Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
About the lowest we see around here is near freezing (0° C), and we
haven't seen actual freezing temps in at least 3 years or so.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/18/2015 7:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect
to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a
few new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components
rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot). I'd like to retain this
rating, but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD)
in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is
inexpensive at that range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down
to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial
temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available
but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even
more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user
price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even
possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate
to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at
least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this
temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in
the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original
question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to
see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com |
http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
1) Non-industrial temperature range. 2) Note the requirement for a SD card. 3) 2.5W power consumption vs 1W (I sell a LOT based on this alone). 4) Product lifetime - how long are these going to be available (look at the raspberry Pi - how many revs have there been - all slightly incompatible with each other?) and so on. This isn't a 'not invented here' type of issue. I'd love to exploit these, and although I've looked strongly at numerous options, I just haven't found any which I have felt comfortable in tying my company's future to. I've also looked at integrating the processors on these but that doesn't make sense either - you have to buy thousands to get to the cost where it makes sense - for instance, broadcom won't even talk to you unless you buy 10,000 units. That's not to say there isn't going to be a shield or two in our future. -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 11:56 PM, Josh Reynolds j...@spitwspots.com wrote: Honest question. Here's the specs on the ODROID-C1: - * Amlogic ARM® Cortex®-A5(ARMv7) 1.5Ghz quad core CPUs * Mali™-450 MP2 GPU (OpenGL ES 2.0/1.1 enabled for Linux and Android) * 1Gbyte DDR3 SDRAM * Gigabit Ethernet * 40pin GPIOs * eMMC4.5 HS200 Flash Storage slot AND UHS-1 SDR50 MicroSD Card slot * USB 2.0 Host x 4, USB OTG x 1, * Infrared(IR) Receiver * Ubuntu 14.04 or Android KitKat Price: $35.00 - Why aren't you just building a software stack for these that integrates with your other products? Josh Reynolds CIO, SPITwSPOTSwww.spitwspots.com On 05/18/2015 09:41 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: There's a lot of things along those lines: The current sitemonitor base unit has 128KB of program memory, 3808 *bytes* (not kb, not mb) of RAM, and an external 1MB flash storage used for configuration and web page storage. I haven't consumed the entire 1MB flash, but that's largely because of the other two limits, although the new web interface might make a dent in this. I'm now working with a newer processor, it has 2 banks of 1MB each of program memory (primary and secondary for firmware updates), and 512K of RAM. The program memory can also be used for configuration and web page storage. A lot of the stuff we wanted to do (traps, etc,) just didn't fit in the older processor. The newer one obviously has a lot more room for growth - but when you start talking about things like SNMP traps, native IPv6 stack, https://, etc, that just need to be done, you can gobble a lot of that memory without thinking. Then you start saying things like system logs, historical graphs, firmware files, etc., and all of a sudden that 1MB isn't enough. So, you need some additional storage. With a SD card, 4GB is enough that in this application you could think 'essentially limitless'. Which is how I got to this question. Just to be clear, I have a different product (than a base 3) which we're close to releasing. In fact, we had hoped to get it out the door by the end of June, but I think this will slip a bit. I figured I'd rather put this new processor in something a bit less risky and a bit lower volume than the base 3 until we had some experience with it. If it works well, it will form the basis for the next iteration of network-connected PacketFlux products. If not, we might be looking for something different, although it will be hard to find something with the power consumption limits I've placed on it. -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com wrote: Yeah, that could be useful. But why not just store stuff like this in RAM? Perfect example is the throughput monitoring statistics on Canopy. It obviously doesn't persist across reboots. I know you probably don't have a lot of RAM to work with though. Let me give you another example pertaining to the SiteMonitor in particular. If I could have a log of the sync pulse status on a SyncInjector for the last 15 minutes (or 30 minutes, or an hour).. on a 1 or 2 second interval, I could prove to Cambium that their code is broken on the 3.6 450 and it is NOT the SyncInjector. I already know it's not the SyncInjectors, and it's not the SyncPipes either. But I wouldn't need this stored permanently. In RAM is good enough. I just can't/don't want to do SNMP polling of the SiteMonitor every second or two, or five. And 10 seconds is too long, 5 minutes is definitely too long. But for something such as this, you could send an SNMP trap (I know, I know) when the 1PPS active value goes to zero, almost instantly. Just sayin. On 5/18/2015 10:52 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com |
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of physics. Jaime touched on it. Live load. Ambient temp. Thermal conductivity of the enclosure. Surface area of the enclosure. Wind speed at coldest temp. Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure. Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure. Not trivial. Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It would take so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that it could probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or not heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree rise in maybe 5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly. From: Forrest Christian (List Account) Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM To: af Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc. Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
There are times here when it gets really cold, around 35degrees Fahrenheit. ☺ From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account) Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 PM To: af Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc. Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.commailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.comhttp://www.packetflux.com/ [https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons/linkedin.png]http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian [https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons/facebook.png] http://facebook.com/packetflux [https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons/twitter.png] http://twitter.com/@packetflux
[AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
That was my assumption. I wasn't sure if embedded would be cheaper or not to put on the boards. Having more memory doesn't hurt either. I do like the idea of picking my own memory. I assume running on board memory generates less heat than an microSD slot? On May 18, 2015 11:35 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: There are solutions, it just comes down to bits per dollar. A SD card + socket probably costs around $5-6 to implement, including card. For that you get around 4GB (4096MB) or so. Plus if you're picky about the brand you can get a card with built-in wear leveling, etc, so you don't have to worry about that stuff. But you have the temperature issue. For the same price, you only get 32MB (0.032GB) of soldered in memory. Would 32MB be enough? Probably, but there are a *lot* of things you can do if you have seemingly unlimited storage. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Vince West vi...@shelbybb.com wrote: Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at
