subject:"\[9fans\] List of companies that use Plan 9."

noam said there's also some well-known issues with locks that still
keeps happening in fossil. did you watch the outcome of last iwp9? he
has the best description of the state of venti and fossil to date.

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:08 AM Steve Simon  wrote:
> 
> 
> Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server 
> for twenty years now.
> 
> Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:
> 
> Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope 
> with overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed by 
> Brucee. it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer for 
> venti this is unlikely, it has never happened to me.
> 
> Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only way 
> to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by Charles 
> (i think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and with the fix 
> my server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.
> 
> Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.
> 
> I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
> 9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
> community does not wish to support.
> 
> -Steve
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Steve Simon



Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server for 
twenty years now.

Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:

Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope with 
overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed by Brucee. 
it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer for venti this is 
unlikely, it has never happened to me.

Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only way 
to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by Charles (i 
think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and with the fix my 
server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.

Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.

I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
community does not wish to support.

-Steve


 
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

about venti: probably nobody got around to removing it.
send a patch.

more seriously: i have no clue what might be wrong with venti, cause i
haven't used it for decades.
the papers for venti and fossil are nice btw, i have nothing against
the concept, rather i'm all for it, in theory.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:33 PM Lucio De Re  wrote:
>
> Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised in 
> the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I think, 
> but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked together as a 
> minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be utilised and the old 
> file system could be abandoned.
>
> I somehow missed that discussion at the time and never went back to find out 
> how it panned out. But it sure feels with hindsight that Fossil became the 
> trigger for the 9front schism and that would explain the sensitivity on 
> either side. It's a shame, because the Venti potential remains unrealised as 
> there isn't the Fossil bridge (where development is continuing, in 9front) to 
> a better, full functionality file system that includes Venti backing storage.
>
> Which brings me to the question I have been meaning to ask: what scope does 
> Venti serve in the absence of Fossil? I appreciate that VAC is a handy form 
> of archiving, but does it justify the complexity of configuring and 
> maintaining a Venti archive? I know that vacfs has some failings I haven't 
> had the opportunity or the inclination to investigate, but exhibit themselves 
> only in P9P - in my experience. So is Venti only a trophy application, or are 
> there serious uses for it among the 9front community?
>
> Lucio.
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:04 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
>> >
>> > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even 
>> > demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at 
>> > the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's 
>> > asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that 
>> > something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it 
>> > failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is 
>> > the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you
>> > shouldn't have removed it.
>> 
>> The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just fossil 
>> that evokes this
>> reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove 
>> without any reason of doubt that the
>> code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are 
>> so attached to fossil.
>> Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for 
>> touching the holy code
>> as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this is 
>> actually a
>> mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in 
>> Plan 9 I encourage
>> you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in 
>> thinking it was dead weight.
>> 
>> I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread 
>> between p9sk1
>> and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent the 
>> time to explain
>> to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and 
>> implementation.
>> 
>> We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd 
>> like, we simply don't want to
>> deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us to 
>> make this
>> decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other distributions 
>> and current
>> users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested in 
>> it, sorry.
>> 
>> As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil back 
>> to 9front
>> is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc 
>> and help
>> new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about 
>> anything and
>> then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is 
>> not exactly
>> easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then are 
>> you complaining
>> that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed user? 
>> Does it not
>> make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more resilient 
>> and requires
>> less watering?
>> 
>> All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't 
>> imagine someone
>> willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> Lucio De Re
> 2 Piet Retief St
> Kestell (Eastern Free State)
> 9860 South Africa
>
> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
> Cell: +27 83 251 5824
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Lucio De Re

Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised
in the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I
think, but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked
together as a minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be
utilised and the old file system could be abandoned.

I somehow missed that discussion at the time and never went back to find
out how it panned out. But it sure feels with hindsight that Fossil became
the trigger for the 9front schism and that would explain the sensitivity on
either side. It's a shame, because the Venti potential remains
unrealised as there isn't the Fossil bridge (where development is
continuing, in 9front) to a better, full functionality file system that
includes Venti backing storage.

Which brings me to the question I have been meaning to ask: what scope does
Venti serve in the absence of Fossil? I appreciate that VAC is a handy form
of archiving, but does it justify the complexity of configuring and
maintaining a Venti archive? I know that vacfs has some failings I haven't
had the opportunity or the inclination to investigate, but exhibit
themselves only in P9P - in my experience. So is Venti only a trophy
application, or are there serious uses for it among the 9front community?

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:04 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> >
> > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not
> even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing
> at the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite.
> It's asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting
> that something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it
> failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is
> the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you
> > shouldn't have removed it.
> 
> The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just
> fossil that evokes this
> reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove
> without any reason of doubt that the
> code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are
> so attached to fossil.
> Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for
> touching the holy code
> as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this
> is actually a
> mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in
> Plan 9 I encourage
> you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in
> thinking it was dead weight.
> 
> I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread
> between p9sk1
> and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent
> the time to explain
> to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and
> implementation.
> 
> We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd
> like, we simply don't want to
> deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us
> to make this
> decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other
> distributions and current
> users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested
> in it, sorry.
> 
> As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil
> back to 9front
> is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc
> and help
> new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about
> anything and
> then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is
> not exactly
> easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then
> are you complaining
> that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed
> user? Does it not
> make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more
> resilient and requires
> less watering?
> 
> All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't
> imagine someone
> willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.
> 

-- 
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2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> 
> I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even 
> demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at the 
> code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's asking 
> to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that something 
> is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it failing. How did 
> it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is the code bad? If you 
> can't answer these questions, maybe you
> shouldn't have removed it. 

The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just fossil 
that evokes this
reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove without 
any reason of doubt that the
code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are so 
attached to fossil.
Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for touching 
the holy code
as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this is 
actually a
mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in Plan 
9 I encourage
you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in thinking 
it was dead weight.

I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread 
between p9sk1
and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent the 
time to explain
to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and 
implementation.

We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd like, 
we simply don't want to
deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us to 
make this
decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other distributions 
and current
users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested in 
it, sorry.

As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil back to 
9front
is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc and 
help
new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about 
anything and
then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is not 
exactly
easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then are you 
complaining
that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed user? 
Does it not
make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more resilient and 
requires
less watering?

All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't imagine 
someone
willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the
> exact person you're responding to :-)
> 
> It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent.

When else has it happened?  Do I always do it?  Are there firmware
differences? Have you collected logs on the matter?  I just don't think
you have the data to back up this persistence claim.

I'm generally pretty direct when I want to insult someone.  It's not
like there are meaningful consequences.  If you feel like you were
subject to the category of people I was describing, there's not much I
can do about that, I guess.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the
exact person you're responding to :-)

It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:53 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
> > called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and
> brushing
> > them off as "emotional".
> 
> What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse?
> 
> What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse?
> This is a concerning development.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
> called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing
> them off as "emotional".

What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse?

What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse?
This is a concerning development.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Back to square one, are we lol

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:24 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for
> you/.
>
> That is correct.
>
> > A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to
> understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know
> that decision was made, or why.
> 
> A valid reason for what?

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Thank you, I look forward to seeing your work then.

On 5/15/24 11:21, Don Bailey wrote:
> Sounds good.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody  > wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the 
> discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the 
> discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some 
> centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In 
> the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search through 
> the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you have to 
> /know/ about what you are looking for, if
> something
> > was removed. A separate document that outlines these 
> removed/altered/added items, and the rationale/context, would solve that. 
> Does that help illuminate the problem I'm discussing? 
> 
> Who exactly is the audience here? If the audience is developers then the 
> commit message is fine, if someone wants to know why code was changed that is 
> where you put the reasoning.
> People here like to work on code, less so on writing up whatever 
> justification you personally feel is sufficient to warrant whatever we're 
> doing. I already stated that I think
> these days more rationale and notice would be given to people for a 
> change that big, things are trending towards what I think you want.
> 
> If however you (or someone else) wanted to do what you are asking us to 
> do, which is spend the significant time it takes to demonstrably prove that 
> fossil is _not_ busted
> as we think it is and present it to us that would make for a compelling 
> argument for inclusion. Perhaps what you do could become the standard for how 
> these large changes
> are documented going forward.
> 
> Or if you'd like to start with a fork and/or raise your own community 
> with this high level of standard for code changes I would absolutely 
> encourage you to do so, if
> that is truly a better way of doing open source then it will be evident. 
> But right now I can't help but read this as asking us (people writing code 
> for 9front) to do
> more work to appease you when you are not interested in helping get that 
> work done.
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions 
>  + participants 
>  + delivery options 
>  Permalink 
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for you/.

That is correct.

> A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to 
> understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know that 
> decision was made, or why.

A valid reason for what?

