Re: [whatwg] HTML5 competing with XML

A clean way to insert extraneous elements into SGML is to use NOTATION entities. This does not work for HTML and it has never worked, although TBL did have such an idea for images at the very beginning. It cannot be done because it is extremely inconvenient for the author/publisher and very insec

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

As the Eolas or RIM cases show, patent trolls can wait for a very long time until they are sure that their victim has no way out. It does not prove that Theora is clean that Google has not been sued yet. IMHO, Chris

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

Audible mouse feedback is an OS thing, not an HTML thing. I would rather have programmatic access to the MIDI synthesizer rather than be able to simulate it with a beep. How do you detect that the client mixer is too slow? Why can't you just get the premixed jingles from the server? Isn't the readi

Re: [whatwg] Session history

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Boris Zbarsky wrote: > Ian Hickson wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Olli Pettay wrote: > > > [22:59]I'm trying to understand the "Each browsing context, > > > including > > > nested browsing context, has a distinct session history." > > > [23:00]but in practice if go(-1) i

Re: [whatwg] Fragments included in Application Cache master entries

The problem I'm seeing is not with URLs listed in the manifest, but rather for URLs added to the Application Cache because they were navigated to and pointed to an existing manifest. I think the following excerpt is the relevant part of the spec: Master entries > Documents that were added to the

Re: [whatwg] Session history

Ian Hickson wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Olli Pettay wrote: [22:59]I'm trying to understand the "Each browsing context, including nested browsing context, has a distinct session history." [23:00]but in practice if go(-1) is called in a iframe (and it hasn't been navigated from the original

Re: [whatwg] on bibtex-in-html5

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Julian Reschke wrote: > Ian Hickson wrote: > > > > So far based on my experience with the Workers, Storage, Web Sockets, > > and Server-sent Events sections, I'm not convinced that the advantage > > of getting more review is real. Those sections in particular got more > > re

Re: [whatwg] Issues with Web Sockets API

On Fri, 26 Jun 2009, James Robinson wrote: > > 0) postMessage() looks as if it is intended to mimic > MessagePort.postMessage(), but the arguments and error conditions are > different. While it would be conceptually nice to treat a web socket in > the same way as a message port, it's not possi

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

> > Could you elaborate on what your use cases are? Is it just the ability to > > manually decode audio tracks? > > > > I actually have thought about this. Having an ability to post-process, > mix, or generate audio content manually is useful for certain classes of > games and applications. > >

Re: [whatwg] Fragments included in Application Cache master entries

Actually, I believe the spec does address the question in the following passage (this is in the manifest parsing algorithm): > If mode is "explicit" Resolve the first item in tokens, relative to base URL; ignore the rest. > If this fails, then jump back to the step labeled "start of line". >

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

On Jul 6, 2009, at 6:08 PM, Ian Hickson wrote: On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: This is on the list of things to consider in a future version. At this point I don't really want to add new features yet because otherwise we'll never get the browser vendors caught up to implementi

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

Ian Hickson wrote: On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: Ian Hickson wrote: On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: This is on the list of things to consider in a future version. At this point I don't really want to add new features yet because otherwise we'll never

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: > Ian Hickson wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: > > > > This is on the list of things to consider in a future version. At > > > > this point I don't really want to add new features yet because > > > > otherwise we'll never get the

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

Ian Hickson wrote: On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: This is on the list of things to consider in a future version. At this point I don't really want to add new features yet because otherwise we'll never get the browser vendors caught up to implementing the same spec. :-)

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Aaron Boodman wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Aaron Whyte wrote: > >> When a page is loaded from an AppCache, even when online, external > resources > >> such as images will not be loaded at all. >

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

> Whatever those issues are that you're referring to, they need to be fixed in > SVG already. Creating a new set of "well-defined" behaviours in can > only add more work. If the new "well-defined" behaviours fail to match the > behaviour SVG requires, then the situation will be even worse. feImag

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: > > > > This is on the list of things to consider in a future version. At this > > point I don't really want to add new features yet because otherwise > > we'll never get the browser vendors caught up to implementing the same > > spec. :-) > > Consid

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Hans Schmucker wrote: > > > > If we add filters to , I would expect to be defined in a way > > that doesn't leave edge cases undefined. > > But for all practical purposes, that would be what we'd do if we just > said "just use your usual SVG filter system", That's possible, I

