hat I was opposing a method to disambiguate. If so, you
misunderstood completely. Hell, I screamed about the need for
disambiguation a while back but most people here said it wasn't an issue to
be concerned about, so I gave up on and quit actively monitoring this
Oops! Oh well, nothing said that I wasn't going to present to the
Microformat community eventually!
-Mike
> -Original Message-
> From: Mike Schinkel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:43 AM
> To: 'Microformats Discuss'
> Sub
o use it on their website, but I'll let the
website try to finish explaining to you as it eventually needs to speak for
itself.
Thanks in advance for your consideration.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolic
t; contents?
> >
> I know what you're on about because Web Developer already
> has a View Document Outline
> http://chrispederick.com/work/webdeveloper/
Interesting.
> The biggest issue at hand is if this stuff is happening
> after the page finished loading, that the user
Paul Wilkins wrote:
> Mike Schinkel wrote: Printable version please! Ane that
> doesn't take 12 pages to print... (He also grumbles about
> lack of back button in presentation but glad the
> presentation was not 96 pages...)
>
> The slideshow was built using S5, A Simple
Andy Mabbett wrote:
> http://exmaple.com/opensearch.xml
I just researched this and it appears that Amazon/A9 are *not* using
Well-Known Names but instead using autodiscovery on a element[1].
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
h
link
> isn't just pointing to any old resource on the web, but
> that it is in fact pointing to a more detailed hCard.
I think that makes a huge amount of sense. Determining authoritativeness is
hard, leave it to another initiative and get almost everything else needed
w/o it. Gre
ame, e.g. Ryan King, not
> to add anything to the actual URL.
Cool!
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It never ceases to amaze how many people will proactivel
rd is infuriating in that
respect albeit only someone ignorant of its excesses would use it to
generate HTML for web publishing.) Yes, I'd rather have the WYSIWYG, but
only if it comes w/o the frustrating limitations. Which is why I still do
most of my editing on Notepad (well, Notepad2 th
ly reserved for that purpose.
I was not aware of [1], as evidenced by my proactive use of mysite.foo [2].
Still, one problem with using example.{tld} is it makes it confusing when
your example uses two sites, i.e. mysite.foo vs yoursite.foo is clearer than
example.com vs. example.net.
BT
. Or said
another way, trying to resolve a problem whose proper solution lies in a
different domain.
I've actually recently been thinking about a related question. i.e. what is
a person's canonical URL? Google "Roy T. Fielding", "Bill Gates", "Linus
Torvalds",
hanks.
Don't know why that didn't cross my mind. I just first read about it last
week!
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It never ceases
vicon.ico. Infact it doesn't need to be .ico format at
> all.
Hehe. Gotta love ya, MS! ;-P
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It never ceases t
ust that it is
> not black and white :)
heh. For someone who generally never sees anything but shades of grey, I
certainly would be a hypocrite if I were to disagree with you there! :)
> It depends on the context and the
> way the technology has been developed, and its level of
> maturity
ter" and mere "users" where the "better" ones are the only ones who are
going to get to publish rich content on the Internet, everyone else be
damned.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.
n me afoul of the microformat
police since rel="ahah" hasn't even been officially proposed yet and I
didn't bring it up on [uf-new]... ;-P
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It ne
o get the major
browsers to add (some) support for certain standards, and they numbered far
less then 10. There are hundreds of web apps for content publishing with
tens of millions of server installations; I don't see them being 'fixed' any
time soon. :-(
FWIW.
--
-Mike Schinkel
htt
Names besides
these:?
http://mysite.foo/robots.txt
http://mysite.foo/favicon.ico
http://mysite.foo/w3c/p3p.xml
http://mysite.foo/sitemap.xml
http://mysite.foo/crossdomain.xml
http://mysite.foo/smbmeta.xml
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschin
ative one? Sorry, but I've
read the proposal and related emails several times and I'm still confused.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
http://atlanta-web.org - http://t.oolicio.us
"It never c
ents are invisible metadata that are used
appropriately on the web today.
It really makes more sense to look at the use-case rather than to issue a
blanket edit of prohibition. FWIW.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
"It never ceas
e bureacratic options could easily
> create a mess of burdensome procedures, but there's no reason
> we would have to be naïve or choose the obvious.
I just wanted to mention that I *strongly* agree with Joe on his comments
that I included above. It's those reaso
amples that couldn't work with
> the rel- tag suggestion in that rejection.
FWIW, that rel-tag suggestion was unclear to me. But my question was just
to make sure you provided real world examples as it appeared you were
advocating for a "nsfw" tag with providing examples.
s
> on or hovers over a reference to a footnote, brings it up in
> a floating window, for instance.
Exactly. The only use-case I forsee is for blog footnotes. There may be
others, but in the spirit of going with existing markup, using for a blog is
what I'm currently[1] doing.