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Sounds good.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the
> discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the
> discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some
> centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In
> the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search
> through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you
> have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something
> > was removed. A separate document that outlines these
> removed/altered/added items, and the rationale/context, would solve that.
> Does that help illuminate the problem I'm discussing?
> 
> Who exactly is the audience here? If the audience is developers then the
> commit message is fine, if someone wants to know why code was changed that
> is where you put the reasoning.
> People here like to work on code, less so on writing up whatever
> justification you personally feel is sufficient to warrant whatever we're
> doing. I already stated that I think
> these days more rationale and notice would be given to people for a change
> that big, things are trending towards what I think you want.
> 
> If however you (or someone else) wanted to do what you are asking us to
> do, which is spend the significant time it takes to demonstrably prove that
> fossil is _not_ busted
> as we think it is and present it to us that would make for a compelling
> argument for inclusion. Perhaps what you do could become the standard for
> how these large changes
> are documented going forward.
> 
> Or if you'd like to start with a fork and/or raise your own community with
> this high level of standard for code changes I would absolutely encourage
> you to do so, if
> that is truly a better way of doing open source then it will be evident.
> But right now I can't help but read this as asking us (people writing code
> for 9front) to do
> more work to appease you when you are not interested in helping get that
> work done.
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing
them off as "emotional".

I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even
demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at
the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's
asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that
something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it
failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is
the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you shouldn't have
removed it.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:12 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> > It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the
> > complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil?
> What
> > degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
> > consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those
> > bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and
> > maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you
> > constantly bother with them.
>
> Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who
> just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling
> his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running
> great" are mutually exclusive.
>
> > It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a
> code-centric
> > community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's
> > problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be
> > coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data
> > backs that up?
>
> It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously!  If that
> had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front
> probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil.  But
> your "point to the code" demand is not a great look.  That *is* more
> like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports.  In a way, deleting
> Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has
> stopped corrupting my data for sure.  So there's the code causing the
> problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue.  Nobody
> owes you a scientific analysis.
>
> But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front
> tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive
> timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have.
>
> > So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this
> list.
> > Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or
> > "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's
> be
> > prescriptive, instead.
> 
> No, not "anything."  Specifically this Fossil nonsense.  I don't know
> why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not
> really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward
> problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that
> weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually
> understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not
> interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to
> delete the code.
> 
> Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this.  Anyone who
> wants Fossil can install it.  If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload
> it somewhere and canonize it.  Problem solved.
> 
> As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a
> commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty
> gross.  We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never
> give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I
> don't understand why it matters at all.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:57, hiro wrote:
>> I don't understand the difference between code being included in the 
>> distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we 
>> ship code we maintain it.
> 
> there are some exceptions :)

I would like to see a list, that could should either be fixed or removed in my 
opinion.



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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote:
> Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the 
> discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the 
> discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some 
> centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In 
> the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search through 
> the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you have to 
> /know/ about what you are looking for, if something
> was removed. A separate document that outlines these removed/altered/added 
> items, and the rationale/context, would solve that. Does that help illuminate 
> the problem I'm discussing? 

Who exactly is the audience here? If the audience is developers then the commit 
message is fine, if someone wants to know why code was changed that is where 
you put the reasoning.
People here like to work on code, less so on writing up whatever justification 
you personally feel is sufficient to warrant whatever we're doing. I already 
stated that I think
these days more rationale and notice would be given to people for a change that 
big, things are trending towards what I think you want.

If however you (or someone else) wanted to do what you are asking us to do, 
which is spend the significant time it takes to demonstrably prove that fossil 
is _not_ busted
as we think it is and present it to us that would make for a compelling 
argument for inclusion. Perhaps what you do could become the standard for how 
these large changes
are documented going forward.

Or if you'd like to start with a fork and/or raise your own community with this 
high level of standard for code changes I would absolutely encourage you to do 
so, if
that is truly a better way of doing open source then it will be evident. But 
right now I can't help but read this as asking us (people writing code for 
9front) to do
more work to appease you when you are not interested in helping get that work 
done.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for
you/.

A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to
understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know
that decision was made, or why.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:07 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > In the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search
> through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you
> have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something was removed. A
> separate document that outlines these removed/altered/added items, and the
> rationale/context, would solve that.
> 
> This separate document exists these days, that's what we call the
> release, you can sometimes even get it in print-form IIRC as sl
> compiles it into various digital and analog formats.
> 
> Regardless of us seemingly being in agreement about this, finding a
> commit that removes fossil in the git log is *easy*, and knowing what
> you want to be looking for is definitely a prerequisite for looking
> for it, so I cannot draw the conclusion for the reason you stated.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the
> complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What
> degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
> consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those
> bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and
> maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you
> constantly bother with them.

Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who
just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling
his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running
great" are mutually exclusive.  

> It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric
> community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's
> problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be
> coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data
> backs that up?

It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously!  If that
had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front
probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil.  But
your "point to the code" demand is not a great look.  That *is* more
like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports.  In a way, deleting
Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has
stopped corrupting my data for sure.  So there's the code causing the
problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue.  Nobody
owes you a scientific analysis.  

But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front
tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive
timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have.

> So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this list.
> Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or
> "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be
> prescriptive, instead.

No, not "anything."  Specifically this Fossil nonsense.  I don't know
why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not
really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward
problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that
weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually
understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not
interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to
delete the code.  

Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this.  Anyone who
wants Fossil can install it.  If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload
it somewhere and canonize it.  Problem solved.

As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a 
commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty
gross.  We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never
give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I
don't understand why it matters at all.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> In the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search 
> through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you 
> have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something was removed. A 
> separate document that outlines these removed/altered/added items, and the 
> rationale/context, would solve that.

This separate document exists these days, that's what we call the
release, you can sometimes even get it in print-form IIRC as sl
compiles it into various digital and analog formats.

Regardless of us seemingly being in agreement about this, finding a
commit that removes fossil in the git log is *easy*, and knowing what
you want to be looking for is definitely a prerequisite for looking
for it, so I cannot draw the conclusion for the reason you stated.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I don't understand the difference between code being included in the 
> distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we ship 
> code we maintain it.

there are some exceptions :)

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons 
> for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them 
> and provide rationale/evidence for their removal.

and i agree that we should hold everybody to this standard. Preferably
a big change like this should be mentioned in a verbose commit
message, and maybe in the release notes.

the problem is that this removal was kind of the joke that started
9front, and back then these kinds of jokes were not documented well
yet and a good release process had not been established yet. when it
turned out that the joke that was 9front was better than all the
serious bizznezz competition, over time, (maybe accidentally?)
professionalism set in.

i would presume that nowadays there would be better notice in this
regard to explain to all the many users in detail (back then there
were just few) what awaits them in each release.

yes, 9front was trolling, to some extent, but the troll has turned
into something extremely useful.

> That way, even if another group chooses not to remove those items, they can 
> learn from other teams' decision making. This is especially imperative for 
> file system stability, for those that have not had trouble with Fossil, but 
> need to understand that it is problematic enough to be pulled from 9front. 
> How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? etc.

agreed. i'm confident that most of the releases are taking this kind
of approach nowadays.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the
discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the
discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some
centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In
the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search
through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you
have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something was removed. A
separate document that outlines these removed/altered/added items, and the
rationale/context, would solve that. Does that help illuminate the problem
I'm discussing?

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53 AM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 10:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> > This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid
> reasons for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please
> document them and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. That way,
> even if another group chooses not to remove those items, they can learn
> from other teams' decision making. This is especially imperative for file
> system stability, for those that have not had trouble with Fossil, but need
> to understand that it is problematic enough to be pulled from
> > 9front. How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it
> tested? etc.
> 
> I think many of the reasons and rational has been explained in this list.
> Really we don't entirely rip out programs often.
> It's fairly rare. This change was made fairly early on in 9front's
> history, I think things would have gone over different
> these days. A technical write-up would be nice, sure I don't disagree but
> I think people just wanted to stop dealing with
> the crash reports and lost data and get back to spending time on code they
> enjoyed to work on.
> 
> For what it is worth I think our commit messages these days are quite
> descriptive of the problem being addressed, the details
> put in commonly directly include the crash repro or failure state or
> technical description as to why things were done.
> Also a huge portion of things are discussed on irc, nearly everything that
> gets put in to the system is discussed with
> at least 1 additional person and usually more depending on the weight of
> the patch. There is a lot of thought that
> goes in to what changes these days.
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the
complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil? What
degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those
bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and
maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you
constantly bother with them.

It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a code-centric
community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's
problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be
coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data
backs that up?

So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this list.
Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or
"gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's be
prescriptive, instead.

D

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:40 AM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> > But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their
> removal.
>
> You've been on this list a while.  You should remember therefore that
> Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*.
> Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data,
> and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine.
> As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's
> data kept getting corrupted.  Maybe Fossil is fixed now!  Maybe it
> isn't!  It's not worth finding out, and the situation was never helped
> by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug
> reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters.
>
> So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted.
> Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that happened
> on this very list.
>
> > How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested?
> etc.
> 
> Not how it works.  The burden of support is on the distributor.  Part of
> forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your
> door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate their
> computer.  We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it in
> that state was idiotic.  Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or
> housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors.
> 
> Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued
> to receive attention.  It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on
> coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now.
> The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially
> when it wasn't.  Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Fossil
> Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such
> a degree that it's worth considering again.  The rest of us are tired of
> driving in that circle.
> 
> You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9
> repo host.   We don't hate Fossil users.  We just don't want to take
> responsibility for it.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons 
> for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them 
> and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. That way, even if another 
> group chooses not to remove those items, they can learn from other teams' 
> decision making. This is especially imperative for file system stability, for 
> those that have not had trouble with Fossil, but need to understand that it 
> is problematic enough to be pulled from
> 9front. How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? 
> etc. 
> 

I think many of the reasons and rational has been explained in this list. 
Really we don't entirely rip out programs often.
It's fairly rare. This change was made fairly early on in 9front's history, I 
think things would have gone over different
these days. A technical write-up would be nice, sure I don't disagree but I 
think people just wanted to stop dealing with
the crash reports and lost data and get back to spending time on code they 
enjoyed to work on.

