Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links

[Gino A. Villarini]

You need to look into Juniper MX series

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> on behalf of 
Carl Peterson mailto:cpeter...@portnetworks.com>>



Gino A. Villarini


President
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968

[cid:aeronet-logo_310cfc3e-6691-4f69-bd49-b37b834b9238.png]

Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:12 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links

"You also loose a great deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully 
modulated link and the active path is no running full rate."

Strong reason not to use a ring in general.  In this case, I have two 10G legs. 
 One is only 550 meters.  If is is gone, then something is really wrong and the 
other will be out as well since it is much longer.  Good argument for running 
G.8032v2 so I can put the owner on one side of the long link with the neighbor 
on the other.  This way the unused link will be the long link.

Thinking about it, another reason to do G8032v2 is at least with Calix, all the 
links with ERPS need to be the same speed, ie 10g, but with G.8032v2, at least 
according to the docs, You can run different interface speeds on different legs 
so I could leave an older 1G Siklu on the backup path for now.

We would obviously run the Siklus out of band.  I have existing management 
networks at each of these locations, but you could just connect the management 
interface on the radio to another port on the E7 and run a management VLAN on 
the ring.

We are currently running Juniper MPLS on routers (MX and M7i).  Could look at 
replacing the M7i routers with Juniper switches but they don't do well outside 
of a data center environment IMHO.  That is the path I was going down but doing 
it on the E7s is much easier from a cost, power, and cooling perspective.  The 
E7-2 on the other hand, is designed to run in a cabinet by the side of the road 
and half of them are already in place.

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Trey Scarborough 
mailto:t...@3dsc.co>> wrote:

I am not too familiar with the Calix G8032 but some of the things I could see 
being issues would be pulling management out of the ring so that you don't 
loose connectivity to the radios on the blocked port. You also loose a great 
deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully modulated link and the 
active path is no running full rate. If it uses CFM/OAM for link monitoring you 
could have issues configuring this over the radio links. You pretty much are 
forced to do this or run out of band management and force the ports down on 
link failure.

Personally I would look in to Juniper  Nokia 7210 or ciena 3928. The Nokia does 
full MPLS ciena does MPLS-TP and would possibly be abetter solution.

On 7/3/2018 10:49 AM, Carl Peterson wrote:

After moving most of our network over to VPLS, I'm working on pushing 10G 
further into the network.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to do this with 
routers (cost & power) and since we use a lot of Calix gear for our GPON and 
already have some of it in place it makes sense to me to just set up a 10G ring 
and hang routers off of that where we need them.  A couple of the legs are 
going to be wireless 10G links for now so I'm looking for feedback on G.8032v2 
vs ERPS rings with wireless paths.

Going to be running ~20-30 Service VLANs with multiple CVLANS and 20-30 other 
single tagged VLANs over the ring (router to router, dedicated links, etc).  
The only drawback I see is the inability to do traffic engineering the way we 
an with MPLS VPLS but I'll still have that with the transport to the core ring.

Any gotchas I should look for?  Issues with wireless?  benefits of one vs the 
other?







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PORT NETWORKS

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links

[chuck]

All of our Calix gear is on ERPS.

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 7:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links

We used ERPS with great results. Sub millisecond caliber with no precepts 
packet loss even for voice. But, you can't see anything past the shut down 
ports. We used it with planet switches. We had to manually shut down ports to 
test the alternate paths which in most cases didn't happen often enough.  

We did have a failure because we didn't test the alternate path often enough. 
If there was a way to automated that it would be better. 

I would listen to Hinojosa this. He has been where you are going. 


On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 5:55 AM Gino A. Villarini  wrote:

  You need to look into Juniper MX series 

  From: AF  on behalf of Carl Peterson 





Gino A. Villarini
   
President 
Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968 



  Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:12 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links


  "You also loose a great deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully 
modulated link and the active path is no running full rate."  


  Strong reason not to use a ring in general.  In this case, I have two 10G 
legs.  One is only 550 meters.  If is is gone, then something is really wrong 
and the other will be out as well since it is much longer.  Good argument for 
running G.8032v2 so I can put the owner on one side of the long link with the 
neighbor on the other.  This way the unused link will be the long link.  


  Thinking about it, another reason to do G8032v2 is at least with Calix, all 
the links with ERPS need to be the same speed, ie 10g, but with G.8032v2, at 
least according to the docs, You can run different interface speeds on 
different legs so I could leave an older 1G Siklu on the backup path for now.  


  We would obviously run the Siklus out of band.  I have existing management 
networks at each of these locations, but you could just connect the management 
interface on the radio to another port on the E7 and run a management VLAN on 
the ring.   