--
blithfield/plants20060815.htm>
>
> including an instance where a footnote is referenced form two
> different points in the text.
Thanks. I guess what I'm asking is if there is interest from others to take
footnotes through the "official microformat process?"
--
x27;t have much bandwidth to devote lots of time to this issue (it's
tactical for me, not strategic), so if others aren't interested and it
doesn't require too much debate then I'd like to see what we can do. If not,
I'll just do what works for me and not worry about it for
guess my question
was off-topic, but I was pretty sure someone here would know and wasn't sure
exactly where the question would have been more appropriate.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
__
udity" and "violence" might be a start. Are there other classes you are
concerned about?
BTW, there is are a few others to specifically consider ;-)
[1]
[2]
[3]
[4]
IMO, censorship is a very serious issue[5] and we should always err on the
side
drilling down into them all, my memory was that none of them used
the element as it not visible; am I incorrect on that?
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
[1] http://www.iana.org/assignments/link-relations.html
_
> ratings with links, and many people are publishing "NSFW"
> warnings.[1]
Can you please provide some examples of real world publishing behavior?[1]
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
ou
really should propose it and/or make it clear that it is your own proposal
and not one that has been through the W3C's process. Also, I think it could
really benefit by going through the process (but if it already has, I'm
surprised given the ambiguities in the spec.)
--
-
Does anyone know if there is a canonical List of @rel attribute
values?
Are there any standards, conventions, etc. anywhere?
Thanks in advance.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
There they go again, using the name Microformats w/o permission... Time to
beat them with a wet noodle! ;-)
http://www.stuffandnonsense.co.uk/archives/hcup_microformat.html
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org
depends on the nature of the metadata.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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ump truck. Sure you could use it,
but it would take orders of magnitude more time and get the car really,
really dirty. :) Said another way. classified ads are optimized for the
listing, ecommerce product information need to be optimized for the product
informa
enomenon, not a spam prevention measure.
That is only true when humans are doing the updating. It is not necessarily
true if the pages are generated from a database and the database is what
gets updated.
It also does not consider non-visible metadata that is created by apps such
as CMS, Wikis, Bl
Siegfried Gipp wrote:
> Am Samstag, 16. Dezember 2006 08:31 schrieb Mike Schinkel:
> > You are making an invalid assumption which is that
> > I'm concerned about my markup. No, I'm not. I've
> > concerned about the need for a standard to be
> > created
eone to talk down to me in a public forum based on their *assumption*
that they know what *I* am thinking.
A more respectful approach would have been far more productive.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesi
he context of microformats; #2 and #3 probably wouldn't
> be (but that doesn't mean that they're not worth considering
> in their own right, somewhere else).
Well, I'm going to try #2 anyway. :)
I think it will be the easiest way.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikesch
erious eff-ing chaos, and I declare that will be a Bad
Thing(tm) for the web.
But again, I'm no longer advocating Microformats change. I'm working on some
other ideas.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
need to
propose it.)
What's needed is agreement here so that many people here can go there to
tell Ian that it's important, and why. Otherwise he'll say "It's not clear
to me that that is important" and it won't happen.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.m
behaviour. :)
The former has more bearing on what the community will embrace than the
latter.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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ts could be quite useful
> for other types of web resources, too.
Agreed.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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be a part of microformats' adoption.
> My understanding is many of the tools out there are already
> working on some sort of microformats support, this is just
> another example of it.
Then there is a need for a transiti
Joe Andrieu wrote:
> Standards aren't meant to "evolve". The are revised.
> Updated. Changed.
> Explicitly. Intentionally. And with clear versioning. The nature of a
> standard is to be /standard/ across contexts, especially time.
Excellent analysis, the entire th
zes the need to change where possible. For example,
> IIRC, all semantic lists are valid XOXO.
Quoting from Tantek "...microformats do not try to alter people's publishing
behavior in an unnatural way..."
> > 22.) Constrained to enhancing known use-cases.
> I've recen
Benjamin West wrote:
> Aren't claims that you are respected by ___ kind of arrogant?
That made me laugh! :)
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
___
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micr
> 100% compliant code should work with 100% compliant parsers.
> That seems self-evident. Does it make sense to allow
> compliant parsers to ignore compliant microformats?
+1
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
sate when
presented with ambiguity. Machine (at least currently) do not.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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http://microformats
ools can be developed around that
body of knowledge, and people will evangelize and a large number of people
will implement.
But that said, it's now clear to me that the microformat brand is not going
to address my concern. No need to discuss any more; it's a dead
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
S. Sriram wrote
> What you have is a 'classic branding problem' ...
Excellent analysis. Al Ries is my hero. :)
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://ww
Ciaran McNulty write:
> On 12/14/06, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Just curious, what did you mean by "double entendre markup?"