this site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The
SiteMonitor temp inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So
for at least this situation, it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees
above ambient. The daytime temp is probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal
plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation.
It would take so little energy to get the memory up into the safe
region that it could probably happen in a few seconds. As has been
mentioned, the pre-heat on boot would certainly do that. Once booted,
measure the temperature and heat or not heat. Be a fun experiment.
The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor probably would have
more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree rise in maybe 5 seconds
with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account) mailto:li...@packetflux.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
*To:* af mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect
to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a
few new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components
rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain
this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD)
in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is
inexpensive at that range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down
to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial
temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available
but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even
more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user
price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even
possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate
to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at
least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this
temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in
the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original
question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to
see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com |
http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
We hit –69 here in Utah. (and +116 too, 185 degree spread)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/116318/PETER-SINKS-UTAHS-COLDEST-SPOT.html?pg=all
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:55 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our cabinets.
Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see anytime in the last
year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip will be
–40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at this
site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The SiteMonitor temp
inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So for at least this
situation, it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees above ambient. The
daytime temp is probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal plate
resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It would take
so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that it could
probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot
would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or not
heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor
probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree rise in maybe
5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
To: af
Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to
see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new
products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated
-40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but
I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a
socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least
$30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When
you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive -
and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some
margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to
ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large
chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially
when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which
leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most
people would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip will be
–40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at this site
has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The SiteMonitor temp inside
this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So for at least this situation,
it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees above ambient. The daytime temp is
probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of physics.
Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal plate
resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It would take
so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that it could
probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot
would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or not
heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor
probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree rise in maybe
5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
To: af
Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see
in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new
products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated
-40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but
I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a
socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least
$30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When
you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive -
and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some
margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship
a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk
of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you
add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me
back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would
expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our
cabinets. Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see
anytime in the last year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip
will be –40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
*From:* Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at
this site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The
SiteMonitor temp inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below.
So for at least this situation, it's been running between 10 and 20
degrees above ambient. The daytime temp is probably higher because of
sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal
plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and
insulation. It would take so little energy to get the memory up into
the safe region that it could probably happen in a few seconds. As
has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot would certainly do that.
Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or not heat. Be a fun
experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor
probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree
rise in maybe 5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account) mailto:li...@packetflux.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
*To:* af mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect
to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a
few new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components
rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain
this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD)
in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is
inexpensive at that range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down
to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial
temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available
but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even
more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user
price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even
possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate
to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at
least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this
temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in
the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original
question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to
see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com |
http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Is Utah located near Antarctica?