  We are currently running Juniper MPLS on routers (MX and M7i).  Could look at 
replacing the M7i routers with Juniper switches but they don't do well outside 
of a data center environment IMHO.  That is the path I was going down but doing 
it on the E7s is much easier from a cost, power, and cooling perspective.  The 
E7-2 on the other hand, is designed to run in a cabinet by the side of the road 
and half of them are already in place.   

  On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:

I am not too familiar with the Calix G8032 but some of the things I could 
see being issues would be pulling management out of the ring so that you don't 
loose connectivity to the radios on the blocked port. You also loose a great 
deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully modulated link and the 
active path is no running full rate. If it uses CFM/OAM for link monitoring you 
could have issues configuring this over the radio links. You pretty much are 
forced to do this or run out of band management and force the ports down on 
link failure. 

Personally I would look in to Juniper  Nokia 7210 or ciena 3928. The Nokia 
does full MPLS ciena does MPLS-TP and would possibly be abetter solution.



On 7/3/2018 10:49 AM, Carl Peterson wrote:


  After moving most of our network over to VPLS, I'm working on pushing 10G 
further into the network.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to do this with 
routers (cost & power) and since we use a lot of Calix gear for our GPON and 
already have some of it in place it makes sense to me to just set up a 10G ring 
and hang routers off of that where we need them.  A couple of the legs are 
going to be wireless 10G links for now so I'm looking for feedback on G.8032v2 
vs ERPS rings with wireless paths.   

  Going to be running ~20-30 Service VLANs with multiple CVLANS and 20-30 
other single tagged VLANs over the ring (router to router, dedicated links, 
etc).  The only drawback I see is the inability to do traffic engineering the 
way we an with MPLS VPLS but I'll still have that with the transport to the 
core ring.  

  Any gotchas I should look for?  Issues with wireless?  benefits of one vs 
the other?  





   




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  Carl Peterson


  PORT NETWORKS

  401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

  Baltimore, MD 21202

  (410) 637-3707 

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Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links

[Lewis Bergman]

We used ERPS with great results. Sub millisecond caliber with no precepts
packet loss even for voice. But, you can't see anything past the shut down
ports. We used it with planet switches. We had to manually shut down ports
to test the alternate paths which in most cases didn't happen often enough.

We did have a failure because we didn't test the alternate path often
enough. If there was a way to automated that it would be better.

I would listen to Hinojosa this. He has been where you are going.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 5:55 AM Gino A. Villarini  wrote:

> You need to look into Juniper MX series
>
> From: AF  on behalf of Carl Peterson <
> cpeter...@portnetworks.com>
>
>
>
> *Gino A. Villarini*
> President
> Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, Puerto Rico 00968
>
> Reply-To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Date: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 4:12 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] G.8032v2 or ERPS ring with 10G wireless links
>
> "You also loose a great deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully
> modulated link and the active path is no running full rate."
>
> Strong reason not to use a ring in general.  In this case, I have two 10G
> legs.  One is only 550 meters.  If is is gone, then something is really
> wrong and the other will be out as well since it is much longer.  Good
> argument for running G.8032v2 so I can put the owner on one side of the
> long link with the neighbor on the other.  This way the unused link will be
> the long link.
>
> Thinking about it, another reason to do G8032v2 is at least with Calix,
> all the links with ERPS need to be the same speed, ie 10g, but with G.8032v2,
> at least according to the docs, You can run different interface speeds on
> different legs so I could leave an older 1G Siklu on the backup path for
> now.
>
> We would obviously run the Siklus out of band.  I have existing management
> networks at each of these locations, but you could just connect the
> management interface on the radio to another port on the E7 and run a
> management VLAN on the ring.
>
> We are currently running Juniper MPLS on routers (MX and M7i).  Could look
> at replacing the M7i routers with Juniper switches but they don't do well
> outside of a data center environment IMHO.  That is the path I was going
> down but doing it on the E7s is much easier from a cost, power, and cooling
> perspective.  The E7-2 on the other hand, is designed to run in a cabinet
> by the side of the road and half of them are already in place.
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:35 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:
>
>> I am not too familiar with the Calix G8032 but some of the things I could
>> see being issues would be pulling management out of the ring so that you
>> don't loose connectivity to the radios on the blocked port. You also loose
>> a great deal of bandwidth If one side is blocking an fully modulated link
>> and the active path is no running full rate. If it uses CFM/OAM for link
>> monitoring you could have issues configuring this over the radio links. You
>> pretty much are forced to do this or run out of band management and force
>> the ports down on link failure.
>>
>> Personally I would look in to Juniper  Nokia 7210 or ciena 3928. The
>> Nokia does full MPLS ciena does MPLS-TP and would possibly be abetter
>> solution.
>>
>> On 7/3/2018 10:49 AM, Carl Peterson wrote:
>>
>>
>> After moving most of our network over to VPLS, I'm working on pushing 10G
>> further into the network.  It doesn't make a lot of sense to do this with
>> routers (cost & power) and since we use a lot of Calix gear for our GPON
>> and already have some of it in place it makes sense to me to just set up a
>> 10G ring and hang routers off of that where we need them.  A couple of the
>> legs are going to be wireless 10G links for now so I'm looking for feedback
>> on G.8032v2 vs ERPS rings with wireless paths.
>>
>> Going to be running ~20-30 Service VLANs with multiple CVLANS and 20-30
>> other single tagged VLANs over the ring (router to router, dedicated links,
>> etc).  The only drawback I see is the inability to do traffic engineering
>> the way we an with MPLS VPLS but I'll still have that with the transport to
>> the core ring.
>>
>> Any gotchas I should look for?  Issues with wireless?  benefits of one vs
>> the other?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Carl Peterson
>
> *PORT NETWORKS*
>
> 401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553
>
> Baltimore, MD 21202
>
> (410) 637-3707
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[Carl Peterson]

