Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Isarra Yos]

The cost has gone markedly up in the past few years. Scholarships don't 
really cover that, when who this is going to most affect is newcomers 
and less active contributors in the actual area whose voices we are 
particularly unlikely to hear at any other events/locations. These are 
not the people who are likely to be applying for scholarships in the 
first place (often they don't even think they'd deserve it to begin 
with), and requiring it of them now provides a much greater barrier to 
entry if they even realise they need to do so by the scholarship deadline.


Has this basic reality been addressed? Are there plans to better 
mitigate this in the future? The overall cost of a Wikimania has ever 
been subsidised by all sponsors, but now it seems in particular that the 
target audience has simply changed to largely exclude those of lower 
income by default. A higher or lower cost doesn't particularly impact 
those who can afford it, but for those who can't, it's an outright 
blocker. Even in sweden and the surrounding area we have many 
contributors who are not exactly well-off, and for next year, if the 
costs remain consistent, the impact is likely to be far greater.


-I

On 11/06/2019 19:13, Joël Letang wrote:

Hi everyone,

The concerns that have been raised here have, for the most part, been 
well addressed by those of you with event planning experience (thank 
you!). Still, I thought it was important to add some clarity and 
context where possible.


As some of you have mentioned, all Wikimanias are heavily subsidized 
by the Foundation, and only a small portion of the overall cost is 
passed on in the form of registration. Stockholm is more expensive 
than other locations, and the price of hosting the event at Stockholm 
University is comparable to that of any large event space, which is 
why the pricing is similar to Wikimania Montreal. However, while 
location is a factor in the overall cost of the event, we do try to 
mitigate fluctuations in registration price as much as possible.


Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even as costs have fluctuated, 
the number of scholarships awarded has indeed remained fairly constant 
over the last few years. Scholarships are a critical element of 
promoting equity and inclusion at our events. For many, an inability 
to attend is not due to the price of registration itself, but rather 
the travel and accommodations, and providing support for that will 
remain a top priority.


Thanks for your interest in Wikimania and the planning process.

Best,
Joël L.

*Jo**ël Letang* (he/him)*_
_*Events Team Manager
Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>



On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 2:20 PM Peter Southwood 
mailto:peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>> 
wrote:


I am in a similar position. I went to one Wikimania – it was in my
home city, so I commuted in each day. I am unlikely to be able to
attend another. The money would be better spent on other things
that are more necessary. This is probably pretty average. It was
worth attending that time because it was affordable. For most
Wikimedians it is not worth attending because it is not
affordable, and we prefer being able to eat regularly and sleep
under a roof.

Cheers,

Peter

*From:*Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org
<mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org>] *On Behalf Of *CS
*Sent:* 09 June 2019 11:11
*To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription)
    *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird
    Registration is Now Open!

My  position  is the same as that  of One/Risker, except  that  I
 am  a retiree on  a small   budget.

I  have self-financed all but  one  of my  Wikipedia trips, but
roughly  $3,000 for  a trip  to Sweden for  me  is totally  out
 of the question.

While I realize that  opportunities need to  be extended to  new
and curious users, some of us have worked very  hard for
 Wikipedia over the years, (and been on  the scholarships
committee), and for  the kind of work  we do, meeting  our
 colleagues and the WMF staff  face-to-face  is indispensable.

Not  being able to  attend does not  encourage further dedication
 to  Wikipedia.

The scholarships committee should take into account the personal
financial effort made by attendees of several conferences.

In  my  opinion, as not  all  users come from  wealthy  countries
such  as  North America  or Europe, Wikimania should be held in
more easily  accessible and lower cost  venues.

Kudpung



On 4 Jun 2019, at 13:10, Risker mailto:risker...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several
Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and
had the financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to
some, been subsidized for others with clear expectations that I
   

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Joël Letang]

Hi everyone,

The concerns that have been raised here have, for the most part, been well
addressed by those of you with event planning experience (thank you!).
Still, I thought it was important to add some clarity and context where
possible.

As some of you have mentioned, all Wikimanias are heavily subsidized by the
Foundation, and only a small portion of the overall cost is passed on in
the form of registration. Stockholm is more expensive than other locations,
and the price of hosting the event at Stockholm University is comparable to
that of any large event space, which is why the pricing is similar to
Wikimania Montreal. However, while location is a factor in the overall cost
of the event, we do try to mitigate fluctuations in registration price as
much as possible.

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, even as costs have fluctuated, the
number of scholarships awarded has indeed remained fairly constant over the
last few years. Scholarships are a critical element of promoting equity and
inclusion at our events. For many, an inability to attend is not due to the
price of registration itself, but rather the travel and accommodations, and
providing support for that will remain a top priority.

Thanks for your interest in Wikimania and the planning process.

Best,
Joël L.

*Jo**ël Letang* (he/him)
Events Team Manager
Wikimedia Foundation <https://wikimediafoundation.org/>