For what it is worth I think our commit messages these days are quite 
descriptive of the problem being addressed, the details
put in commonly directly include the crash repro or failure state or technical 
description as to why things were done.
Also a huge portion of things are discussed on irc, nearly everything that gets 
put in to the system is discussed with
at least 1 additional person and usually more depending on the weight of the 
patch. There is a lot of thought that
goes in to what changes these days.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:20:48AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> But please document them and provide rationale/evidence for their
removal. 

You've been on this list a while.  You should remember therefore that   
Fossil was a *constant* topic of debate here for *years*.
Specifically, people kept reporting that Fossil had beshit their data,  
and other people deemed that a skill issue and insisted Fossil was fine.
As bug fixes trickled out, Fossil continued to be fine, and people's
data kept getting corrupted.  Maybe Fossil is fixed now!  Maybe it
isn't!  It's not worth finding out, and the situation was never helped  
by the "there is no war in Ba Sing Se" crowd refusing to take bug
reports -- and actively attacking bug reporters.

So, the backstory of Fossil on 9fans is what led to it getting deleted.
Asking for 'evidence' is just more of the same gaslighting that happened
on this very list.

> How was the lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested?
etc.

Not how it works.  The burden of support is on the distributor.  Part of
forking software is, when it breaks, people come knocking on your 
door/mailing list/ircnet complaining that "your" software ate their 
computer.  We *knew* Fossil was unreliable, so continuing to ship it in
that state was idiotic.  Removing it was an act of self-defense and/or  
housekeeping, depending on how militant you like your metaphors.

Meanwhile, since the defossilization of 9front, Fossil itself continued
to receive attention.  It sounds like the sp9sss dropped the ball on
coordinating some of that, but we are assured that Fossil is great now.
The problem is: we were assured Fossil was great then, too, especially  
when it wasn't.  Therefore it is the burden of the Chamber of Fossil
Fraternity Et Exuberance to prove that it is stable, and test it to such
a degree that it's worth considering again.  The rest of us are tired of
driving in that circle.

You can even store it on our sources server, or put the code on our git9
repo host.   We don't hate Fossil users.  We just don't want to take   
responsibility for it.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I suggested that the sources could be included in the distribution, so they 
> would not fork-rot as they are doing presently. It's always been the case 
> that the Plan 9 distribution included "broken" sources that could not be 
> compiled without external support, but were interesting enough to be 
> published.

this is a good point, and this is exactly the kind of arguments that i
would like to see more of on 9fans.

> That changed some when Alef was dropped and in fact I saved the Alef 
> development stuff and ported it to 3ed and 4ed because I disagreed with the 
> decision. Note that I made a sweeping generalisation, for simplicity, much 
> was discarded between 2ed and 4ed, and I find all that quite regrettable.

Interesting, thanks for sharing some of that history.

> I am certain that Cinap had good reasons for removing Fossil, but I'm not 
> sure you have painted the entire picture for this audience. No matter, of 
> course, 9front will be what 9front will be.

I agree with you that maybe "removing Fossil" was a little bit overly
dramatic, and maybe the goal was indeed to send a strong message with
this act.
otoh, i can understand the anger, after countless people lost their
data, trusting that fossil is certified by bell-labs and "totally
safe".

> I'm not going to argue with the semantic subtleties of "bad" as you interpret 
> it, but I will privately consider your judgement and interpret your postings 
> with a bias parallel to the one you have displayed toward me so far.

i hope you can reconsider for the sake of technical professionalism.

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

2024-05-15 Thread Jens Staal

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 05:20:21PM GMT, sirjofri wrote:
> 
> Agreeing is not necessary. There are many topics where we don't have to agree 
> to be a community. For example, I'd like to see libxml in 9front, but the 
> decision makers decided against it. More recently, people wished for fossil 
> to come back to 9front, but the decision makers decided against it. Both have 
> their reasons, and we can always fork off another fork and begin our own 
> distribution, or just have our own local version with our changes.

I can probably put libxml2 in APExp [1] if you want. I have not done it yet
since nothing else I build there at the moment has this dependency, but
I had an old port of it that probably can be updated.

[1] https://github.com/staalmannen/apexp
 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:18, Lucio De Re wrote:
> What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the 
> sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot as 
> they are doing presently.

I don't understand the difference between code being included in the 
distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we ship 
code we maintain it.


 It's always been the case that the Plan 9 distribution included "broken" 
sources that could not be compiled without external support, but were 
interesting enough to be published. That changed some when Alef was dropped and 
in fact I saved the Alef development stuff and ported it to 3ed and 4ed because 
I disagreed with the
> decision. Note that I made a sweeping generalisation, for simplicity, much 
> was discarded between 2ed and 4ed, and I find all that quite regrettable.

That's not how things are maintained in 9front, if things are shipped with the 
system they should build and be useful.
Nowadays we have tests that run every night to ensure that things continue to 
build and work as advertised.

> 
> I am certain that Cinap had good reasons for removing Fossil, but I'm not 
> sure you have painted the entire picture for this audience. No matter, of 
> course, 9front will be what 9front will be.

What is missing from my description?

> 
> I'm not going to argue with the semantic subtleties of "bad" as you interpret 
> it, but I will privately consider your judgement and interpret your postings 
> with a bias parallel to the one you have displayed toward me so far.

I like 9front, that's not any secret. I don't have anything against you.




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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

> That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, 
> etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at 
> least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good 
> start...

to agree with the decision making it helps to be part of it, and to be
part of it it helps to understand the decision making and to
understand it it helps to read the code. i think this is the major
reason why some people are appalled these days. there's just so much
volume of code it's hard to keep track.
but that might be a good thing...

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

This is part of the issue I've had with 9front. If there are valid reasons
for things to disappear or not be used, that's OK. But please document them
and provide rationale/evidence for their removal. That way, even if another
group chooses not to remove those items, they can learn from other teams'
decision making. This is especially imperative for file system stability,
for those that have not had trouble with Fossil, but need to understand
that it is problematic enough to be pulled from 9front. How was the
lack-of-stability tested? To what degree was it tested? etc.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:14 AM Lucio De Re  wrote:

> What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the
> sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot
> as they are doing presently. It's always been the case that the Plan 9
> distribution included "broken" sources that could not be compiled without
> external support, but were interesting enough to be published. That changed
> some when Alef was dropped and in fact I saved the Alef development stuff
> and ported it to 3ed and 4ed because I disagreed with the decision. Note
> that I made a sweeping generalisation, for simplicity, much was discarded
> between 2ed and 4ed, and I find all that quite regrettable.
>
> I am certain that Cinap had good reasons for removing Fossil, but I'm not
> sure you have painted the entire picture for this audience. No matter, of
> course, 9front will be what 9front will be.
>
> I'm not going to argue with the semantic subtleties of "bad" as you
> interpret it, but I will privately consider your judgement and interpret
> your postings with a bias parallel to the one you have displayed toward me
> so far.
>
> And I will not go away. Not by choice.
>
> Lucio.
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 4:37 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
>
>> On 5/15/24 04:02, Lucio De Re wrote:
>> > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the
>> consequences of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it
>> leads to undesirable divisions.
>>
>> I'm just trying to correct the misinformation you stated.
>> When you call the decision to drop fossil "bad", your email reads as a
>> persuasive argument for why things should change.
>> I was in turn explaining why this is not happening, and if someone wanted
>> that to change what would need to happen.
>>
>> >
>> > I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may
>> well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I
>> assure I am nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past
>> 20+ years would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans
>> in the past for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the
>> undercurrent ("because you are asking for other people to maintain your
>> software for you for free"), I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.
>> 
>> Are your intentions not to persuade someone in the 9front world that
>> fossil is worth adding back to the system?
>> 
>
>
> --
> Lucio De Re
> 2 Piet Retief St
> Kestell (Eastern Free State)
> 9860 South Africa
>
> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
> Cell: +27 83 251 5824
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 17:04:56 Don Bailey :
> Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years 
> enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was 
> always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest 
> outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical violin. I 
> brought an art mindset to an engineering ecosystem and used the opportunity 
> to learn as much as I could from the Plan 9 guys, who I definitely considered 
> my engineering heroes (and still do). I'll never forget the side 
> conversations with jmk about how to go about testing kernel code and him 
> bringing me "back down to Earth". One of many little encounters that honestly 
> have made me into a much more refined engineer today. Albeit, with still 
> quite a ways to grow :-) 

I always enjoy when people work with the system, and not only "on" it. Having 
actual users make most sense to me. I mean, it's an operating system. Having 
users from non-dev side (like sl, who's a writer) is also great.

That discussion type you describe is something I can see on the 9front mailing 
list and the 9fans discord. I really hope 9fans can turn back to that state 
eventually.