Same deal as Paul.  Our insurance covers climbing for ourselves but not for 
others.  If we're working a job for someone else, we sub out the guys on the 
tower and it can get expensive.

> On Jul 4, 2018, at 1:20 PM, can...@believewireless.net 
>  wrote:
> 
> Chuck, also look into your insurance costs. After being canceled two years in 
> a row for doing tower and rooftop work,
> we found a company to cover us "affordably" but limits that we can't climb 
> for others, limits the number of hours we
> can do tower work in-house, etc.
> 
> If you plan on these guys being a tower crew 100% of the time and sub'ing 
> them out to others, your insurance
> rates my change your cost/benefit analysis.
> 
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:08 PM,  wrote:
>> That is almost a perfect example of this job I need done.  I don’t begrudge 
>> a couple of guys making $1K  for a day of driving and a half day of working. 
>>  Seems like decent money to me.  Even at $75/hour, a 16 hour day comes in at 
>> $1200 per person.  Not unreasonable.  I can supply an employee or two for 
>> pulling on ropes etc.But 4-10 times that amount are the range of the 
>> quotes I am getting. 
>>  
>> Just trying to calibrate my expectations.  I recently paid about $5K for a 
>> 100’ SSV to be erected.  (I paid for the crane work and we built the 
>> foundations in house). 
>>  
>> Now the same guy wants the same amount to hang a PTP 550 on it and another 
>> tower.  That is where the heartburn is kicking in.  I too have erected 
>> towers.  I know that it is a bit more work than just hanging a small 
>> integrated radio. 
>>  
>> From: Jaime Solorza
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:57 AM
>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>  
>> I understand as an employer you have to look at cost vs benefitbut tower 
>> climbing is to me different from other Telecom work.  I really don't climb 
>> much anymore and out of the flow as to what folks are charging now.  Did a 
>> job in Midland with son realigning two 11GHz links on water tanksleft El 
>> Paso at 4 am, drove almost 4 hours...worked 6...drove homeI made 800.00 
>> , son 600.00.   Plus Travel and per diem ...some other outfit wanted to 
>> charge them 3000.00.  They hired us again few months later to install new 
>> radio after one got sent to heaven by lightning.. but Midland pays well.  
>> Just don't like it much..no mountains...
>> 
>> Jaime Solorza
>>  
>>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:38 AM  wrote:
>>> I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech around 
>>> here
>>> We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around 
>>> $25 if they are still doing install and repair work. 
>>>  
>>> I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this 
>>> particular job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable. 
>>>  
>>> If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am guessing 
>>> (which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a half a day 
>>> and stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4 men is 
>>> overkill and it should not take that much time etc. 
>>>  
>>> I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids years 
>>> ago.  If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.
>>>  
>>> “for the labourer is worthy of his hire”
>>>  
>>> From: Jaime Solorza
>>> Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
>>> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>  
>>> 25 an hour is low for tower work
>>> 
>>> Jaime Solorza
>>>  
 On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:
 Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour. 
 I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc. 
 To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
  
 I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and 
 tittle for loaded rates. 
 It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
  
 If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can 
 attach spreadsheets to the email.
  
 So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket. 
 Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
  
 I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on 
 the ground in 2 hours.
 Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man. 
  
 Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the 
 same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
 Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6 
 hours into the job.
  
