we need to rely on your powers to explain that we're helping in getting rid of the derogatory interpretation of the term "Gimp". There is no denying that in the US (the entire US, not geographically limited), the name "Gimp" sounds odd and has unfortunate associations that have nothing to do with image editing. I was told on IRC that the name is not Gimp or gimp but "GIMP", Gnu Image Manipulation Program. If you always refer to GIMP instead of Gimp, the name is more obviously an acronym and some of the unwanted mental associations don't spring so easily to mind. It might help if GIMP developers and the GIMP website consistently use the word "GIMP" instead of Gimp/gimp (the website already mostly does use GIMP, but the logo on the home page is lower-case). If teachers and school administrators balk at the name, perhaps they could think of it as an opportunity for some sensitivity training. The English language is full of perfectly fine words that have unfortunate connotations. If we stop using words just because someone might be offended by the connotations, we will run out of words altogether. Best, Elle ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Sam Bagot wrote: > The name Gimp [...] suggests inferiority to Photoshop. Yes, some people tend to overthink :) > In my experience, institutions would much rather > pay for a professional product than teach a class to children involving > gimps. In my experience, institutions are all different. Some will refuse to use GIMP, some will rename desktop icon or even patch out the "offensive" name through out GUI, and many others will use it as-is. > A product called Gimp can't be used by a public or private school. It can, it has been, and it will be. > What are the plans on renaming and success? None whatsoever. Personally, I have no particularly bad feelings (as if they mattered) about renaming the app, but I've spent probably a week reading threads on this "GIMP is a horrible name" topic by now, with maybe a hundred new name suggestions, and I've yet to see one, just one sensible name replacement that wouldn't look like IT people trying to be funny. Alex ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Hi Sam. Sam Bagot (dsm...@gmail.com) wrote: > Is there any thought on salvaging the marketing effort and renaming this > product so that it can be taken seriously by people and institutions? > Also, a big barrier to entry adopting Linux for people is a solid > graphic manipulator. The bad branding is causing many people in my art > communities around Austin to avoid Linux in general. > > What are the plans on renaming and success? Basically our approach is to redefine what "Gimp" means. In the vast majority of the world "Gimp" refers to the Gnu Image Manipulation Program, the alternate interpretation is unknown to most people in the world. Renaming Gimp would hurt our brand badly and is not an option. If it is a problem in your local area (some areas in the US typically) that is unfortunate, but we need to rely on your powers to explain that we're helping in getting rid of the derogatory interpretation of the term "Gimp". Bye, Simon -- si...@budig.de http://simon.budig.de/ ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
[Gimp-developer] Gimp in private schools and educational institutions
Hi, my name is Sam and I have been involved in several projects ranging from art classes in public schools to local art communities around Austin. I am a Linux person and use Gimp for everything. I keep running across the same problem though. The name Gimp is offensive to people and suggests inferiority to Photoshop. In my experience, institutions would much rather pay for a professional product than teach a class to children involving gimps. Which is also inappropriately associated with BDSM sex. Either way it's looked at. A product called Gimp can't be used by a public or private school. Is there any thought on salvaging the marketing effort and renaming this product so that it can be taken seriously by people and institutions? Also, a big barrier to entry adopting Linux for people is a solid graphic manipulator. The bad branding is causing many people in my art communities around Austin to avoid Linux in general. What are the plans on renaming and success? ___ gimp-developer-list mailing list List address:gimp-developer-list@gnome.org List membership: https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list List archives: https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