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and

Ian Hickson wrote: On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Charles Pritchard wrote: I'd like to see support added to the tag (it's as natural as ). elements can be painted onto elements already; did you have something more in mind? This is sufficient. can be used with the drawImage tag, and orig

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:38 PM, Hans Schmucker wrote: > I simply think that when using SVG filters, we are much more likely to > add a lot of these "border-cases" where browsers behave subtly > different. We already have that problem with SVG in general and it's > really holding SVG back. Whate

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

> If we add filters to , I would expect to be defined in a way that > doesn't leave edge cases undefined. But for all practical purposes, that would be what we'd do if we just said "just use your usual SVG filter system",

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Hans Schmucker wrote: > > I simply think that when using SVG filters, we are much more likely to > add a lot of these "border-cases" where browsers behave subtly > different. We already have that problem with SVG in general and it's > really holding SVG back. If at all possi

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

*sigh* I hate it when I start sounding whiny and I probably did in the previous posts. I'll try to sum it up again without the whining sound. I simply think that when using SVG filters, we are much more likely to add a lot of these "border-cases" where browsers behave subtly different. We already

Re: [whatwg] Session history

On Thu, 2 Jul 2009, Olli Pettay wrote: > > [22:59]I'm trying to understand the "Each browsing context, > including > nested browsing context, has a distinct session history." > [23:00]but in practice if go(-1) is called in a iframe (and it > hasn't > been navigated from the origi

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 1:47 AM, Robert O'Callahan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Hans Schmucker > wrote: >> >> I should really add one point. The Canvas spec, above all, is >> predictable. You pretty much know exactly what you'll get when you >> perform certain actions. > > Like arcTo?

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 7:30 PM, Joshua Cranmer wrote: > Perhaps what could break the deadlock would be Apple conceding to > implementing Theora, or Mozilla conceding to implementing H.264. In either > case, the decision to implement would most likely be a result of market > pressure, not some arcan

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Hans Schmucker wrote: > I should really add one point. The Canvas spec, above all, is > predictable. You pretty much know exactly what you'll get when you > perform certain actions. Like arcTo? > Relying directly on SVG filters makes things > harder to understa

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:52 AM, Hans Schmucker wrote: > It may just be me, but I think that the success of Canvas, which is > way ahead of HTML5 in general, is largely due to the fact that it's > pretty much standalone. You don't have to read through hundreds of > pages of other documentation, yo

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Hans Schmucker wrote: > > About interoperability: At least for me Canvas support seems very stable > across browsers, which is why I'm comfortable asking for the next step, > as long as including it doesn't change compatibility with existing JS > code and wouldn't require ne

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

I should really add one point. The Canvas spec, above all, is predictable. You pretty much know exactly what you'll get when you perform certain actions. Relying directly on SVG filters makes things harder to understand and predict. A flat, stripped-down API on the other hand could provide the same

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

> I think in practice if people have declarative filter needs, they'll just > use SVG. But that said, filters are indeed something we should look at in > a future version. Right now, though, I'd rather we let the browser vendors > get interoperable on what exists already in the spec. Often, you ha

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

Kartikaya Gupta wrote: I'm not sure whether specs can create demand, and frankly, I find it somewhat irrelevant to the point at hand. The fact is there is already demand for a single encoding format that will be compatible with as many browsers as possible. The only question is what that forma

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, 7 Jul 2009, Hans Schmucker wrote: > > > > Doing filters in is an interesting idea, but I think that it > > is probably too early to add it. We have dozens of feature requests > > for the next version of already. > > > > For what it's worth, you can do filters manually using getImageData

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

> Doing filters in is an interesting idea, but I think that it is > probably too early to add it. We have dozens of feature requests for the > next version of already. > > For what it's worth, you can do filters manually using getImageData() and > putImageData(). But if we begin with a more decl

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:15 AM, Robert O'Callahan wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:21 AM, wrote: >> >> On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM, hansschmuc...@gmail.com> wrote: >> > SVG Filters are a relatively easy spec, where the most important parts >> > can be implemented in a matter of hours. >> On J

[whatwg] Fragments included in Application Cache master entries

The current behavior in Webkit is for URL fragments to be stored in the URLs for master entries. I believe this to be a bug in Webkit, but cannot determine from the spec if this is or not. Example: 1. Navigate to: http://www.thecssninja.com/demo/offline_webapp/#foo 2. Go offline 3. Do a browser r