> I think it may just be harder for us "old heads" to understand how to fit in 
> with the modern communication style here. And I don't say this to be fiery or 
> disrespectful, but a lot of the discussions come off paranoid and 
> inflammatory while simultaneously accusing everyone *else* of being quite the 
> same. It's very strange and is a big reason a lot of people have left or just 
> choose to lurk.

That's why I like to end messages with the most neutral smiley I can find. And 
I also try to read messages that way. Text can be rude, and I often enough find 
myself reading a text message in a discussion thread like a shakespeare 
program: arguing, fighting. However, the writer almost never intended to mean 
that!

I also sometimes miss the fidonet messaging style. As far as I could experience 
it, it was always friendly and constructive.

> That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, 
> etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at 
> least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good 
> start... 

Agreeing is not necessary. There are many topics where we don't have to agree 
to be a community. For example, I'd like to see libxml in 9front, but the 
decision makers decided against it. More recently, people wished for fossil to 
come back to 9front, but the decision makers decided against it. Both have 
their reasons, and we can always fork off another fork and begin our own 
distribution, or just have our own local version with our changes.

Another example in the opposite direction: many users use various rio versions 
with theming etc. I don't want that. It's not part of the distribution (with 
very few exceptions), and it's 100% optional.

We don't always have to agree, but as long as we can discuss things in peace 
and exchange information we can still be a community.

sirjofri

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On 5/15/24 09:18, Don Bailey wrote:
> This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that 
> Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's 
> choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... 
> and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that 
> position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or 
> longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the 
> fashion he writes them currently. 

I'm not quite sure what his position has to do with anything honestly. I am 
sorry I lack some historical context.

> 
> Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is 
> not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time 
> trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a 
> troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a 
> useful path forward. 

I thought he was using a LLM because I had mentioned such in previous emails in 
this thread and was not corrected. Some posts have this improper summation
of what the previous mail said in the same way I've seen LLMs do. A lot of the 
discussions earlier were about adding bureaucratic process and what not
that it was hard for me to take seriously. I understand now that these were 
honest attempts at helping things, just not ones that I would
tend to agree with. Vic, I am sorry for attributing malice to what you were 
doing to help.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Lucio De Re

What makes you think I want Fossil back in 9front? I suggested that the
sources could be included in the distribution, so they would not fork-rot
as they are doing presently. It's always been the case that the Plan 9
distribution included "broken" sources that could not be compiled without
external support, but were interesting enough to be published. That changed
some when Alef was dropped and in fact I saved the Alef development stuff
and ported it to 3ed and 4ed because I disagreed with the decision. Note
that I made a sweeping generalisation, for simplicity, much was discarded
between 2ed and 4ed, and I find all that quite regrettable.

I am certain that Cinap had good reasons for removing Fossil, but I'm not
sure you have painted the entire picture for this audience. No matter, of
course, 9front will be what 9front will be.

I'm not going to argue with the semantic subtleties of "bad" as you
interpret it, but I will privately consider your judgement and interpret
your postings with a bias parallel to the one you have displayed toward me
so far.

And I will not go away. Not by choice.

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 4:37 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 04:02, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the
> consequences of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it
> leads to undesirable divisions.
>
> I'm just trying to correct the misinformation you stated.
> When you call the decision to drop fossil "bad", your email reads as a
> persuasive argument for why things should change.
> I was in turn explaining why this is not happening, and if someone wanted
> that to change what would need to happen.
>
> >
> > I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may
> well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I
> assure I am nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past
> 20+ years would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans
> in the past for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the
> undercurrent ("because you are asking for other people to maintain your
> software for you for free"), I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.
> 
> Are your intentions not to persuade someone in the 9front world that
> fossil is worth adding back to the system?
> 

-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years
enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was
always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the
biggest outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical
violin. I brought an art mindset to an engineering ecosystem and used the
opportunity to learn as much as I could from the Plan 9 guys, who I
definitely considered my engineering heroes (and still do). I'll never
forget the side conversations with jmk about how to go about testing kernel
code and him bringing me "back down to Earth". One of many little
encounters that honestly have made me into a much more refined engineer
today. Albeit, with still quite a ways to grow :-)

I think it may just be harder for us "old heads" to understand how to fit
in with the modern communication style here. And I don't say this to be
fiery or disrespectful, but a lot of the discussions come off paranoid and
inflammatory while simultaneously accusing everyone *else* of being quite
the same. It's very strange and is a big reason a lot of people have left
or just choose to lurk.

That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and
9legacy, etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision
making. It at least means people are still interested in building, and
that's a good start...

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:57 AM sirjofri 
wrote:

> 15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey :
> > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem
> that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always
> understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at
> certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was
> relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing
> list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written
> his emails in the fashion he writes them currently.
>
> I didn't know that he's been here for so long. It's sad that you both
> perceive the state of the mailing list community as it is.
>
> I can also totally see that vic is trying to help. I just see that the
> help he's providing in the last few months wasn't very helpful, and it also
> wasn't well perceived by all readers.
>
> However, I can also only judge from my perspective, and I'm only here for
> a few years now.
>
> > Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or
> is not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less
> time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be
> a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value,
> is a useful path forward.
>
> I personally consider it a valid move to ask a LLM for help writing mails.
> It's just weird to do that on a mailing list like this. I doubt that vic
> used an AI or anything (I mean, why would he lie).
>
> I can also see one or the other trolling attempt here, and I see only a
> few different reasons for that:
>
> (1) People are tired because they're always reading the same arguments and
> defending themselves for the 1000th time. It's understandable that somw
> develop a trolling tone.
>
> (2) People have fun trolling other people. In my opinion this belongs into
> human communication to some extent, but it shouldn't be endorsed and it
> should only happen in some safe space. On this mailing list, this is
> sometimes too much.
>
> (3) People are trolls. In this case we're out of luck.
>
> > There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial
> operations/offerings, but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever
> this mailing list has become.
> 
> (Still interested in learning about them.)
> 
> Sorry, I can't really perceive "whatever this mailing list has become".
> I'm not here for too long, and I probably don't see it as critical as you.
> I should note however that 9fans threads often are either non-existent (the
> list is very silent), half-dead or total drama (as this giga-thread).
> Compared to the 9front mailing list, there's almost only constructive work,
> feedback, steps forward.
> 
> I also notice that there's barely any software development going on here
> (almost no patches, no discussion). Is this because the mailing list
> evolved like that and people don't want to contribute in that environment,
> or is it the reason why it evolved like that?
> 
> Funnily enough, the 9fans discord community is very nice, helpful, I can
> barely see any trolling attempt at all (at least I can't remember anything
> like that).
> 
> sirjofri

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey :
> This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that 
> Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's 
> choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... 
> and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that 
> position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or 
> longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the 
> fashion he writes them currently.

I didn't know that he's been here for so long. It's sad that you both perceive 
the state of the mailing list community as it is.

I can also totally see that vic is trying to help. I just see that the help 
he's providing in the last few months wasn't very helpful, and it also wasn't 
well perceived by all readers.

However, I can also only judge from my perspective, and I'm only here for a few 
years now.

> Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is 
> not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time 
> trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a 
> troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a 
> useful path forward.

I personally consider it a valid move to ask a LLM for help writing mails. It's 
just weird to do that on a mailing list like this. I doubt that vic used an AI 
or anything (I mean, why would he lie).

I can also see one or the other trolling attempt here, and I see only a few 
different reasons for that:

(1) People are tired because they're always reading the same arguments and 
defending themselves for the 1000th time. It's understandable that somw develop 
a trolling tone.

(2) People have fun trolling other people. In my opinion this belongs into 
human communication to some extent, but it shouldn't be endorsed and it should 
only happen in some safe space. On this mailing list, this is sometimes too 
much.

(3) People are trolls. In this case we're out of luck.

> There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings, 
> but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has 
> become. 

(Still interested in learning about them.)

Sorry, I can't really perceive "whatever this mailing list has become". I'm not 
here for too long, and I probably don't see it as critical as you. I should 
note however that 9fans threads often are either non-existent (the list is very 
silent), half-dead or total drama (as this giga-thread). Compared to the 9front 
mailing list, there's almost only constructive work, feedback, steps forward.

I also notice that there's barely any software development going on here 
(almost no patches, no discussion). Is this because the mailing list evolved 
like that and people don't want to contribute in that environment, or is it the 
reason why it evolved like that?

Funnily enough, the 9fans discord community is very nice, helpful, I can barely 
see any trolling attempt at all (at least I can't remember anything like that).

sirjofri

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

2024-05-15 Thread ori

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my 
> idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened 
> to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. 

The communities are mending more or less fine, at least
among the people who actually hack on things. Code is
shared and imported in both directions, and discussion
is happening.

What is making things worse for you is back seat driving.
Starting from a position of contributing work might go
over well. Trying to tell me how I should spend my time
will require you to pay me.

For example:

> I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using 
> for years, circa 2006.

Why should I listen to you about how to heal fractured
communities, when you have a community so fractured, it
has one member, and was effectively a secret for 18 years?

A first step would be putting it out there. A second would
be listing the changes you've felt the need to make. Ideally
with some reasoning.

If that's out there, I'll happily look through, and if it
makes sense, I'll integrate parts into 9front. The 9legacy
folks may or may not, but at least they'll have the choice.

