Re: Virtualization - Yea or Nay

[Douglas von Roeder via 4D_Tech]

Many thanks to everyone who replied.
The consensus appears to be that 4D can work well as long as the resources
(dollars and expertise) are expended to make it work. I'm *all* for that.
Based on the feedback here, I think I've can provide my client with a sound
basis to make a technological decision.

--
Douglas von Roeder
949-336-2902

On Mon, Feb 27, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Chuck Miller via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> My thoughts exactly. I had a client that was using VMs for both
> development and production. All was AOK until they wrote a custom plugin.
> While testing the plugin on my machine single user all worked great. While
> testing on virtual. It simply did not work. I spent about 4 weeks trying to
> fix a problem that was fixed when we changed the test server to run in a
> non virtual mode. Voila everything worked. Any time VM’s are used for
> production I would very  leery  unless the support for the VM is very very
> experienced in setup, maintenance, and fixes.
>
> Regards
>
> Chuck
> 
> 
>  Chuck Miller Voice: (617) 739-0306
>  Informed Solutions, Inc. Fax: (617) 232-1064
>  mailto:cjmillerinformed-solutions.com
>  Brookline, MA 02446 USA Registered 4D Developer
>Providers of 4D and Sybase connectivity
>   http://www.informed-solutions.com
> 
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> > On Feb 27, 2017, at 3:41 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <
> 4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:
> >
> >> The company underwent an unsuccessful virtualization effort a few years
> ago
> >> (prior to my involvement) when they were using 4D 2004. The IT personnel
> >> involved with that effort are not longer with the company and the
> current
> >> staff has assured my client that they will "do it right this time".
> >>
> >> I would appreciate your thoughts, insights, and real-world experiences
> on
> >> this topic.
> >
> > The line that sent chills down my spine was “they will ‘do it right this
> time’”. This is a very telling comment.
> >
> > I have death with 3 virtual environments that are running 4D Server
> applications. 2 were custom designed and installed by a third party vendor.
> The vendor chose all the equipment, their personnel installed all the
> hardware and software, they configured everything. They solved all the
> problems and performance issues with the new setup. These two virtual
> environments are fast and 4D Server runs great on them. Everyone was happy
> with the final result. They paid big 5 figures for the VM, but it was worth
> it.
> >
> > But one environment was built by the in-house “IT guys”. Long story
> short, performance is not as good. They have periods durning the day when
> things “just get slow for a while” then they get better. Network problems.
> Some things work fine. Some things don’t works so fine. The “IT guys” built
> it, so they have to fix it, and they don’t know what more they can do to
> make it better. (And heaven forbid they call an “expert” to help out.)
> >
> > You can be certain that 4D Server/4D Client runs just fine in a good VM.
> But a bad VM or a marginal VM can result in poor performance and other
> problems with 4D. And the “IT guys” will always say “it is just a 4D issue,
> 4D is crap software that is why it runs bad in our VM”. That will be a
> false statement. But the “IT guys” built this VM so it is fantastic and can
> not be made better than how it is now. So you will just have to live with
> the way 4D runs in the VM.
> >
> > I hope your “IT guys” are atypical and much better than most.
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > 
> > Tim Nevels
> > Innovative Solutions
> > 785-749-3444
> > timnev...@mac.com
> > 
> >
> > **
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Re: Virtualization - Yea or Nay

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Feb 27, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Douglas von Roeder wrote:

> The company underwent an unsuccessful virtualization effort a few years ago
> (prior to my involvement) when they were using 4D 2004. The IT personnel
> involved with that effort are not longer with the company and the current
> staff has assured my client that they will "do it right this time".
> 
> I would appreciate your thoughts, insights, and real-world experiences on
> this topic.

The line that sent chills down my spine was “they will ‘do it right this 
time’”. This is a very telling comment. 

I have death with 3 virtual environments that are running 4D Server 
applications. 2 were custom designed and installed by a third party vendor. The 
vendor chose all the equipment, their personnel installed all the hardware and 
software, they configured everything. They solved all the problems and 
performance issues with the new setup. These two virtual environments are fast 
and 4D Server runs great on them. Everyone was happy with the final result. 
They paid big 5 figures for the VM, but it was worth it. 

But one environment was built by the in-house “IT guys”. Long story short, 
performance is not as good. They have periods durning the day when things “just 
get slow for a while” then they get better. Network problems. Some things work 
fine. Some things don’t works so fine. The “IT guys” built it, so they have to 
fix it, and they don’t know what more they can do to make it better. (And 
heaven forbid they call an “expert” to help out.)

You can be certain that 4D Server/4D Client runs just fine in a good VM. But a 
bad VM or a marginal VM can result in poor performance and other problems with 
4D. And the “IT guys” will always say “it is just a 4D issue, 4D is crap 
software that is why it runs bad in our VM”. That will be a false statement. 
But the “IT guys” built this VM so it is fantastic and can not be made better 
than how it is now. So you will just have to live with the way 4D runs in the 
VM. 

I hope your “IT guys” are atypical and much better than most. 

Tim


Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com


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Re: Virtualization - Yea or Nay

[Benedict, Tom via 4D_Tech]

Hi Doug,

>My reason for posting this message is to solicit feedback on the pros and cons 
>of moving
>an existing system to a virtual environment. The IT department at a client 
>site is pushing
>a client to virtualize their 4D system and I've been asked to provide input.

