On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Ken Hirsch wrote:
> Jim Choate writes:
> >
> > It's not I who is doing the misreading. I sent this along because I don't
> > know -your- level, which considering your understanding of
> > 'completeness'...
>
> Peter Fairbrother has said nothing inaccurate about completeness,
Jim Choate wrote:
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>
>> Completeness has nothing to do with whether statements can or cannot be
>> expressed within a system.
>>
>> A system is complete if every sentence that is valid within the system can
>> be proved within that system.
>
> I
Jim Choate writes:
>
> It's not I who is doing the misreading. I sent this along because I don't
> know -your- level, which considering your understanding of
> 'completeness'...
Peter Fairbrother has said nothing inaccurate about completeness, whereas
your statements about completeness having to d
On Wed, 27 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
> A "non-mathematical" "easy to read" primer (quotes from Springer-Verlag). I
> don't have a copy. If Alan Parkes says Godelian completeness is other than
> the definition above then he is wrong - possible, he is a multimedia studies
> teacher, and af
Jim Choate wrote:
> Para-consistent logic is the study of logical schemas or
> systems in which the fundamental paradigms are paradoxes. It's a way of
> dealing with logical situations in which true/false can't be determined
> even axiomatically.
Most paraconsistent logics deal with paradoxes, bu
On Wed, 20 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
> Completeness has nothing to do with whether statements can or cannot be
> expressed within a system.
>
> A system is complete if every sentence that is valid within the system can
> be proved within that system.
Introduction to Languages, Machines
Jim Choate wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
>
>> Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!)
>>
>> When we say "complete", are we talking about completeness in the Godelian
>> sense? According to Godel, and formal system (except for the possibilit
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Ben Laurie wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
> > What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
> > para-consistent logic as well
>
> It applies to "any sufficiently complex axiomatic system". Allegedly.
Actually it doesn't, it applied to 'complete' systems. There
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
> Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!)
>
> When we say "complete", are we talking about completeness in the Godelian
> sense? According to Godel, and formal system (except for the possibility of
> the oddballs mentioned
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
> used for useful computation will suffer from incompletenenss, so I would
> assume "para-consistent logic" would fall under that category (is that
> similar to fuzzy logic?).
Not really. Para-consistent logic is the study of logical schemas or
systems in
I would however, reverse your two definitions, I think the word belief suggests the
more rational, evidence based mental model, faith is a subset belief that requires no
evidence.
All of us have beliefs (under my schema above) that are evidence based (we believe in
the atomic model). Often our
On Friday 15 November 2002 00:41, you wrote:
> Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for someone to believe in
> something (religion) so intensely as to shun all moral explanation against
> this hypothesis and to persist in those beliefs without any proof is akin
> to schizophrenia. But
On Thu, 14 Nov 2002, [iso-8859-1] Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves wrote:
>
> The religious person is always battling against reality wich with a minimum
> of inteligence from the observer always bring doubts on the truth of his
> faith.
>
> It's a state of mind wich can only be compared with ment
Tim May wrote:
> There are a lot of Godel anecdotes to tell. I never met him.
>
> Two things about his theory:
>
> 1. There's a more powerful (IMNSHO) formulation of it in terms of
> algorithmic information theory, usually associated with Greg Chaitin
> but also drawing on the AIT work of Kolmo
Jim Choate wrote:
>
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
>
>> Jim Choate wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
>>> para-consistent logic as well
>
>> However you can have eg arithmetics without Peano counting, and so on, and
>> there are
> From: Andri Esteves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 01:29:26 +
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
>
> On Friday 15 November 2002 00:41, you wrote:
>> Indeed, I've heard the same. One could argue that for
> From: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 14:31:41 +
> To: Mike Rosing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
>
> On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you w
On Friday 15 November 2002 01:43, Sam Ritchie wrote:
> Actually, hehe, I've made this comparison before, of religion to a disease.
> (first off, let me clarify that I have nothing against anyone's religion!
> I'm looking at this from an outsider's perspective, and harbor no biases.)
> The torah, fo
> It's a state of mind wich can only be compared with mental ilness...
> (I've read that there are even some neurological similarities between the
> faithful and the mentaly ill)
The belief (faith) center is somewhere in the frontal cortex and that mutation
was essential for development of the c
able, physical degradation in the brain (a Schizophrenic's brain can
be identified in autopsies).
From: Sam Ritchie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Andri Isidoro Fernandes Esteves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Mike Rosing
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: Cypherpunks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
On Thursday 14 November 2002 03:50, you wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
> > That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
> > contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's
> > no room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious "beliefs
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Sam Ritchie wrote:
> That's the whole deal with the bible, and its various internal
> contradictions. If anything can be proven true in the bible, then there's no
> room for faith anymore, which nullifies religious "beliefs"; and if anything
> can be proven false, then there's
> From: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 12:12:34 -0500
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
>
> "All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful,
> but I'
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
>
> >
> > What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
> > para-consistent logic as well
>
> And I replied:
>
> No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit
> Godel's theorem, but app
Jim Choate wrote:
What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
para-consistent logic as well
It applies to "any sufficiently complex axiomatic system". Allegedly.