On 5/19/2015 9:59 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
We hit –69 here in Utah. (and +116 too, 185 degree spread)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/116318/PETER-SINKS-UTAHS-COLDEST-SPOT.html?pg=all
*From:* Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:55 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our
cabinets. Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see
anytime in the last year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip
will be –40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
*From:* Bill Prince mailto:part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at
this site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The
SiteMonitor temp inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below.
So for at least this situation, it's been running between 10 and 20
degrees above ambient. The daytime temp is probably higher because of
sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type
metal plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and
insulation. It would take so little energy to get the memory up
into the safe region that it could probably happen in a few
seconds. As has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot would
certainly do that. Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or
not heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small
the resistor probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a
50 degree rise in maybe 5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account) mailto:li...@packetflux.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
*To:* af mailto:af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally
expect to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a
few new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components
rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain
this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably
microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory
is inexpensive at that range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated
down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty.
Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F
are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name
brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a
$100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and
probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with
some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I
hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for
at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this
temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in
the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original
question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to
see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com |
http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
just sell them with the low cost card with the upgrade option, provide the
cheap card or youre in for a world of hurt on the support side. ship a
preloaded industrial card to the 10% who need it, theyre probably already
spending the extra dough on everything else anyway
On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 8:59 AM, Chuck McCown ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
We hit –69 here in Utah. (and +116 too, 185 degree spread)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/116318/PETER-SINKS-UTAHS-COLDEST-SPOT.html?pg=all
*From:* Bill Prince part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:55 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our
cabinets. Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see anytime
in the last year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip will
be –40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
*From:* Bill Prince part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at this
site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The SiteMonitor
temp inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So for at least
this situation, it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees above ambient.
The daytime temp is probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal
plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It
would take so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that
it could probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the
pre-heat on boot would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the
temperature and heat or not heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal
mass is so small the resistor probably would have more thermal mass. You
could get a 50 degree rise in maybe 5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated
properly.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
*To:* af af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect
to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few
new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated
-40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating,
but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a
socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at
least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands.
When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems
excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100
price with some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to
ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a
large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature,
especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the
device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest
temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
--
If you only see yourself as part of the team but you don't see your team as
part of yourself you have already failed as part of the team.
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Galacticly speaking, yes.
From: Adam Moffett
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:46 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Is Utah located near Antarctica?
On 5/19/2015 9:59 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
We hit –69 here in Utah. (and +116 too, 185 degree spread)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/116318/PETER-SINKS-UTAHS-COLDEST-SPOT.html?pg=all
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:55 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our cabinets.
Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see anytime in the last
year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip will
be –40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at this
site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The SiteMonitor temp
inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So for at least this
situation, it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees above ambient. The
daytime temp is probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal
plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It would
take so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that it could
probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the pre-heat on boot
would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the temperature and heat or not
heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal mass is so small the resistor
probably would have more thermal mass. You could get a 50 degree rise in maybe
5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated properly.
From: Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
To: af
Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to
see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few
new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components
rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating,
but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in
a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least
$30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When
you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive -
and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some
margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to
ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large
chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially
when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which
leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most
people would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
I went Miami in Dec a few years back. It was in low 50s and folks wearing sweaters and coats. I was in short sleeve shirt and asked if I was cold? Really? Jaime Solorza On May 19, 2015 6:46 AM, Paul McCall pa...@pdmnet.net wrote: There are times here when it gets really cold, around 35degrees Fahrenheit. J *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian (List Account) *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 PM *To:* af *Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
That was me a long time ago when I moved from Minnesota to California.
That first winter in California I was in shorts and a T-shirt while
everyone around me seemed to be wearing parkas.
You get acclimatized.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 9:42 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
I went Miami in Dec a few years back. It was in low 50s and folks
wearing sweaters and coats. I was in short sleeve shirt and asked if
I was cold? Really?
Jaime Solorza
On May 19, 2015 6:46 AM, Paul McCall pa...@pdmnet.net
mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net wrote:
There are times here when it gets really cold, around 35degrees
Fahrenheit. J
*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com
mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian
(List Account)
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 PM
*To:* af
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally
expect to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up
a few new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with
components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd
like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably
microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory
is inexpensive at that range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated
down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty.
Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F
are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name
brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about
a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and
probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with
some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I
hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know
for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see
below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power
dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to
my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people
would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian*/CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./
Tel: 406-449-3345 tel:406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside
Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com |
http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Yeah, took the fam to Disneyland in the middle of winter. Coming from Utah.