So:

> but I find it  challenging to contribute. 

If you want to change that, I think the first step is
starting with some humility. Instead of trying to make
other people into your unpaid interns, start by figuring
out how to contribute.

Find a bug. Write a patch. Send a fix. Work on a specific
problem. Realize that people will only pay attention after
work gets done.

But, I've said this before. I don't expect it will get
listened to this time either.


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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 04:02, Lucio De Re wrote:
> I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences of 
> omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to undesirable 
> divisions.

I'm just trying to correct the misinformation you stated.
When you call the decision to drop fossil "bad", your email reads as a 
persuasive argument for why things should change.
I was in turn explaining why this is not happening, and if someone wanted that 
to change what would need to happen.

> 
> I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may well 
> reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I assure I am 
> nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past 20+ years 
> would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans in the past 
> for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the undercurrent ("because 
> you are asking for other people to maintain your software for you for free"), 
> I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.

Are your intentions not to persuade someone in the 9front world that fossil is 
worth adding back to the system?

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem
that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always
understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at
certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was
relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing
list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written
his emails in the fashion he writes them currently.

Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is
not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less
time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be
a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value,
is a useful path forward.

There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings,
but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has
become.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:00 AM  wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote:
> > Hey vic,
> ...
> > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again
> > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely
> > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of
> > earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you.
> > Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but
> > for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may
> > revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away.
> >
> > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones
> > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their
> > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to
> > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for
> > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the
> > documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level
> > organization when there is no top-level.
> 
> Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message.
> 
> I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White,
> which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been
> rushed and barely revised.
> 
> I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on
> them as it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I
> didn't want to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next.  I see
> that the current team is very happy with the status quo.
> 
> If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit.
> I should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a
> long time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the
> drama I've experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it
> must be to contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just
> looking back on the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh**
> 
> I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and
> outdated rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough
> to off put someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which
> results in both hazing and a cancel culture.  I am not trying to persuade
> you or anyone on 9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see.
> I've worked on 160 million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel
> issues.  I know this is not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are
> issues here has their head in the sand. I hope you take my comments as
> constructive. The intention of my comments to make things better.
> 
> You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to
> know early.
> 
> Again, thank you very much for your advice.  Let me share a letter with
> you that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans.
> Thank you and goodbye.
> 
> Hi Bakul,
> 
> Thanks for reaching out.  I trust you are well.
> 
> I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using
> for years, circa 2006.   9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it
> challenging to contribute.  However, the 9legacy community has
> been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine.  I am
> grateful for past help.
> 
> Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and
> 9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible.
> 
> Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role
> in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become
> 9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential
> opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational
> members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I
> contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the
> division and foster unity among the communities before my time
> ends.  I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago
> and the community would had been in a

Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote:
> Hey vic,
...
> Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again 
> carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely 
> understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of 
> earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. 
> Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but 
> for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may 
> revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away.
>
> Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones 
> organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their 
> stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to 
> organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for 
> bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the 
> documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level 
> organization when there is no top-level.

Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message. 

I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White, 
which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been 
rushed and barely revised.

I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on them as 
it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I didn't want 
to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next.  I see that the current 
team is very happy with the status quo. 

If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit. I 
should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a long 
time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the drama I've 
experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it must be to 
contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just looking back on 
the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh** 

I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and outdated 
rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough to off put 
someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which results in 
both hazing and a cancel culture.  I am not trying to persuade you or anyone on 
9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see.  I've worked on 160 
million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel issues.  I know this is 
not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are issues here has their head 
in the sand. I hope you take my comments as constructive. The intention of my 
comments to make things better. 

You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to know 
early. 

Again, thank you very much for your advice.  Let me share a letter with you 
that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans. 
Thank you and goodbye. 

Hi Bakul,

Thanks for reaching out.  I trust you are well. 

I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using 
for years, circa 2006.   9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it 
challenging to contribute.  However, the 9legacy community has 
been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine.  I am 
grateful for past help.

Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and 
9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible.

Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role 
in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become 
9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential 
opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational 
members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I 
contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the 
division and foster unity among the communities before my time 
ends.  I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago 
and the community would had been in a better state today.  That 
is my biggest regret that I have.  That is one reason why I isolate
myself.  I am just not a good mediator nor communicator.

Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my 
idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened 
to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. 

Kind regards,
Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread vester . thacker

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 22:18, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> Fromm Crunchbase:
>
> Nantahala Outdoor Center — Nantahala Outdoor Center is a sports company 
> offering whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and flatwater paddling.
>
> Nantahala Bank & Trust Company — Nantahala Bank & Trust Company is a 
> financial service company offering & lending mortgages and loans and 
> other financial services.
>
> Nantahala Capital Management — Nantahala Capital Management is a hedge fund.
>
> Nantahala Real Estate Company — Nantahala Real Estate Company provides 
> property management, consulting, home selling, and buying services.
>
> GHSS Manathala — GHSS Manathala is a secondary education school.
>
>
>
> On 5/15/24 01:48, John the Scott wrote:
>> finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?
>> 
>> -john
>> 
>> On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:42 AM  wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.
>>>
>>> There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and 
>>> using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The 
>>> companies have been in existence since 2020.
>>>
>>> Nantahala Holdings, LLC
>>> Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)
>>>
>>> Vic
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:
 Hey all,

 Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:

 You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
 of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.

> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken 
> from open source projects by copy and paste.
 [1]

 I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
 licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
 should!).

 So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
 Who knows...

 I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
 enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.

 [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
 people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
 a few people.)

 ---

 About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
 products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
 heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
 companies who actually use plan 9.

 Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
 nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
 single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
 that could evolve into commercial products.

 I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
 technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
 searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
 (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
 option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
 DM).

 sirjofri
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
> -- 
>
> *Wes Kussmaul*
>
> *Reliable Identities, Inc.*
> an Authenticity Enterprise
> 738 Main Street
> Waltham, MA 02451 USA
> t: +1 781 790 1674
> m: +1 781 330 1881
> e: w...@reliableid.com 

Great, just pile on the hazing guys. You know how to make someone feel 
unwelcomed.

Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread ori

Quoth Lucio De Re :
> I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences
> of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to
> undesirable divisions.

Yes, in theory it would have been nice if we had people who had
volunteered to maintain it.


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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

2024-05-15 Thread ori

Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with
> each community.  For example, providing clear instructions on how to
> submit feature and bug requests.  This is something I haven’t seen
> mentioned recently.  It would be beneficial for each community to
> explain what is acceptable in these interactions.

Section 2.4 and 2.5 of the FQA: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa2.html#2.4

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Wes Kussmaul




Fromm Crunchbase:

Nantahala Outdoor Center — Nantahala Outdoor Center is a sports company 
offering whitewater rafting, mountain biking, and flatwater paddling.


Nantahala Bank & Trust Company — Nantahala Bank & Trust Company is a 
financial service company offering & lending mortgages and loans and 
other financial services.


Nantahala Capital Management — Nantahala Capital Management is a hedge fund.

Nantahala Real Estate Company — Nantahala Real Estate Company provides 
property management, consulting, home selling, and buying services.


GHSS Manathala — GHSS Manathala is a secondary education school.



On 5/15/24 01:48, John the Scott wrote:

finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?

-john

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:42 AM  wrote:


Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.

There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and using 
a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The companies have 
been in existence since 2020.

Nantahala Holdings, LLC
Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)

Vic


On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:

Hey all,

Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:

You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.


9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken from 
open source projects by copy and paste.

[1]

I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
should!).

So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
Who knows...

I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.

[1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
a few people.)

---

About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
companies who actually use plan 9.

Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
that could evolve into commercial products.

I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
(Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
DM).

sirjofri






--

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an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
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e: w...@reliableid.com 

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 19:35, hiro wrote:
> it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White

Sure, I'll show you an example.

It was one of the best scholarships available. You should have seen my writing 
before. ;-)

Uriel admired Strunk & White. Today, many colleges follow the Purdue Writing 
Lab's guidance. Students learn the seven styles described by Strunk & White.

Vic

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:18 AM  wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to
> > understand that you make everybody uncomfortable.
> > Hope this helps.
> 
> Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll 
> nor am I that clever. However, I can respond in kind if provoked. I'm human 
> after all. I'll be frank and set boundaries if things get too far out of 
> hand. Overall, I much prefer fostering friendly interactions in 9fans. I do 
> not see the need for conflict and ill-will. I'm not attempting to create 
> problems nor make anyone feel uncomfortable. However, I'll gladly respond in 
> kind. If you want to call me a troll for responding in kind that is fine. 
> However, please be fair minded and consider my perspective as well.
> 
> Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how 
> interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to 
> empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and 
> bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There 
> is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't 
> understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than 
> misunderstanding.
> 
> Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and 
> an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I 
> make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer 
> messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Vic

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

15.05.2024 11:17:46 vic.thac...@fastmail.fm:
> Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how 
> interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to 
> empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and 
> bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There 
> is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't 
> understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than 
> misunderstanding.

In this specific case, I think it was a misunderstanding on your side. Lucio 
mentioned a problem and asked for solutions. You understood it as a bug report 
that was not obviously flagged as a bug report. Lucio clearly stated in the 
last mail that he didn't ask for anything. He was merely asking about some 
problem he had. In my opinion that's a big difference.