On Sun, Jun 9, 2019 at 2:20 PM Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> I am in a similar position. I went to one Wikimania – it was in my home
> city, so I commuted in each day. I am unlikely to be able to attend
> another. The money would be better spent on other things that are more
> necessary. This is probably pretty average. It was worth attending that
> time because it was affordable. For most Wikimedians it is not worth
> attending because it is not affordable, and we prefer being able to eat
> regularly and sleep under a roof.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> *From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
> Behalf Of *CS
> *Sent:* 09 June 2019 11:11
> *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription)
> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is
> Now Open!
>
>
>
> My  position  is the same as that  of One/Risker, except  that  I  am  a
> retiree on  a small   budget.
>
> I  have self-financed all but  one  of my  Wikipedia trips, but roughly
>  $3,000 for  a trip  to Sweden for  me  is totally  out  of the question.
>
> While I realize that  opportunities need to  be extended to  new and
> curious users, some of us have worked very  hard for  Wikipedia over the
> years, (and been on  the scholarships committee), and for  the kind of work
>  we do, meeting  our  colleagues and the WMF staff  face-to-face  is
> indispensable.
>
> Not  being able to  attend does not  encourage further dedication  to
>  Wikipedia.
>
> The scholarships committee should take into account the personal financial
> effort made by attendees of several conferences.
>
> In  my  opinion, as not  all  users come from  wealthy  countries such  as
>  North America  or Europe, Wikimania should be held in more easily
>  accessible and lower cost  venues.
>
>
>
> Kudpung
>
>
>
> On 4 Jun 2019, at 13:10, Risker  wrote:
>
>
>
> I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several
> Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and had the
> financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to some, been
> subsidized for others with clear expectations that I would carry out
> certain activities in exchange, and received one partial scholarship (which
> was supposed to be enough for my airfare - if I had booked it seven months
> in advance...).  Even when I've been subsidized, I've had out-of-pocket
> expenses that I did not receive reimbursement for until months later (if at
> all), but I am blessed not to have to worry about whether there will be
> food on the table or a roof over my head. We in the Western world are used
> to having paid vacation time - often multiple weeks per year - and that is
> another barrier for people in other countries with different cultures and
> economies. And many people from Europe and North America don't need to go
> through the expense and challenge of obtaining visas to most of the
> Wikimania or other conference locations.
>
>
>
> But hundreds - no, thousands - of dedicated contributors aren't in my/our
> position.  Even if they are lucky enough to get a full scholarship, they
> can't afford the time off work, or get the visa, or cover the upfront costs
> of the travel experience that may or may not be reimbursed.  They tend to
> be in locations far from wherever Wikimania may be, so paying out of their
> own pocket 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[CS]

decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their own 
> goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at  a 
> university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as 
> cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their 
> use. <>
>  
> 
> Kerry
> 
>  
> 
> From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org>] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos 
> Perneta
> Sent: Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
> To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) 
> mailto:wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!
> 
>  
> 
> Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia" 
> 
> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta 
> mailto:paulospern...@gmail.com>> escreveu:
> 
> For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like 
> Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which 
> really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, 
> corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, 
> actually).
> 
>  
> 
> 25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to 
> pay does seem quite obscene to me.
> 
>  
> 
> If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and 
> parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years 
> event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it 
> is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, 
> where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.
> 
>  
> 
> Paulo 
> 
>  
> 
> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra  <mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com>> escreveu:
> 
> As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly 
> inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend 
> the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more 
> accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ 
> to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater 
> participation from more communities.
> 
>  
> 
> On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko  <mailto:mycol...@ukr.net>> wrote:
> 
> In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can 
> perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for 
> all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, 
> Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that 
> we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.
> 
>  
> 
> This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is 
> an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really 
> understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more 
> expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.
> 
>  
> 
> I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full 
> experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where 
> all this money will go.
> 
>  
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Mykola (NickK)
> 
> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
> Від кого: "Isarra Yos" mailto:zhoris...@gmail.com>>
> Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17
> 
>  
> 
> On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
> > You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't 
> > think this is actually true. Some context:
> > - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
> > - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
> > - 2018: 275 USD
>  
> 2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was 
> fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost 
> when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning 
> was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the 
> included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not 
> much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch 
> being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, 
> and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first 
> place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may 
> indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of 
> fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have 
> been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the 
> Wikiconference USA/NA 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Federico Leva (Nemo)]

The registration fee is reasonable, or possibly on the cheap side given 
the typical costs 
(). Being 
Sweden I assume there will be good vegan options at all meals, otherwise 
it would be fair to allow unbundling the meals.


On the other hand, I'm not sure what's the point of the registration 
period being 2 weeks for early bird and 2 months for the base price. 
This creates an incentive to register only at the last minute, after one 
has decided all other details of the trip.


As noted, travel and accommodation usually make a much bigger share of 
the costs. It's soon too late to get the best prices, but I see on 
Airbnb there are still hundreds of rooms in Stockholm centre which cost 
less than the official accommodation for a single room, and a few dozens 
which cost less than the double room price. I've not checked university 
dorms/apartments but I think they start getting full already in August.


Federico

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Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Risker]

I've been extremely lucky over the years to have attended several
Wikimanias. I live in Canada (so almost never needed a visa) and had the
financial flexibility to do so. I've paid my own way to some, been
subsidized for others with clear expectations that I would carry out
certain activities in exchange, and received one partial scholarship (which
was supposed to be enough for my airfare - if I had booked it seven months
in advance...).  Even when I've been subsidized, I've had out-of-pocket
expenses that I did not receive reimbursement for until months later (if at
all), but I am blessed not to have to worry about whether there will be
food on the table or a roof over my head. We in the Western world are used
to having paid vacation time - often multiple weeks per year - and that is
another barrier for people in other countries with different cultures and
economies. And many people from Europe and North America don't need to go
through the expense and challenge of obtaining visas to most of the
Wikimania or other conference locations.

But hundreds - no, thousands - of dedicated contributors aren't in my/our
position.  Even if they are lucky enough to get a full scholarship, they
can't afford the time off work, or get the visa, or cover the upfront costs
of the travel experience that may or may not be reimbursed.  They tend to
be in locations far from wherever Wikimania may be, so paying out of their
own pocket is much more expensive than if they were living in Europe or
North America. Their voices are the ones we miss the most at our
conferences and Wikimanias - and their absence makes it that much more
challenging to help grow new communities.

There will be people who won't be at Wikimania this year because for
non-Europeans it is very expensive to get to and stay in Sweden.  If my
trip this year was not being subsidized (and I have written
responsibilities in exchange for that subsidy), I would not be going to
Wikimania this year; even a "rich Westerner" finds it too costly.

I don't think that the baseline conference fee is out of line with what
real expenses will be for Wikimania.  It's an expensive place and, even if
the university is substantially cutting its fees for food and room rentals,
it's still going to cost an awful lot of money.  In an ideal world,
everyone who wanted to attend would be subsidized, but I'm realistic enough
to know that if we as a movement were to do that, the conference would be
even more heavily weighted with voices from Europe and North America.