 6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600 
 radios. 
 Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about 
 this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
 OK, my expense is not $1200. 
  
 Let’s say I 

Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[Jaime Solorza]

25 an hour is low for tower work

Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:

> Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.
> I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.
> To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
>
> I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and
> tittle for loaded rates.
> It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
>
> If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can
> attach spreadsheets to the email.
>
> So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.
> Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
>
> I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on
> the ground in 2 hours.
> Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.
>
> Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the
> same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
> Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6
> hours into the job.
>
> 6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600
> radios.
> Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about
> this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
> OK, my expense is not $1200.
>
> Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a
> 50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.
> And pocketing half.
>
> Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.
> I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be paid
> while they drive.   But still...
> Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
> What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.
> What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?
>
> *From:* Chuck McCown
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>
> I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour per
> tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and
> from.  But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 in
> payroll expense.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>
> Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I would
> charge...
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM  wrote:
>
>> Thanks
>>
>> *From:* Trey Scarborough
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>
>>
>> Check with LRC
>>
>> https://www.lrcwireless.com/
>>
>> On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>
>> Near Innis Louisiana.
>> (NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).
>>
>> *From:* Colin Stanners
>> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>
>> $5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out the rubber
>> tape? Incredible sounds like it's their "we don't want your business,
>> go away" pricing. Maybe post the area and see if any AFMUG members are
>> around?
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Integrated radios/antenna.
>>>
>>> *From:* Colin Stanners
>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2018 7:16 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>
>>> How big are the dishes?
>>>
>>> Those seem really high compared to around here.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
 I have a pair of PTP550s to hang and wire.
 Long away from my base of operations.  About 100’ up on both ends.

 Have received two quotes to hang and aim:
 $5000

 $8000   ($14,000 if it goes to 2 days)

 Not sure why they think this needs 4 guys to do.
 I am too old to do it myself, just don’t have the leg
 strength/endurance to be safe.

 10x the cost of the radios to hang and aim???



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[AFMUG] OT Homemade fireworks

[chuck]

Various thoughts

I used to make all my own fireworks as a kid.  Get potassium nitrate from the 
druggist, grind up some charcoal briquettes, add some sulfur from the druggist, 
do endless mixture variations until you get one that works and you have your 
powder.  Red devil stump remover is also potassium nitrate.  You can get that 
at home depot.  

You can mix that with sugar and also get something that works.  In that 
situation you want to cook it to melt the sugar.  Rocket Boys (Homer Hickham) 
used that to do their missiles.  

If you grind it all up (never did blow myself up by literally grinding these 
components together in the basement of my parents house) and them mix it with 
water into a slurry,  you can spread it out thin on a cookie shoot and bake it 
in your mom’s oven at low temps until it is hard.  Then you break it up into 
small chunks.  That process is called “corning” and makes the powder work all 
that much better.  

Then you can wrap up balls of the stuff (again wet to form a clay type 
consistency) in paper towels.  Then you load a paper towel roll with some 
powder, a ball, more powder, another ball etc.  And you have a great roman 
candle.  

Hard to get this stuff to go off like a fire cracker.  You have to really 
compress it.  I made a small cannon out of water pipe (hole drilled in a cap 
for the fuse).  Crammed and hammered a bunch into the pipe followed by cotton 
ball wadding them a bunch of fishing sinkers and solder for the projectiles.  
Put it on a chunk of fire wood with nails hammered in and bent over the pipe to 
keep it still.  Homemade fuses can be made by soaking paper into a potassium 
nitrate and water mixture and then then left to dry.  Best to roll them into 
the fuse while wet.  Thin paper like yellowpages worked pretty good.

My fuses were crap though.  On the cannon/pipe bomb the fuse went out so I lit 
a dry pine tree needle as a punk and probed the hole in the pipe cap to get it 
going again.  Stepped back, nothing.  Went back over there and got down and put 
my ear next to the pipe cap.  Yep, could hear it sizzling in there.  So I got 
up and took a few steps back.  KABLOOM  Huge huge huge explosion.  My best 
ever.  Blew the pipe cap off.  Split the pipe.  

My dad came running out of the house looking to see if he could find all of my 
body parts.  I had a grin on my face a mile wide...  He demanded that I dump 
all my powder into the dirt.  That was a very memorable 4th of July.  I think 
of this incident every 4th.  I give thanks for coming away unscathed.  (And I 
lived in dry land wheat farming country in central Oregon.  Always and extreme 
fire hazard).

I also perfected acetylene bombs.  Made nitrocellulose in my mom’s kitchen.  
Tried to make nitro glycerin and mercury fulminate in the HS science lab.  They 
were both flops.  

