Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You make me do a lot of research. This is because, as I have discovered, that you present only part of the data to support your agenda. But goanetters are lucky. I love to look at data. :=)) Gilbert, Did you read the rest of what you wrote, and notice your double standards? Did you notice that you have not changed the luck of Goanetters at all because you have provided extremely selective and limited data, even less than me? Moreover, you have claimed that Japan is a traditional country as opposed to a modern one. You have also made up your own rules, and modified them with each post according to your convenience. But since you imply that traditional societies have lower incarceration rates than modern ones, why stop at only 3 countries, namely India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka? Why not take the mean of the incarceration rates of all traditional countries and compare it with that of all modern countries? The mean incarceration rate of all 183 traditional countries for which these data are available is 167.8 per 100,000 people. The mean incarceration rate of all 25 modern countries for which these data are available is 126.2 per 100,000 people. The standard errors of the mean for the two sets of countries are 9.5 and 25.8, respectively. These data should settle the question of whether traditional countries have a lower incarceration rate than modern countries or not. Unless, of course, you want to move the goal post further, and modify the definitions again, or claim something else. Now regarding the apples and oranges confusion that you have presented with regard to divorce rates, here is the U.S. divorce rate trend for the last 34 years again, this time denoted as rate per 1000 people. 1972 4.1 divorces per 1000 people 1981 5.3 divorces per 1000 people 2000 4.1 divorces per 1000 people Furthermore, in 1946 the divorce rate had peaked at 4.3 divorces per 1000 people. I have also noted earlier that divorce is not considered immoral by modern secular society, and by at least one ancient religion, namely Islam. You are indeed a friend. So you continue to refuse to name your religious or non-religious path. I told you to refer to the 10-year Goanet and Goa-Goan archives to find out about my views on religious issues. If you had done that you would have noticed that my path is that of a naturalist and a realist. You would have also noticed that I do not claim to have any reason to either disbelieve or believe in innocuous spiritual beliefs, and that I practice desirable practices and expose harmful ones. Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies- to Gilbert L. Kevin S.
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. NO to all 4 questions. George --- Aristo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) Do you sincerely believe that Theists (which, since you clearly failed in theology, means those who believe in God, including non-religious Agnostics), ARE MORE LIKELY THAN ATHEISTS to be morally good, or commit less crimes? In other words, are criminals in prisons MORE LIKELY TO BE Atheists? 2) Do you sincerely believe that the world requires more Theists rather than Atheists? 1) Do you believe that Theists are ignorant and everyone should convert to Atheism for the greater good of humanity? 2) Do you intend on enlightening Goanet in the future about how Atheism is better than Theism? ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Gilbert wrote: I am a bit tired of Goanetters who preach one thing (to appear intellectual) and personally practice another philosophy. I do hope you and others do not reap what you preach. Yet it is useful to remember that a seed does not fall far from the tree. Gilbert, Almost everything you have written in response to the data that I provided in reply to your own request, is inconsequential, erroneous or trite (Please see the above quote for example). I will just point out some misrepresentations and misconceptions in it. You started by saying you were not going to respond to innuendo (good). Then you went on to provide a whole bunch of innuendos (not good). In supplying the statistics, you intermixed the US data with India data. The latter appeared to be a combination of contemporary data with what existed 100 years ago (grandmother's era). I suspect you dont understand the meaning of the word innuendo. Please look it up in a standard English dictionary. Your assertion that I mixed Indian data with U.S. data is utterly bogus. I only provided U.S. data. I do not have access to Indian data as yet. The statements regarding my grandmother and great grandmother were made because you asked for information about India, and what I have stated is common knowledge among Indians. They are also pertinent facts with regard to morality because child-marriage is now regarded as inappropriate, immoral and abusive. As an example you refer to US data on teen-age mothers (likely school dropouts) who have children out of wedlock (some with multiple fathers) living in single parent homes surviving on the government's safety net. This is compared (favorably) to our (Indian) grandmother's social structure where the young girls were married and living in a joint-family system with