We were loving it, everyone else were in coats.
From: Bill Prince
Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2015 10:52 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
That was me a long time ago when I moved from Minnesota to California. That
first winter in California I was in shorts and a T-shirt while everyone
around me seemed to be wearing parkas.
You get acclimatized.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 9:42 AM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
I went Miami in Dec a few years back. It was in low 50s and folks wearing
sweaters and coats. I was in short sleeve shirt and asked if I was cold?
Really?
Jaime Solorza
On May 19, 2015 6:46 AM, Paul McCall pa...@pdmnet.net wrote:
There are times here when it gets really cold, around 35degrees Fahrenheit.
J
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List
Account)
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:09 PM
To: af
Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to
see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new
products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated
-40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but
I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a
socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least
$30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When
you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive -
and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some
margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to
ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large
chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially
when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which
leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most
people would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Lowest we see is mid 20s f
On May 19, 2015 7:48 AM, Chuck McCown ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
Galacticly speaking, yes.
*From:* Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 8:46 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Is Utah located near Antarctica?
On 5/19/2015 9:59 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
We hit –69 here in Utah. (and +116 too, 185 degree spread)
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/116318/PETER-SINKS-UTAHS-COLDEST-SPOT.html?pg=all
*From:* Bill Prince part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:55 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-40 is almost 100 degrees lower than we ever see inside any of our
cabinets. Just checking around our network, about the lowest I see anytime
in the last year has been ~~ 50 degrees.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:50 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
I would think the worst case scenario is being cold soaked.
Power is off for a week. Power comes back on. -40 outside, the chip will
be –40.
Pour some liquid butane on it to warm it up...
*From:* Bill Prince part15...@gmail.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 19, 2015 7:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
How about actual data? For the last week, the ambient outdoor temp at this
site has been between 50 (night time), and 60 (daytime). The SiteMonitor
temp inside this 18x16x10 enclosure has been like below. So for at least
this situation, it's been running between 10 and 20 degrees above ambient.
The daytime temp is probably higher because of sun exposure.
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
On 5/19/2015 6:34 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Back to the original question, need more data. It is a question of
physics. Jaime touched on it.
Live load.
Ambient temp.
Thermal conductivity of the enclosure.
Surface area of the enclosure.
Wind speed at coldest temp.
Thermal convection currents inside the enclosure.
Thermal conduction currents inside the enclosure.
Not trivial.
Perhaps use some transistor grease and place a rectangular type metal
plate resistor on the memory. Add a tiny bit of foil and insulation. It
would take so little energy to get the memory up into the safe region that
it could probably happen in a few seconds. As has been mentioned, the
pre-heat on boot would certainly do that. Once booted, measure the
temperature and heat or not heat. Be a fun experiment. The memory thermal
mass is so small the resistor probably would have more thermal mass. You
could get a 50 degree rise in maybe 5 seconds with 1/4 watt if insulated
properly.
*From:* Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 8:09 PM
*To:* af af@afmug.com
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect
to see in your enclosures?
The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few
new products.
To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated
-40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating,
but I'm running into a minor snag:
For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a
socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that
range.
Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to
about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature
range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at
least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands.
When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems
excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100
price with some margin.
So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to
ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a
large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature,
especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the
device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest
temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures.