> It means 'double meaning'.
A "double entendre" often refers to something with a negative
meani
ion of profile URIs, I'd recommend work on
> filling in the XMDPs for every microformat, because it
> wouldn't make much sense to require publishers to point to
> profiles which don't exist.
I do agree that (something like) this is needed. One of my pet peeves is
specs t
be more palatable, and once I get it clarified enough to write
down I will propose it to the Microformat community.
> Now you can go crazy with your double entendre markup
Just curious, what did you mean by "double entendre markup?"
--
-Mike
ds of Bloggers and blog-related services
18.) Emphasizes general purpose needs
19.) Focuses on existing content publishing models
20.) Aims to avoid changing publishing behavior
21.) Envisions exposing existing content semantically
22.) Constrained to enhancing known use-cases.
--
-Mike Schinkel
principles and the process." Either all semantic class names are
microformats or there is a difference between microformats that follow the
rules and those that don't. You can't have it both ways.
Now I don't care strongly enough about this to continue the debate, but I
will
me to
spend 5 minutes each time trying to track down that URL!
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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http://microformats.org/ma
Scott Reynen wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2006, Mike Schinkel wrote:
> > Maybe prefixes aren't the
> > answer, but I haven't heard an alternate presented.
> You're presenting an alternative right here:
> > What about adding additional standard attributes to all ele
eme.
Great analysis. I plan to come back to your analysis in the near future.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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http://
As an aside, at the risk of starting a firestorm, it would be nice if there
were a way to let the user decide his one relationship, i.e. maybe
John Smith
Where "" is of course the person's one identifier. Basically this would
allow people to create a folksonomy. It could even require one of
opose that we add to XFN "respect" in the
professional category, or some other similar term which the community
decides is more appropriate, and increment the version to 1.2.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
___
s
an inherent likelihood of name clashes that can render an HTML content
author unable to use two conflicting microformats in the same document
unless of course Profile URI resolves those ambiguities. I do look forward
to your clarification on Profile URIs.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.c
e!)
So I repeat: How then can we achieve a disambiguation conventions to keep
official Microformats from conflicting with "proto- Microformats?"
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
___
mic
ML extension mechanism" and I reverted
to calling it "semantic markup embedded in HTML." Maybe we could call it
SemMarE? (yeah, I suck a making up names too. ;-)
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
tion RE:prefixes is
that it is just begging to have the Microformat community splintered for
lack of a viable solution to a real problem. Maybe prefixes aren't the
answer, but I haven't heard an alternate presented.
Respectfully,
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschink
s applicable to all elements, i.e.
abbr, href, name, rel, rev, scope, size, src, type, and value.
I hadn't had the chance to ask the uf-discuss list about this, so now is a
perfect time. What about adding additional standard attributes to all
elements. Would it be helpful?
--
-Mike Schi
Benjamin West wrote:
> I'm not quite sure what you mean here. Is there a difference
> between lowercase microformats and uppercase microformats?
lowercase microformats = unofficial semantic markup embedded in HTML
uppercase microformats = "Official" Microformat
--
Or is it the view of the Microformat community that Microformats will keep
it's house clean and, because Microformats are the "anointed" ones that it
just "sucks to be the other guy?"
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.or
;t care what we call them: "techniques" or "Microformats" or anything
else for that matter. All I care is that we get a simple disambiguation
strategy included in the recommendation.
--
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
_
xtension mechanism?)
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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of the following if attached to "professional":
Respect, admire, impressed by,awed, revere, worship, idolize, iconize. If
would be nice if there was a way to extend professional respect and
admiration.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
h
mats conflict. I
view creating an architecture that is likely to creat conflicts like this as
A Very Bad Thing(tm), especially when it would be so easy to resolve at this
point in Microformats' evolution.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
oach to web architecture is clearly not
acceptable, don't you agree?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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Ironically, this sounds like another real-world (i.e. not hypothetical)
example of the need to provide a way to differentiate microformats.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
er or not people use
> it in place of the alternative meaning.
So, are you saying it would have been better not to have had the W3C specify
HTTP 1.1 and HTML 4.01 and instead let market forces prevail?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
S. Sriram wrote:
> They would simply co-exist. Period
My only response to your comments is that I strongly disagree with you, but
as you appears you have a similar conviction it would be a waste of time to
debate it further.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
h
ollision such as the
one above, which is an example of a planned use.
But maybe Profile URIs can solve this. Can you please explain how, using my
example?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
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resource, please tell me what would happen if I
decided to start marking up documents, as an example, using the class
"directory" and "license", for purposes other than rel-directory and
re-license? How could my markup and those Microformats co-exist in the same
HTML document?
oformats use of a scarce resource,
similar to how the DNS service is needed to ensure that there is only one
website representing the domain microformats.org. If the above (or something
else that also addresses the issues) was agreed and adopted, Microformats
would become a powerful force of good
rge to address how to scale the process
because Microformats squat on a scare resource (names in classes.)
