If the state sponsored chess or other meaningful activity during the release time, then there would be parents complaining about discrimination because their students who were released for religious training are missing out on some instruction. If the state continued classroom instruction, then t
What happened to Sunday School? Parents don't bring their kids there
so they churches want the captive audience. When I was a kid we had
"Wednesday School" -- Wed. morning release time -- with about double
the attendance as at Sunday School -- even worse ratio during hunting
season, of course
-Original Message-
From: Lupu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:50 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
Released time has several problems in addition to trapping the left-
behind students in a dead hour (Rick,
And I will end by saying that the non-theists in one sense are right
about lack of intelligibility (most theists do not really claim to
understand what God is, thus the term mystery); so one person's lack of
intelligibility is another person's mystery. Yes, the problem of
suffering is real, a
In a message dated 2/19/2005 11:17:43 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The
perspective I mention need not and should not suggest that there is no
humanist non-theistic basis for loving human beings. What makes up the
"image and likeness of God" is lovable apart fro
The perspective I mention need not and should not suggest that there is
no humanist non-theistic basis for loving human beings. What makes up
the "image and likeness of God" is lovable apart from theistic language.
The theist would say that the non-theist account is incomplete.
[EMAIL PROTECTE
In a message dated 2/18/2005 11:42:10 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
A
theistic democrat could believe that human beings are made in the image and
likeness of God, and that they deserve to be loved because of this and in
specific cases are loved because God is see
<>
Yes, as in Thomas Jefferson's plan for public education in Virginia. A plan
that placed the burden of funding education on the public, the education of
every child, all the way through the primary grades.
After that public funding for the education of a meritorious few, private
funding for
Everything Michael Newsome says could be true. But why the persistent failure
to account for the overwhelming competitive advantage obtained through the 1-2
punch of compulsory attendance (not compulsory learning or compulsory
education, we should note) and confiscatory taxation, without relief
Mark's perspective is not the only theistic perspective. A theistic
democrat could believe that human beings are made in the image and
likeness of God, and that they deserve to be loved because of this and
in specific cases are loved because God is seen in them, i.e., as a part
of their essence
There was a time -- say, 1776 or so -- when there was widespread agreement that education was a virtue of itself. There is probably still widespread agreement that literature, math, geography and history are useful, and there's no inherent reason kids who don't participate in released-time program
In a message dated 2/18/2005 3:19:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
loving others because
of God's love for you and because God loves them as well, etc.
I find Mark's remark
to be committed to an instrumental love of others, a love deriving from
the relat
I, of course, agree with Tom that true school choice
is the real solution to the culture wars being fought
in government schools. Only school choice affirms
religious liberty, freedon of thought and belief, and
tolerance for all children. And only it avoids all
"captive audience" issues.
But I sti
& Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are ample days a
PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are a
Yes, it does seem a bit ridiculous to have released time chess club or swimming lessons as opposed to 4 p.m. Thursday afternoon chess club or swimming lessons and likewise for sectarian out-of-school activities.
Frances R. A. Paterson, J.D., Ed.D.
Associate Professor
Department of Educational Le
support a particular political agenda that finds favor
with a majority of the Court. Each takes care of the other in its own
fashion.
-Original Message-
From: Steven Green [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:26 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subj
ven though I do
> not worship it.)
>
>
>
> Mark S. Scarberry
>
> Pepperdine University School of Law
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Marty Lederman
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:38 AM
> To: Law &
OTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject:Re: 21st Century Zorach
Send reply to: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
<mailto:religionlaw-
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<mailto:religionlaw-
[EMAIL PROT
gh I do
> > not worship it.)