Cheers,
Ben.
--
http://www.apache-ssl.org/ben.html http://www.thebunker.net/
"There is no limit to what
t who the heck knows?
From: Jim Choate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 07:27:44 -0600 (CST)
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Peter Fairbrother wrote:
> Jim Choate wrote:
>
> >
> > What I'd like
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 09:12 AM, Tyler Durden wrote:
"All religions are complete systems. Some people consider them useful,
but I'm not sure it classifies as "the real world".
:-)"
I've wondered about that...I suspect that if God exists, then He is
true but unprovable in any usef
Jim Choate wrote:
>
> What I'd like to know is does Godel's apply to all forms of
> para-consistent logic as well
And I replied:
No. There are consistent systems, and complete systems, that do not admit
Godel's theorem, but apparently not a system that is both (although even the
last is sub
del's biographer, Godel at one point passed around a
proof of the existence of God! (But towards the end of his life he also
started wearing a surgical mask everywhere and became intensely
germaphobic...)
From: Mike Rosing <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The
On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
> Damn what a pack of geeks! (Looks like I might end up liking this list!)
It's full of nut cases too :-)
> I have not, however, heretofore considered that there could exist systems
> that had some form of completeness built in. My intuition (which is eas
On Tuesday, November 12, 2002, at 11:04 AM, Tim May wrote:
(There are famous examples of using Hamiltonian cycles for giving zero
knowledge proofs. I wrote one up here for the list about 10 years
ago...it may be findable by searching on the right keywords. But using
one of the NP-complete
> On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
>
> > As for "Godelian intractability", I didn't see that as necessarily an issue
> > of complexity. Godel showed that given any formal system, there are
> > statements that will certainly exist that are true but unprovable from
> > within that system (ma
for a long
time and yet never know if it's actually "difficult" or not.
Again, sorry to all for being a little chatty and clumsy at this point.
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002
Tyler Durden wrote:
> (I believe that the non-existence of the "last" prime number is also
> unprovable.)
Could you give some details/ a ref please?
The usual proof by contradiction is easy and well-known. Suppose there is a
"last" prime. Generate a list of all the primes sooner than or equal to
On Tue, 12 Nov 2002, Tyler Durden wrote:
> As for my background it's Optics/Physics/EE, and for the last 8 years worked
> with Erbium Doped Fiber Amplifiers, DWDM and SONET (ie, optical telecom).
> (Interestingly, my work in Telecom did once cause me to enter the only joint
> classified/unclassif
Tim wrote:
> It would be nice to have crypto
> systems based on at least problems which have been shown to be
> NP-complete.
Even here, one has to be careful. The knapsack cryptosystem, based on the
NP-Complete problem Subset Sum, crashed and burned spectacularly a number
of years back.
The w
On Tuesday, November 12, 2002, at 10:22 AM, Tyler Durden wrote:
Well, my main point was that the fact that we are not certain about
the difficulty in factorization is not necessarily due to our current
lack of knowledge about the issue (and to be rectified one day as we
look back and laugh at
ist and
have been identified...was factorization chosen because the encryption
process used very little hardware (back when that mattered)?
From: Tim May <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2002 09:48:27 -0800
On Tuesday, Nove
On Tuesday, November 12, 2002, at 07:13 AM, Tyler Durden wrote:
This may be true, but the conclusion that might easily be reached
isn't. According to the number theorists (particularly post-Godel),
factorization may easily be one of those things that...
1) Is inherently dificult
2) and the fac
erages very deep connections between the
brain and the quantum world...this would always be beyond even very powerful
silicon (though non-Quantum) machines.
From: Mike Duvos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: The End of the Golden Age of Crypto
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 16:45:21
rrect, but which seemed impossible to arrive at without knowing it in
the first place.
> "Delete PGP, Win a Free Turkey,"
Har.
> Yes, folks. It's the End of the Golden Age of Crypto.
Well, I'm not quite ready to run out and close the patent office yet.
We still have
crypto may be
fundamentally misplaced.
3. The public won't use crypto anyway, so why do we even
bother? Anything encrypted stands out in the bitstream like a giant
red flag with a smiling Saddam on it.
Yes, folks. It's the End of the Golden Age of Crypto. Time to move on to
the Golden Age of something else.
--
Mike Duvos $PGP 2.6 Public Key available $
[EMAIL PROTECTED]$via Finger $
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