an immense amount of near and extended family and social support system. Pure garbage. I have made no such comparison. I provided actual numbers only for the U.S. You also find a good similarity of single-parent homes (mistakenly termed single family homes) due to divorce in modern society to widowed parents in traditional societies. Hogwash. There are widowed parents in all societies. Divorce is also present in all societies. Some old religions have allowed divorce (indeed, made it easy to obtain a divorce) for the past hundreds of years e.g. Islam. In the U.S., according to the 2001 census, 10.6% of the women are currently widowed and 10.8% divorced. I did not include rape etc as a separate end-point because I had to stop somewhere to make it easier on you. Sorry that the actual numbers I provided are harder for you to digest. Sorry for making things uncomfortable for you. Yet that and other social situations would be reflected under prison population. This statistic (per thousand population) is much higher in the modern / western world that in traditional societies. Nonsense. The incarceration rates are much lower for all other western or technologically advanced countries. U.S. is an exception. Here are the incarceration rates for several developed countries. U.S. 714 per 100,000 population Canada 116 per 100,000 population England and Wales 142 per 100,000 population France 91 per 100,000 population Germany 96 per 100,000 population Spain 140 per 100,000 population Netherlands 123 per 100,000 population Denmark 70 per 100,000 population Norway 65 per 100,000 population Sweden 75 per 100,000 population Japan 58 per 100,000 population Australia 117 per 100,000 population - These are February 2005 numbers obtained from the International Centre for Prison Studies Kings College London School of Law (Sunith Velho had nothing to do with this information). So with due respects, using your pro-science and logical bent, your comparative statistical conclusions, have little meaning. You have on purpose chosen to make sarkem goddxem zalam. Gilbert, Do you remember that the numbers I provided were requested by you? Are you now disappointed that they do not support your case? Contrary to your understated numbers, in contemporary western societies, the divorce rates is close to 50% of all marriages. A bogus assertion even from the standpoint of the U.S. The numbers I obtained were from a graph provided by the U.S. Census Bureau and National Center for Health Statistics. The commonly misreported and misconceived 50% value refers to the annual
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Santosh, Thanks for your response. It was helpful though confusing. Given the heat wave we are having across the USA, I was wondering if that was due to the heat in Houston on New York. You started by saying you were not going to respond to innuendo (good). Then you went on to provide a whole bunch of innuendos (not good). In supplying the statistics, you intermixed the US data with India data. The latter appeared to be a combination of contemporary data with what existed 100 years ago (grandmother's era). As an example you refer to US data on teen-age mothers (likely school dropouts) who have children out of wedlock (some with multiple fathers) living in single parent homes surviving on the government's safety net. This is compared (favorably) to our (Indian) grandmother's social structure where the young girls were married and living in a joint-family system with an immense amount of near and extended family and social support system. You also find a good similarity of single-parent homes (mistakenly termed single family homes) due to divorce in modern society to widowed parents in traditional societies. In the latter, there are grandparents and social support systems of both sides of the family. This is not to mention that in the former cases the situation can be generally forestalled while in the latter case, it was tragic. I did not include rape etc as a separate end-point because I had to stop somewhere to make it easier on you. Yet that and other social situations would be reflected under prison population. This statistic (per thousand population) is much higher in the modern / western world that in traditional societies. So with due respects, using your pro-science and logical bent, your comparative statistical conclusions, have little meaning. You have on purpose chosen to make sarkem goddxem zalam. Contrary to your understated numbers, in contemporary western societies, the divorce rates is close to 50% of all marriages. And one in three children grow in single-parent homes. I will not quote to you what happens in Goa TODAY, lest Sunith accuses me again of living in a bygone era. He of course will not provide us with factual data of the three communities, rather relying on impressions. and insinuations The point of this dialogue is that you and other atheists claim, the lack of religious beliefs in today's society is great. And the rock solid moral codes of a community are irrelevant to modern society. While I and others submit to you that lack of those cohesive forces (on the mob) is taking a tremendous assault on the family, which is the basic unit of any community and social structure. I concede that