On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:22:25 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
A group of (a particular amount of) U+0020 characters is visually
indistinguishable from a U+0009 character, when the default semantics
are applied to each.
Hmmm. I'm not sure there actually *is* such a thing as default
semantics for
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 6:48 PM, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote:
If editors were to standardise on the convention display a
HORIZONTAL TAB character as visibly distinct from a sequence of
spaces (e.g. by shading the background a different colour, or overlying
it with an arrow)
Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info:
* editors don't handle tabs correctly
But you said yourself:
I'm not sure there actually *is* such a thing as default semantics
for tabs.
What is correct handling of ASCII TAB characters in a text file?
The unix tradition is to let the TTY interpret the
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 7:09 PM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
The unix tradition is to let the TTY interpret the TABs. Utilities such
as ed, cat, diff or gcc don't interpret or process TABs in any
way but simply output them together with the rest of the text.
Not quite; tools like
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com:
Not quite; tools like diff that put a character at the beginning of
the line are likely to be tab-aware,
No, just tried it again: diff outputs tabs as tabs.
$ diff abc def
1,2c1,2
abc
abc
---
def
def
where
On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 9:13 PM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com:
Not quite; tools like diff that put a character at the beginning of
the line are likely to be tab-aware,
No, just tried it again: diff outputs tabs as tabs.
$ diff abc def
1,2c1,2
Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info writes:
On Tue, 08 Jul 2014 11:22:25 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
A group of (a particular amount of) U+0020 characters is visually
indistinguishable from a U+0009 character, when the default semantics
are applied to each.
Hmmm. I'm not sure there
Dan Sommers d...@tombstonezero.net writes:
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
[…] a poor design decision (a line beginning with U+0020 SPACE is
semantically different from a line beginning with U+0009 CHARACTER
TABULATION) can be irrevocable – the syntax can't be
On Saturday, July 5, 2014 5:15:32 AM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
(By the way, outside of the USA, flashlights in the rest
of the English- speaking world are usually called
torches, so called because, like the old-fashioned
burning torch, they provide light.)
Well Steven all i can hope is
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs.
I recently converted from tabs to spaces. I probably still have some
code that uses tabs, but most of my personal stuff has been converted.
I like
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote:
I like tabs. Tabs work better for me than spaces, because I know how
to use them. Also, some make tools insist on tabs.
Those tools are just as broken as the ones that only work with spaces.
Fortunately, I can't even
In article mailman.11557.1404674726.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs.
I recently converted from tabs to
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 1:41 AM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Well Steven all i can hope is that one day you and i will be
working on a project together, and you will ask me for a
touch, and when i return with a petrol soaked rag burning
on the end of twig and proceed to
Dan Stromberg drsali...@gmail.com writes:
But I finally acknowledged that some very smart people don't
understand tabs, or don't want to learn how to use them.
One day, you may reach the further realisation that those same very
smart people *do* understand tabs, and *do* know how to use them —
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
The makefile syntax is one of the excellent examples of why it's a
terrible idea to use tab characters in source code.
Hmmm... I'm not sure that conclusion follows. I think that makefile
syntax is an example of why it is a terrible idea to
On Mon, Jul 7, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
The story of makefiles is a warning of the dark side to release early,
release often, and the dangers of using alpha software in production:
[quote]
Why the tab in column 1? Yacc was new, Lex was
On Mon, 07 Jul 2014 11:00:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
The makefile syntax is one of the excellent examples of why it's a
terrible idea to use tab characters in source code. It's also an
excellent example of how a poor design decision (a line beginning with
U+0020 SPACE is semantically
On Jul 4, 2014, at 11:29, Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote:
On 04/07/14 07:55, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this
On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Of course, I'm anxiously await my friend to ask for a drop
light -- oh boy, that will be fun! :^)
Just wait till you get into theatre, and people start asking for
parcans, domes, bubbles, gobos, gels, and workers.
Rick Johnson wrote:
Why is a handheld light
called a flashlight? It does not flash,
According to Wikipedia, originally it did:
Early flashlights ran on zinc–carbon batteries, which could not provide a
steady electric current and required periodic 'rest' to continue functioning.
Because
On Sat, 05 Jul 2014 20:57:14 +1200, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Rick Johnson wrote:
Why is a handheld light called a flashlight? It does not flash,
According to Wikipedia, originally it did:
Early flashlights ran on zinc–carbon batteries, which could not provide
a steady electric current and
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 19:47:45 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:
[A continuation of my last reply...]