>In a short, my understanding is that 4D can work well in a virtual environment 
>providing
>that the VM is configured for OLTP. The hallmarks of that configuration 
>appears to be
>use of SSD's as the primary drives, apparently acting in a caching function, 
>and as well
>as optimization to support small block transfers (2k? 8k?).

It's works great, especially if, as you've stated, sufficient resources are 
allocated to 4D. That really is the key. Also, make sure that the primary 
resources are dedicated to 4D. VM is extremely smart and, unless specifically 
told not to, will divert resources away from 'idle' applications. So if 4D 
Server is 'quiet' for a period of time, it may 'lose' it's priority with 
respect to resources (CPUs, caches, SSDs etc) and performance will go down the 
tube. And it may take 10-15 minutes for those resources to be 'moved' back to 
4D Server, once 4D activity resumes. This can be avoided by dedicating 
resources.

The other key is to have lots of experience with VM management and 
configuration in the IT team. Hopefully, your app is not going to be their 
first VM. Also, if they say they are doing it to save money on hardware, be 
very suspicious. Enterprize grade VM hardware is extremely expensive. The 
savings is in the flexibility, fault tolerance and redundancy it provides. 
Adding a server is a task measured in minutes rather than days. Moving a server 
is a completely transparent operation done while the wheels are spinning. It's 
really quite remarkable.

We have a 250 user 150 GB 4D Server fully virtualized. Along with a number of 
Test and Dev servers. It pretty much just works. One thing we still use 
hardware for is monthly data file compacts (via MSC). The VM system isn't 
optimized for that kind of activity evidently. Other than that, it works great.

HTH,

Tom Benedict
Optum
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Re: Test code is good

[Walt Nelson via 4D_Tech]

> On Feb 26, 2017, at 9:51 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> If anyone is working on automated testing and feels like comparing notes,
> drop me a line.

David,

All good points. I’m pretty sure you know this, but for those that don’t…

There is a component called UnitTester4D by Mark Schaake, which he has kindly 
put into the Open Source community.

It is an amazing tool for generating and keeping track of all your Unit Testing 
4D code.

He has posted it on Github:

https://github.com/markschaake/UnitTester4D 


There is even a Google Group set up for discussion.

A very generous move on his part. Sadly, Mark is no longer doing 4D work…

I would be interested in hearing from anyone who is using it and upgraded it 
from 4D v11.

Thanks,
Walt Nelson (Seattle)
New stuff coming!
www.foundationshell.com 
w...@foundationshell.com 

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Re: 2 plugins with the same ID

[John DeSoi via 4D_Tech]

> On Feb 26, 2017, at 5:07 AM, Bertrand SOUBEYRAND via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> What happens if two plugins have the same ID?


Apparently nothing. I suppose 4D internally maps them some other way. I see 
third party plugins using the same ID (15000 for API Pack and NTK) and 4D 
Plugins as well (808464332 for 4D Quick, 4D Internet Commands, and 4D Pack). 

BTW, "4D Quick" shows up in PLUGINS LIST, but I don't see any package for it in 
the 4D application Plugins folder. I assume this is somehow related to Quick 
Reports. It does not show up in the  Explorer plugins list. And "OLE Tools" 
shows up on the Explorer, but not in PLUGINS LIST. Confusing.

John DeSoi, Ph.D.

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RE: Virtualization - Yea or Nay

[Dennis, Neil P. via 4D_Tech]

> I would appreciate your thoughts, insights, and real-world experiences on 
> this topic.

I'm running a v15 server with a VM Windows Server (2008 R2), SAN Disk (not 
SSD), 64GB memory, Xeon processor. We have concurrent usage over 130 users (and 
not an optimized application). All users are remote but connect with Citrix (4D 
server sees the clients as local)

Application runs well but we are always looking to improve speed. I would say, 
try out your configuration and see if it works.


Neil









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How to get array index with hierarchical listbox when using on mouse move

[Piotr Chabot Stadhouders via 4D_Tech]

Hi,

I want to use a hierarchical listbox with arrays
When I am in the on mouse move event of the listbox, how can I determine which 
element this is?
I have found a tech tip where is explained how to get the row number.
But how can I get from row number to array index?

Say I have 6 elements in a 1 parent and 1 child array, and there are 3 
different parents, than the last row number returns 9, but there are only 6 
elements in the arrays.

It must be something simple I've overlooked.

Thanks in advance,

Piotr

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Windows Authentication on SQL server

[Ronnie Teo via 4D_Tech]

Hi All,

I would like to know if there’s any 4D plug-in that is available for 4Dv11 
through to v13, that will facilitate logging in to a SAP SQL server.
My client’s IT has unilaterally decided to replace the SQL server and decided 
that this set up will be a non-mixed Windows-only authentication mode.

Currently, I’m using SimpleSQL (works great though no-longer being supported) 
but that only allows me to log in to retrieve data from the db via SQL 
authentication.
As such my SQL button script will no longer work once they remove the user 
account defined the SQL database.

I posted this a few days back.  Trying again to see if I can get more feedback 
and advice.


Regards,
Ronnie
Tarawerkz

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Client on two lan card

[stardata.info via 4D_Tech]

Hi All,
I have a 4D application that i use in client server mode.
The server machine have two network cards with two differents ip, how i 
can do side client connection to set the lan to use?


Now in settings of the first connection i insert the database name, ip 
number and port number.

This settings will be maintained?

Thanks
Ferdinando
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