Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Forgeot Eric]

>I don't like %%midi transpose, because
>transposition is nothing to do with midi,

I forget to talk about that, an advantage of BarFly is, if I
understood well, it can transpose either the notation, or the
sound, or both. The %%midi transpose is limited because it make
transpose both (of course it was designed 1st to fit abc2midi's
needs). For guitar notation for ex., the notation is written one
8ve higher than the real pitch. I think with abcm2ps for my guitar
partitions I wrote K:C treble for keeping that correct (I can't
really remember how I made it display correcly). 
Maybe it could be possible to have in addition a %%transpose with
several way of transposition : midi only, midi + display, display
only.


___
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers]ABC sects

[John Chambers]

Bernard Hill writes:
| In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, I. Oppenheim writes
| >On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
| >> For that matter, I've  often  wished  that  abc  officially
| >> supported a bare :  in the middle of a staff. In some other
| >> kinds of music, this is used inside  long  measures,  as  a
| >> sort of weak, "editorial" bar line
| >
| >This is a completely different matter.
| >
| >You're talking about having dotted bars and dotted
| >slurs for editorial purposes. Both are indeed quite
| >useful.
|
| I'm not sure - is he? What about split bars, ie ones where the first
| part is on stave 1 and the second half on stave 2. Stave 1 has no end
| barline.

No, Irwin was right.  Split bars should just be drawn without  a  bar
line  at  the end of the staff.  But consider for example the opening
bars of this well-known work of Bach:

X: 1
T: Sonata in G for two flutes and continuo
T: BWV 1039
C: J.S.Bach (1685-1750)
N: Also published as a sonata for viola da gambo and cembalo.
N: Voice 2 is the gamba part.
Q: "Adagio"
M: 12/8
L: 1/16
K: G
V: 1
[| d24- | d12- d2 c6 B4- |
| B2A4- A2d2F2 G6- GBA^cdA | FBAGFE F2D2EF/G/ F2AGFE FDA2B^c/d/ |
| ^c2dcBA d2A2AB/=c/ B2cBAG A2d2FG/A/ | G2AGFE FEDEFG AGBAGF E4e2- |
V: 2
[| B2dcBA B2G2AB/c/ {c}B2dcBA BGd2ef/g/ | f2gfed g2d2de/=f/ {f}e2fedc d2a2Bc/d/ |
| {d}c2dcBA BAGABc dcedcB AGFED2 | a24- |
| a12- a2 g6 f4- | f2e4- e2a2T^c2 d6- dcedcB |


The long bars were common then, and this  makes  for  some  difficult
counting at times.  When you realize how much syncopation there is in
this music, you can see that it's very easy to get lost in the middle
of  a  measure.   What  some editors will do with music like this, to
preserve the original measures but make counting easier,  is  to  use
broken bar lines (here a ':') like this:

[| d12- : d12- | d12- : d2 c6 B4- |
| B2A4- A2d2F2 : G6- GBA^cdA | FBAGFE F2D2EF/G/ : F2AGFE FDA2B^c/d/ |
| ^c2dcBA d2A2AB/=c/ : B2cBAG A2d2FG/A/ | G2AGFE FEDEFG : AGBAGF E4e2- |
V: 2
[| B2dcBA B2G2AB/c/ : {c}B2dcBA BGd2ef/g/ | f2gfed g2d2de/=f/ : {f}e2fedc d2a2Bc/d/ |
| {d}c2dcBA BAGABc : dcedcB AGFED2 | a12- : a12 - |
| a12- : a2 g6 f4- | f2e4- e2a2T^c2 : d6- dcedcB |

I hope I counted right. ;-)

This is a small change, but it can add a lot to  the  readability  of
such  music.   One  could, of course, just use regular bar lines, and
some editors will do that. But that's being less true to the original
composer's  notation.   Experienced  Baroque  musicians  usually like
"urtext" editions better than modernized editions, so  they  can  see
what  musicians  of  the time saw without being misled by an editor's
additions. Those grace notes - apoggiaturas actually - may or may not
have been in the original, but they're in both of the editions that I
have, so I've kept them.

Broken bar lines are sometimes shown as four dots or vertical  dashes
in  the  staff's  spaces.   They  are more often shown as a string of
vertical dashes, a bar line with a gap in each staff space. You can't
draw that too well in ascii, though.