With great power comes great responsibility; Microformats has a
responsibility to the web at large to ensure Microformats can scale, but all
I've seen is resistence to even consider
For those on this list who are not following [whatwg], here is an
interesting thread about inability to use Microformats:
http://listserver.dreamhost.com/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2006-December/00
8462.html
I wonder if his issues can be addressed?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com
Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> What about:
>> http://www.example.com/wibble/71194301X";>
>> which could be a URL on the same site as the citation,
>> or on a trusted bibliographic website.
Agreed, but is there the latter?
-Mike Schinkel
http://
s as me being unsupportive. On the
contrary, I am a strong advocate to get website owners to put metadata in
their URLs and to document that metadata. However, until we have solid
sources of URLs with documented metadata, we should probably all play
smartly by the rules as specified by the W3C, a
skeptical we can rely on
>> > parsing a URL fo extracting a DOI/ISBN/etc.
Have you looked at the ISSN URN (RFC 3044)?
http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3044.txt
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
___
mic
Thanks for the article.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Andy
Mabbett
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 10:39 AM
To: Microformats Discuss
Subject: [uf
st
by http://theRyanKing.com/";> Ryan King .
*INSERT FLAME HERE*
I don't want to say that the blog post annoys me, I want to say that the
commentors on the blog post annoys me. :-) Thoughts on that usage?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.w
to taxonify
product information in order to automate the business and improve the
company's website, this is what I think is needed. Now I haven't tried to
reconcile any of this to hlisting or anything else more than just a cursory
glance.
I look forward to everyone's thoughts and in
Frances Berriman wrote:
>> On 11/17/06, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Andy Mabbett wrote:
>> >
>> > >> c/f recent discussion about uF mailing lists, and my comment:
>> > >> For example, several academic and pro
omer, likewise, for mars/ luna), but do
>> not have the time to follow a general mailing list; indeed, a
>> couple asked me specifically if I would set up a separate
>> mailing list for the subject.
Funny how we get to have deja vi all over again, eh? ;-)
ere has been no related-guidance prior to this
email. As sich I do not appreciate being chastized in a public forum for
voilating your choice of how you would like things to be handled when your
guidance on how to handle the situation was given in retrospect.
Respectfully,
-Mike Schinkel
http://
eas that it appears you
want to address.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tantek Ç
elik
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 1:22 PM
To: microformats-discuss
Subje
r we
could just fuggetaboutit.
;)
Chris
On 11/7/06, Mike Schinkel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> that would make it unlikely that they could "sue"
> anyone since
>
> Anybody can sue anyone for anything and hence eat up lots of lawyer bills.
> Whethe
; it. I don't even know if that would work, IANAL.
>
> -Colin
>
> On Nov 6, 2006, at 3:36 PM, Mike Schinkel wrote:
>
> > Ouch. Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial
> > entities lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
> >
>
he whole MicroFormat
concept. Microformats will be nowhere nearly as useful I as first assumed it
to be.
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blogs/
http://www.welldesignedurls.org/
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan
King
Sent: Monda
Ouch. Sounds like a trademark fight might occur, as commercial entities
lawyer's tend to recommend that kind of thing...
-Mike Schinkel
President; Guides, Inc.
http://www.guidesinc.com
(404) 474-8948
(404) 276-1276 cell
(404) 474-8949 fax
skype: mike.schinkel
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Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't you have to include white-space
for a visible display anyway? i.e.
Mr.
John
Q.
Public,
M.D./>
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.co
Chris:
>> I mean, once you're into personal preferences,
Just a point of note, I brought my preferences up only to show that there
were counter preferances and that one-sided preferences shouldn't be the
driving factor. Which was a much more verbose way of saying what you just
said.
>> But rat
.
>> Mailing lists also allow you to use an already established "identity" --
your email. On a forum, you have to create a completely new web presence and
identity.
I don't see why one would have to create a completely new identity. I
almost always use "MikeSchinkel
>> I just don't want to be checking a mailing list, wiki AND a forum.
On that point I've proposed integrating the mailing list AND the forum, to
give people the option of which of the two to use. So you wouldn't have to
check all three.
-Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ett>> Granted, mailing lists aren't perfect, but we have one now
and it works.
A vBulletin forum can be set up in a two hours max. I'll run it if that's
an option so it would only be my time.
Colin Barrett>> Forums also require a bit more administration
Colin B
ability to process Microformats
abstractly so that new ones can be added after IE8 has shipped? And if that
is possible, wouldn't it make sense for us as a group to go ahead and
specify a standard way to define that abstraction?
-Mike Schinkel
http://www.mikeschinkel.com/blog
http://www.welld
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