Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Ken Hohhof 
BTW, back around 1976 I worked for a company that made TV sets for Sears and 
KMart.  We had samples of TV set from all the competitors, including European 
manufacturers like Philips.  The European sets looked like a Tektronix 
oscilloscope inside, very different from the American and Japanese sets where 
cutting a penny of cost was a big deal.  I was told the difference was that 
most Europeans (at that time, I’m guessing it’s different now) leased their TV 
rather than buying.  So the decision makers were the leasing companies, and 
they wanted reliable equipment that could come back off lease, get a minor 
cleaning, and go back out to another customer.  Take abuse and last forever.


From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 12:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

That WNR1000 is a horrible selection to be selling a customer in 2016, at any 
price.

But I think this WISP may come to regret it because when you sell someone a 
router for $80 and they also have monthly Internet service from you, they are 
going to expect you to stand behind the router and replace it if it dies.  I 
know, I know, not a big deal if you are buying them for $10.  But I will no 
longer sell people routers.  I will lease them a managed router, and it is 
going to be a decent router if I am going to support it.


From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:01 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...


It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill looks 
like:


NRC

$several hundred dollars - CPE radio

$165 - new customer one time installation fee

$80 router purchase


MRC

$85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service

I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the router 
($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and what they 
sold it for is so wide that it's just wrong.


I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or even 
$110...  But not this.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:

  I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80 and 
they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a $10 plus 
say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad the bill 
would probably come out to $300...

  I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less 
with install.

  On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:

If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
productive will come of it.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman > wrote:

That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
second one kinda...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" > wrote:

A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...

The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
router.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
> wrote:

If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
leave)?  That's fine.

If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
their customers.

Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
factory defaulted and configured for new customers.

Nothing wrong with this.

If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
could not in

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Ken Hohhof 
That WNR1000 is a horrible selection to be selling a customer in 2016, at any 
price.

But I think this WISP may come to regret it because when you sell someone a 
router for $80 and they also have monthly Internet service from you, they are 
going to expect you to stand behind the router and replace it if it dies.  I 
know, I know, not a big deal if you are buying them for $10.  But I will no 
longer sell people routers.  I will lease them a managed router, and it is 
going to be a decent router if I am going to support it.


From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:01 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...


It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill looks 
like:


NRC

$several hundred dollars - CPE radio

$165 - new customer one time installation fee

$80 router purchase


MRC

$85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service

I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the router 
($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and what they 
sold it for is so wide that it's just wrong.


I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or even 
$110...  But not this.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:

  I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80 and 
they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a $10 plus 
say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad the bill 
would probably come out to $300...

  I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less 
with install.

  On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:

If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
productive will come of it.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman > wrote:

That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
second one kinda...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" > wrote:

A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...

The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
router.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
> wrote:

If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
leave)?  That's fine.

If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
their customers.

Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
factory defaulted and configured for new customers.

Nothing wrong with this.

If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
obsolete $10 router for $80.


This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
purchase line item on a customer invoice.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Steve D 
Did your feeble aunt who doesn't know the first thing about realty buy the
house?  Do you think she felt ripped off after you the expert told her the
house has termites and the golf course is actually a farm with the hay cut
extra low?  If she knew about all that, then sure, not much else to be said.

Remember, this is a question about ethics.  It's not about whether you can
make the sale, but whether you *should*.  It's a big grey area to be sure
though and all comes down to what lets you sleep well at night.  You go all
the way to douche side of the equation and you end up cell mates with some
guy named Bernie...

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:

> Something is worth whatever someone will pay for it.
>
> Eight years ago, contractors were building nice homes in a nice new area,
> next to a golf course. They would build it for $600k (total cost for
> everything) and then turn around and sell them for $1.2 - $1.4 million.
> Were people getting screwed? I think so. Did they still buy them? Yes.
>
> Travis
>
>
> On 8/22/2016 8:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:
>
> This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...
>
> It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill
> looks like:
>
> NRC
> $several hundred dollars - CPE radio
> $165 - new customer one time installation fee
> $80 router purchase
>
> MRC
> $85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service
>
> I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the
> router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and
> what they sold it for is so wide that it's just *wrong*.
>
> I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or
> even $110...  But not this.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:
>
>> I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80
>> and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a
>> $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad
>> the bill would probably come out to $300...
>>
>> I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less
>> with install.
>>
>> On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>>
>>> If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
>>> productive will come of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
>>> second one kinda...
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
>>> place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>>>
>>> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
>>> charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
>>> router.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
>>> >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
>>> leave)?  That's fine.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
>>> their customers.
>>>
>>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
>>> factory defaulted and configured for new customers.
>>>
>>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>>
>>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
>>> customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
>>> at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEA
>>> R-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-
>>> SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>>
>>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
>>> could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
>>> obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
>>> purchase line item on a customer

