Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer Sent: Wednesday, 18 March, 2015 21:57 To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank We use elite batteries with BMS no problems, the BMS sensor does seem to run warm we are now setting up 4, 100 Ah banks with no problems so far. Jerry Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards or any failure to communicate with them. Larry On Mar 18, 2015 1:52 PM, Bruce Erickson br...@mendocinosolar.com wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 tel:%2B604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 tel:%2B604-505-0291 Email: mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: http://www.xantrex.com/ www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrex.com/ Mail Attachment.gif https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO * Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? Bruce Erickson Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gifMail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gif Mail Attachment.gif ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Not at all. The EMS boards are well built and are protected under a cover with the terminals. I have not had any failures of the EMS boards or any failure to communicate with them. Larry On 3/18/15 4:52 PM, Bruce Erickson wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? *Bruce Erickson* Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com /Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!/1994-2014 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
We use elite batteries with BMS no problems, the BMS sensor does seem to run warm we are now setting up 4, 100 Ah banks with no problems so far. Jerry On Mar 18, 2015 1:52 PM, Bruce Erickson br...@mendocinosolar.com wrote: If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping? *Bruce Erickson* Mendocino Solar Service PO Box 1252 Mendocino, CA 95460 707-937-1701 707-937-1741 fax br...@mendocinosolar.com *Celebrating 20 Years in Solar!* 1994-2014 On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote: Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO * Jarmo Venalainen* | * Schneider Electric ** | Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* *jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com* jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:** www.Xantrex.com* http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ Mail Attachment.gif http://www.xantrex.com/ Mail Attachment.gif https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex Mail Attachment.gif https://twitter.com/Xantrex ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
We're leaning toward the LiFePO4 batteries (low internal resistance) GBS have a medium high resistance so they warm faster and have a lower C rate efficiency, were gathering info as we go.. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer Golden Bridge Development 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810Building a Better Future For The Next Generation From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2015 8:57 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Hi Jarmo, I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a state of rapid evolution. Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to disaster. Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the aged lead battery. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early adopters in the foreseeable future. From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered structures. This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions. If there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of Vancouver). It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries in Scandinavia. The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the MWh size. It can be done. What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature. When you're pushing large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell.. Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, http://corvus-energy.com/ I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... JARMO Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 | | | | | | | | | ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Larry, I've been checking out the [current] viability of Li+ technologies for RE systems, and I'm encouraged to hear of the success you've apparently had. What is the typical kWh size of the battery packs you've been putting together? Are you sourcing the GBS batteries directly from the manufacturer? I appreciate both your and Jarmo's comments about the safety concerns with this rapidly evolving technology. Feeling good about the long term safety of a large RE-scale Li-ion battery pack for my customers has been a major stumbling block for me thus far. Thanks, -Luke Luke Christy NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™: Certification #031409-25 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating Installer™: Certification #ST032611-03 CoSEIA Certified PV Installer Solar Gain Services, LLC PO Box 531 Monte Vista, CO. 81144 sgsrenewab...@gmail.com 719.588.3044 www.sgsrenewables.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Chris, Thanks for the recommendation. I received a quote from Comrent$1800 to rent a load for 1 week. Ouch! I'll go with the $10 water elements and a little fabrication time. I have AH counters and controllers to stop the discharge. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 2:38 PM, Chris Mason wrote: Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation. http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi: Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on the cell level. We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits, have already had two thermal events. Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged and 140F is the max they can handle). Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide down the hill from there. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
I was thinking of mounting the water heat elements into an aluminum plate, laying the plate flat over a 55 gallon drum and filling the water level up to the plate. Stratified water may make the top pretty hot but I guess it will work. Larry On 3/17/15 1:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Those look like your solution. Also water can take more heat with less trouble than air heaters. I've had air heaters start melting things, etc. You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them into a section of pipe with Ts and run water through it to cool the elements. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 1:40 PM, Larry wrote: Hey Ray, I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early 70's. I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some welding. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Larry, I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at slow speeds) A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at an electronics surplus store. Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. Good Luck. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Load banks are for rent, I am in the generator business and it is a common requirement to provide a load bank upon installation. http://www.comrent.com/Solutions/load-bank-rentals.html On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Hi James; So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and possibly be poisonous Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a recommendation on who rents those? 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of the batteries themselves? Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or bung to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they build water heater elements into things. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi: I cant put out anything which may show proprietary info, but here are a couple close up fragments of images of failure trials where the BMS system was not able to catch the issue before the event went out of bounds thermal. As you can see some kind of corrosive gas coated many surfaces inside the battery pack while reacting with and discoloring any aluminium which was in the near vicinity of the cells I definitely would not use any material other than metal or some other very chemical/heat/fire resistant materials in and around Lion cells and I'd vent the battery pack to the outdoors. I'm sure there will be many perfectly reliable and safe packs, but soon there will also be something like a melted laptop or cell phone on steroids as a typical solar system battery has about 3000X as much energy as the cell phone/laptop. JARMO _ Jarmo Venalainen | Schneider Electric | Xantrex Brand | CANADA | Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528 | Tech Support: 800-670-0707 | Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | Site: www.Xantrex.com | Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 03/17/2015 01:35 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org Hi James; So couldn't Larry weld in rigid conduit fittings? Aren't they NPSM, or do I have that wrong? I suppose the Zinc plating would make a messier weld and possibly be poisonous Also to Chris Mason, I was not aware that load banks were available for rent. That sounds like a good option to consider. Do you have a recommendation on who rents those? 3rd response to Jarmo: do you have any pictures of the Li+ thermal issues? Are we talking structure fire potential, or just destruction of the batteries themselves? Is this another reason not to use plywood battery boxes? R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or bung to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they build water heater elements into things. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org __ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. __ ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Jarmo, One of the reasons I chose to sell and install GBS batteries is the chemistry is safer, they have vent caps (like AGM) and they offer an integrated solution where the battery, EMS/BMS and CPU are all designed specifically for each other instead of adding various parts from different manufacturers. The chemistry is LFMP (lithium iron manganese) not LFP. There are seven monitored fault events, including temperature, current and voltage, that will disconnect the battery from any load or any charge source. Since we are installing in RV's, there are multiple charge sources and all must be controlled. The systems I design do this very well. Also, our charge and discharge rates are far lower than the industry normally expects; rarely reaching .5C. I have seen private videos of destructive testing of GBS cells. Steel rods fired through entire packs; slow crush tests from top and sides, impact tests, even cells blown away on a gun range (that was more for fun I think as not too likely you will experience that). No fire, no thermal events. Bottom line for me is these are likely the safest Lithium battery I can offer. Many customers have already had shut down events because they were not being responsible. A simple reset and they're back in business. What was the lithium chemistry that you had trouble with? Thank you, Larry Crutcher On 3/17/15 12:49 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote: Hi: Please be careful when working with solar system size Lithium packs on the cell level. We have been doing on-going testing with Lion battery packs from various suppliers and even with their built in temp sensors and other BMS circuits, have already had two thermal events. Lion is very unforgiving with regards low state of charge, high state of charge, temperature (110F is the max temp at which they should be charged and 140F is the max they can handle). Given the low thermal mass of Lion cells, a high rate of discharge or charge quickly gets the cell temperature into the 110F+ range. As soon as you cross the line things start happening and if the BMS doesn't put a stop to it by turning the battery pack off, it's a very quick slide down the hill from there. JARMO _ * Jarmo Venalainen* | *Schneider Electric **| Xantrex Brand* | *CANADA* | *Sales Application Engineer* * Phone:* +604-422-2528 | *Tech Support:* 800-670-0707 | *Mobile:* +604-505-0291 * Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_ mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | *Site:*_www.Xantrex.com_ http://www.xantrex.com/ | *Address:* 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 http://www.xantrexrebate.com/ http://www.xantrex.com/ https://www.facebook.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex https://twitter.com/Xantrex *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Larry la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, Date: 03/17/2015 11:41 AM Subject:[RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank Sent by:RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hi Larry, I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at slow speeds) A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at an electronics surplus store. Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. Good Luck. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
I would rent a load bank, it will give you the versatility to change loads as needed. On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:41 PM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com wrote: I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. -- Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches. org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Solar Design Engineer Generac Generators Industrial technician www.cometsolar.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com 264.235.5670 869.662.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
Hey Ray, I remember seeing huge banks of light bulbs as loads back in the early 70's. I need to test the entire bank as one unit as the first cell of 32 to reach 2.8 volts determines the capacity for the bank. I just saw Home Depot has a 2kW 120 volt water heater for $10. Guess I need to do some welding. Thank you, Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On 3/17/15 11:59 AM, Ray Walters wrote: Hi Larry, I think you hit on the best load already: water heater elements rated for 120 v. We have also used dump loads for wind turbines like the air heating elements from Bergey, but they are only about 1 kW each. Another possible source are the resistor banks for old golf carts (before they had controllers, they used resistor banks to operate at slow speeds) A very long time ago, an inverter company had a demonstration that used a large bank of incandescent light bulbs. They used to make a 300 watt bulb for mining, so 33 of those would work. (maybe a few more bulbs, since your voltage is bit lower than 120 v) Cheap electric space heaters would work too. You also might look around at an electronics surplus store. Whatever you do, it sounds like a lot of time and work to set up. Any chance of doing a smaller load test for subsets of the total bank? You might be able to use a standard 12 v battery load tester then. Good Luck. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/17/2015 12:41 PM, Larry wrote: I am repairing and restoring a pair of poorly designed lithium-ion battery bank that suffered over discharge, damaging many cells. After cell replacement I need to perform a discharge test with a 10kW load to verify the remaining capacity. The battery voltage is 105 volts @ 100% SoC and 89.6 volts @ 0% I would like advice on how I can create an economical 10kW load. Water heating element? Wire wound resistors? Are there any GT inverters that will operate at these voltages? Thanks. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank
On 3/17/2015 3:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Those look like your solution. Also water can take more heat with less trouble than air heaters. I've had air heaters start melting things, etc. You can just install those in the side of a 55 gal barrel with a bulkhead fitting, or yes, weld the appropriate plumbing fitting to the side of the barrel. Might even be able to install them into a section of pipe with Ts and run water through it to cool the elements. Note that water heater elements are NPSM (National Pipe Straight Mechanical) and not NPT. So you need that type of half coupling or bung to weld in. The vegi-oil people seem to have this sort of stuff as they build water heater elements into things. -- -James Jefferson Jarvis APRS World, LLC +1-507-454-2727 www.aprsworld.com ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