To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers]ABC sects

[Bernard Hill]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, I. Oppenheim
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:
>
>> For that matter, I've  often  wished  that  abc  officially
>> supported a bare :  in the middle of a staff. In some other
>> kinds of music, this is used inside  long  measures,  as  a
>> sort of weak, "editorial" bar line
>
>This is a completely different matter.
>
>You're talking about having dotted bars and dotted
>slurs for editorial purposes. Both are indeed quite
>useful.

I'm not sure - is he? What about split bars, ie ones where the first
part is on stave 1 and the second half on stave 2. Stave 1 has no end
barline.


Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
Author of Music Publisher system
Music Software written by musicians for musicians
http://www.braeburn.co.uk
Selkirk, Scotland

To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Phil Taylor]

>>>convert my tunes to make them display when each V: label occurs
>>>only once (on big score it's less readable, but not on smaller
>
>>BarFly has a built-in command to do that - Format Tune under
>>the Utilities menu will rearrange the abc into the format
>>that the program likes (or the other way, if you set the
>>number of bars per line and notes per line high enough).
>
>oh yes, I noticed and used BarFly to convert this, but I wanted to
>have my arrangement back :)

It's still there.  When you do a "Format Tune" BarFly opens a new
window for the new arrangement.  The old arrangement is still
there in the window behind and you can just bring it back to the
front.

>Why can't it do it the two ways ?

It can play the tune either way, but for display the lines of
abc have to be in the same order that they will be displayed
as music.  It's done that way for speed really.

>I can understand ppl editing a very long score prefer to have the
>voices line by line, but sometimes some other pple could prefer to
>have the V:  only once if you want to quickly "mute" some voices
>by deleting them in a temp file.

Quickest way is to put the word "mute" in a V: field in the
header to turn that voice off.

>>It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
>>tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.
>
>It could be good to find a way to unify this in the new standard.
>The drawback of your convention is that old program / other
>program that don't recognise it may crash or display warnings
>(Abc2win warns 4 times before displaying the tune), while the %%
>notation won't cause problem : they're simply ignored if not
>recognized.

Yes, that's true.  I don't like %%midi transpose, because
transposition is nothing to do with midi, and you could only
put one %% in a V:1 header field.  I kind of hoped that
the middle and transpose directives would get adopted into
the standard, as they solve one of the most serious incompatibility
problems we have.

>>You can see what it looks like in Gregorian notation at the above
>>URL.
>
>and it looks very good :)
>
> (on the website)
>>Placing a comment symbol (%) before the clef specifier will cause
>it to be displayed in modern notation
>
>yes, it's a good idea, it's conveniant and fast to switch this
>
>>http://www.mcn.net/~relbooks/gf_salve.gif
>

Oops, sorry :-(

There's a rather poorer reproduction of it at:



Phil Taylor


To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Forgeot Eric]

>>convert my tunes to make them display when each V: label occurs
>>only once (on big score it's less readable, but not on smaller

>BarFly has a built-in command to do that - Format Tune under
>the Utilities menu will rearrange the abc into the format
>that the program likes (or the other way, if you set the
>number of bars per line and notes per line high enough).

oh yes, I noticed and used BarFly to convert this, but I wanted to
have my arrangement back :)
Why can't it do it the two ways ?

I can understand ppl editing a very long score prefer to have the
voices line by line, but sometimes some other pple could prefer to
have the V:  only once if you want to quickly "mute" some voices
by deleting them in a temp file.

>It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
>tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.

It could be good to find a way to unify this in the new standard.
The drawback of your convention is that old program / other
program that don't recognise it may crash or display warnings
(Abc2win warns 4 times before displaying the tune), while the %%
notation won't cause problem : they're simply ignored if not
recognized.


>You can see what it looks like in Gregorian notation at the above
>URL.

and it looks very good :)

 (on the website) 
>Placing a comment symbol (%) before the clef specifier will cause
it to be displayed in modern notation

yes, it's a good idea, it's conveniant and fast to switch this

>http://www.mcn.net/~relbooks/gf_salve.gif

btw this link doesn't work anymore

___
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Phil Taylor]

>In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Phil Taylor
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>>It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
>>tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.
>>For multivoice tunes put it in V: fields in the header, so you
>>can transpose each voice separately.  This only affects playing.
>>
>>To do the same thing for display of music use the middle (or m=)
>>directive in the same way.  "middle d" (or m=d) will make d the
>>note which is displayed on the middle line of the bass staff
>>instead of D,.
>
>Not MORE features which have not been documented?