Here is a recent situation that occurred to me that showcases the
tendency of humans to carelessly bind illogical terms to common objects,
I think you mean the tendency of certain people to go off
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
which allow each viewer to view the code in his or her level
of indention,,, however, i cannot justify using a tab as a
replacement for a space. Tabs
In article mailman.11525.1404586681.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
which allow each viewer to view the code in
On 2014-07-05 19:57, Ian Kelly wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Rick Johnson
rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com wrote:
Strangly, I rather fancy the idea of using tabs in code,,,
which allow each viewer to view the code in his or her level
of indention,,, however, i cannot justify using a tab as
On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and
On 05/07/2014 23:03, Michael Torrie wrote:
On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 4:57 AM, Ian Kelly ian.g.ke...@gmail.com wrote:
I find it a little curious that nobody ever seems to advocate the use
of vertical tabs instead of repeated newlines. It should offer the
same benefit as horizontal tabs, namely that one could then
independently configure
On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:27:59 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
How often do you ever have multiple consecutive blank lines? My
newlines are either single (line end) or in pairs (one blank line),
and I don't remember having anything else (at least, not
intentionally). Greater separation than a
On Sun, Jul 6, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Dan Sommers d...@tombstonezero.net wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jul 2014 09:27:59 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
How often do you ever have multiple consecutive blank lines? My
newlines are either single (line end) or in pairs (one blank line),
and I don't remember having
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
Disadvantages of tabs:
- Many standard Unix/Linux/POSIX tools have a hard time dealing with tabs.
I call such tools *broken*,
They're not broken, they're just using a different set of
conventions. Unix traditionally uses tab characters as a
form of space compression.
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining things
up in a tabular fashion in your source
wxjmfa...@gmail.com:
Le vendredi 4 juillet 2014 08:35:04 UTC+2, Gregory Ewing a écrit :
The truly broken tools IMO are things like mail handlers that shrink
away in terror when they see a tab and remove it altogether. There's
no excuse for that, as far as I can see.
Yes, and you can extend
On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 7:31 PM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long
ago, having little feeling for some dolt on
a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to
edit my code.
And yet, you did not give up an even more insane line length limit, in
In article c1n08qfhvj...@mid.individual.net,
Gregory Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
As long as *all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs.
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime.
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
adds features
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since
On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one
On 04/07/2014 15:54, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Grant Edwards invalid@invalid.invalid:
Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.
Often one person writes the code and
On 04/07/2014 14:59, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote:
On 07/04/2014 04:47 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
As long as*all* your tools follow that convention, everything
is fine. The problems arise when you mix in tools that use
different conventions.
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs.
Mark Lawrence breamore...@yahoo.co.uk:
Only for the very old fashioned Python 2, the modern Python 3 has
booted mixed tabs and spaces into touch.
Since Python 3 (alas!) got into the business of booting, it should have
booted tabs altogether.
Marko
--
Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
row. I'll just configured Sublime to insert spaces instead of tabs. Problem
solved.
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 12:12 PM, Mark Lawrence
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
snip
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
Definitely.
On 04/07/2014 16:57, Emile van Sebille wrote:
On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille em...@fenx.com wrote:
snip
Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
counts as eight spaces and can be
Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
working systems? :)
Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
In article mailman.11497.1404486912.18130.python-l...@python.org,
George Silva georger.si...@gmail.com wrote:
Isn't this an old discussion? Just configure your editor properly. In my
team we all use spaces, but I'll be damned if I need to type 12 spaces in a
row. I'll just configured Sublime
On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:19:24 -0700, Maciej Dziardziel wrote:
Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
working systems? :)
Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.
Incorrect.
[steve@ando ~]$ python3
Python 3.3.0rc3 (default, Sep 27 2012,
I assume any sane editor has similar functionality. I see my coworkers
using vim, sublime, eclipse, and X-code. They all appear to do these
things, and I would thus classify any of them as sane editors. I'm sure
there are others. If the tool you're (in the generic sense of you)
using
On 04/07/14 07:55, Gregory Ewing wrote:
Steven D'Aprano wrote:
That's exactly the problem with tabs - whatever you think your code
looks like with tabs, other people will see quite different picture.
Why do you consider this a problem?
It's a problem if you try to use tabs for lining
On 4 July 2014 15:54:50 BST, Marko Rauhamaa ma...@pacujo.net wrote:
Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align
perfectly,
and the code runs as expected.
If using vim, set list and listchars, you get to
In article mailman.11507.1404498596.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
If
On 04/07/2014 20:04, Roy Smith wrote:
In article mailman.11507.1404498596.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Lie Ryan lie.1...@gmail.com wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to
Lie Ryan wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that regard.