> >
> >
> >
> > Mark S. Scarberry
> >
> > Pepperdine University School of Law
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Marty Lederman
> > [m
Suppose instead of defending a Zorach program in terms of accomodation,
a school board says that religious education in specific religious or
ethical traditions is valuable and arguably best taught by believers in
the relevant tradition. At the same time it does not believe chess is as
valuable
> From: Marty Lederman
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 11:38 AM
> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
>
>
>
> A small clarification: The Constitution does not,
> as such, prohibit the
&
s for Law Academics
Subject: Re: 21st Century Zorach
A small clarification: The
Constitution does not, as such, prohibit the teaching in public schools of
most "values" that are central to, and derived
from, religion. See, e.g., Bowen v. Kendrick, 487 U.S. at 612-13,
621. Wh
In a message dated 2/18/2005 2:51:07 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If it is
a constitutionally permissible policy judgment by government actors to take
into account the religious needs of the people, then as long as
accommodation is made for all religious adhere
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ed, would you reconsider the form of your question. I support
toleration and accommodation of religious needs of students penned in
the government schools/corrals. In the Islamic context, I have
publicly expressed the view that schools should accommodate stud
I would be very receptive to an argument, under the
Free Speech Clause and the principle of equal access,
that dissenting parents should have the right to
demand that their children be released to take part in
any type of released time program, whether religious
or secular.
The solution to the pr
Further, the goal of accommodating religion simply can not justify a
religion only release time program. I support religiously exclusive
accommodations when there is some reason not to open the class of
accommodated individuals to include non-religious individuals. And often
that is the case. B
Ed, would you reconsider the form of your question. I support toleration and accommodation of religious needs of students penned in the government schools/corrals. In the Islamic context, I have publicly expressed the view that schools should accommodate students' percieved need for time to sto
Accommodation is only a legitimate argument or concern if the state
is creating a burden on religious freedom. But there is no conflict
between compulsory education and religious education, because
there are ample days and hours in which parents are free to
educate their children in the ways o
my children, or who "lack[s] skills necessary to do
so."
- Original Message -
From: "Scarberry, Mark" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'Law & Religion issues for Law Academics'"
<religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 2:0
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Isn't there something to be said for accommodation? Here comes
big old bully State, grabs parents by the lapels, and threatens life,
liberty and property unless child is put in a school setting from age 5
to as late as age 20, for as many as 7 to 8 hours a day
Alan is correct about the need for non-religious alternatives. Good
News was premised, in part, on the fact that the immediately
after-school time was available to a host of groups (though no other
group had exercised that right). As Doug recommended, release time
should occur after the schoo
schools. If this reading is
correct, then Zorach itself is the very case that
McConnell conceded would be unconstitutional.
- Original Message -
From: "Lupu" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Law & Religion issues for Law Academics"
<religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu>
Sent
In a message dated 2/18/2005 1:30:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In addition to Marty and Marc's point about the lack of constructive programs for students who do not participate, isn't there also a problem with release time programs that are limited exclusively to religi
University School of Law
-Original Message-
From: Lupu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 10:50 AM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
Released time has several problems in addition to trapping the left-
behind students
Feb 2005 13:00:39 EST/EDT
Date sent: Fri, 18 Feb 2005 10:13:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Rick Duncan
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject:RE: 21st Century Zorach
Send reply to:
ge-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Duncan
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:19 PM
To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
It seems to me that if there is a problem with modern
"released time" programs, the problem
t; Marc Stern
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rick Duncan
> Sent: Friday, February 18, 2005 12:19 PM
> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
>
> It seems
on issues for Law Academics
Subject: RE: 21st Century Zorach
It seems to me that if there is a problem with modern
"released time" programs, the problem is not with the
releasing of students whose parents request a release,
but rather in not providing something to do for the
kids whose
It seems to me that if there is a problem with modern
"released time" programs, the problem is not with the
releasing of students whose parents request a release,
but rather in not providing something to do for the
kids whose parents don't wish them to be released.
I don't know the facts of the ca
aw
School
727 E. Dean Keeton St.
Austin, TX 78705
512-232-1341
(phone)
512-471-6988
(fax)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marty
LedermanSent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:09 PMTo: Law
& Religion issues for Law AcademicsSubject: 21st Century
for the third year. They said they never have
heard anybody say anything mean to the students who do not attend.
"They're missing a lot of good stuff," said Olivia Pyanoe, who gave a
short speech to the School Board in support of the classes. "I told them it's
good to go. So
Especially under the state regulations supporting the No Child Left Behind Act, any program that leaves kids twiddling thumbs instead of taking AP biology is probably suspect, and perhaps illegal.
When I attended schools in Utah, which had probably the most extensive released time programs, the
Dahlia Lithwick in Slate on current released-time
programs in Virginia and elsewhere: http://slate.msn.com/id/2113611/.
The U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit
recently upheld a New York released time program, on the authority of
Zorach, even though the children remaining in the
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