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Sean Heskett 
caveat emptor...no one is making them buy the router are they??

-Sean


On Monday, August 22, 2016, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...
>
> It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill
> looks like:
>
> NRC
> $several hundred dollars - CPE radio
> $165 - new customer one time installation fee
> $80 router purchase
>
> MRC
> $85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service
>
> I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the
> router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and
> what they sold it for is so wide that it's just *wrong*.
>
> I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or
> even $110...  But not this.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  > wrote:
>
>> I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80
>> and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a
>> $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad
>> the bill would probably come out to $300...
>>
>> I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less
>> with install.
>>
>> On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>>
>>> If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
>>> productive will come of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman >> 
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
>>> second one kinda...
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" >> 
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
>>> place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>>>
>>> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
>>> charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
>>> router.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
>>> >> 
>>> >> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
>>> leave)?  That's fine.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
>>> >>  >> eric.kuh...@gmail.com
>>> >> wrote:
>>>
>>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
>>> their customers.
>>>
>>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
>>> factory defaulted and configured for new customers.
>>>
>>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>>
>>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
>>> customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
>>> at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEA
>>> R-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-
>>> SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>>
>>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
>>> could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
>>> obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
>>> purchase line item on a customer invoice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Travis Johnson 

Something is worth whatever someone will pay for it.

Eight years ago, contractors were building nice homes in a nice new 
area, next to a golf course. They would build it for $600k (total cost 
for everything) and then turn around and sell them for $1.2 - $1.4 
million. Were people getting screwed? I think so. Did they still buy 
them? Yes.


Travis


On 8/22/2016 8:01 PM, Eric Kuhnke wrote:

This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...

It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the 
bill looks like:


NRC
$several hundred dollars - CPE radio
$165 - new customer one time installation fee
$80 router purchase

MRC
$85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service

I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of 
the router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the 
price) and what they sold it for is so wide that it's just /wrong/.


I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, 
or even $110...  But not this.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough > wrote:


I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it
for $80 and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see
the problem. Its a $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to
install it. If that was geek squad the bill would probably come
out to $300...

I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router
for less with install.

On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:

If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about
it. Nothing
productive will come of it.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman

>> wrote:

That doesn't really answer the questions though. Sounds
like the
second one kinda...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"

>> wrote:

A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector
put in
place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the
PoE...

The CPE radio installation was its own installation
service
charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line
item for the
router.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman

>> wrote:

If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

If it's sold as a service (go to house, install
router,
leave)?  That's fine.

If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
 >> wrote:

Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi
routers to
their customers.

Some routers are used pulls from other
customers, get
factory defaulted and configured for new
customers.

Nothing wrong with this.

If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers
from
customer pulls and re-selling them to another
customer
at $80/piece, and that router was this exact
model:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY



Would you consider it to be ethically
questionable? I
could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
obsolete $10 router for $80.


This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
purchase line item on a customer invoice.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Kuhnke 
In the land of moose, maple syrup and prime ministers who aren't afraid to
choke out a protestor [1], my wife and I pay $130 CAD together monthly for
health insurance...  Which covers pretty much everything.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shawinigan_Handshake



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 7:09 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> You better stay away from the medical industry.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Aug 22, 2016 10:01 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
>> This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...
>>
>> It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill
>> looks like:
>>
>> NRC
>> $several hundred dollars - CPE radio
>> $165 - new customer one time installation fee
>> $80 router purchase
>>
>> MRC
>> $85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service
>>
>> I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the
>> router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and
>> what they sold it for is so wide that it's just *wrong*.
>>
>> I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or
>> even $110...  But not this.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:
>>
>>> I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80
>>> and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a
>>> $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad
>>> the bill would probably come out to $300...
>>>
>>> I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for
>>> less with install.
>>>
>>> On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>>>
 If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
 productive will come of it.