--
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
[AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Yeah... I have no idea if it would be practical, or even work... but it's an idea. I can't imagine that -13F would be a problem inside an enclosure around here, since they're normally going to be enough electronics in there to make a fair amount of heat, but if there was an extended power outage or something like that, it could certainly happen... and that's really not when you want stuff failing. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:40 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, but Forrest is using all industrial components that are rated to -40C. Are you saying he should add a resistor just to pre-heat the SD slot? ...ok maybe you're on to something there. How about that Forrest? Would a 10cent resistor and 2 minute pre-boot warmup eliminate any issue? On 5/18/2015 10:37 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: You could get around that by putting a heater on board to warm up the components, like the epmp has. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: The danger you have to consider is a cold start, such as if the power was off for awhile. On 5/18/2015 10:32 PM, George Skorup wrote: This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-13F would be the minimum I would expect to see. That is pretty much the minimum OAT here and the enclosures are usually at least 10F warmer. I would expect internal heating to keep the SD warm. What is the failure if the SD card is too cold? The unit won't boot until it warms up? I could live with that in a cold start situation. Mark On 5/18/15 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot). I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- Mark Radabaugh m...@amplex.net 419-837-5105 x1021 m...@amplex.net
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
There are solutions, it just comes down to bits per dollar. A SD card + socket probably costs around $5-6 to implement, including card. For that you get around 4GB (4096MB) or so. Plus if you're picky about the brand you can get a card with built-in wear leveling, etc, so you don't have to worry about that stuff. But you have the temperature issue. For the same price, you only get 32MB (0.032GB) of soldered in memory. Would 32MB be enough? Probably, but there are a *lot* of things you can do if you have seemingly unlimited storage. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Vince West vi...@shelbybb.com wrote: Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Why not NAND flash, or is that what you're talking about? The MT boards don't seem to have too many problems with temperature as far as the flash goes. On 5/18/2015 10:35 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: There are solutions, it just comes down to bits per dollar. A SD card + socket probably costs around $5-6 to implement, including card. For that you get around 4GB (4096MB) or so. Plus if you're picky about the brand you can get a card with built-in wear leveling, etc, so you don't have to worry about that stuff. But you have the temperature issue. For the same price, you only get 32MB (0.032GB) of soldered in memory.Would 32MB be enough? Probably, but there are a *lot* of things you can do if you have seemingly unlimited storage. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Vince West vi...@shelbybb.com mailto:vi...@shelbybb.com wrote: Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com mailto:jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
There's a lot of things along those lines: The current sitemonitor base unit has 128KB of program memory, 3808 *bytes* (not kb, not mb) of RAM, and an external 1MB flash storage used for configuration and web page storage. I haven't consumed the entire 1MB flash, but that's largely because of the other two limits, although the new web interface might make a dent in this. I'm now working with a newer processor, it has 2 banks of 1MB each of program memory (primary and secondary for firmware updates), and 512K of RAM. The program memory can also be used for configuration and web page storage. A lot of the stuff we wanted to do (traps, etc,) just didn't fit in the older processor. The newer one obviously has a lot more room for growth - but when you start talking about things like SNMP traps, native IPv6 stack, https://, etc, that just need to be done, you can gobble a lot of that memory without thinking. Then you start saying things like system logs, historical graphs, firmware files, etc., and all of a sudden that 1MB isn't enough. So, you need some additional storage. With a SD card, 4GB is enough that in this application you could think 'essentially limitless'. Which is how I got to this question. Just to be clear, I have a different product (than a base 3) which we're close to releasing. In fact, we had hoped to get it out the door by the end of June, but I think this will slip a bit. I figured I'd rather put this new processor in something a bit less risky and a bit lower volume than the base 3 until we had some experience with it. If it works well, it will form the basis for the next iteration of network-connected PacketFlux products. If not, we might be looking for something different, although it will be hard to find something with the power consumption limits I've placed on it. -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com wrote: Yeah, that could be useful. But why not just store stuff like this in RAM? Perfect example is the throughput monitoring statistics on Canopy. It obviously doesn't persist across reboots. I know you probably don't have a lot of RAM to work with though. Let me give you another example pertaining to the SiteMonitor in particular. If I could have a log of the sync pulse status on a SyncInjector for the last 15 minutes (or 30 minutes, or an hour).. on a 1 or 2 second interval, I could prove to Cambium that their code is broken on the 3.6 450 and it is NOT the SyncInjector. I already know it's not the SyncInjectors, and it's not the SyncPipes either. But I wouldn't need this stored permanently. In RAM is good