Still have all my digits and my eyesight.  Probably not going to be allowed to 
pass this knowledge to my grandchildren though people just don’t want kids 
to have fun anymore (I would totally freak out if I knew my grandkids were 
even thinking about trying some of this stuff).  

Some say I am not risk averse.  I say I get bored easily.  


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Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[chuck]

That is almost a perfect example of this job I need done.  I don’t begrudge a 
couple of guys making $1K  for a day of driving and a half day of working.  
Seems like decent money to me.  Even at $75/hour, a 16 hour day comes in at 
$1200 per person.  Not unreasonable.  I can supply an employee or two for 
pulling on ropes etc.But 4-10 times that amount are the range of the quotes 
I am getting.  

Just trying to calibrate my expectations.  I recently paid about $5K for a 100’ 
SSV to be erected.  (I paid for the crane work and we built the foundations in 
house).  

Now the same guy wants the same amount to hang a PTP 550 on it and another 
tower.  That is where the heartburn is kicking in.  I too have erected towers.  
I know that it is a bit more work than just hanging a small integrated radio.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

I understand as an employer you have to look at cost vs benefitbut tower 
climbing is to me different from other Telecom work.  I really don't climb much 
anymore and out of the flow as to what folks are charging now.  Did a job in 
Midland with son realigning two 11GHz links on water tanksleft El Paso at 4 
am, drove almost 4 hours...worked 6...drove homeI made 800.00 , son 600.00. 
  Plus Travel and per diem ...some other outfit wanted to charge them 3000.00.  
They hired us again few months later to install new radio after one got sent to 
heaven by lightning.. but Midland pays well.  Just don't like it much..no 
mountains...


Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:38 AM  wrote:

  I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech around 
here
  We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around $25 
if they are still doing install and repair work.  

  I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this 
particular job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable.  

  If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am guessing 
(which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a half a day and 
stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4 men is overkill 
and it should not take that much time etc.  

  I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids years 
ago.  If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.

  “for the labourer is worthy of his hire”

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  25 an hour is low for tower work


  Jaime Solorza

  On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:

Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.  
I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.  
To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.

I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and 
tittle for loaded rates.  
It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.

If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can 
attach spreadsheets to the email. 

So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.  
Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.

I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on 
the ground in 2 hours.
Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.  

Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the same 
at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6 
hours into the job.

6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600 
radios.  
Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about 
this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
OK, my expense is not $1200.  

Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a 
50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.   
And pocketing half.  

Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.  
I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be paid 
while they drive.   But still...
Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.  
What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour per 
tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and from.  
But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 in payroll 
expense.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
 

Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[can...@believewireless.net]

Chuck, also look into your insurance costs. After being canceled two years
in a row for doing tower and rooftop work,
we found a company to cover us "affordably" but limits that we can't climb
for others, limits the number of hours we
can do tower work in-house, etc.

If you plan on these guys being a tower crew 100% of the time and sub'ing
them out to others, your insurance
rates my change your cost/benefit analysis.

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 1:08 PM,  wrote:

> That is almost a perfect example of this job I need done.  I don’t
> begrudge a couple of guys making $1K  for a day of driving and a half day
> of working.  Seems like decent money to me.  Even at $75/hour, a 16 hour
> day comes in at $1200 per person.  Not unreasonable.  I can supply an
> employee or two for pulling on ropes etc.But 4-10 times that amount are
> the range of the quotes I am getting.
>
> Just trying to calibrate my expectations.  I recently paid about $5K for a
> 100’ SSV to be erected.  (I paid for the crane work and we built the
> foundations in house).
>
> Now the same guy wants the same amount to hang a PTP 550 on it and another
> tower.  That is where the heartburn is kicking in.  I too have erected
> towers.  I know that it is a bit more work than just hanging a small
> integrated radio.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:57 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>
> I understand as an employer you have to look at cost vs benefitbut
> tower climbing is to me different from other Telecom work.  I really don't
> climb much anymore and out of the flow as to what folks are charging now.
> Did a job in Midland with son realigning two 11GHz links on water
> tanksleft El Paso at 4 am, drove almost 4 hours...worked 6...drove
> homeI made 800.00 , son 600.00.   Plus Travel and per diem ...some
> other outfit wanted to charge them 3000.00.  They hired us again few months
> later to install new radio after one got sent to heaven by lightning.. but
> Midland pays well.  Just don't like it much..no mountains...
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:38 AM  wrote:
>
>> I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech
>> around here
>> We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around
>> $25 if they are still doing install and repair work.
>>
>> I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this
>> particular job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable.
>>
>> If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am
>> guessing (which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a
>> half a day and stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4
>> men is overkill and it should not take that much time etc.
>>
>> I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids
>> years ago.  If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.
>>
>> “for the labourer is worthy of his hire”
>>
>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>
>> 25 an hour is low for tower work
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:
>>
>>> Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.
>>> I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.
>>> To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
>>>
>>> I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and
>>> tittle for loaded rates.
>>> It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
>>>
>>> If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I
>>> can attach spreadsheets to the email.
>>>
>>> So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.
>>> Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
>>>
>>> I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on
>>> the ground in 2 hours.
>>> Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.
>>>
>>> Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the
>>> same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
>>> Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6
>>> hours into the job.
>>>
>>> 6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600
>>> radios.
>>> Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know
>>> about this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
>>> OK, my expense is not $1200.
>>>
>>> Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a
>>> 50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.
>>> And pocketing half.
>>>
>>> Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.
>>> I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be
>>> paid while they drive.   But still...
>>> Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
>>> What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to 

Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[chuck]

Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.  
I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.  
To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.

I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and tittle 
for loaded rates.  
It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.

If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can 
attach spreadsheets to the email. 

So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.  
Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.

I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on the 
ground in 2 hours.
Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.  

Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the same at 
the other site.  5 hours total so far.
Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6 hours 
into the job.

6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600 radios. 
 
Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about this 
rule but two people have mentioned it now.
OK, my expense is not $1200.  

Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a 50% 
margin, then I would be billing $2400.   
And pocketing half.  

Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.  
I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be paid 
while they drive.   But still...
Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.  
What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?

From: Chuck McCown 
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour per 
tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and from.  
But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 in payroll 
expense.  

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I would 
charge...


Jaime Solorza

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM  wrote:

  Thanks

  From: Trey Scarborough 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
  To: af@af.afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  Check with LRC 


  https://www.lrcwireless.com/ 




  On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Near Innis Louisiana.  
(NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).

From: Colin Stanners 
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

$5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out the rubber 
tape? Incredible sounds like it's their "we don't want your business, go 
away" pricing. Maybe post the area and see if any AFMUG members are around?


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Integrated radios/antenna.  

  From: Colin Stanners 
  Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:16 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  How big are the dishes?

  Those seem really high compared to around here.


  On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

I have a pair of PTP550s to hang and wire.  
Long away from my base of operations.  About 100’ up on both ends.

Have received two quotes to hang and aim:
$5000

$8000   ($14,000 if it goes to 2 days)

Not sure why they think this needs 4 guys to do.  
I am too old to do it myself, just don’t have the leg 
strength/endurance to be safe.  

10x the cost of the radios to hang and aim???



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Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[chuck]

I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech around here
We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around $25 
if they are still doing install and repair work.  

I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this particular 
job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable.  

If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am guessing 
(which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a half a day and 
stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4 men is overkill 
and it should not take that much time etc.  

I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids years ago. 
 If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.

“for the labourer is worthy of his hire”

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

25 an hour is low for tower work


Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:

  Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.  
  I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.  
  To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.

  I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and tittle 
for loaded rates.  
  It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.

  If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can 
attach spreadsheets to the email. 

  So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.  
  Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.

  I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on the 
ground in 2 hours.
  Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.  

  Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the same 
at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
  Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6 hours 
into the job.

  6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600 
radios.  
  Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about 
this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
  OK, my expense is not $1200.  

  Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a 50% 
margin, then I would be billing $2400.   
  And pocketing half.  

  Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.  
  I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be paid 
while they drive.   But still...
  Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
  What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.  
  What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?

  From: Chuck McCown 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour per 
tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and from.  
But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 in payroll 
expense.  

  From: Jaime Solorza 
  Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I would 
charge...


  Jaime Solorza

  On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM  wrote:

Thanks

From: Trey Scarborough 
Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

Check with LRC 


https://www.lrcwireless.com/ 




On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

  Near Innis Louisiana.  
  (NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).

  From: Colin Stanners 
  Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

  $5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out the rubber 
tape? Incredible sounds like it's their "we don't want your business, go 
away" pricing. Maybe post the area and see if any AFMUG members are around?


  On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

Integrated radios/antenna.  

From: Colin Stanners 
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 7:16 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

How big are the dishes?

Those seem really high compared to around here.


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I have a pair of PTP550s to hang and wire.  
  Long away from my base of operations.  About 100’ up on both ends.

  Have received two quotes to hang and aim:
  $5000

  $8000   ($14,000 if it goes to 2 days)

  Not sure why they think this needs 4 guys to do.  
  I am too old to do it myself, just don’t have the leg 
strength/endurance to be safe.  

  

Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[Robert]

I would have to agree, tower work would seem to be $75 hour work for 
people who are used to working up to 1K feet towers, at least!