 On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman > wrote:

 That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
 second one kinda...

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373


 On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" > wrote:

 A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
 place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...

 The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
 charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
 router.



 On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
 > wrote:

 If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

 If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
 leave)?  That's fine.

 If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 
 Direct: 937-552-2343 
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
 >
 wrote:

 Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
 their customers.

 Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
 factory defaulted and configured for new customers.

 Nothing wrong with this.

 If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
 customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
 at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:

 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEA
 R-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SW
 ITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

 Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
 could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
 obsolete $10 router for $80.


 This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
 purchase line item on a customer invoice.






>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Josh Luthman 
You better stay away from the medical industry.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Aug 22, 2016 10:01 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

> This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...
>
> It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill
> looks like:
>
> NRC
> $several hundred dollars - CPE radio
> $165 - new customer one time installation fee
> $80 router purchase
>
> MRC
> $85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service
>
> I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the
> router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and
> what they sold it for is so wide that it's just *wrong*.
>
> I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or
> even $110...  But not this.
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:
>
>> I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80
>> and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a
>> $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad
>> the bill would probably come out to $300...
>>
>> I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less
>> with install.
>>
>> On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>>
>>> If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
>>> productive will come of it.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
>>> second one kinda...
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
>>> place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>>>
>>> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
>>> charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
>>> router.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
>>> >> > wrote:
>>>
>>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
>>> leave)?  That's fine.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
>>> >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
>>> their customers.
>>>
>>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
>>> factory defaulted and configured for new customers.
>>>
>>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>>
>>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
>>> customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
>>> at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEA
>>> R-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-
>>> SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>>
>>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
>>> could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
>>> obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
>>> purchase line item on a customer invoice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Kuhnke 
This is not a WISP that competes with me in any way...

It's actually a family member's new last mile connection, where the bill
looks like:

NRC
$several hundred dollars - CPE radio
$165 - new customer one time installation fee
$80 router purchase

MRC
$85 monthly for a reasonably high quota service

I think that the price disparity between the actual market value of the
router ($11 to $15 on ebay with free shipping included in the price) and
what they sold it for is so wide that it's just *wrong*.

I can see buying a $75 basic 802.11ac router and selling it for $100, or
even $110...  But not this.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Trey Scarborough  wrote:

> I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80
> and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its a
> $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek squad
> the bill would probably come out to $300...
>
> I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for less
> with install.
>
> On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>
>> If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
>> productive will come of it.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman > > wrote:
>>
>> That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
>> second one kinda...
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>>
>> On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" > > wrote:
>>
>> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
>> place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>>
>> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
>> charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
>> router.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>
>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
>> leave)?  That's fine.
>>
>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
>> their customers.
>>
>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
>> factory defaulted and configured for new customers.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>
>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
>> customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
>> at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-
>> WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash
>> =item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>
>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
>> could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
>> obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>
>>
>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
>> purchase line item on a customer invoice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] EPMP GPS Problems Increasing last week

2016-08-22 Thread George Skorup 
I have seen the SyncPipes do exactly the same thing. Sats visible, but 
none tracked. A power-cycle will usually bring them right back. They 
just seem to get confused once in a while.


I have one very problematic site. We've tried swapping pipes, cables, 
everything. It just goes stupid. At times even no visible sats. 
Power-cycle it and it will see 10+ visible, but still can't get lock. A 
couple more power-cycles will bring it back. And then it might go nuts 
again an hour or two later. Then it's perfectly happy for weeks. I don't 
get it. This is at a grain leg where we're in the process of moving 
between legs. The new leg is across the street about 500 feet. That one 
has a SyncInjector and pipe on the ground with metal all around and it 
works perfectly fine. Splain me that. In fact, I pretty much never have 
these issues with pipes attached to SyncInjectors. I have a site that 
has been running for 444 days and the 1PPS event counter on that 
injector is at... 1.