Risker/Anne



On Tue, 4 Jun 2019 at 00:29, Wilfredo Rodríguez  wrote:

> There must be a coherent explanation. It is possible that there is an
> alliance that we can not see between WMF and the university so that WMF
> receives the surplus in donations that will be cleanly used.
>
> On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 22:01 Paulo Santos Perneta, 
> wrote:
>
>> We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few
>> years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard
>> to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones
>> organized at a five star hotels.
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond <
>> kerry.raym...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>>> Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and
>>> organised events at others, I am well aware that many universities are
>>> short of cash and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I
>>> would not assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for
>>> Wikimania. A university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line
>>> with their own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding
>>> events at  a university does incur real additional costs to the university,
>>> such as cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge
>>> for their use.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Kerry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta
>>> *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
>>> *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) <
>>> wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is
>>> Now Open!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not
>>> "Wikimedia"
>>>
>>> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>>> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>>
>>> For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city
>>> like Stockholm, without a sc

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Wilfredo Rodríguez]

There must be a coherent explanation. It is possible that there is an
alliance that we can not see between WMF and the university so that WMF
receives the surplus in donations that will be cleanly used.

On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 22:01 Paulo Santos Perneta, 
wrote:

> We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few
> years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard
> to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones
> organized at a five star hotels.
>
> Paulo
>
> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond 
> escreveu:
>
>> Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised
>> events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash
>> and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not
>> assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A
>> university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their
>> own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at  a
>> university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as
>> cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their
>> use.
>>
>>
>>
>> Kerry
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
>> Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta
>> *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
>> *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) <
>> wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is
>> Now Open!
>>
>>
>>
>> Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"
>>
>> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>> For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city
>> like Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€,
>> which really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here,
>> corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum
>> wages, actually).
>>
>>
>>
>> 25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers
>> have to pay does seem quite obscene to me.
>>
>>
>>
>> If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and
>> parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this
>> years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree
>> that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year
>> wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>>
>>
>> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra 
>> escreveu:
>>
>> As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly
>> inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just
>> extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making
>> it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an
>> extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships
>> would enable greater participation from more communities.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:
>>
>> In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can
>> perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering
>> for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance,
>> Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that
>> we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.
>>
>>
>>
>> This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes,
>> Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I
>> can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than
>> 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full
>> experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know
>> where all this money will go.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>>
>>
>> *--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---Від кого:
>> "Isarra Yos" >Дата:
>> 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17*
>>
>>
>>
>> On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
>>
>> > You're claiming that this year is a higher 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

We are talking about a very dramatic increase in the fee in the last few
years, not about universities doing events for free. And it is quite hard
to understand how come an event on campus as a fee similar to the ones
organized at a five star hotels.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 22:55, Kerry Raymond 
escreveu:

> Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised
> events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash
> and expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not
> assume that being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A
> university *may *decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their
> own goals that they may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at  a
> university does incur real additional costs to the university, such as
> cleaning and security at a minimum, so it is not unfair to charge for their
> use.
>
>
>
> Kerry
>
>
>
> *From:* Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Paulo Santos Perneta
> *Sent:* Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
> *To:* Wikimania general list (open subscription) <
> wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is
> Now Open!
>
>
>
> Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia"
>
> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like
> Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which
> really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here,
> corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum
> wages, actually).
>
>
>
> 25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have
> to pay does seem quite obscene to me.
>
>
>
> If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and
> parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this
> years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree
> that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year
> wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.
>
>
>
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra 
> escreveu:
>
> As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly
> inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just
> extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making
> it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an
> extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships
> would enable greater participation from more communities.
>
>
>
> On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:
>
> In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can
> perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering
> for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance,
> Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that
> we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.
>
>
>
> This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm
> is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't
> really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50%
> more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.
>
>
>
> I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full
> experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know
> where all this money will go.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Mykola (NickK)
>
>
>
> *--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---Від кого:
> "Isarra Yos" >Дата:
> 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17*
>
>
>
> On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
>
> > You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't
>
> > think this is actually true. Some context:
>
> > - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
>
> > - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
>
> > - 2018: 275 USD
>
>
>
> 2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was
>
> fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost
>
> when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning
>
> was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the
>
> included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not
>
> much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not in

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Kerry Raymond]

Well, as someone who has worked at a number of universities and organised 
events at others, I am well aware that many universities are short of cash and 
expect to be paid by others to use their facilities so I would not assume that 
being “on campus” is a free or low-cost venue for Wikimania. A university *may 
*decide that an event is sufficiently in-line with their own goals that they 
may reduce/waive the cost, but holding events at  a university does incur real 
additional costs to the university, such as cleaning and security at a minimum, 
so it is not unfair to charge for their use. 

 

Kerry

 

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Paulo Santos Perneta
Sent: Monday, 3 June 2019 8:21 PM
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) 
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

 

Sorry, in the first sentence it should read "wikimania" , not "Wikimedia" 

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 11:19, Paulo Santos Perneta 
mailto:paulospern...@gmail.com> > escreveu:

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like 
Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which 
really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here, 
corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum wages, 
actually).

 

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have to 
pay does seem quite obscene to me.

 

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and parties 
- those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this years event - 
this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree that it is quite 
difficult to understand such an high fee in this year wikimania, where most of 
the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

 

Paulo 

 

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra mailto:gnanga...@gmail.com> > escreveu:

As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly 
inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just extend 
the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making it more 
accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an extra 250,000€ to 
collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships would enable greater 
participation from more communities.

 

On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko mailto:mycol...@ukr.net> > wrote:

In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can 
perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering for 
all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance, Montréal 
experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that we were in a 
centrally-located Sheraton.

 

This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes, Stockholm is 
an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I can't really 
understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than 50% more expensive 
than a Sheraton in Montréal.

 

I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full 
experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know where 
all this money will go.