modern society is economically ahead of traditional society. Yet I disagree with you that modern communities is socially head of traditional communities because of their more liberal attitudes. I continue to maintain that modern societies' social fabric is being torn apart. Finally, instead of asking me to read about Atheism which is not what you believe in, perhaps you need to give us the title / name of your belief. Thus we have a better understanding of your philosophic perspectives from independent sources. And make sure it is consistent with your writings. I am a bit tired of Goanetters who preach one thing (to appear intellectual) and personally practice another philosophy. I do hope you and others do not reap what you preach. Yet it is useful to remember that a seed does not fall far from the tree. Kind Regards, GL - Santosh Helekar wrote: Sorry, I will not respond in kind to your innuendo in the above post. Most common medical problems have causes that have nothing to do with morality e.g. heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer and stroke. What is the relationship between morality and psychological problems, stress and depression? I am curious as to why you did not include homicides, rapes and the number of executed prisoners. But here are the actual numbers for your list and more: 1. Divorce rates: 1945 ? 18 per 1000 married women; 1973 ? 23 per 1000 married women; 2001 ? 18 per 1000 married women. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Gilbert I saw Santosh's statistical date supplied to you. This is enough for me. As to me challenging Santosh about anything, a need has not arisen. I regret I will have not have time to address the remaining points you had posed for Santosh. Good wishes Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 3:50 AM Subject: Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies Hi Cornel, Thanks for your long reply. Thanks for waiting for my response. Sunith thinks I work with the same efficiency as my computer. Now he knows, that my e-mail response is a little faster than snail mail. He is actually lucky, because some don’t even get my response. Only the respected ones do. (half of the 10% of e-mails that I read). ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Gibert Lawrence: Sunith thinks I work with the same efficiency as my computer. Now he knows, that my e-mail response is a little faster than snail mail. He is actually lucky, because some don?t even get my response. Only the respected ones do. (half of the 10% of e-mails that I read). Sunith Responds: No offence intended Mr. Lawrence. Just that I forget I'm probably the only lucky goa-netter who is idle throughtout the day and will be so till I commence my studies in September. I quit my job (after two years without leave...) so I really dont know what to do with my free time, after all one can only spend so many hours on swimming, trekking, sudoku, feni and food. Regards Sunith Velho Panjim-Goa ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies (S)
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Hi Sunith, Some of us, mortals, have to earn a living. The last line of my first response to you, stated that the second part of the response was coming. From your hasty response, we now know, you have access to all data all over the world. So, please let's work the assignment. I am indeed waiting for my whole ill structured argument will collapse. Please keep your responses short, sweet and to the point. Please do not duck the questions with historical societies and those we are not fully familiar with. Keep that, and the verbosity for your English profs when you get to England. Likely, the only thing you know about Hill Billies and Hamish societies is perhaps how to spell their names... even that's suspect. (It should be Hillbilly and Amish). In your emotional reaction to respond, you have totally failed again to understand the gist of my posts. I am requesting you to compare CURRENT traditional societies and socio-economically advanced societies. These are the best terms that most goanetters will understand for the two groups. Please do not be argumentative about the semantics, in an attempt to duck the issue. Ami Goenkars are very good at this. Congrats for going to Kings College, London, for your Masters. Long before you were born, I've been there (London) and done that (got my Royal College degrees). Do not be too excited till you have passed those competitive exams. So for now, your plans to go to Kings College, London will impress only your Mundkars and other tenements. :=)) Aum / Ami rautam tujea borea respostak. Kind Regards, GL --- velho wrote Sunith responds: please point out a single source of information (except for Fox News of course!!) that you, Santosh or Elisabeth have access to and I dont, I would highly appreciate it. I'm moving to Kings College, London in September to do my masters. I will then sign off London, UK instead of Panjim, Goa. Bad news buddy One of the pillars of your whole ill structured argument will collapse. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. Gilbert Lawrence wrote: I was completely flabbergasted to have recently discovered, three Goanetters (and likely a few more) who masquerade as atheists. Sunith reponds: Gilbert please wake up to the times because you seem to be horrified, flabbergasted and upset a great deal when you hear views which oppose you own. Obviously, I beleive your views belong to the dark ages. Gilbert Lawrence wrote: I will excuse Sunith, as the guy is too young to know about Catholicism or atheism. At his age, many are atheists. It helps with their social life. Remember amchem tempar? :=)) Sunith reponds: The above statement implies. 1. That you accuse me of living an immoral lifestlye and seem to know alot about my social life. 2. In tumchem tempar, either you were an atheist and/or your friends(acquaintances) were. 3. It clearly proves my point that your attitude is found mostly in old people. The only reason I said I was young was to prove my point and not for any kind of sympathy from fellow netters. Well the bomb has dropped, and this is going to seriously affect your chances of cannonisation. Please remember that I will not be cowed by insults. It just bores me to stoop to your level. Regards Sunith Velho Panjim-Goa P.S. The Afterlife and soul are also concepts that satanists and other forms of non accepted worship hold as their pillars. For the sake of christians the world over, don't generalise and be SPECIFIC! Always. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
* G * O * A * N * E * T C * L * A * S * S * I * F * I * E * D * S * Enjoy your holiday in Goa. Stay at THE GARCA BRANCA from November to May There is no better, value for money, guest house. Confirm your bookings early or miss-out Visit http://www.garcabranca.com for details/booking/confirmation. --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look forward to the re-submission. Then we can decide about the hackneyed notion ani hollow cliches ani tea bhair more! Or if this post is Pro-science and logical - really? Aum / Ami rautam tujea borea respostak. Aum tujo Goenkar bhau, GL Gilbert, Sorry, I will not respond in kind to your innuendo in the above post. Regarding the list you provided, it appears you have not looked at any of the actual numbers, because they do not support your case regarding deterioration of morality at all. Plus, some of the items in your list are absurd e.g. medical problems in adults, psychological problems, stress, depression, single-family homes, children brought up in single-family homes, and ADS in children. Most common medical problems have causes that have nothing to do with morality e.g. heart disease, hypertension, diabetes, cancer and stroke. What is the relationship between morality and psychological problems, stress and depression? People living in multi-family housing such as apartment buildings are no more moral than those living in single-family homes. Don't you live in a single-family home? Now if you are referring to single-parent homes then the one of the most common reasons for single parenthood is death of one parent, especially in India, which nobody would consider immoral. Another non-immoral reason is adoption of a postnatal child or a frozen human embryo that would otherwise have been discarded. A third non-immoral reason from the standpoint of the parent would be a child born as a consequence of rape, the single parent being the victim in this case. The three reasons that might be regarded as immoral but only by a puritanical mind focussed on certain notions of sexual morality, are single unwed heterosexual parents, divorced or separated parents, and single homosexual parents. Do you regard these latter reasons as immoral? Also, do you regard divorce because of a failed marriage as immoral? Why is ADS in children immoral? Is it their fault or their parents fault? The inclusion of teenage motherhood actually backfires from your standpoint because before the 1950s, especially in India, every mother was a teenage mother. My great grandmother had 4 kids before the age of 20. Regarding statistical data on the other items you listed, I could not find continuous 100-year data on any of them, except homicide rates. Here are the available statistics on the items you listed for the U.S. I dont have access to Indian data as yet. We can certainly compare the present generation with the prior one, viz. 2000 2004 with 1970 1980. I also have values for the 1930s, 40s or 50s for some of them. I am curious as to why you did not include homicides, rapes and the number of executed prisoners. But here are the actual numbers for your list and more: 1. Divorce rates: 1945 18 per 1000 married women; 1973 23 per 1000 married women; 2001 18 per 1000 married women. 2. Single family homes: Please see above for why this is silly and/or confusing. But regarding single-parent homes: 1970 15% of children live in such homes; 1996 28% of children live in such homes; 3. Unwed and teenage mothers: Unwed mothers: 1957 15.8 live births per 1000 women; 1977 25.1 live births per 1000 women; 2004 23.7 live births per 1000 women. Teenage mothers: 1957 - 97.3 live births per 1000 women; 1970 69.5 live births per 1000 women; 2004 41.9 live births per 1000 women. 4. Children brought up in single family homes: Please see above for why this is silly and/or confusing. 5. Teenage sex: My grandmothers, and all my ancestors, especially the females, had teenage sex. But here are the numbers that I could find: 1982 46.9% females ever had sex, 55.2% (1988) males ever had sex; 2002 45.5 % ever had sex, 45.7 % males ever had sex. Teenage pregnancies: 1976 101.4 per 1000 women; 2000 84.5 per 1000 women. STDs: Syphilis/gonorrhea/chancroid 1950 342 per 100,000; 1970 343 per 100,000; 2003 128 per 100,000. 6. Drug abuse in adults and children: Drug abuse in high school seniors Cigarettes: 1980 - 30.5%; 2004 25% Marijuana: 1980 33.7%; 2004 19.9% Cocaine: 1980 5.2%; 2004 2.3% Inhalants: 1980 1.4%; 2004 1.5% Alcohol: 1980 72%; 2004 48% 7. Abortions on demand: 1976 - 24.2 per 1000 women; 2002 20.8 per 1000 women. 8. Psychologic problems in children including ADS