On 8/22/2016 5:20 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
We've been running EPMP For a well over a year now.  I have not made 
any firmware changes in a while, everything is on 2.6.1, but last week 
I had 2-3 sectors (not all sectors at the site) at 2 sites separated 
by 20+ miles that started having sync problems to the point where I 
had to set them to generate sync.  Is it just isolated to me, or is 
something going on with the GPS Sky thingies that is affecting EPMP?  
All radios are using the included GPS Antennas, and have been 
installed for several months.  I'll see either all satellites 
disappear from the monitor->GPS page, or it will show satellites as 
visible but not tracked with an SNR of 0.  I have tried both Software 
reboot, as well as powercycle, and they're are still acting this way.


I've included the graphs for 3 sectors at the same site.  Blue is 
visible satellites, green is Tracked Satellites.  You can see the NW 
Sector has visible, but is losing tracking.  These were all working 
fine until last week.

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Trey Scarborough 
I agree if they are selling the router along with installing it for $80 
and they are not selling it as a new router I don't see the problem. Its 
a $10 plus say $10 for shipping and $60 to install it. If that was geek 
squad the bill would probably come out to $300...


I agree if this is a competitor just sell a better faster router for 
less with install.


On 8/22/2016 8:07 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:

If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
productive will come of it.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman > wrote:

That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the
second one kinda...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373


On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke" > wrote:

A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in
place, and the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...

The CPE radio installation was its own installation service
charge and equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the
router.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman
> wrote:

If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router,
leave)?  That's fine.

If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to
their customers.

Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get
factory defaulted and configured for new customers.

Nothing wrong with this.

If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from
customer pulls and re-selling them to another customer
at $80/piece, and that router was this exact model:


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I
could not in good conscience sell such a feeble,
obsolete $10 router for $80.


This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual
purchase line item on a customer invoice.

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Ken Hohhof 
Why am I envisioning some scheme involving magnets to circumvent Trump’s wall?

From: Craig Schmaderer 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:58 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Something new

Chinese? Come on chuck keep the business local. Try mexico!


Craig Schmaderer
Cell 402-380-1245
Skywave Wireless, Inc.





On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 1:56 PM -0500, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:


Trying hard to keep the cost down.  The magnets themselves are spendy.  Trying 
to find a chinese source I can trust.  

From: Brian Sullivan 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Something new

+1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.  
Would like to see mounting configurations.


On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:

  Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive fast.



  -Ty

  On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen  wrote:

We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that 
supports our pipe mounts 


that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated 
panels. The center had a 900fsk but

we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those pipe 
mounts on that tank and the other 


2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels 


One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still 
holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied

off to the center mast on the tank. 


We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would 
mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.

We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs 
after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount

without it moving.

Those crazy Magnets LOL





On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
  Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype mag 
mount accessory to our tower mounts.
  I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about 100-120 
lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
  If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably safely 
mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.� 


--

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Lewis Bergman 
If this is your competition, I encourage you to forget about it. Nothing
productive will come of it.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016, 7:33 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the second
> one kinda...
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:
>
>> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in place, and
>> the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>>
>> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service charge and
>> equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the router.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman <
>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
>>> fine.
>>>
>>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.

 Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
 and configured for new customers.

 Nothing wrong with this.

 If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
 re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
 exact model:


 http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

 Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
 conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.


 This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on
 a customer invoice.




>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread That One Guy /sarcasm 
There is probably something toxic in magnet production so we ship the work
to the cast offs of humanity since they're expendable and cheap

On Aug 22, 2016 7:34 PM, "Josh Luthman"  wrote:

> Who's got magnets in the US?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Aug 22, 2016 7:58 PM, "Craig Schmaderer" 
> wrote:
>
>> Chinese? Come on chuck keep the business local. Try mexico!
>>
>> Craig Schmaderer
>> Cell 402-380-1245
>> Skywave Wireless, Inc.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 1:56 PM -0500, "Chuck McCown" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Trying hard to keep the cost down.  The magnets themselves are spendy.
>> Trying to find a chinese source I can trust.
>>
>> *From:* Brian Sullivan 
>> *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2016 9:37 AM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Something new
>>
>> +1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.
>> Would like to see mounting configurations.
>>
>> On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:
>>
>> Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive
>> fast.
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ty
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that
>>> supports our pipe mounts
>>>
>>> that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated
>>> panels. The center had a 900fsk but
>>>
>>> we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those
>>> pipe mounts on that tank and the other
>>>
>>> 2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels
>>>
>>> One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still
>>> holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied
>>>
>>> off to the center mast on the tank.
>>>
>>> We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would
>>> mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.
>>>
>>> We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs
>>> after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount
>>>
>>> without it moving.
>>>
>>> Those crazy Magnets LOL
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
>>> Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype mag
>>> mount accessory to our tower mounts.
>>> I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about
>>> 100-120 lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
>>> If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably
>>> safely mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.�
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Josh Luthman 
Who's got magnets in the US?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Aug 22, 2016 7:58 PM, "Craig Schmaderer" 
wrote:

> Chinese? Come on chuck keep the business local. Try mexico!
>
> Craig Schmaderer
> Cell 402-380-1245
> Skywave Wireless, Inc.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 1:56 PM -0500, "Chuck McCown" 
> wrote:
>
> Trying hard to keep the cost down.  The magnets themselves are spendy.
> Trying to find a chinese source I can trust.
>
> *From:* Brian Sullivan 
> *Sent:* Monday, August 22, 2016 9:37 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Something new
>
> +1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.
> Would like to see mounting configurations.
>
> On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:
>
> Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive
> fast.
>
>
>
> -Ty
>
> On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen 
> wrote:
>
>> We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that
>> supports our pipe mounts
>>
>> that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated
>> panels. The center had a 900fsk but
>>
>> we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those
>> pipe mounts on that tank and the other
>>
>> 2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels
>>
>> One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still
>> holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied
>>
>> off to the center mast on the tank.
>>
>> We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would
>> mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.
>>
>> We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs
>> after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount
>>
>> without it moving.
>>
>> Those crazy Magnets LOL
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>
>> https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
>> Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype mag
>> mount accessory to our tower mounts.
>> I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about 100-120
>> lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
>> If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably safely
>> mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.�
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Josh Luthman 
That doesn't really answer the questions though.  Sounds like the second
one kinda...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Aug 22, 2016 7:47 PM, "Eric Kuhnke"  wrote:

> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in place, and
> the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>
> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service charge and
> equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the router.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>
>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
>> fine.
>>
>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.
>>>
>>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
>>> and configured for new customers.
>>>
>>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>>
>>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
>>> re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
>>> exact model:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRE
>>> LESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=
>>> item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>>
>>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
>>> conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on
>>> a customer invoice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] EPMP GPS Problems Increasing last week

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Rogers 
We have been having major issues with several of our sectors.  We even tried 
use a Packetflux, but they seem to ignore the outside GPS...if the ePMP loses 
the satellites, it drops, no matter if they are getting the pulse from the 
Packetflux.  PMP100 radios work flawlessly as the ePMP drop out.

 

Eric Rogers



  

www.pdsconnect.me

(317) 831-3000 x200

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Nate Burke
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 6:20 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: [AFMUG] EPMP GPS Problems Increasing last week

 

We've been running EPMP For a well over a year now.  I have not made any 
firmware changes in a while, everything is on 2.6.1, but last week I had 2-3 
sectors (not all sectors at the site) at 2 sites separated by 20+ miles that 
started having sync problems to the point where I had to set them to generate 
sync.  Is it just isolated to me, or is something going on with the GPS Sky 
thingies that is affecting EPMP?  All radios are using the included GPS 
Antennas, and have been installed for several months.  I'll see either all 
satellites disappear from the monitor->GPS page, or it will show satellites as 
visible but not tracked with an SNR of 0.  I have tried both Software reboot, 
as well as powercycle, and they're are still acting this way.  

I've included the graphs for 3 sectors at the same site.  Blue is visible 
satellites, green is Tracked Satellites.  You can see the NW Sector has 
visible, but is losing tracking.  These were all working fine until last week.

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Craig Schmaderer 
Chinese? Come on chuck keep the business local. Try mexico!

Craig Schmaderer
Cell 402-380-1245
Skywave Wireless, Inc.




On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 1:56 PM -0500, "Chuck McCown" 
> wrote:

Trying hard to keep the cost down.  The magnets themselves are spendy.  Trying 
to find a chinese source I can trust.