 

Best regards,

Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
Від кого: "Isarra Yos" mailto:zhoris...@gmail.com> >
Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17

 

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
> You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't 
> think this is actually true. Some context:
> - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
> - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
> - 2018: 275 USD
 
2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was 
fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost 
when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning 
was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the 
included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not 
much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch 
being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, 
and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first 
place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may 
indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of 
fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have 
been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the 
Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't 
think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias 
were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.
 
For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:
 
2015: $95
2014: £50.00
2013: $45
2012: $35
2011: $45
2010: 30-40€
2009: $45
2008: $45
2007: $40-60
2006: $90
2005 I can't find

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

For us in Portugal joining wikimedia, even in a relatively close city like
Stockholm, without a scholarship stands at a minimum cost of 1000€, which
really is a prohibitive cost for the great majority of people here,
corresponding to way more than a regular full month wage (two minimum
wages, actually).

25% of that cost corresponding to fees that even wikimedia volunteers have
to pay does seem quite obscene to me.

If a significant amount of the cost is going to fancy luxury hotels and
parties - those last ones barred to wikimedians below 18 years, in this
years event - this really should be something to be reviewed. Also, I agree
that it is quite difficult to understand such an high fee in this year
wikimania, where most of the stuff seems to be organized on campus.

Paulo

A segunda, 3 de jun de 2019, 00:32, Gnangarra 
escreveu:

> As has in previous years been suggested if we want Wikimania to be truly
> inclusive and encourage more people to attend then the WMF should just
> extend the fundraising by a week and use that to subsidise the event making
> it more accessible to everyone. 1,000 particiants at 250€ is just an
> extra 250,000€ to collect, collecting enough to allow 200 scholarships
> would enable greater participation from more communities.
>
> On Mon, 3 Jun 2019 at 03:16, Mykola Kozlenko  wrote:
>
>> In 2015, 2017 and 2018 we had Wikimanias in really upscale hotels. I can
>> perfectly understand why renting conference rooms and arranging catering
>> for all participants in a Sheraton or a Hilton is expensive. For instance,
>> Montréal experience in 2017 was pretty much worse 233 USD indeed given that
>> we were in a centrally-located Sheraton.
>>
>> This year we are having a Wikimania on a university campus. Yes,
>> Stockholm is an expensive city, but Montréal is not really cheap either. I
>> can't really understand how a university campus in Stockholm is more than
>> 50% more expensive than a Sheraton in Montréal.
>>
>> I don't say I want these costs unbundled, I am happy to pay for the full
>> experience, but with a price tag that high I would really like to know
>> where all this money will go.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Mykola (NickK)
>>
>> --- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
>> Від кого: "Isarra Yos" 
>> Дата: 2 червня 2019, 18:19:17
>>
>> On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
>> > You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't
>> > think this is actually true. Some context:
>> > - 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
>> > - 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
>> > - 2018: 275 USD
>> 2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was
>> fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost
>> when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning
>> was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the
>> included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not
>> much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch
>> being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason,
>> and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first
>> place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may
>> indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of
>> fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have
>> been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the
>> Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't
>> think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias
>> were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.
>>
>> For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:
>> 2015: $952014: £50.002013: $452012: $352011: $452010: 30-40€2009: $452008: 
>> $452007: $40-602006: $902005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus 
>> organised a bit differently
>>
>> So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first
>> Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which
>> was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a
>> poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few
>> of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with
>> great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get
>> special support now to even register for the main event for what is
>> supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?
>>
>> 250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost
>> around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those
>> things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the
>> registration as well.
>>
>> -I
>>
>> https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registrationhttps://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registrationhttps://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration
>>  (and the same page
>> on 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Flight costs between Lisbon and Stockholm were indeed about 100€ many
months ago. However, when the scholarships were out, anyone receiving a
partial scholarship or wanting to go on their own anyway would have to pay
over 400€ already, just for the flight .

Paulo

A sábado, 1 de jun de 2019, 13:41, Tisza Gergő  escreveu:

> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
>> I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost
>> will not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely
>> be (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm
>> alone will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week
>> of accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at
>> least the same amount (if you go very low budget).
>>
>
> Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe,
> where flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in
> the immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go
> way cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city);
> if you actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs /
> etc, food costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of
> Stockholm as well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference
> fee would be about half of your total costs.
>
>
>> There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one
>> way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to
>> provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I
>> personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation
>> and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee
>> for all other participants.
>>
>
> So are we actually spending more on scholarships?
> There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of
> Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:
> - 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
> - 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...)
> per [2]
> - 2014: 109 per [3]
> - 2015: 110 per [4]
> - 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5]
> ([6] claims 99 full)
> - 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
> - 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
> - 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]
> So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset
> somewhat by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is
> not the case for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of
> scholarships tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find
> data on that.)
>
> [1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2012
> [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2013
> [3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2014
> [4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2015
> [5]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars#2019_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships
> [6] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2016
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Isarra Yos]

On 01/06/2019 19:44, effe iets anders wrote:
You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't 
think this is actually true. Some context:

- 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
- 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
- 2018: 275 USD


2016 is indeed when it first went up, but even then the 500€ value was 
fairly consistent with how much one could expect the whole thing to cost 
when including fairly decent food and accommodation. What was concerning 
was that then the cost stayed relatively high, without any of the 
included stuff - if the 250€ is only the registration price, there's not 
much to decouple. For instance, is there any food to not include? Lunch 
being included has pretty much always been standard, for good reason, 
and we're not doing breakfast and dinner for everyone in the first 
place, are we? (As I recall, 2015 did include dinner, though, which may 
indicate part of why it was also more expensive.) And even in terms of 
fanciness, I'm not sure how much value that has, or if they even have 
been meaningfully more so than they used to be. Comparing to the 
Wikiconference USA/NA events I attended some of the same years (I don't 
think any were over $50, definitely not more than $100), the Wikimanias 
were mostly just... bigger. Higher volume.