On 7/4/18 9:29 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:

25 an hour is low for tower work

Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> 
wrote:


Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.
I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.
To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot
and tittle for loaded rates.
It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think
I can attach spreadsheets to the email.
So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.
Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and
be on the ground in 2 hours.
Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.
Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do
the same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming. 
6 hours into the job.

6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of
$600 radios.
Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know
about this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
OK, my expense is not $1200.
Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and
make a 50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.
And pocketing half.
Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.
I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to
be paid while they drive.   But still...
Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.
What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?
*From:* Chuck McCown
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one
hour per tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport
time to and from.  But if my own employees were doing it I would
have less than $240 in payroll expense.
*From:* Jaime Solorza
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I
would charge...

Jaime Solorza
On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM  wrote:

Thanks
*From:* Trey Scarborough
*Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
*To:* af@af.afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

Check with LRC

https://www.lrcwireless.com/


On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Near Innis Louisiana.
(NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).
*From:* Colin Stanners
*Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
$5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out
the rubber tape? Incredible sounds like it's their "we
don't want your business, go away" pricing. Maybe post the
area and see if any AFMUG members are around?
On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:23 PM, Chuck McCown 
wrote:

Integrated radios/antenna.
*From:* Colin Stanners
*Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2018 7:16 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
How big are the dishes?
Those seem really high compared to around here.
On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:12 PM, Chuck McCown
 wrote:

I have a pair of PTP550s to hang and wire.
Long away from my base of operations.  About 100’ up
on both ends.
Have received two quotes to hang and aim:
$5000
$8000   ($14,000 if it goes to 2 days)
Not sure why they think this needs 4 guys to do.
I am too old to do it myself, just don’t have the leg
strength/endurance to be safe.
10x the cost of the radios to hang and aim???

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Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing

[Jaime Solorza]

I understand as an employer you have to look at cost vs benefitbut
tower climbing is to me different from other Telecom work.  I really don't
climb much anymore and out of the flow as to what folks are charging now.
Did a job in Midland with son realigning two 11GHz links on water
tanksleft El Paso at 4 am, drove almost 4 hours...worked 6...drove
homeI made 800.00 , son 600.00.   Plus Travel and per diem ...some
other outfit wanted to charge them 3000.00.  They hired us again few months
later to install new radio after one got sent to heaven by lightning.. but
Midland pays well.  Just don't like it much..no mountains...

Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:38 AM  wrote:

> I realize that but it is not low for a run-of-the- mill telecom tech
> around here
> We start them at about $15 and after a few years they will top out around
> $25 if they are still doing install and repair work.
>
> I am trying to illustrate the job costing that I am applying to this
> particular job to judge whether or not these quotes are reasonable.
>
> If 4 man is the law, and if it takes twice the amount of time I am
> guessing (which happens all too frequently) and if they have to drive a
> half a day and stay overnight, then I can see it.  But my heart says that 4
> men is overkill and it should not take that much time etc.
>
> I am totally double minded on this because I quit doing lowball bids years
> ago.  If I don’t make good money on a job I pass it over.
>
> “for the labourer is worthy of his hire”
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 4, 2018 10:29 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>
> 25 an hour is low for tower work
>
> Jaime Solorza
>
> On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:13 AM  wrote:
>
>> Let’s say I pay a guy that I have  sent to Comtrain $25/hour.
>> I pay a few benefits, modest health insurance etc.
>> To not lose money, I have to bill one of my other companies $39.50.
>>
>> I have a very comprehensive spreadsheet that calculates every jot and
>> tittle for loaded rates.
>> It even includes the expense of calculating the billing etc.
>>
>> If anyone wants a copy  send me an off list request.  I don’t think I can
>> attach spreadsheets to the email.
>>
>> So, lets round up.  $40/hour is my out of pocket.
>> Say I need two of these guys to hang the radios.  $80/hour.
>>
>> I know I can climb that tower, hang the radio, secure the CAT5 and be on
>> the ground in 2 hours.
>> Have done similar jobs many many times as a younger man.
>>
>> Then drive for a half hour (let’s round up to 1 hours) and then do the
>> same at the other site.  5 hours total so far.
>> Then say we have to go back to the first site and tweak the aiming.  6
>> hours into the job.
>>
>> 6 x 80 is $480  My out of pocket payroll expense to hang a pair of $600
>> radios.
>> Perhaps there is some OSHA rule that requires 4 guys.  I don’t know about
>> this rule but two people have mentioned it now.
>> OK, my expense is not $1200.
>>
>> Let’s say I want send my guys to do this job for someone else and make a
>> 50% margin, then I would be billing $2400.
>> And pocketing half.
>>
>> Still far less than the quotes and estimates I have received.
>> I realize everyone has to drive in from somewhere and they have to be
>> paid while they drive.   But still...
>> Where is that rule that you must have 4 guys on a tower crew?
>> What is a fair margin when renting our your employees to others.
>> What is the cost of sending someone to Comtrain these days?
>>
>> *From:* Chuck McCown
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:15 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>
>> I figure less than 3 hours per tower, in reality it should be one hour
>> per tower.  So 6 man hours.  Of course there would be transport time to and
>> from.  But if my own employees were doing it I would have less than $240 in
>> payroll expense.
>>
>> *From:* Jaime Solorza
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 03, 2018 9:34 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>
>> Too busy to help you...but 4500.00 is more or less what son and I would
>> charge...
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:28 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> *From:* Trey Scarborough
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, July 3, 2018 1:15 PM
>>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>
>>>
>>> Check with LRC
>>>
>>> https://www.lrcwireless.com/
>>>
>>> On 7/2/2018 8:31 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>>
>>> Near Innis Louisiana.
>>> (NW of Baton Rouge, SE or Alexandria).
>>>
>>> *From:* Colin Stanners
>>> *Sent:* Monday, July 02, 2018 7:27 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Tower climbing
>>>
>>> $5000 and they don't even need to mount big dishes or take out the
>>> rubber tape? Incredible sounds like it's their "we don't want your
>>> business, go away" pricing. Maybe post the area and see if any AFMUG
>>> members are around?
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT Homemade fireworks