Re: [whatwg] HTML5 competing with XML

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Anton Frattaroli wrote: > > Allowing XML namespaces to be "inserted" into HTML5 is a neat feature, > but challenges its definition as a subset of XML. As others have noted, HTML5 in text/html isn't XML. If you want to use HTML5 with XML you have to use XHTML5, which does requ

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 hansschmuc...@gmail.com wrote: > > Aside from drawWindow, we are currently unable to build a processing > chain that does include filters, other than applying a filter to the > result rendered by the canvas via foreignObject. Doing filters in is an interesting idea, but I th

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Kartikaya Gupta wrote: > > Seriously? If I were to declare that I, as a browser vendor, will not > support anything in HTML5 that wasn't in HTML4, would you actually > remove all the new additions from the HTML5 spec? Not immediately, but if you had notable market share and

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:21 AM, wrote: > On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM, hansschmuc...@gmail.com> wrote: > > SVG Filters are a relatively easy spec, where the most important parts > can be implemented in a matter of hours. > On Jul 6, 2009 10:54pm, Robert O'Callahan wrote: > > Speaking as an imp

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Aaron Whyte wrote: >> When a page is loaded from an AppCache, even when online, external resources >> such as images will not be loaded at all. >> If foo.com has an image http://bar.com/img.png"; />, then accord

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: > > The workaround is for the gmail to download the images to gmails > servers and then serve them from a google domain. This isn't just an email problem. It'll also affect RSS readers, document editors, blogging tools, and other tools where

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM, hansschmuc...@gmail.com> wrote: SVG Filters are a relatively easy spec, where the most important parts can be implemented in a matter of hours. On Jul 6, 2009 10:54pm, Robert O'Callahan wrote: Speaking as an implementor of SVG filters, I don't believe you :-).

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

Couple of comments... 1) Aaron's comment was not about caching them at all, it was about referring to them from a cached application and having them load via the network as usual. "Step 5" gets in the way of that. 2) The spec already allows for cross-origin caching, they can be explicitly listed

Re: [whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:09 AM, wrote: > SVG Filters are a relatively easy spec, where the most important parts can > be implemented in a matter of hours. Speaking as an implementor of SVG filters, I don't believe you :-). Am I the only one seeing any benefit for this or does anybody else thin

Re: [whatwg] DOMTokenList feedback

On 7/6/2009 9:08 AM, Kristof Zelechovski wrote: Regarding DOMTokenList, why not: contains(""): true add,remove,toggle(""): no effect? That could be an option. There is already a INVALID_CHARACTER_ERR exception thrown if the token contains spaces. So I think it would be consist

Re: [whatwg] HTML5 competing with XML

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 2:47 PM, Thomas Broyer wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Anton Frattaroli wrote: >> Mixing markup languages also makes the DOCTYPE declaration pretty much null >> and void.  What’s the point of a DTD if you’re going to add in other DTDs? > > There's no DTD for HTML5, s

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Aaron Whyte wrote: > When a page is loaded from an AppCache, even when online, external resources > such as images will not be loaded at all. > If foo.com has an image http://bar.com/img.png"; />, then according > to the steps in > http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-ap

Re: [whatwg] HTML5 competing with XML

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 9:17 PM, Anton Frattaroli wrote: > I just read about how other markup languages (e.g. MathML, SVG) will be > implicitly namespace’d when put into an appropriate tag here: > > http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-July/020740.html > > Allowing XML namespaces

[whatwg] HTML5 competing with XML

I just read about how other markup languages (e.g. MathML, SVG) will be implicitly namespace'd when put into an appropriate tag here: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-July/020740.htm l Allowing XML namespaces to be "inserted" into HTML5 is a neat feature, but challen

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

Yup... the source of grief is... 6.9.7 Changes to the networking model5: Fail the resource load. The intent behind this was "making the testing of offline application easier". Given the unintended consequence Aaron brought up, we should probably revisit this. Maybe only fail to load the reso

Re: [whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

Not loading cross-domain images in e-mail messages is a standard privacy feature e.g. in Microsoft Outlook. (Indeed, that means that Microsoft Outlook does not allow any external images, only attachments). The workaround, to save as a HTML document and view in browser, should work. If the images

[whatwg] In AppCache web apps, images from unpredictable domains won't load

When a page is loaded from an AppCache, even when online, external resources such as images will not be loaded at all. If foo.com has an image http://bar.com/img.png"; />, then according to the steps in http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/offline.html#changesToNetworkingMode

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and -- informative note?