For reference, prior wikimanias cost the following for Wikimedians:

2015: $95
2014: £50.00
2013: $45
2012: $35
2011: $45
2010: 30-40€
2009: $45
2008: $45
2007: $40-60
2006: $90
2005 I can't find, but it was the first and thus organised a bit differently

So what happened? How is 250€ now not a lot of money? The first 
Wikimania I attended was in 2012 and my entire budget was $500, which 
was basically my holiday budget for the year. I was a student from a 
poor background, and a lot of our contributors are students. Quite a few 
of our contributors aren't exactly upper class, or from countries with 
great conversion rates. Should we really be requiring them to get 
special support now to even register for the main event for what is 
supposed to be a world-wide, inclusive movement?


250€ is a quite a lot of money. Other things to attend may still cost 
around the same or more, but if we also need to spend it on those 
things, we're not going to have that money left to spend on the 
registration as well.


-I


https://wikimania2015.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/wikimania-2014-registration-11063436035
https://wikimania2010.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Registration
https://wikimania2009.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration (and the same page 
on other years)

https://wikimania2006.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Registration=5931


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Kerry Raymond]

Indeed! It is Euro-centric thinking. If I booked a flight today to come to 
Wikimania, it would cost me AUD 2218 (USD 1539). If you look at the 
whole-of-event cost (that is, not worrying about who is paying for any 
particular component), then for an international event, the flights costs are 
the dominant cost for any destination you choose.

 

Regarding unbundling the coast, I would agree though that it should be possible 
to unbundle some of the costs. I know from running events myself that when 
using a hotel as the conference venue, that generally they want to do a package 
deal of room hire and catering. If you try to unbundle these costs to make the 
meals optional for some attendees, they will then price the separate components 
at a higher rate so that it becomes a financial disincentive to the conference 
overall to take that option. So that kind of unbundling is unlikely to work as 
it allows some people to opt-out and save money at the expense of those who 
choose to opt in (that is, it’s not neutral on other people if you opt out). 
But you can more easily make the offsite activities a separate charge as they 
are generally not bound up in the main venue deal, although again there may be 
economies of scale in the pricing for a larger number of guests or if you want 
exclusive use of the venue, you may have to commit to a certain number of 
people attending etc. So again it’s not a completely neutral matter but as the 
offsite parties are not the primary reason for attending Wikimaina, then such 
events can be more reasonably positioned as an “optional” extra without 
subsidisation from others. Also give  the wide range of people who attend 
Wikimania, I can imagine the off-site parties are not to everyone else’s taste 
in any case (as much as I enjoy a glass of alcohol, I realise that participants 
from other cultures/religions may not want to participate in a nightclub style 
party), so if we want Wikimania to be inclusive, perhaps we should make these 
events optional for that reason alone.

 

Kerry

 

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
effe iets anders
Sent: Sunday, 2 June 2019 5:44 AM
To: Tisza Gergő 
Cc: Wikimania general list (open subscription) 
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

 

 

 

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 5:20 AM Tisza Gergő mailto:gti...@gmail.com> > wrote:

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders mailto:effeietsand...@gmail.com> > wrote:

I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will not 
be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be (unless 
they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone will 
outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of 
accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at least 
the same amount (if you go very low budget). 

 

Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe, where 
flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in the 
immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go way 
cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city); if you 
actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs / etc, food 
costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of Stockholm as 
well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference fee would be 
about half of your total costs.

 

That depends what you're using as your base, of course. I'm trying to think a 
little beyond our traditional community, which is why I was talking about 
'people'. Even if we would take a highly Eurocentric approach and only think 
about Europeans without any visa requirements, living nearby airports that are 
well-connected to Stockholm (mind you, these are quite a few assumptions we're 
making), we would be talking about airfare of often more than $100, 
accommodation for $200 would still be on the low end of the spectrum (six 
nights, hostels cost $31 per night, although there are a few further away that 
cost less), you would still have to include all kinds of smaller expenses 
though (dinners that will definitely more expensive than at home. Are you 
planning to take public transportation or walk for a few hours each day? Will 
you join in evening events and buy a drink? Do you plan to get a data plan for 
your phone?) And let's not forget that you have to take a week off to be able 
to attend the conference and pre-conference. 

All in all, I am pretty confident that even for these well-connected Europeans, 
the conference fee will be a smaller part of the amount that traveling will 
cost them. Finding a cheaper hotel than the recommended hotel (at $115/night) 
would definitely do a good job at that.

 

 

There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one way 
would be to reduce the price even further for everyon

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Mykola Kozlenko]

Hello,
One point on 2018 scholarships: in 2017, a non-negligible number of Wikimedians 
(something between 10 and 20 I think) did not get Canadian visas. WMF decided 
to automatically grant them 2018 scholarships, basically re-using their 
scholarship budget. Removing this outlier, we should be consistently at 110-120 
scholarships per year since 2014 which makes sense.

On the main point of this discussion, 275 USD starts to be somewhat 
prohibiting. Personally in my case I had to fill in in a hurry as I absolutely 
wanted not to pay extra 100 USD for nothing. Yes, this is not that much 
expensive compared to professional conferences that are usually starting from 
1000 USD, but this is mainly a volunteer conference, and we are paying with our 
own money.

I would honestly be interested to know how this sum is spread between different 
budget lines. How much is spent on the venue, how much on lunches, how much on 
parties etc. For instance, I might have wanted not to pay for the party if it 
is worth over 100 USD, or not to pay for lunches if they are at 30 USD etc...

Best regards,
Mykola (NickK)

--- Оригінальне повідомлення ---
Від кого: "Tisza Gergő" 
Дата: 1 червня 2019, 14:41:14

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders  
wrote:
I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will not 
be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be (unless 
they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone will 
outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of 
accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at least 
the same amount (if you go very low budget). 

Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe, where 
flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in the 
immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go way 
cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city); if you 
actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs / etc, food 
costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of Stockholm as 
well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference fee would be 
about half of your total costs.
 
There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one way 
would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to provide 
help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I personally 
prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation and 
registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee for all 
other participants.