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
Hi Gilbert, I apologise for nothing. I will be glad to keep this argument going if that is your wish. Regards Sunith Velho P.S. I'm a bit disappointed with the patronising tone of your mail and promise to attack your ideas with renewed vigour once they are published. - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@goanet.org Cc: velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 10:44 PM Subject: Myths about ancient and modern societies Hi Sunitsh, Is this your way of apologizing for your unwarranted outburst? I am still working on a suitable response to it wait for the snail e-mail with suspense.:=)) I welcome intellectual and sometimes humorous responses. An poor response / outburst is a sad reflection of the source rather that the target it is aimed at. Kind Regards, GL Sunith Velho Ponje-Goem: Hi Gilbert, Thanks for clarifying you position. I will now rest my case and agree to disagree with your views, while I guess you'll do the same with mine. Just a word of caution in the future, if you count among your allies big bore bofors guns( like MG) and you are a big gun yourslef, at least expect some mortar fire in return. Its not personal, just a sustained attack. The pleasure was mine. Kind regards and the blessings of all gods in the pantheon to you. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/403 - Release Date: 7/28/2006 ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
--- velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. I'm moving to Kings College, London in September to do my masters. I will then sign off London, UK instead of Panjim, Goa. Sunith Good luck in your studies in London. It is always a source of pride and joy to see a fellow Goan do well, especially higher education. Whether it is London or any place else, I am sure you will do Goa proud. In London, I hope you will get a chance to meet Cornel Da Costa, Eddie Fernandes and Gabe Menezes. I have met them in cyberspace and Eddie (in person) and I am sure they will extend a welcoming hand. Eddie even knows a couple of Goan restaurants. All the best. Regards, George ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com Hi Sunith, To your question: Do you accept that some people need religion / written moral codes to guide them but others don't? or is it your contention that for society to progress everyone has to follow a God/written code? If not.. please list ur reasons. (A Yes or No answer to a specific question) Answer: YES and NO to your double-barrel question! Society needs a set of codes for its members to live by. Morality cannot be (always) legislated. And morality cannot be enforced (every where). So society has to develop a well recognized and accepted value system. Call that system (religion / moral / cultural codes / values) whatever you please. This is what I call the unwritten language of social behavior of a society. Religion / moral / cultural / value codes are not to pick and choose - though we often do it for convenience. Or else, each individual in society will have their own codes and rules (like own language) to use, when it is to their convenience. As an example, you may not think you have a responsibility to your parents 50+ yrs., or follow their codes / value system. Yet, that thinking will change overnight, if you get seriously ill. Now you'll expect / insist that they care for you - even though you are independent at 20+ yrs. I see this happening every day. Some parents may also think like their kid (used to) and say, Tough luck, kiddo. I appreciate your honesty in voluntarily informing us about your atheist belief and philosophy. That is better than many masqueraders, that we've recently encountered. Yet if you went to church, you would have heard / read this: Archbishop Filipe Neri Ferro of Goa and Daman says there is an erosion of values and principles in governance and rising corruption in the society and that families and schools can help children making citizens in India. Connect that to your: A vast majority of young people today (and they are the future of society after all!!) . Finally refraining from writing posts because, you'll receive responses like mine is a cop-out. Goanet is the best way for young Goans (boys and girls) to meet / face and overcome challenges that all (young and old) face in life. I find it difficult to correlate your hesitancy to write with the optimism you display below. Good wishes. Enjoyed having this exchange of views with you. Regards, GL Sunith Velho, Panjim-Goa, wrote: As a youngster I find that your views are more prevalent in the above 50 yrs. age group. There is hardly anyone I know from my age group( I am in my twenties now) who wishes they were born 50 or 100 yrs ago because life was better then. A vast majority of young people today (and they are the future of society after all!!) are optimistic of what the future holds if we continue on the present path of technology and scientific advancement with religion as a completely personal choice to provide solace/guidance to those who need it. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