Read also this: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa2.html#2.4

> It is possible you simply don’t know what you’re doing. If you do not 
> understand how something is done in 9front or how it works, and can’t figure 
> out how to resolve the problem using the manual pages, [...]
> Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and 
> an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I 
> make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer 
> messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well.

I understand that. That's also one of the reasons why my mails are usually so 
long. Keep in mind though that people here are reading mails because they want 
to, and they all try to understand them.

I'm reminded of a friend who's working for the German government. He was 
sending out a mail with a spreadsheet to some colleague with the wish to fill 
it out. That colleague asked back multiple times: first, if that mail was sent 
to her on purpose and if she's the correct recipient. Second, if she is 
supposed to fill out that spreadsheet. Third, if she should fill out that one 
specific column that is described as "please fill out this column". Those 
people aren't here on this mailing list, but I would totally understand 
extremely verbose (-v) mails like yours if you managed people like that for 
many years!

I'm glad I don't have a job like that...

sirjofri

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 14:48, John the Scott wrote:
> finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?
>
> -john

Yes, that is by design.  Working with a small number of clients is preferred.   

https://nantahala.systems is the site that mentions Plan 9.  It deals with the 
hardware and software aspect.  

https://nantahalaoperations.com is a courtesy site for clients.  Being a very 
small company, face to face pre-sale interactions are preferred for type of 
clients I deal with.   

Nantahala Holdings LLC does not have a website as it is not required. Since 
taking it down, there has been a reduction in the amount of bothersome 
solicitations by Citi and others. 

Vic

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

2024-05-15 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin

>On Wed, 15 May 2024 10:38:53 +0200 (GMT+02:00)
>sirjofri  wrote:
>
> Hey vic,
> 
> There are a few different issues I see with your mails:

> Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones
> organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their
> stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to
> organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for
> bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the
> documentation. This should help the community much more than
> top-level organization when there is no top-level.

As a long-time lurker, I'd like to offer the following URLs as
evidence the preceding paragraph should be taken as culturally
normative:
https://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
https://catb.org/~esr/faqs/loginataka.html

This is the way hackers work, together, on building a better world.

-- 
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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to 
> understand that you make everybody uncomfortable.
> Hope this helps.

Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll nor 
am I that clever. However, I can respond in kind if provoked. I'm human after 
all. I'll be frank and set boundaries if things get too far out of hand. 
Overall, I much prefer fostering friendly interactions in 9fans. I do not see 
the need for conflict and ill-will. I'm not attempting to create problems nor 
make anyone feel uncomfortable. However, I'll gladly respond in kind. If you 
want to call me a troll for responding in kind that is fine. However, please be 
fair minded and consider my perspective as well. 

Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how 
interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to empirical 
evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and bug requests 
because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There is nothing 
wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't understand why that 
would be a problem. Clarity is better than misunderstanding.

Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and an 
M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I make 
an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer 
messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well. 

Kind regards,

Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

> I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences of 
> omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to undesirable 
> divisions.

there's only one division, not in my control, between the people that
actually run plan 9 (that includes 9front), and the people who run
plan9port (not 9front).

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Lucio De Re

I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences
of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to
undesirable divisions.

I do find it tiresome that you keep ascribing intentions to me that may
well reflect precisely how YOU would feel and react in my position. I
assure I am nothing like that and I'm sure my history on 9fans for the past
20+ years would reflect that. But then again, people have abandoned 9fans
in the past for reasons not dissimilar from these; I can read the
undercurrent ("because you are asking for other people to maintain your
software for you for free"), I am not impolite enough to respond in kind.

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 8:05 AM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/14/24 23:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
> interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
> learning, at our country's expense.
> >
> > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
> (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
> version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
> the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
> >
> > My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not
> included in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by
> arbitrary (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not
> even know about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad
> enough?
> The decision was not made by an arbitrary contributor on a whim, it was
> decided after people maintaining 9front got sick
> and tired of dealing with people's data getting minced. Effort was put in
> to the two (and soon to be three) other
> file systems that have had a much better reliability track record. The
> intent was to nudge people away from
> using what was deemed buggy software. If you want this to change then
> either you or someone else needs to step up and maintain
> the software. You are asking for 9front to take on the burden of
> maintaining an additional old buggy filesystem
> because it makes your life a tiny bit easier?
>
> A bit hard to tell from your wording but either you are saying the
> contributor became a "noncontributor" by deleting
> fossil or are you accusing the person who deleted fossil as being
> generally a "noncontributor"?
> If you had spent even 10 seconds looking at the git history you would have
> seen that the one to pull the plug and
> delete fossil was cinap and not some random passerby.
>
> Do you not see the irony here? You, a most certain "noncontributor", are
> demanding that we do what you want without any intent of doing any of the
> work yourself.
> Why can you not just tar up your files and put them on a supported
> filesystem? Why are we still having this discussion?
>
> >
> > I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
> "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
> on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
> rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
> Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
> to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
> so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty
> > pointless effort, but I know I can do it, with sufficient application,
> it is no longer lost or teetering on edge of the abyss.
>
> Yes because you are asking for other people to maintain your software for
> you for free. 9front maintainers do not want to do
> this, so the reaction is going to be to do it yourself. I don't know why
> this is seen as a surprising outcome.
>
> On 5/14/24 18:19, michaelian ennis wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone
> to me.  It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive.
> 
> I agree, I would like to have positive interactions towards working on
> solutions to current problems. I would much prefer if conversations
> trended towards these type of topics. We seem to have no issue keeping
> things like this at IWP9 (for the most part).
> 


-- 
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2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Hey vic,

There are a few different issues I see with your mails:

First and most obvious, they sound like they're generated by some LLM (playing 
captain obvious here). People don't like to see this, it might be related to 
some language barrier. That impression is also supported by the content.

Which leads to the second point: the content of your mails make me feel like 
you feel the urge/need to help. While help is generally appreciated, it 
depends. If you can only help by organizing stuff then organizing "the one 
single plan 9 system" doesn't lead to anything because that doesn't exist. 
9legacy and 9front are both organized by their contributors, who all work for 
free. No money, no demands, no big organization that tells them what to do. It 
would be better if you find another way to help, preferably one that doesn't 
incorporate mails so long that nobody wants to read them with content that 
nobody wants to know.

It is generally fine to share patches and also bug reports to the mailing lists 
(yes there's a separate 9front mailing list for 9front topics). For 9front, 
there's even a section in the fqa about bug reports. Note that all bug reports 
suck in some way, and people who work on the systems do it for free. Also, not 
all apparent bugs are bugs, so keep using plan 9 systems until you understand 
how it is supposed to work (or ask).

In general, the people on our mailing lists know how to work with each other. 
You'll occasionally see discussion about patches (especially on 9front), as 
well as about other topics. There are also other channels of communication 
(irc, mostly). Be assured that people communicate with each other, as far as 
they are willing to. I've never seen so much interaction between 9front and 
9legacy as in the last few years.

Other than that, your mails often enough just state the obvious. People read 
between the lines to understand what the person means. This sometimes fails to 
work, but that's just part of human communication. Your ability to summarize a 
mailing list thread about three different topics into a list of 7 user story 
action points is not well perceived, which I can rotally understand: it doesn't 
help anyone.

My advice would be (not sure if it helps):

Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again carefully and 
think about the people reading it. They most likely understand as much as you, 
and they have all the track record of earlier discussions, so they very likely 
understand more than you. Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a 
good reason, but for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the 
recipient, you may revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away.

Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones organizing. 
Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their stuff without any 
contribution. If you can write software, try to organize yourself and give 
something back to the community. Hunt for bugs and fix them, or write tools 
that helps people, or improve the documentation. This should help the community 
much more than top-level organization when there is no top-level.

I hope this mail finds you well, please read it with some smile. I don't want 
to hurt anyone, and text can be rude sometimes.

sirjofri

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

2024-05-15 Thread plan6

It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to 
understand that you make everybody uncomfortable.
Hope this helps.
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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 15:11, Jacob Moody wrote:
> At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic 
> or if you actually think this junk
> is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta 
> garbage as anything else than a waste
> of everyone else's inbox and time.

No, I am not being ironic at all. I understand that you do not know me. I am a 
seriously minded 20-year public servant, and I once held Q access 
authorization, where everything is taken extremely seriously. Since retiring, I 
am still adapting to civilian life. Perhaps this explains why my son has me 
listed as Rambo on his mobile phone. I also have a very dry sense of humor.

A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with each 
community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to submit feature 
and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen mentioned recently. It would 
be beneficial for each community to explain what is acceptable in these 
interactions.

In lieu of that, I’ll simply post for clarity in the hope that it piques 
interest and fosters further conversations.

Hope this helps.

Vic

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Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic or if 
you actually think this junk
is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta garbage as 
anything else than a waste
of everyone else's inbox and time.