From: Brian Sullivan
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Something new

+1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.
Would like to see mounting configurations.

On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:
Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive fast.



-Ty

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen 
> wrote:

We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that supports 
our pipe mounts

that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated panels. 
The center had a 900fsk but

we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those pipe 
mounts on that tank and the other

2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels

One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still holding 
strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied

off to the center mast on the tank.

We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would mount 
to red iron or most flat metal surface.

We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs after 
being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount

without it moving.

Those crazy Magnets LOL



On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
Sorry about the lousy audio.??(1/2) This shows testing of a prototype mag mount 
accessory to our tower mounts.
I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about 100-120 lbs 
of force.??(1/2) So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably safely mount 
a 100-200 lb antenna on it.??(1/2)

--
[X]

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Kuhnke 
It was not specified whether the router was new or used, just "Wifi router,
$80". On top of the already not insignificant (but totally within reason)
new customer service charges for 1 guy to use an extension ladder to bolt a
J-pole to the house eaves, aim a CPE and run about 40' of ca5e.




On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:47 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in place, and
> the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...
>
> The CPE radio installation was its own installation service charge and
> equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the router.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>>
>> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
>> fine.
>>
>> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.
>>>
>>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
>>> and configured for new customers.
>>>
>>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>>
>>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
>>> re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
>>> exact model:
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRE
>>> LESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=
>>> item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>>
>>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
>>> conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on
>>> a customer invoice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Kuhnke 
A CPE radio was installed and aimed, ubnt PoE injector put in place, and
the router connected to the LAN side of the PoE...

The CPE radio installation was its own installation service charge and
equipment fee separate from the $80 line item for the router.



On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>
> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
> fine.
>
> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.
>>
>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
>> and configured for new customers.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>
>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
>> re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
>> exact model:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-
>> WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash
>> =item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>
>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
>> conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>
>>
>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on a
>> customer invoice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Mathew Howard 
I agree with Josh... it depends how they're selling it.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:00 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.
>
> If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
> fine.
>
> If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.
>>
>> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
>> and configured for new customers.
>>
>> Nothing wrong with this.
>>
>> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
>> re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
>> exact model:
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-
>> WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash
>> =item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>>
>> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
>> conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.
>>
>>
>> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on a
>> customer invoice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Josh Luthman 
If it's sold as new?  That's wrong.

If it's sold as a service (go to house, install router, leave)?  That's
fine.

If it's sold as a used product?  That's fine.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:

> Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.
>
> Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted
> and configured for new customers.
>
> Nothing wrong with this.
>
> If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
> re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
> exact model:
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-
> N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?
> hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY
>
> Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
> conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.
>
>
> This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on a
> customer invoice.
>
>
>
>

[AFMUG] WISP ethics

2016-08-22 Thread Eric Kuhnke 
Many WISPs rent routers or sell home wifi routers to their customers.

Some routers are used pulls from other customers, get factory defaulted and
configured for new customers.

Nothing wrong with this.

If you saw a WISP that was taking used routers from customer pulls and
re-selling them to another customer at $80/piece, and that router was this
exact model:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NETGEAR-WNR1000-WIRELESS-N-N150-WIRELESS-ROUTER-RANGEMAX-4-PORT-SWITCH-/171392676852?hash=item27e7ccb3f4:g:D8sAAOSwKPNTzDRY

Would you consider it to be ethically questionable? I could not in good
conscience sell such a feeble, obsolete $10 router for $80.


This is not a 'rented' router, this was an actual purchase line item on a
customer invoice.

Re: [AFMUG] [WISPA Members] localloop.com

2016-08-22 Thread Darin Steffl 
Walk away. Myself and plenty of other members privately have not had the
greatest dealings with them. I don't think you'll find anyone to say
anything positive.