So are we actually spending more on scholarships?
There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of 
Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:
- 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
- 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...) per [2]
- 2014: 109 per [3]
- 2015: 110 per [4]
- 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5] ([6] 
claims 99 full)
- 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
- 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
- 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]
So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset somewhat 
by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is not the case 
for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of scholarships 
tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find data on that.)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2012
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2013
[3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2014
[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2015
[5] 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars#2019_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships
[6] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2016
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[effe iets anders]

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 5:20 AM Tisza Gergő  wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders 
> wrote:
>
>> I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost
>> will not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely
>> be (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm
>> alone will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week
>> of accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at
>> least the same amount (if you go very low budget).
>>
>
> Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe,
> where flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in
> the immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go
> way cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city);
> if you actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs /
> etc, food costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of
> Stockholm as well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference
> fee would be about half of your total costs.
>

That depends what you're using as your base, of course. I'm trying to think
a little beyond our traditional community, which is why I was talking about
'people'. Even if we would take a highly Eurocentric approach and only
think about Europeans without any visa requirements, living nearby airports
that are well-connected to Stockholm (mind you, these are quite a few
assumptions we're making), we would be talking about airfare of often more
than $100, accommodation for $200 would still be on the low end of the
spectrum (six nights, hostels cost $31 per night, although there are a few
further away that cost less), you would still have to include all kinds of
smaller expenses though (dinners that will definitely more expensive than
at home. Are you planning to take public transportation or walk for a few
hours each day? Will you join in evening events and buy a drink? Do you
plan to get a data plan for your phone?) And let's not forget that you have
to take a week off to be able to attend the conference and pre-conference.
All in all, I am pretty confident that even for these well-connected
Europeans, the conference fee will be a smaller part of the amount that
traveling will cost them. Finding a cheaper hotel than the recommended
hotel (at $115/night) would definitely do a good job at that.


>
>
>> There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one
>> way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to
>> provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I
>> personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation
>> and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee
>> for all other participants.
>>
>
> So are we actually spending more on scholarships?
> There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of
> Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:
> - 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
> - 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...)
> per [2]
> - 2014: 109 per [3]
> - 2015: 110 per [4]
> - 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5]
> ([6] claims 99 full)
> - 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
> - 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
> - 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]
> So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset
> somewhat by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is
> not the case for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of
> scholarships tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find
> data on that.)
>

(I should probably disclose that I'm a partial scholarship recipient,
although I doubt it would affect my argument if I weren't)
This focus on scholarships is not a new thing - I'm happy that the WMF has
chosen to support them for a long time now. And indeed there is a
significant bump from mostly European chapters that help volunteers to
attend (a big chunk of them being from their own country).

You're claiming that this year is a higher rate than usual, I don't think
this is actually true. Some context:
- 2016: 500 euro, but this included accommodation and full board
- 2017: 315 CAD (~233 USD)
- 2018: 275 USD

In that sense, this fee is quite in range from the past few years (I was
not motivated enough to go back to earlier years). Some years were indeed
cheaper, especially if located in a country with lower incomes, and when
the express purpose was to get more locals/regionals to attend (Mexico,
Hong Kong) that might otherwise not have been able to.

My point is: if we're not willing to spend even more donor money on this
conference than we already do, we need to make choices. You could choose to
make the conference less fancy (although the opportunities to cut costs are
limited in that field, I 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Tisza Gergő]

On Sat, Jun 1, 2019 at 1:12 PM effe iets anders 
wrote:

> I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will
> not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be
> (unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone
> will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of
> accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at
> least the same amount (if you go very low budget).
>

Those estimates are way off. Most of our volunteer base is in Europe, where
flight costs are typically below $100; you can find accomodation in the
immediate vicinity of the conference for $200 (and you can probably go way
cheaper with hostels, or by being in a more distant part of the city); if
you actually want to go very low budget and skip on restaurants / pubs /
etc, food costs are minimal (and obviously people do need to eat outside of
Stockholm as well, so it's not really an extra spending). So the conference
fee would be about half of your total costs.


> There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one
> way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to
> provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I
> personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation
> and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee
> for all other participants.
>

So are we actually spending more on scholarships?
There is no consistent reporting on scholarships (nor any other aspect of
Wikimania for that matter) but some wiki archeology gives:
- 2012: 87 full + 47 partial per [1]
- 2013: 62 full + 18 partial (which apparently somehow adds up to 86...)
per [2]
- 2014: 109 per [3]
- 2015: 110 per [4]
- 2016: 88 full + 35 partial + 6 additional (whatever that means) per [5]
([6] claims 99 full)
- 2017: 81 full + 17 partial per [5]
- 2018: 125 full + 16 partial per [5]
- 2019: 96 full + 20 partial per [5]
So it seems like the higher price of the conference was indeed offset
somewhat by a slightly higher number of scholarships in 2018, but that is
not the case for 2019. (Granted this is WMF only, and a significant part of
scholarships tend to come from affiliates, but it's even harder to find
data on that.)

[1] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2012
[2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2013
[3] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2014
[4] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars/2015
[5]
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Wikimania_scholars#2019_WMF_Wikimania_Scholarships
[6] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania/Scholarships/2016
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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[effe iets anders]

This is not a new or surprising discussion, and thanks for bringing it to
the table. While $270 (conference + preconference) is a lot of money, you
do get a 5-day conference with lunches, refreshments, reception and
probably a dinner or two. That sounds like quite a modest price, compared
to most other events of similar length. I suspect that each additional
attendee does not bring in any cash, or actually costs the organizers
money, overall.
I would even argue that for by far most people, the registration cost will
not be the limiting factor - other components of the trip would likely be
(unless they are local to Stockholm, maybe). The travel to Stockholm alone
will outweigh this fee by a factor of 2, maybe 4 for most, and a week of
accommodation with the remaining dinners will probably set you back at
least the same amount (if you go very low budget).

There are two ways that our movement can try to address this hurdle: one
way would be to reduce the price even further for everyone, the other is to
provide help for some people to overcome all these financial hurdles. I
personally prefer that we spend more on scholarships (travel, accommodation
and registration) rather than even further subsidizing the registration fee
for all other participants. And we do indeed spend quite an amount and
effort on making scholarships available to community members - without any
requirement to volunteer at the conference. Given a limited budget, I can
imagine that the organizers must make choices.