Happy Birthday: St Britto's, which is 60 years old. Celebrations at St Jerome's Church Mapusa 11 am on July 30, 2006. Football match Loyola's vs. Britto's 11 am on July 31, 2006 at the school grounds. http://bmxgoa.com Hi Gilbert, Thanks for clarifying you position. I will now rest my case and agree to disagree with your views, while I guess you'll do the same with mine. Just a word of caution in the future, if you count among your allies big bore bofors guns( like MG) and you are a big gun yourslef, at least expect some mortar fire in return. Its not personal, just a sustained attack. The pleasure was mine. Kind regards and the blessings of all gods in the pantheon to you. Sunith Velho Ponje-Goem ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com Hi Sunith, Thanks for your response to my post. I am glad you kept it logical and short. Hope we can maintain it that way. I think you have totally mis-read my post. You have NOT COMPARED the social parameters of Taliban society to modern socio-economically advanced society! I am not requesting you to score a society. I am requesting a comparison of two societies for the same end-points. I suggested to compare the RATES for the various parameters for Modern and Traditional society. So the following makes no sense to me, Under Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Parameters 1-7 were close to zero. Parameter 8-11 probably remained the same. Parameters 12,13 probably decreased or stayed the same. Parameters 14-15 decreased dramatically (the Taliban owned all the weapons and the killed most of their prisoners). BTW, is Taliban rule representative of modern or old society or neither? Was Taliban rule even a society - Muslim or Afghan society? So before you digress (old Goanet trick), why don’t you check the data for the parameters that I outlined. Then compare those end-points for a modern and traditional- Goan Muslim, Hindu and Catholic societies? That in part may be difficult to research from Panaji. You may not have access to western data (or be exposed to it) unless you are well conversant with US or UK or EU statistics. Yet you could do it with the help of Santosh and Elisabeth. You live in Panaji-Goa, which may be in transition from old to new society. So you may or may not have a glimpse of the issues. Since you are young, I strongly urge you to look at the hard statistics / data / numbers - no explanations needed! Do not be satisfied with just giving opinions and having impressions; or dismissing other peoples' views (including older folks) with terms (not your's) like hackneyed and cliched terminologies. If the above two US residents do not cooperate in giving you the American data, that says a lot. It is perhaps, they are arm-chair discussants, or more likely, the statistics are so bad that they do not want to frighten you and the rest of us. It is not because they are too intellectual to work with you. The parameters you outline (2, 4, 5) like wars, self determined democratic political systems is a reflection of the government rather than the society governed. So I hope we can talk the same semantics referenced to the same subject group. I share your optimism for the future. As one progresses socio-economically, the skill is to learn from societies and others that have been down that path and avoid their pitfalls. A good modern society to emulate is Japanese and rural US society. Your challenge is how to emulate the good while avoiding the potholes. Panjim and Goa is a good incubator to hold-on to the age-tested values while also incorporating SOME WELL-TESTED new outlooks. So the old and new is NOT mutually EXCLUSIVE. It is not one OR the other, as some on Goanet make it out to be. One's smartness and innovation is how one can have both! It can be done. By the grace of God we and many others have achieved both. Response to your other points in another post. Kind Regards, GL Sunith Velho, Panjim-Goa wrote: As a supporter of scientific and logical argument will try to disapprove your simplistic analysis to support your belief that today's society is spinning out of control Under Taliban rule in Afghanistan. Parameters 1-7 were close to zero. Parameter 8-11 probably remained the same. Parameters 12,13 probably decreased or stayed the same. Parameters 14-15 decreased dramatically (the Taliban owned all the weapons and the killed most of their prisoners). So we can see that these parameters when used alone tell us nothing about the state of a society. I submit that some useful parameters for evaluating the state of world society would be 1. Female emancipation and equality. (After all half the world is female) 2. Number of Major Conflicts/Wars(In terms of number of deaths) 3. Racial tolerance 4. Religious/Belief Tolerance 5. Number of people living in self determined democratic political systems. What is your opinion of human progress w.r.t. these parameters(especially over the last century)? Goanetters can add to that list. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com Gilbert Lawrence writes: Thanks for your response to my post. I am glad you kept it logical and short. Hope we can maintain it that way. Sunith responds: First of all, you have not answered the very specific question I posed and instead responded with a long completely illogical sermon. So lets in the future keep it logical and short. Let me repeat that question. Do you accept that some people need religion/written moral codes to guide them but others don't? or is it your contention that for society to progress everyone has to follow a God/written code? If not.. please list your reasons.( A Yes or No answer to a specific question) Gilbert Lawrence writes: That in part may be difficult to research from Panaji. You may not have access to western data (or be exposed to it) unless you are well conversant with US or UK or EU statistics. Yet you could do it with the help of Santosh and Elisabeth. You live in Panaji-Goa, which may be in transition from old to new society. So you may or may not have a glimpse of the issues. BTW, is Taliban rule representative of modern or old society or neither? Was Taliban rule even a society - Muslim or Afghan society? So before you digress (old Goanet trick), why don?t you check the data for the parameters that I outlined. Then compare those end-points for a modern and traditional- Goan Muslim, Hindu and Catholic societies? Sunith responds: All us goans living in Goa( especially Panjim, Goa) are very thankful for your sympathy with regards to our lack of access to statistics and data. If you could please point out a single source of information(except for Fox News of course!!) that you, Santosh or Elisabeth have access to and I dont, I would highly appreciate it.(Very specific question deserving of an equally specific answer) If you wish to compare the parameters you mentioned only with respect to the the EU, UK and US please state so very explicitly. I'm sorry I was not aware the term society referred to Caucasian societies. Many thanks for including Goa as an after thought. My post was only to prove that the parameters you mentioned were more a less bogus as a means for evaluating any society be it American, Goan or Afghani. Once again you have failed to respond to the main issue and digressed (an old Gilbert Lawrence trick!). Gilbert Lawrence writes: Good modern society to emulate is Japanese and rural US society. Sunith responds: W.r.t. rural US society do you mean Hill Billies, Hamish, Mormons, Quakers, the Una-bomber and anarchists, the Ku-Klux klan, rural Alabama?? Please be specific. By Japanese do you mean the society that started WWII in Asia and later became famous for eating the internal organs of Allied soldiers in their prison camps?? Please please be more specific in the future. Gilbert Lawrence writes: The parameters you outline (2, 4, 5) like wars, self determined democratic political systems is a reflection of the government rather than the society governed. So I hope we can talk the same semantics referenced to the same subject group. Sunith responds: Is it your contention that governments and societies are mutually exclusive or that they share a very high degree of correlation?? Are the terms democratic, secular and racist used to describe governments, societies or both(Another very specific question). I have heard of the terms democratic/secular/racist being used to describe societies (all the while being stuck in poor ignorant Panjim, Goa), have you?? Are wars a clash between societies or governments?? Your second statement makes no sense because the frame of reference you use is bogus as a means for evaluating society(I hate to repeat myself!!). Please use your parameterss to compare Europe in the dark ages and Europe today.. Please use the same parameters to compare the USA(in the slave labour years) and the USA of today. Please use the same parameters to compare the R.S.A society pre and post apartheid You will find that most of the RATES have increased, so by your logic US society was better off with slavery, the South Africans with Apartheid and European society was better off believing the earth was flat(among many other things). Today's society is spinning out of control did someone say? If yours were the views of the majority I would definitely agree. Regards, Sunith Velho Panjim-Goa P.S. I'm moving to Kings College, London in September to do my masters. I will then sign off London, UK instead of Panjim, Goa. Bad news buddy One of the pillars of your whole ill structured argument will collapse. P.P.S. I
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies (Gilbert Lawrence)
Goanetters visiting Viva Goa 2006 in Toronto, Canada on July 29, can use the BMX booth as a meeting point. Please list your name on the message board that will be provided, courtesy of BMX. http://bmxgoa.com --- velho [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dr Helekar do you accept that many many people(a very significant portion worldwide) are happier and more content with their lives because of organised religion/written codes. If not...please list ur reasons.( A Yes or No answer to a specific question) Yes. Cheers, Santosh ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