On 5/15/24 00:55, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote:
> Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running 
> under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and 
> assistance to make this possible!  I only say this as a person who wants to 
> celebrate successes.
> 
> FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to 
> address each point effectively on a separate thread.  Here are Lucio’s 
> requests, organized by topic:

I find it very funny that your LLM summarized Lucio's mail as a list of demands.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/14/24 23:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your interpretation 
> that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy learning, at our 
> country's expense.
> 
> I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me (and 
> others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical" version 
> rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from the above 
> discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
> 
> My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included 
> in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary 
> (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know about 
> it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?
The decision was not made by an arbitrary contributor on a whim, it was decided 
after people maintaining 9front got sick
and tired of dealing with people's data getting minced. Effort was put in to 
the two (and soon to be three) other
file systems that have had a much better reliability track record. The intent 
was to nudge people away from
using what was deemed buggy software. If you want this to change then either 
you or someone else needs to step up and maintain
the software. You are asking for 9front to take on the burden of maintaining an 
additional old buggy filesystem
because it makes your life a tiny bit easier?

A bit hard to tell from your wording but either you are saying the contributor 
became a "noncontributor" by deleting
fossil or are you accusing the person who deleted fossil as being generally a 
"noncontributor"?
If you had spent even 10 seconds looking at the git history you would have seen 
that the one to pull the plug and
delete fossil was cinap and not some random passerby.

Do you not see the irony here? You, a most certain "noncontributor", are 
demanding that we do what you want without any intent of doing any of the work 
yourself.
Why can you not just tar up your files and put them on a supported filesystem? 
Why are we still having this discussion?

> 
> I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what "I" 
> need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick on 
> any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my rather 
> vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy. Instead, I got 
> a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able to contribute. 
> Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, so right now I 
> haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty
> pointless effort, but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is 
> no longer lost or teetering on edge of the abyss.

Yes because you are asking for other people to maintain your software for you 
for free. 9front maintainers do not want to do
this, so the reaction is going to be to do it yourself. I don't know why this 
is seen as a surprising outcome.

On 5/14/24 18:19, michaelian ennis wrote:
>
>
>
> The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to 
> me.  It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive.

I agree, I would like to have positive interactions towards working on 
solutions to current problems. I would much prefer if conversations
trended towards these type of topics. We seem to have no issue keeping things 
like this at IWP9 (for the most part).

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Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]

Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running 
under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and 
assistance to make this possible!  I only say this as a person who wants to 
celebrate successes.

FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to 
address each point effectively on a separate thread.  Here are Lucio’s 
requests, organized by topic:

Canonical Version of Fossil

Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of 
Fossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicate 
usage and development.

Inclusion of Sources in Distributions

Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9front 
distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions made by 
a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware of the 
exclusions.

9legacy Boot and Installation

USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it’s essential to enable it to 
boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with support for 
both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-friendliness.

SSH2 Implementation

Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work in 
his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has been 
difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation would 
be greatly appreciated.

Cryptography and Security

Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been 
enlightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools like 
SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be beneficial.

Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL

Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with 
PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex, 
and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable.

Porting and Updating Tools

OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them 
regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the latest 
build options and updating these tools would be beneficial.
Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure better 
functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it.

Licensing and Legal Support

Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rarity 
of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn’t paid much attention to 
licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice and support 
to ensure adherence to licensing requirements.

I hope you find this useful.

Vic

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote:
> If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
> interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
> learning, at our country's expense.
>
> I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
> (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
> version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
> the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.
>
> My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included
> in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary
> (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know
> about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?
>
> I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
> "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
> on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
> rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
> Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
> to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
> so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort,
> but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost
> or teetering on edge of the abyss.
>
> As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for
> many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own
> Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of
> 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely
> and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version
> of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both
> Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and
> I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from
> Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable
> with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum
> that support my impressions, I

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread John the Scott

finding nothing on google for Nantahala.  any links?

-john

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:42 AM  wrote:
>
> Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.
>
> There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and 
> using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The companies 
> have been in existence since 2020.
>
> Nantahala Holdings, LLC
> Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)
>
> Vic
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:
> >
> > You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
> > of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.
> >
> >> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
> >> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken 
> >> from open source projects by copy and paste.
> > [1]
> >
> > I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
> > licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
> > should!).
> >
> > So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
> > Who knows...
> >
> > I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
> > enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.
> >
> > [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
> > people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
> > a few people.)
> >
> > ---
> >
> > About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
> > products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
> > heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
> > companies who actually use plan 9.
> >
> > Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
> > nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
> > single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
> > that could evolve into commercial products.
> >
> > I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
> > technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
> > searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
> > (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
> > option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
> > DM).
> >
> > sirjofri



-- 
Fast is fine, But accuracy is final.
You must learn to be slow in a hurry.
- Wyatt Earp

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread Lucio De Re

If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your
interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy
learning, at our country's expense.

I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me
(and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical"
version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from
the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment.

My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included
in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary
(non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know
about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough?

I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what
"I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick
on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my
rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy.
Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able
to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me,
so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort,
but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost
or teetering on edge of the abyss.

As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for
many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own
Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of
9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely
and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version
of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both
Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and
I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from
Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable
with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum
that support my impressions, I want to look at bringing "the other Fossil"
on board using PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite.
Don't hold your breath, though.

One more point, but I may raise more later, seeing that there is a claimed
interest in how others use the generic Plan 9 platform: I long ago ported
the OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and I continually use them to access remote
directories with them from a scrappy rc shell script. I noted only recently
that the OpenLDAP distribution has an option to build only the tools and
library, which vindicates my approach which happened rather
serendipitously. I need to investigate that further, my version of the tool
I think goes back to 2.3 or thereabouts. Graphviz I have also been unable
to promote past a very early version, but it works quite nicely for my
occasional use of Dot.

Let me point out also that I have paid absolutely no attention to licencing
requirements; where I live the culture remains that of "sanction busting"
from the Apartheid era and IP prosecutions don't seem to occur very often.
I do think that P9F would be kept quite busy assisting those of us that may
need legal advice or assistance and in some respects I think that role
would be beneficial to all of us - including myself - and it seems a role
that P9F is already playing. Just my impression, of course, but earlier
discussion does bring that to mind.

In short: I totally agree with Ian, we are responsible for what and how
gets discussed here.

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 1:20 AM michaelian ennis 
wrote:

>
>
> > On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> > M
> > This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".
> 
> There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem glaringly
> missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. There
> were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process.
> 
> I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right
> place. Perhaps it is not my place at all.
> 
> The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled
> with an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” moments. Yes I’m
> looking at you boombox.
> 
> What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on
> different coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent
> discussions’ beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product
> direction.
> 
> Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which
> the cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we shouldn’t”s and
> noticing when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there’s
> that.
> 
> In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived
> but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones
> were ignored.
> 
> The flurries of traffic on this list often

Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread michaelian ennis

> On May 14, 2024, at 12:07, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> M
> This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".

There were many lessons from “The Mythical Man Month” that seem glaringly 
missing from management decisions during those days. It was shocking. There 
were other more perplexing oddities too in the decision making process.  

I have much to say about the topic but this is perhaps not the right place. 
Perhaps it is not my place at all.

The VC years have a cartoonish character to them that seemed to be filled with 
an unlimited supply of “Wait, we’re doing what?” moments. Yes I’m looking at 
you boombox.

What I think is relevant here is that even the plan9 engineers on different 
coasts seemed to get divided by details not unlike the recent discussions’ 
beginnings. This didn’t help win arguments about product direction.

Then there was me just always bitching about Fred Brooks, or ways in which the 
cli was inconsistent, full of “we should”s and “we shouldn’t”s and noticing 
when I was right in dissent more than when I was wrong. So there’s that.

In some possible universes _that_ Coraid thrived 
but they are not ones where where new voices weren’t heard or old ones were 
ignored.

The flurries of traffic on this list often seem to have a negative tone to me.  
It means a lot to me when the conversations are supportive. 

I hope this recent activity continues on as more collaborative conversations.  
Nobody joins this list who isn’t interested in participating somehow.  Let’s 
not shut them down.

Ian

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread Wes Kussmaul





On 5/14/24 15:05, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:


 
I don't know if black holes do exist but I'm convinced that there are

already, out there, software implementations of black holes: things
that will collapse under their own weight.


The biggest black hole of them all: https://silibandia.com

--

*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA





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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread tlaronde

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 06:54:02PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> [html edited]
>
> coraid has an interesting history.
> https://www.information-age.com/silicon-valley-can-kill-business-man-scolded-machine-6832/

This is another illustration of "The Mythical Man-Month".

I still think there is place for a small, understandable system,
providing too features that other systems try not to master, but to
add to a pile of things that is already too huge---look at the
problems and the amount of code appearing now on the kernel side for
Unices for KMSDRM (already more or less considered a dead end, because
the graphical terminal is almost anecdoctical for the GPU).

How could such OSes be a correct fundation for reliable data
storage?---and even for something else in fact.

I don't know what is the trend in U.S., but in France, as usual, "big"
companies get to "cloud" like sheeps, not for any technical reason
but because it was fashionable and this gained managers photos in
magazines for doing so.

And they had been selling their data centers, firing their staff and so
on and promising costs cuts and incredible efficiency.

Neither costs reduction, nor security or efficiency have been
achieved.

And they are now silently trying to restore data centers of their own,
trying to get back what they, in fact, paid to give.

Because of war everything will collapse and the current insane beasts:
the software dinosaurs, will not survive.

I don't know if black holes do exist but I'm convinced that there are
already, out there, software implementations of black holes: things
that will collapse under their own weight.