I also happen to think that recommendation is
Roy Smith wrote:
The problem is, tools always get mixed. I use emacs. The next guy uses
vi. Somebody else uses Sublime. The list goes on and on. You will
never control what tools other people use.
Yes, but my point is that none of the tools are broken,
they're just incompatible.
--
Greg
On 2014-07-05 11:17, Gregory Ewing wrote:
PEP8 suggests using this style of method invocation:
obj.method(foo,
bar,
baz)
which is an effect impossible to do correctly with tabs alone.
Yes, PEP 8 is self-contradictory in that regard.
I also
On Thursday, July 3, 2014 12:31:04 PM UTC-5, Tobiah wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces snip
I'm saddened that every one of these little tabs versus
spaces arguments revolve more around selfishness and less
around an understanding of what a tabs and spaces
actually *are*,
[A continuation of my last reply...]
Here is a recent situation that occurred to me that showcases
the tendency of humans to carelessly bind illogical terms to
common objects, thereby creating a inverse esoteric of
ubiquitous illogic, in this case, the term: flash-light.
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify. The sole thing you get with spaces as
far as I can tell, is that someone loading the
code into Notepad will still see a 4 character
indent. That may be true, but that same person
is going to
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify.
1) PEP 8 is meant to be guidelines, *not* a set of hard-and-fast rules.
2) Tabs let different people display the indents at
In article mailman.11462.1404408676.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs.
[...]
Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
unification comes down.
There are so many battles to fight that
Tobiah wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify. The sole thing you get with spaces as
far as I can tell, is that someone loading the
code into Notepad will still see a 4 character
indent. That may be true, but that same
On 07/03/2014 10:46 AM, Tim Chase wrote:
Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming
more optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others
say about the 80 char line length?
Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
unification comes down.
I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of
Hello,
On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 03:38:27 +1000
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify.
1) PEP 8 is meant to be guidelines,
On 2014-07-03, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
tabs. Boss want's us to unify. The sole thing you get with spaces
as far as I can tell, is that someone loading the code into Notepad
will still see a 4 character indent.
Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming
more optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others
say about the 80 char line length?
Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
unification comes down.
I'm not sure you'll get a whole lot of PEP8 is optional or
obsolete, though
On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
difficult time editing the code.
That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit prefectly.
Not so for tab-indented
On 07/03/2014 12:44 PM, Simon Ward wrote:
On 3 July 2014 18:31:04 BST, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I
prefer tabs. Boss want's us to unify.
This isn't worth arguing about.
How point of view changes things.
Anyway, I
On 3 July 2014 18:31:04 BST, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent. I prefer tabs. Boss want's us to
unify.
This isn't worth arguing about. Pick a convention, it's probably going to be a
compromise, get used to it. PEP8 is as good a base
On 07/03/2014 12:40 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
difficult time editing the code.
That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit
Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long ago, having little
feeling for some dolt
Same to you.
Haha, the language was too strong. The code I'm talking about is
only going to be seen by a small group of programmers. The current
trio has all been here for over 20 years. I'd be more
On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go. nothing to quibble or worry about. Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly.
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 10:31:04 -0700, Tobiah wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
tabs. Boss want's us to unify.
Point out to your boss, and your co-worker, that PEP 8 *explicitly*
states that it is not compulsory except for the standard library, and
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:02 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
As I understand it, Unix coders tend to prefer spaces, and Windows users
tend to be more comfortable with tabs. This isn't a hard-and-fast rule,
you'll find plenty of exceptions, but it seems to me that
On Thu, 03 Jul 2014 21:07:28 +0300, Paul Sokolovsky wrote:
Hello,
On Fri, 4 Jul 2014 03:38:27 +1000
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 3:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent. I prefer
tabs. Boss
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Summing up: if you care about other human beings, use spaces. If you
don't care about other human beings, you may use tabs, but other human
beings surely will take how you treat them into account ;-).
In article mailman.11478.1404437416.18130.python-l...@python.org,
Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 4, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Steven D'Aprano
steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote:
Summing up: if you care about other human beings, use spaces. If you
don't care about other
On Jul 3, 2014 10:31 AM, Tobiah tshep...@rcsreg.com wrote:
Just need ammo for when the hammer of code unification comes down.
One issue that I've encountered in the past (one of the reasons outside of
pep8) that I switched to spaces is when working with libraries other than
your own. If you want
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