On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Ryan Spott  wrote:

> Does anyone have info on this group?
>
> good bad or ugly?
>
> off-list is fine. I'll summarize to the group.
>
> ryan
> ___
> Members mailing list
> memb...@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/members
>



-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
 Like us on Facebook

[AFMUG] EPMP GPS Problems Increasing last week

2016-08-22 Thread Nate Burke 
We've been running EPMP For a well over a year now.  I have not made any 
firmware changes in a while, everything is on 2.6.1, but last week I had 
2-3 sectors (not all sectors at the site) at 2 sites separated by 20+ 
miles that started having sync problems to the point where I had to set 
them to generate sync.  Is it just isolated to me, or is something going 
on with the GPS Sky thingies that is affecting EPMP?  All radios are 
using the included GPS Antennas, and have been installed for several 
months.  I'll see either all satellites disappear from the monitor->GPS 
page, or it will show satellites as visible but not tracked with an SNR 
of 0.  I have tried both Software reboot, as well as powercycle, and 
they're are still acting this way.


I've included the graphs for 3 sectors at the same site.  Blue is 
visible satellites, green is Tracked Satellites.  You can see the NW 
Sector has visible, but is losing tracking.  These were all working fine 
until last week.

Re: [AFMUG] bounce

2016-08-22 Thread David 

My dns servers dont like google :)



On 08/22/2016 03:30 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

David,
Thanks for the magnet info. I sent an RFQ.
Emails to you directly are bouncing.
Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

dmilho...@wletc.com

Technical details of permanent failure:
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the 
server for the recipient domain wletc.com by mx2.wletc.com.

[AFMUG] localloop.com

2016-08-22 Thread Ryan Spott 
Does anyone have info on this group?

good bad or ugly?

off-list is fine. I'll summarize to the group. 

ryan

[AFMUG] bounce

2016-08-22 Thread Chuck McCown 
David,
Thanks for the magnet info.  I sent an RFQ.  
Emails to you directly are bouncing.

Delivery to the following recipient failed permanently:

 dmilho...@wletc.com

Technical details of permanent failure: 
Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the server for the 
recipient domain wletc.com by mx2.wletc.com.

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Chuck McCown 
Trying hard to keep the cost down.  The magnets themselves are spendy.  Trying 
to find a chinese source I can trust.  

From: Brian Sullivan 
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:37 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Something new

+1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.  
Would like to see mounting configurations.


On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:

  Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive fast.



  -Ty

  On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen  wrote:

We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that 
supports our pipe mounts 


that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated 
panels. The center had a 900fsk but

we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those pipe 
mounts on that tank and the other 


2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels 


One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still 
holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied

off to the center mast on the tank. 


We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would 
mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.

We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs 
after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount

without it moving.

Those crazy Magnets LOL





On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
  Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype mag 
mount accessory to our tower mounts.
  I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about 100-120 
lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
  If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably safely 
mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.� 


--

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Brian Sullivan 

+1  If the price is right, I have a couple places for these.
Would like to see mounting configurations.

On 8/22/2016 9:20 AM, Ty Featherling wrote:
Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive 
fast.




-Ty

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen > wrote:


We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank
that supports our pipe mounts

that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900
integrated panels. The center had a 900fsk but

we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of
those pipe mounts on that tank and the other

2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels

One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were
still holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while
staying tied

off to the center mast on the tank.

We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that
would mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.

We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about
65lbs after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of
the mount

without it moving.

Those crazy Magnets LOL



On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com  wrote:

https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype
mag mount accessory to our tower mounts.
I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about
100-120 lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could
probably safely mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.�


--

Re: [AFMUG] Telescoping Mast me lil brudder made

2016-08-22 Thread Jaime Solorza 
Tak

On Aug 22, 2016 8:13 AM, "Ty Featherling"  wrote:

> Very nice.
>
>
>
> -Ty
>
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Jaime Solorza  > wrote:
>
>> This one goes 28 ft.One he is making me will go 40
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2016 8:06 AM, "Ty Featherling" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Great pictures Jaime. How heavy is it? And what is the max height?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -Ty
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Jaime Solorza <
>>> losguyswirel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 This is his prototype he is letting use for some site surveys...

>>>
>>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Something new

2016-08-22 Thread Ty Featherling 
Very cool. I have looked into mag mounts before but they get expensive fast.