There is still a chance for Plan9 based/like systems.
--
Thierry Laronde
http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89 250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 02:54, Steve Simon wrote:
> coraid has an interesting history.
>
> Brantley-Coile.jpg
> How Silicon Valley can kill your business, by a man scolded by the 
> machine 
> 
> information-age.com 
> 
>  
> 
>
> Brantley now has the Coraid name back too and is using plan9 to this day.
>
> -Steve

Thank you, Steve, for sharing that. There are some valuable lessons in the 
article. The best lessons are often learned from experiences of others.  It’s 
wonderful to learn that Coraid is still thriving, and that is something worth 
celebrating.  

If Brantley Coile still reads 9fans, thank you sir for being an inspiration to 
me and many others.  

Vester "Vic" Thacker

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread Steve Simon

coraid has an interesting history.How Silicon Valley can kill your business, by a man scolded by the machineinformation-age.comBrantley now has the Coraid name back too and is using plan9 to this day.-SteveOn 14 May 2024, at 5:39 pm, arn...@skeeve.com wrote:"B. Atticus Grobe"  wrote:As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 fortheir network storage systems, although it's possible their newer productsdon't utilize it.They still do. See his posts on LinkedIn.Arnold--9fans: 9fansPermalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M978e977ab934f741265275d1Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 01:30, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> Oh, I think it's great that people are using it. I simply find the
> obfuscatory nature of your presentation to be suspicious. It is generally
> considered to be good etiquette to disclose affiliations to a company
> during discussions. Failure to do so is not necessarily damning, but is
> certainly a 'red flag', at least for me.

Sure, I see your point. It's similar to when people post without using 
their real names. While it's not necessarily incriminating, it does raise 
a 'red flag' and can be a cause for suspicion.

Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread arnold

"B. Atticus Grobe"  wrote:

> As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 for
> their network storage systems, although it's possible their newer products
> don't utilize it.

They still do. See his posts on LinkedIn.

Arnold

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread B. Atticus Grobe

Oh, I think it's great that people are using it. I simply find the
obfuscatory nature of your presentation to be suspicious. It is generally
considered to be good etiquette to disclose affiliations to a company
during discussions. Failure to do so is not necessarily damning, but is
certainly a 'red flag', at least for me.

As for companies that use 9, Coraid (Brantley Coile) was invested in 9 for
their network storage systems, although it's possible their newer products
don't utilize it. He is responsible for vblade(8) and I believe also for
the kernel AoE driver. (I haven't verified the origin of the kernel driver;
corrections welcome.)

On Tue, May 14, 2024, 11:04  wrote:

> On Tue, May 14, 2024, at 23:12, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> > Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
> > Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
> > 'this is my company.'
> 
> The intention of this thread was to highlight which companies are using
> Plan 9. I mentioned two companies as examples.
> 
> The use of Plan 9 should be celebrated. It's surprising to encounter
> complaints about its utilization.
> 
> Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Tue, May 14, 2024, at 23:12, B. Atticus Grobe wrote:
> Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
> Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
> 'this is my company.'

The intention of this thread was to highlight which companies are using Plan 9. 
I mentioned two companies as examples.

The use of Plan 9 should be celebrated. It's surprising to encounter complaints 
about its utilization.

Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-14 Thread B. Atticus Grobe

Taking the time to go through that, it's literally just you; your LLC.
Interesting the you didn't feel the need for transparency and simply say
'this is my company.'

This certainly fails to inspire even the least bit of confidence in me.

On Mon, May 13, 2024, 16:19  wrote:

> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 21:56, hiro wrote:
> > citation needed
> 
> 
> https://sosenterprise.sd.gov/BusinessServices/Business/FictitiousDetail.aspx?CN=078243101203005056228191044241171252181195229085

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 21:56, hiro wrote:
> citation needed

https://sosenterprise.sd.gov/BusinessServices/Business/FictitiousDetail.aspx?CN=078243101203005056228191044241171252181195229085

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Yes, that is curious.  

On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 22:59, G B wrote:
> Curiously, I searched for Nantalala Systems and found an https link to 
> NANTAHALA SYSTEMS. *BEWARE: SEEMS TO BE BOGUS* 
> Under "store" they list two workstations they sell, both listed as 
> "sold out" that are 
>   
>- OS: FreeBSD with ᴁBSD customizations
>
> Under ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) installation media for x86™ computers and ᴁOS (aka 
> ᴁ9) installation media for Raspberry PI™ computers there are "Learn 
> more" links that lead to "page not found."
> At the bottom of the page:   
>- ᴁBSD (AMD64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE.
>- GhostBSD is based on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE.
>- ᴁBSD (AARCH64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 15-CURRENT.
>- ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) is based on Plan 9.
>
> On the Support page, if you happened to somehow purchase one of those 
> workstations and need assistance, you need to contact them the only way 
> possible:      Email: hello@nantahala.systems
>
> Netcraft shows the hosting country as Australia. The domain registrar 
> is unknown. The SSL/TLS certificate issued by Let's Encrypt is for 
> "From Mar 14 2024 to Jun 12 2024 (2 months, 4 weeks)" .
>
>
>
> On Monday, May 13, 2024 at 07:58:20 AM CDT, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> 
> wrote:  
> 
>  citation needed
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 1:58 PM  wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote:
>> > how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned
>> > anywhere before?
>> 
>> I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-)
>> 
>> Vic
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-13 Thread G B via 9fans

 Curiously, I searched for Nantalala Systems and found an https link to 
NANTAHALA SYSTEMS. *BEWARE: SEEMS TO BE BOGUS* 
Under "store" they list two workstations they sell, both listed as "sold out" 
that are 
   
   - OS: FreeBSD with ᴁBSD customizations

Under ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) installation media for x86™ computers and ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) 
installation media for Raspberry PI™ computers there are "Learn more" links 
that lead to "page not found."
At the bottom of the page:   
   - ᴁBSD (AMD64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE.
   - GhostBSD is based on FreeBSD 14.0-STABLE.
   - ᴁBSD (AARCH64) is ᴁBSD customizations on FreeBSD 15-CURRENT.
   - ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9) is based on Plan 9.

On the Support page, if you happened to somehow purchase one of those 
workstations and need assistance, you need to contact them the only way 
possible:      Email: hello@nantahala.systems

Netcraft shows the hosting country as Australia. The domain registrar is 
unknown. The SSL/TLS certificate issued by Let's Encrypt is for "From Mar 14 
2024 to Jun 12 2024 (2 months, 4 weeks)" .



On Monday, May 13, 2024 at 07:58:20 AM CDT, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:  
 
 citation needed

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 1:58 PM  wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote:
> > how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned
> > anywhere before?
> 
> I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-)
> 
> Vic
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-13 Thread hiro

citation needed

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 1:58 PM  wrote:
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote:
> > how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned
> > anywhere before?
> 
> I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-)
> 
> Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 18:38, hiro wrote:
> how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned
> anywhere before?

I don't spend my time trolling 9fans. ;-)

Vic

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-13 Thread hiro

how did you find out about this company, i never saw it mentioned
anywhere before?

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 10:43 AM  wrote:
>
> Thank you, Sirjofri, nice idea.
>
> There are two private U.S. companies that are investing, developing, and 
> using a closed source Plan 9 distribution called ᴁOS (aka ᴁ9).  The companies 
> have been in existence since 2020.
>
> Nantahala Holdings, LLC
> Nantahala Operations, LLC (dba Nantahala Systems)
>
> Vic
>
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 17:10, sirjofri wrote:
> > Hey all,
> >
> > Just about one topic mentioned by ibrahim:
> >
> > You mentioned that 9front can't be plan 9 in your perspective because
> > of this licensing and the "origin" of the licensing.
> >
> >> 9front isn't plan9 from my perspective. Plan 9 is the final release with 
> >> patches for the files from sources I can be sure that those aren't taken 
> >> from open source projects by copy and paste.
> > [1]
> >
> > I would make a big difference between what plan 9 is and what the
> > licenses are. Software doesn't care about licenses. People do (and they
> > should!).
> >
> > So what is plan 9 even? Can we compare it to UNIX™ or unix or posix?
> > Who knows...
> >
> > I guess I could say a lot more about that topic, but I guess that's
> > enough and you can puzzle everything else yourself.
> >
> > [1] (I would be very careful with such bold words. I feel like 9front
> > people have heard this phrase a lot and it's probably very thin ice for
> > a few people.)
> >
> > ---
> >
> > About another topic: you mentioned that plan 9 is in use for commercial
> > products, and you explicitly mention german medical sensors. I've never
> > heard about that and I'd like to learn more, as well as about other
> > companies who actually use plan 9.
> >
> > Everything I always hear in the industry is that plan 9 is outdated and
> > nobody uses it and nobody wants to hear about it. I only know of a
> > single company that uses it (coraid), plus a few little projects by taw
> > that could evolve into commercial products.
> >
> > I sometimes thought about building a list of companies that use plan 9
> > technology, just so people can get involved with them, and now that I'm
> > searching for a new job that's even more interesting for me personally.
> > (Not sure if I want to do plan 9 as $dayjob, but I could see it as an
> > option.) That topic should end up in a new thread however (or even a
> > DM).
> >
> > sirjofri

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[9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.