Discussed at great length on this list over a couple of years.

Documented in the documentation which comes with BarFly.

>Is it in the new standard then?

One of the things which I raised in my response to the new standard
is the failure to address the problem of how the pitch of symbols
is to be interpreted in the presence of clefs other than the treble.
BarFly follows the abc 1.6, 1.7 and 2.0 standards in keeping the
same correspondence between symbol and pitch regardless of which
clef is in use.  The abc2ps family of programs doesn't, changing
the pitch as the clef changes.  BarFly and Muse simultaneously
introduced these directives to fix this problem.  BarFly and Muse
can deal with files written for abc2ps et al if these directives
are added to the file.  If these directives were added to the new
standard then that solution would be available to all programs which
implemented them.

Phil Taylor


To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Bernard Hill]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Phil Taylor
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
>tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.
>For multivoice tunes put it in V: fields in the header, so you
>can transpose each voice separately.  This only affects playing.
>
>To do the same thing for display of music use the middle (or m=)
>directive in the same way.  "middle d" (or m=d) will make d the
>note which is displayed on the middle line of the bass staff
>instead of D,.

Not MORE features which have not been documented?

Is it in the new standard then?
-- 
Bernard Hill
Braeburn Software
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers]ABC sects

[I. Oppenheim]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003, John Chambers wrote:

> For that matter, I've  often  wished  that  abc  officially
> supported a bare :  in the middle of a staff. In some other
> kinds of music, this is used inside  long  measures,  as  a
> sort of weak, "editorial" bar line

This is a completely different matter.

You're talking about having dotted bars and dotted
slurs for editorial purposes. Both are indeed quite
useful.

Nevertheless, I do not think it's a good idea to
overload the ":" sign to sometimes mean a repeat and
sometimes mean a dotted bar.

When we will be up to ABC 3.0 we could consider
including such a feature. In the mean time, you could
look for good symbols to represent dotted bars resp.
dotted slurs.


 Groeten,
 Irwin Oppenheim
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ~~~*

 Chazzanut Online:
 http://www.joods.nl/~chazzanut/
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers]ABC sects

[John Chambers]

Bryan Creer wrote:
| Irwin Oppenheim wrote -
|
| >Syntax like |!: instead of |: is not an extension
|
| Nor is it part of abc2win, it is simply bad abc.  I've only seen it once in a
| recent example that someone posted to this list but I've seen
|
| |
| :
|
| many times.

Actually, I can see why someone would do that.   I  have  a
number  of  trad  Irish  collections on my bookshelves, and
flipping through them turns up a lot  of  cases  where  the
start of a repeat is marked merely by a bare : at the start
of a staff, with no bar line before it.

Personally, I think this is  crummy  notation,  because  it
makes  the start of the repeat difficult to spot.  But it's
something  that's  fairly  common.   A  person  trying   to
transcribe  such music to abc would quite naturally come up
with  the  above  notation   because   it's   the   obvious
representation of what they see on the page.

For that matter, I've  often  wished  that  abc  officially
supported a bare :  in the middle of a staff. In some other
kinds of music, this is used inside  long  measures,  as  a
sort of weak, "editorial" bar line to make the music easier
to read. One place I've seen this is in editions of Baroque
music.   It was common practice then to use very long bars,
often only two bars per staff.  If the music gets  complex,
it  can be very difficult for a musician to keep track.  So
some editors will insert "broken  bar  lines"  (often  four
dots,  or with dashes crossing the staff lines) to help the
reader while preserving the original bar lines.

So, while this may not be very  good  notation,  there  are
reasonable excuses for using it.  It would be useful if abc
tools would support it by at least drawing an isolated : in
the usual fashion.



To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Frank Nordberg]

Phil Taylor wrote:
...
It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.
For multivoice tunes put it in V: fields in the header, so you
can transpose each voice separately.  This only affects playing.
Hmmm...

An important point here is that BarFly has many of the same special 
features as abc2ps/abcm2ps/midiabc, only it uses different syntaxes.

Any programmers here that feel the call to create a nice little 
conversion program/script for the benefit of the world at large?