I'll let the organizers respond themselves what their actual reasoning was,
but given what I've seen of past Wikimania's and their budgets, I can't say
I share your suggested approach to resolving this tension.

Best,
Lodewijk

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 7:42 PM Isarra Yos  wrote:

> I'd really prefer people be volunteering for these things because they
> want to and they value what they're doing, not because they have to in
> order to do something else. It's good that those who do care to volunteer
> here don't need to pay the high fee on top of that, but it doesn't resolve
> the issue of such a high fee being there in the first place.
>
> -I
> On 31/05/2019 21:41, Jan Ainali wrote:
>
> If you volunteer for at least 8 hours, the conference pass is free:
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Volunteer
>
> /Jan
>
> 31 maj 2019 23:32:50 +02:00, skrev Isarra Yos 
> :
>
> Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable,
> especially for volunteers?
>
> Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after today,
> $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year was also
> similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias for Wikimedia
> contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the whole event - even
> Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation were included in the default
> ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket option skipping this that was still in
> the usual price range. Is there any chance we could bring this practice
> back? Or... something?
>
> This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the
> registration costs more than the plane ticket would), *a lot of us*
> probably aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most conferences,
> where attendees are being sent by their companies or organisation; many of
> us who would consider going are individuals. Not only do we not necessarily
> have any larger organisations to fund our attendance, we're largely not
> getting paid for any of this, either - we're donating our time to be a part
> of this movement, and now we're expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as
> community members, to attend an event that used to be specifically for the
> community?
>
> This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as it
> precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing what's up,
> unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things they're not sure
> about. And based on the conversations I've had with various newcomers over
> the years who have been drawn into such events (previous wikimanias,
> hackathons, other conferences) and been highly engaged and inspired by
> their experiences, this is apt to be a major loss.
>
> I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some
> people, the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally focussed on
> travel and accommodation costs for folks who would otherwise not be able to
> get there, not attendance costs for people who can get there just fine but
> would prefer to spend that 250€ on something else, like a couple of months
> of groceries. There wasn't a 'just cover the registration fee' option with
> the scholarship applications at all. Not that... there should be?
>
> Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?
>
> -I
>
> On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:
>
> Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period
> has been extended to May 31st! 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Isarra Yos]

I'd really prefer people be volunteering for these things because they 
want to and they value what they're doing, not because they have to in 
order to do something else. It's good that those who do care to 
volunteer here don't need to pay the high fee on top of that, but it 
doesn't resolve the issue of such a high fee being there in the first place.


-I

On 31/05/2019 21:41, Jan Ainali wrote:
If you volunteer for at least 8 hours, the conference pass is free: 
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Volunteer


/Jan

31 maj 2019 23:32:50 +02:00, skrev Isarra Yos :
Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable, 
especially for volunteers?


Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after 
today, $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year 
was also similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias 
for Wikimedia contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the 
whole event - even Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation 
were included in the default ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket 
option skipping this that was still in the usual price range. Is 
there any chance we could bring this practice back? Or... something?


This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the 
registration costs more than the plane ticket would), /a lot of us/ 
probably aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most 
conferences, where attendees are being sent by their companies or 
organisation; many of us who would consider going are individuals. 
Not only do we not necessarily have any larger organisations to fund 
our attendance, we're largely not getting paid for any of this, 
either - we're donating our time to be a part of this movement, and 
now we're expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as community members, 
to attend an event that used to be specifically for the community?


This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as 
it precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing 
what's up, unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things 
they're not sure about. And based on the conversations I've had with 
various newcomers over the years who have been drawn into such events 
(previous wikimanias, hackathons, other conferences) and been highly 
engaged and inspired by their experiences, this is apt to be a major 
loss.


I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some 
people, the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally 
focussed on travel and accommodation costs for folks who would 
otherwise not be able to get there, not attendance costs for people 
who can get there just fine but would prefer to spend that 250€ on 
something else, like a couple of months of groceries. There wasn't a 
'just cover the registration fee' option with the scholarship 
applications at all. Not that... there should be?


Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?

-I

On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:

Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird'
price period has been extended to May 31st! Details:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration

Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a
workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for
Submissions is NOW OPEN



On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva
mailto:icu...@wikimedia.org>> wrote:

Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):


Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on our
Eventbrite

page.

This discount pricing ends on May 24th so don’t delay!


Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.


For more information please visit:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration


Wikimania 2019 will be held at Stockholm University
, Sweden
, from 14th to 18th
August 2019.


The venue will host the majority of the conference,
hackathon, meetups, and pre-events.


We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to
register early and book their flight and travel as soon as
possible. If you have questions about visas, please visit our
wiki visa page .


If you have any questions with regard to the conference,
please contact:

wikimania-i...@wikimedia.org



Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a
workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for
Submissions is NOW OPEN

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Jan Ainali]

If you volunteer for at least 8 hours, the conference pass is free: 



/Jan
31 maj 2019 23:32:50 +02:00, skrev Isarra Yos :

> Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable, 
> especially for volunteers?
> 
> Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after today, 
> $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year was also 
> similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias for Wikimedia 
> contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the whole event - even 
> Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation were included in the default 
> ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket option skipping this that was still in the 
> usual price range. Is there any chance we could bring this practice back? 
> Or... something?
> 
> This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the 
> registration costs more than the plane ticket would), a lot of us probably 
> aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most conferences, where 
> attendees are being sent by their companies or organisation; many of us who 
> would consider going are individuals. Not only do we not necessarily have any 
> larger organisations to fund our attendance, we're largely not getting paid 
> for any of this, either - we're donating our time to be a part of this 
> movement, and now we're expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as community 
> members, to attend an event that used to be specifically for the community?
> 
> This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as it 
> precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing what's up, 
> unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things they're not sure 
> about. And based on the conversations I've had with various newcomers over 
> the years who have been drawn into such events (previous wikimanias, 
> hackathons, other conferences) and been highly engaged and inspired by their 
> experiences, this is apt to be a major loss.
> 
> I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some people, 
> the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally focussed on travel and 
> accommodation costs for folks who would otherwise not be able to get there, 
> not attendance costs for people who can get there just fine but would prefer 
> to spend that 250€ on something else, like a couple of months of groceries. 
> There wasn't a 'just cover the registration fee' option with the scholarship 
> applications at all. Not that... there should be?
> 
> Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?
> 
> -I
> 
> On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:
> 
> > Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period 
> > has been extended to May 31st! Details: 
> > 
> > 
> > Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or 
> > display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions isNOW OPEN 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva <> 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):
> > > 
> > > Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on ourEventbrite 
> > > page.
> > > This discount pricingends on May 24th so don’t delay!
> > > 
> > > Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.
> > > 
> > > For more information please 
> > > visit:
> > > 
> > > Wikimania 2019 will be held atStockholm University 
> > > ,Sweden 
> > > , from 14th to 18th August 2019.
> > > 
> > > The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon, meetups, 
> > > and pre-events.
> > > 
> > > We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register early 
> > > and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you have 
> > > questions about visas, please visit ourwiki visa page 
> > > .
> > > 
> > > If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please contact:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or 
> > > display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions isNOW OPEN 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager
> > > on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team
> > > --
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Isabel Cueva
> > > Event Program Manager
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Wikimedia Foundation 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Isabel Cueva
> > Event Program Manager
> > 
> > 
> > Wikimedia Foundation 

Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Isarra Yos]

Are there any plans to add ticket options that are more affordable, 
especially for volunteers?


Even with Early Bird discount, $270 is... a lot, frankly (and after 
today, $375). Prior to Montreal two years ago (Cape Town last year was 
also similarly expensive), the registration cost of Wikimanias for 
Wikimedia contributors was generally in the 30-50€ range for the whole 
event - even Esino Lario, where food and full accommodation were 
included in the default ticket, also had a 'simple' ticket option 
skipping this that was still in the usual price range. Is there any 
chance we could bring this practice back? Or... something?


This isn't even just that I can't afford this (which I can't - the 
registration costs more than the plane ticket would), /a lot of us/ 
probably aren't going to be able to. Wikimania isn't like most 
conferences, where attendees are being sent by their companies or 
organisation; many of us who would consider going are individuals. Not 
only do we not necessarily have any larger organisations to fund our 
attendance, we're largely not getting paid for any of this, either - 
we're donating our time to be a part of this movement, and now we're 
expected to pay hundreds of dollars, as community members, to attend an 
event that used to be specifically for the community?


This is especially going to be a major turnoff to any newcomers, as it 
precludes people just registering and checking it out, seeing what's up, 
unless they have a lot of money to throw around on things they're not 
sure about. And based on the conversations I've had with various 
newcomers over the years who have been drawn into such events (previous 
wikimanias, hackathons, other conferences) and been highly engaged and 
inspired by their experiences, this is apt to be a major loss.


I'll also note that while scholarships do resolve this issue for some 
people, the scholarship budget is limited, and also generally focussed 
on travel and accommodation costs for folks who would otherwise not be 
able to get there, not attendance costs for people who can get there 
just fine but would prefer to spend that 250€ on something else, like a 
couple of months of groceries. There wasn't a 'just cover the 
registration fee' option with the scholarship applications at all. Not 
that... there should be?


Basically, would it be possible to maybe get some more options here?

-I

On 24/05/2019 23:33, Isabel Cueva wrote:
Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price 
period has been extended to May 31st! Details: 
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration


Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a 
workshop, or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for 
Submissions is NOW OPEN 



On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva > wrote:


Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):


Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on our
Eventbrite
page.


This discount pricing ends on May 24th so don’t delay!

Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.


For more information please visit:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration


Wikimania 2019 will be held at Stockholm University
, Sweden
, from 14th to 18th August 2019.


The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon,
meetups, and pre-events.


We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register
early and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you
have questions about visas, please visit our wiki visa page
.


If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please
contact:

wikimania-i...@wikimedia.org 


Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop,
or display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is
NOW OPEN 



We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!



Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager

on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team



-- 
	*Isabel Cueva*

Event Program Manager
Wikimedia Foundation 



--
*Isabel Cueva*
Event Program Manager
Wikimedia Foundation 


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Re: [Wikimania-l] Wikimania 2019 Early Bird Registration is Now Open!

[Isabel Cueva]

Great News! The Wikimania discount registration 'early bird' price period
has been extended to May 31st! Details:
https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2019:Registration

Also, don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or
display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN



On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 10:22 AM Isabel Cueva  wrote:

> Attention Everyone (and please spread the word):
>
> Early Bird Registration is now open for Wikimania 2019 on our Eventbrite
> 
> page.
>
> This discount pricing ends on May 24th so don’t delay!
>
>
> Online registration will be open from today to July 30th, 2019.
>
> For more information please visit:
> https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/Registration
>
> Wikimania 2019 will be held at Stockholm University
> , Sweden
> , from 14th to 18th August 2019.
>
> The venue will host the majority of the conference, hackathon, meetups,
> and pre-events.
>
> We would like to encourage all speakers and attendees to register early
> and book their flight and travel as soon as possible. If you have questions
> about visas, please visit our wiki visa page
> .
>
> If you have any questions with regard to the conference, please contact:
>
> wikimania-i...@wikimedia.org
>
> Don’t forget: If you want to make a presentation, run a workshop, or
> display a poster during Wikimania, the Call for Submissions is NOW OPEN
> 
>
>
> We hope you can join us in Stockholm this summer!
>
>
> Isabel Cueva, WMF Event Program Manager
>
> on behalf of the Wikimania ‘19 Organizing Team
>
>
> --
> *Isabel Cueva*
> Event Program Manager
> Wikimedia Foundation 
>
>

-- 
*Isabel Cueva*
Event Program Manager
Wikimedia Foundation 
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