Re: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
and this is Govenment policy in the UK. But despite this, young girls will choose to have babies as it is a mark of status (instead of educational qualifications) for them. Moreover, most of their families support them rather than cast them out in 'outer darkness' for the stigma which was common in past generations. Well Gilbert, I have typed away non stop and have now decided to stop. Perhaps I may continue on your other points at some other time but will not promise to do so. However, I should like to suggest that: a) you broaden your mind about contemporary life/society. Goanet as a learning instrument will most certainly help, particularly if you welcome ideas instead of blocking them out. b) think about society more broadly than only within your rather narrow middle class mind set. c) ask yourself, why you did not include prostitution in your long list of woes? Is it because it is supposedly the oldest known profession and that no amount of moralising even from within a rock solid moral Christian code on this issue has made the slightest dent in it including in most Catholic countries? d) explore the possibility that there are many logics and many consequent moralities which make this world such a challenging and exciting place. Morality also adapts to changing times. At one time, within living memory, a single woman having a child was deemed to be a scandalous occurence. Today, nobody really worries too much. Was there not a time when it was a mortal sin for Catholics to eat meat on a Friday? e) If indeed you are still troubled after engaging in at least a little thought from my long post, consider getting out of the USA! If you check with the recent happiness index ( happyplanetindex.org) you will discover that, the USA stood at point 150 while India came out at 62. The lower the figure, the happier the people. But, even India that you know so well, has not done that well. I could therefore recommend the first five for happiness: Vanuata, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominica, and Panama. I cannot vouch for these but would encourage you to consider them because you seem to find the USA so troubling a place. Best regards. Regret done at speed. Cornel - Original Message - From: Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: goanet@lists.goanet.org Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 10:56 PM Subject: [Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies Santosh baba, Kiteak petoita murre dotor-saab? You do not object to my claim that you are throwing moral and religion codes out of the window. You object to my claim of the effects of doing so. You are taking the comment with Thanks for calling me pro-science and logical too seriously. We will not question if it was too gratuitous. But before you get carried away, and your Texan hat gets too small for you, let's put your science ani logic to the test. :=)) You are good at zapping people's posts without specifics or science. You make statements and expect others to do the research to prove you wrong.Perhaps YOU can research the RATES for the following parameters for modern society, and compare them to US and Indian society three generations ago (100 years ago). 1. Divorce rates. 2. Single family homes. 3. Unwed and teenage mothers. 4. Children brought up in single family homes. 5. Teenage sex, pregnancies, STDs and school dropout rates. 6. Drug abuse in adults and children. 7. Abortions on demand. 8. Psychologic problems in children including ADS (Attention Deficit Syndrome). 9. Psychological and medical problems in adults including stress and depression rates. 10. Suicide rates among senior citizens. 11. Violence against children. 12. Spousal abuse. 13. Elder abuse. 14. Gun violence. 15. Prisoner / Incarceration rates per 100,000 population. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
[Goanet] Myths about ancient and modern societies
I submit that the hackneyed notion that today's society is spinning out of control from a moral standpoint is not grounded in fact. Basic human rights, civil rights, rights of women and children, rights of the under-represented, and even rights of other animals, are much more valued and respected today than at any time in the entire history of our civilization. Contrary to the hollow cliches propagated here and elsewhere, our morality has indeed advanced with our technological and socio-economic advancement. Cheers, Santosh --- Gilbert Lawrence [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So society (youth and adults) in many respects is spinning out of control, in spite of our increased academic and social-economic advancements. Partly because of these advancements, we think we are smart to pick and choose what is good / convenient for us - for NOW! This is the argument between Mario and Santosh, and what The rock solid moral code signifies for current and future Goan society. ___ Goanet mailing list Goanet@lists.goanet.org http://lists.goanet.org/listinfo.cgi/goanet-goanet.org