The spec (at least from what I know) wants to create a unified experience, we don't want users to have a different experience from browser to browser. Nor do developers want to implement hacks for every browser. If no common ground can be reached then maybe no common ground is better than common g

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and -- informative note?

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 4:01 AM, David Gerard wrote: > A spec that makes an encumbered format a "SHOULD" is unlikely to be > workable for those content providers, e.g. Wikimedia, who don't have > the money, and won't under principle, to put up stuff in a format > rendered radioactive by known enforc

[whatwg] Adding SVG Filter-like functionality to Canvas 2D Context

Hi everybody. I've recently done some experiments using SVG filters (see http://www.tapper-ware.net/stable/web.filter.voxels/index.xhtml ). SVG Filters basically offer greater speed for users and easier optimization for implementing parties than trying to implement standard image manipulati

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Jul 6, 2009, at 3:00 AM, Lino Mastrodomenico wrote: (BTW, canPlayType in Safari 4.0 seems buggy: it always returns "no", even with XiphQT installed). That was fixed just after Safari 4.0 shipped, it should work in WebKit nightly builds. See http://trac.webkit.org/changeset/43972. eri

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 09:02:51 + (UTC), Ian Hickson wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Kartikaya Gupta wrote: > > > > You've expressed something similar in a couple of the other threads as > > well, and I find it puzzling. It's true that if you spec things that > > will never be implemented, it harm

[whatwg] HTML5+Ogg

Hi, WHATWG is a public community specifying web technologies, such as HTML5. Xiph.org is a public community specifying free codecs, such as Ogg Theora. It's great that many people in the web community are supporting Ogg; but it seems that specifying Ogg in HTML5 is not practical for WHATWG. HTML

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Jonas Sicking wrote: > On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Ian Hickson wrote: > > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: > >> > >> It's not the standard alone that makes it happen. The standard is for > >> the general market neither a necessary nor a sufficient requirement > >

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:14 PM, Ian Hickson wrote: > On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Silvia Pfeiffer wrote: >> >> It's not the standard alone that makes it happen. The standard is for >> the general market neither a necessary nor a sufficient requirement for >> uptake. However, for the individual vendor, a sta

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

2009/7/6 Maciej Stachowiak : > Here's an example of some markup that will work on a wide range of browsers, > if you provide Ogg and MP4 versions of your video: > . The MP4 version can be > played either through in browsers that support that, or by

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009, Kartikaya Gupta wrote: > > You've expressed something similar in a couple of the other threads as > well, and I find it puzzling. It's true that if you spec things that > will never be implemented, it harms the integrity of the spec. But on > the other hand, if you allow any

[whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

[to list as well, oops] -- Forwarded message -- From: David Gerard Date: 2009/7/6 Subject: Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument To: Ian Hickson 2009/7/6 Ian Hickson : > Given the volume of support Theora has gotten without it being in the > spec, I don't see why pu

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

On Jul 6, 2009, at 12:52 AM, Lino Mastrodomenico wrote: HTML5 solves this problem because now the player is embedded in the browser, so I started using and hiding the YouTube blurb inside it as a fallback. This should work with every browser (except maybe Safari without XiphQT???), gives me

Re: [whatwg] Codecs for and -- informative note?

2009/7/6 Jim Jewett : > "As of 2009, there is no single efficient codec which works on all > modern browsers.  Content producers are encouraged to supply the video > in both Theora and H.264 formats, as per the following example" A spec that makes an encumbered format a "SHOULD" is unlikely to b

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

2009/7/6 Kristof Zelechovski : > Small authors are hardly an alternative to YouTube because they use YouTube > (or a similar service) to publish their content. [snip] > In short, if you do not have the know-how to serve your video content, you > will just use YouTube and never bother. I am a small

Re: [whatwg] Chipset support is a good argument

For those of you that are concerned whether Microsoft will support web video: Internet Explorer already does, albeit in the Microsoft WayT: * dynsrc Property (IMG, INPUT, INPUT type=image, ...) http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms533742(VS.85).aspx> :-)

Re: [whatwg] DOMTokenList feedback

Regarding DOMTokenList, why not: contains(""): true add,remove,toggle(""): no effect? Are there situations that would require an exception to be thrown, or else the page would go out in a blast? Chris