enough. I just can't/don't want to do SNMP polling of the SiteMonitor every second or two, or five. And 10 seconds is too long, 5 minutes is definitely too long. But for something such as this, you could send an SNMP trap (I know, I know) when the 1PPS active value goes to zero, almost instantly. Just sayin. On 5/18/2015 10:52 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Honest question. Here's the specs on the ODROID-C1: - * Amlogic ARM® Cortex®-A5(ARMv7) 1.5Ghz quad core CPUs * Mali™-450 MP2 GPU (OpenGL ES 2.0/1.1 enabled for Linux and Android) * 1Gbyte DDR3 SDRAM * Gigabit Ethernet * 40pin GPIOs * eMMC4.5 HS200 Flash Storage slot AND UHS-1 SDR50 MicroSD Card slot * USB 2.0 Host x 4, USB OTG x 1, * Infrared(IR) Receiver * Ubuntu 14.04 or Android KitKat Price: $35.00 - Why aren't you just building a software stack for these that integrates with your other products? Josh Reynolds CIO, SPITwSPOTS www.spitwspots.com On 05/18/2015 09:41 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: There's a lot of things along those lines: The current sitemonitor base unit has 128KB of program memory, 3808 *bytes* (not kb, not mb) of RAM, and an external 1MB flash storage used for configuration and web page storage. I haven't consumed the entire 1MB flash, but that's largely because of the other two limits, although the new web interface might make a dent in this. I'm now working with a newer processor, it has 2 banks of 1MB each of program memory (primary and secondary for firmware updates), and 512K of RAM. The program memory can also be used for configuration and web page storage. A lot of the stuff we wanted to do (traps, etc,) just didn't fit in the older processor. The newer one obviously has a lot more room for growth - but when you start talking about things like SNMP traps, native IPv6 stack, https://, etc, that just need to be done, you can gobble a lot of that memory without thinking. Then you start saying things like system logs, historical graphs, firmware files, etc., and all of a sudden that 1MB isn't enough. So, you need some additional storage. With a SD card, 4GB is enough that in this application you could think 'essentially limitless'. Which is how I got to this question. Just to be clear, I have a different product (than a base 3) which we're close to releasing. In fact, we had hoped to get it out the door by the end of June, but I think this will slip a bit. I figured I'd rather put this new processor in something a bit less risky and a bit lower volume than the base 3 until we had some experience with it. If it works well, it will form the basis for the next iteration of network-connected PacketFlux products. If not, we might be looking for something different, although it will be hard to find something with the power consumption limits I've placed on it. -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 10:36 PM, George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com mailto:geo...@cbcast.com wrote: Yeah, that could be useful. But why not just store stuff like this in RAM? Perfect example is the throughput monitoring statistics on Canopy. It obviously doesn't persist across reboots. I know you probably don't have a lot of RAM to work with though. Let me give you another example pertaining to the SiteMonitor in particular. If I could have a log of the sync pulse status on a SyncInjector for the last 15 minutes (or 30 minutes, or an hour).. on a 1 or 2 second interval, I could prove to Cambium that their code is broken on the 3.6 450 and it is NOT the SyncInjector. I already know it's not the SyncInjectors, and it's not the SyncPipes either. But I wouldn't need this stored permanently. In RAM is good enough. I just can't/don't want to do SNMP polling of the SiteMonitor every second or two, or five. And 10 seconds is too long, 5 minutes is definitely too long. But for something such as this, you could send an SNMP trap (I know, I know) when the 1PPS active value goes to zero, almost instantly. Just sayin. On 5/18/2015 10:52 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
I don't know what you have seen but the percentage of components failing at the lie side of the range is pretty small. Having said that, we might have temps down to +10 f for three days on the extreme side so what do I know. On May 18, 2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
And since the card is going to be trapped in a similarly sized enclosure with slightly more power consumption, it's probably a good indication. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:31 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, that is why I mentioned that it was the internal site monitor temperature. Forrest knows almost exactly how far off it is from the ambient temperature. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: That probe is a lot warmer than the enclosure. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Let me explain it this way: Because I'm worried about the reliability of the SD card, I'm not likely to prevent basic operation and general operation if it fails. There's going to be sufficient memory otherwise for the device to run and operate correctly. The purpose of the additional memory is for various large data storage. An example would be if this hardware made it into a site monitor Base unit, being able to keep all of the firmware images for all of the expansion module types on the SD card. The unit would then pull from there (much faster) to upgrade expansion modules in a fraction of the time. Another example would be supporting email notifications for events - i.e. the temperature is too cold. Without that functionality, the enhanced features would not be available.More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs. And so on. This thread is definitely giving me a lot of things to think about... -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hohhof af...