[Jaime Solorza]

No hablo...boom

Jaime Solorza

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018, 10:33 AM  wrote:

> Various thoughts
>
> I used to make all my own fireworks as a kid.  Get potassium nitrate from
> the druggist, grind up some charcoal briquettes, add some sulfur from the
> druggist, do endless mixture variations until you get one that works and
> you have your powder.  Red devil stump remover is also potassium nitrate.
> You can get that at home depot.
>
> You can mix that with sugar and also get something that works.  In that
> situation you want to cook it to melt the sugar.  Rocket Boys (Homer
> Hickham) used that to do their missiles.
>
> If you grind it all up (never did blow myself up by literally grinding
> these components together in the basement of my parents house) and them mix
> it with water into a slurry,  you can spread it out thin on a cookie shoot
> and bake it in your mom’s oven at low temps until it is hard.  Then you
> break it up into small chunks.  That process is called “corning” and makes
> the powder work all that much better.
>
> Then you can wrap up balls of the stuff (again wet to form a clay type
> consistency) in paper towels.  Then you load a paper towel roll with some
> powder, a ball, more powder, another ball etc.  And you have a great roman
> candle.
>
> Hard to get this stuff to go off like a fire cracker.  You have to really
> compress it.  I made a small cannon out of water pipe (hole drilled in a
> cap for the fuse).  Crammed and hammered a bunch into the pipe followed by
> cotton ball wadding them a bunch of fishing sinkers and solder for the
> projectiles.  Put it on a chunk of fire wood with nails hammered in and
> bent over the pipe to keep it still.  Homemade fuses can be made by soaking
> paper into a potassium nitrate and water mixture and then then left to
> dry.  Best to roll them into the fuse while wet.  Thin paper like
> yellowpages worked pretty good.
>
> My fuses were crap though.  On the cannon/pipe bomb the fuse went out so I
> lit a dry pine tree needle as a punk and probed the hole in the pipe cap to
> get it going again.  Stepped back, nothing.  Went back over there and got
> down and put my ear next to the pipe cap.  Yep, could hear it sizzling in
> there.  So I got up and took a few steps back.  KABLOOM  Huge huge huge
> explosion.  My best ever.  Blew the pipe cap off.  Split the pipe.
>
> My dad came running out of the house looking to see if he could find all
> of my body parts.  I had a grin on my face a mile wide...  He demanded that
> I dump all my powder into the dirt.  That was a very memorable 4th of
> July.  I think of this incident every 4th.  I give thanks for coming away
> unscathed.  (And I lived in dry land wheat farming country in central
> Oregon.  Always and extreme fire hazard).
>
> I also perfected acetylene bombs.  Made nitrocellulose in my mom’s
> kitchen.  Tried to make nitro glycerin and mercury fulminate in the HS
> science lab.  They were both flops.
>
> Still have all my digits and my eyesight.  Probably not going to be
> allowed to pass this knowledge to my grandchildren though people just
> don’t want kids to have fun anymore (I would totally freak out if I
> knew my grandkids were even thinking about trying some of this stuff).
>
> Some say I am not risk averse.  I say I get bored easily.
>
>
>
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