-Ty

On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 9:04 PM, David Milholen  wrote:

> We have used something similar for 12yrs on top of a water tank that
> supports our pipe mounts
>
> that hold a MTOW-3P with one 450AP center and 2 outer fsk900 integrated
> panels. The center had a 900fsk but
>
> we removed it to insert the new 450iAP 900 panel. There are 4 of those
> pipe mounts on that tank and the other
>
> 2 mounts hold a MTOW-3P with 2 pmp450 3.65 AP panels
>
> One of our climbers actually tested the pipes to see if they were still
> holding strong so he supported himself from the mount while staying tied
>
> off to the center mast on the tank.
>
> We also made a single pole mast with 2 of the smaller magnets that would
> mount to red iron or most flat metal surface.
>
> We used it for holding the motorola WLAN CAN which weighed about 65lbs
> after being mounted and our tech was able to stand on top of the mount
>
> without it moving.
>
> Those crazy Magnets LOL
>
>
>
> On 8/19/2016 6:25 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>
> https://youtu.be/s32uO9zQgEI
> Sorry about the lousy audio.� This shows testing of a prototype mag
> mount accessory to our tower mounts.
> I think I can improve on this but it starts to cut loose at about 100-120
> lbs of force.� So I would not rate it over 50 lbs.
> If there were 4 of these on one of our P mounts you could probably safely
> mount a 100-200 lb antenna on it.�
>
>
> --
>

Re: [AFMUG] Telescoping Mast me lil brudder made

2016-08-22 Thread Ty Featherling 
Very nice.



-Ty

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Jaime Solorza 
wrote:

> This one goes 28 ft.One he is making me will go 40
>
> On Aug 19, 2016 8:06 AM, "Ty Featherling"  wrote:
>
>> Great pictures Jaime. How heavy is it? And what is the max height?
>>
>>
>>
>> -Ty
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 18, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Jaime Solorza > > wrote:
>>
>>> This is his prototype he is letting use for some site surveys...
>>>
>>
>>

[AFMUG] Stuff For Sale - Taking Up Space - J-Arms, PTP 230, KP Sectors, FSK Radios

2016-08-22 Thread Tyson Burris @ Internet Communications Inc 
It's not Friday.but I need some room.all reasonable offers accepted.

Off list PLEASE:

 

30 Available:  Brand New J-Arms (from KP dishes) - $6 each + shipping

3 Used KP 120' Sectors 20db (2 have the UBNT box mounted to the back - Make
an offer + shipping

25 Assorted FSK 2.4, 5.7 and 900 radios w/last FW release - $20 each +
shipping

3 PTP 230 Complete Links - Make an offer + shipping 

 

 

Tyson Burris, President 
Internet Communications Inc. 
739 Commerce Dr. 
Franklin, IN 46131 
  
317-738-0320 Daytime # 
317-412-1540 Cell/Direct # 
Online: www.surfici.net 

 



What can ICI do for you? 


Broadband Wireless - PtP/PtMP Solutions - WiMax - Mesh Wifi/Hotzones - IP
Security - Fiber - Tower - Infrastructure. 
  
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail is intended for the 
addressee shown. It contains information that is 
confidential and protected from disclosure. Any review, 
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unauthorized organizations or individuals is strictly 
prohibited.

Re: [AFMUG] AP-5AC-90-HD

2016-08-22 Thread Paul McCall 
Ahhh yes… that’s it…   gonna give this a go I think

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jason Wilson
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2016 7:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] AP-5AC-90-HD

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10153794485326088=pcb.1257227437644564=3

[Inline image 1]

[http://remotelylocated.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/cropped-Remotely-Located-Logo.jpg]
Jason Wilson
Remotely Located
Providing High Speed Internet to out of the way places.
530-651-1736
530-748-9608 Cell
www.remotelylocated.com

On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 4:15 PM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:

I was thinking that too but wasn't sure

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Aug 21, 2016 6:54 PM, "Gino Villarini" 
> wrote:
It was in facebook
Get Outlook for iOS



On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 4:28 PM -0400, "Paul McCall" 
> wrote:
Someone posted a picture (I think it was on AFMUG) of putting up a AP-5AC-90-HD 
with (3) ePMP1000 radios.  I cant find it and was curious of the results of 
doing this?

One would assume GPS sync but I was curious if additional channel separate was 
needed (like low 5 Ghz, mid 5 Ghz, high 5Ghz or whether just “normal” separate 
frequency in the same band)

Does anyone remember who that was?

Paul

Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net
www.pdmnet.com
www.floridabroadband.com