Frank Nordberg
http://www.musicaviva.com
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

Re: [abcusers] ABC sects

[Phil Taylor]

Forgeot Eric wrote:

>About Macintosh, so far I couldn't check how Barfly behaves. I've
>made it work on an emulator recently, and I liked it, but I had to
>convert my tunes to make them display when each V: label occurs
>only once (on big score it's less readable, but not on smaller
>ones),

BarFly has a built-in command to do that - Format Tune under
the Utilities menu will rearrange the abc into the format
that the program likes (or the other way, if you set the
number of bars per line and notes per line high enough).

>and the %midi transpose commands weren't supported. I find
>more conveniant to use such a command for transposing -24 and to
>type something like G2 G>G A2-A>B instead of G,,2 G,,>G,,
>A,,2-A,,>B,,

It is supported, but you don't use %%midi.  For a single voice
tune put "transpose -24" (or just t=-24) in the K: field.
For multivoice tunes put it in V: fields in the header, so you
can transpose each voice separately.  This only affects playing.

To do the same thing for display of music use the middle (or m=)
directive in the same way.  "middle d" (or m=d) will make d the
note which is displayed on the middle line of the bass staff
instead of D,.

Phil Taylor


To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html

[abcusers] ABC sects

[Forgeot Eric]

>I use this abc for obtaining, sending, transcribing and printing
tunes 
>- I use emacs/xemacs as editor with abc-mode and then to produce
top 
>quality printed music I use jcabc2ps - what is *wrong* with the
abc2ps's ??

I think jcabc2ps was not targeted in the list of the bad
applications, of course jcabc2ps is a good "clone", and it's the
reason there is a question for merging jcabc2ps and abcm2ps (if I
understood well). The problem raised is that on the abc main page
http://www.gre.ac.uk/~c.walshaw/abc/ we get the impression that
abc2ps is the best "fully tested released version" / "the latest
version with new and experimental features from Germany" while
others are vile clones : "John Chambers' clone of abc2ps /
Jean-François Moine's clone of abc2ps", and they are presented
after the outdated Abc2ps. 
And even if Abc was developped originally for TeX, those old TeX
packages should be presented only at the end of the list, for
nostalgics. 

>I really wish I understood this hate campaign against abc2win. 
On 
>his website, Jim Vint credits a great many people who gave him
support some 
>of whom are still active on this list) so he didn't work in
isolation.  

I don't hate abc2win. On my website I still recomment it, but I
state that it's only for beginners who wish to type simple folk
tunes only because it's so limited. And now I tend to favorise
Abacus, even if the 1st release still crash from time to time.
On http://www.abc2win.com/ infos have been updated, but not the
prg. For ex. it still plays music throught the buzzer of the PC,
when it could have been maybe not so hard to have the option to
send the tune to abc2midi istead. I don't say it's compulsory the
author does that, of course, but abc2win couldn't expect in return
we consider it the most important and best abc application. I
discovered Abc with Abc2win, and learn to type abc with it, I'm
gratefull it existed at that time and I still consider it was a
good application at the moment (also for selection of tunes in a
book), but now it's a bit outdated for some other uses. For ex. it
can't directly print a whole book of tunes on several pages. The
problem was raised recently.
I used my Atari with pleasure, but I'm glad better computers
arrived on the market, and programmer didn't released later
software still compatible with Atari. Even Abc2win couln't run on
the DOS emulator I had on it :)

>> using abcpp I've fixed lots of legacy ABC files. It would be
nice if 
>there
>> were a web-based "translation service" based on abcpp. I have
no
>> experience on writing web applets; any hints?

>Although the list seems to be dominated by the Windows and Linux
users,
>don't forget in designing standards that there are a fair number
of
>Macintosh users who use abc too. Solutions that aren't compatible
with 
>our
>computers don't do us much good! Therefore the idea of a
web-based
>translation service sounds particularly good to me.

About Macintosh, so far I couldn't check how Barfly behaves. I've
made it work on an emulator recently, and I liked it, but I had to
convert my tunes to make them display when each V: label occurs
only once (on big score it's less readable, but not on smaller
ones), and the %midi transpose commands weren't supported. I find
more conveniant to use such a command for transposing -24 and to
type something like G2 G>G A2-A>B instead of G,,2 G,,>G,,
A,,2-A,,>B,, 

About a translation service, for converting whole set of tunes to
pdf it could be a good idea. JC's Tune finder can do this for
single tunes, but not for user's tunebook I think.




___
Do You Yahoo!? -- Une adresse @yahoo.fr gratuite et en français !
Yahoo! Mail : http://fr.mail.yahoo.com
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html