@kwisp.com wrote: I would agree with George’s numbers. Some of our smaller enclosures don’t have much thermal mass or internal heating. With the crazy weather extremes, we could conceivably get down to –25F inside the box for a day, especially the ones we purposely put on the north side of a grain bin to shield them from the summer sun. My question would be, what happens if it gets that cold? Lose some data? Lose the firmware? Permanently damage the device? I could live with some data loss as a result of a record temperature day. But I wouldn’t want to go out and replace a failed unit when it’s that cold. *From:* George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 9:32 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Lots depends on enclosure and its size. For heat dissipation you usually size them larger. You could size smaller and depending what device is inside my supply some heat.Enclosure heaters start at around 25.00 at Automation Direct fyi Jaime Solorza On May 18, 2015 8:34 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: The danger you have to consider is a cold start, such as if the power was off for awhile. On 5/18/2015 10:32 PM, George Skorup wrote: This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
I actually plan on shipping with the SD card inside (i.e. not intended to be end-user removable), but I definitely was thinking that adding an extended temp range version for an appropriate additional price would be an option. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Just to add a couple random thoughts here... 1) Part of my concern is not knowing the cold failure modes. If you attempt to write to a card when it's cold do you destroy the card? Or does getting too cold by itself cause data loss. If I knew for instance that as long as I didn't write to the card below say -10F, I just would read a temperature sensor near the card. 2) I hate heaters. However, there's about 1W dissipated in the new product, so there is some internal heating. -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:52 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: Let me explain it this way: Because I'm worried about the reliability of the SD card, I'm not likely to prevent basic operation and general operation if it fails. There's going to be sufficient memory otherwise for the device to run and operate correctly. The purpose of the additional memory is for various large data storage. An example would be if this hardware made it into a site monitor Base unit, being able to keep all of the firmware images for all of the expansion module types on the SD card. The unit would then pull from there (much faster) to upgrade expansion modules in a fraction of the time. Another example would be supporting email notifications for events - i.e. the temperature is too cold. Without that functionality, the enhanced features would not be available.More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs. And so on. This thread is definitely giving me a lot of things to think about... -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:40 PM, Ken Hohhof af...@kwisp.com wrote: I would agree with George’s numbers. Some of our smaller enclosures don’t have much thermal mass or internal heating. With the crazy weather extremes, we could conceivably get down to –25F inside the box for a day, especially the ones we purposely put on the north side of a grain bin to shield them from the summer sun. My question would be, what happens if it gets that cold? Lose some data? Lose the firmware? Permanently damage the device? I could live with some data loss as a result of a record temperature day. But I wouldn’t want to go out and replace a failed unit when it’s that cold. *From:* George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com *Sent:* Monday, May 18, 2015 9:32 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Yep, NAND flash is what I'm talking about. At quantities matching product sales, 64MB is about as big as you can get at the same pricing as that 4GB SD card. There are some less expensive parallel parts available, but for various reasons, none of them is suitable for this design (the cost of supporting a parallel memory interface is a big one). -forrest On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:45 PM, George Skorup geo...@cbcast.com wrote: Why not NAND flash, or is that what you're talking about? The MT boards don't seem to have too many problems with temperature as far as the flash goes. On 5/18/2015 10:35 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: There are solutions, it just comes down to bits per dollar. A SD card + socket probably costs around $5-6 to implement, including card. For that you get around 4GB (4096MB) or so. Plus if you're picky about the brand you can get a card with built-in wear leveling, etc, so you don't have to worry about that stuff. But you have the temperature issue. For the same price, you only get 32MB (0.032GB) of soldered in memory. Would 32MB be enough? Probably, but there are a *lot* of things you can do if you have seemingly unlimited storage. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Vince West vi...@shelbybb.com wrote: Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
We see -20F ambient once a winter most years. On May 18, 2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Why not both? On May 18, 2015 7:35:37 PM AKDT, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: There are solutions, it just comes down to bits per dollar. A SD card + socket probably costs around $5-6 to implement, including card. For that you get around 4GB (4096MB) or so. Plus if you're picky about the brand you can get a card with built-in wear leveling, etc, so you don't have to worry about that stuff. But you have the temperature issue. For the same price, you only get 32MB (0.032GB) of soldered in memory. Would 32MB be enough? Probably, but there are a *lot* of things you can do if you have seemingly unlimited storage. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:33 PM, Vince West vi...@shelbybb.com wrote: Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Yeah, that could be useful. But why not just store stuff like this in RAM? Perfect example is the throughput monitoring statistics on Canopy. It obviously doesn't persist across reboots. I know you probably don't have a lot of RAM to work with though. Let me give you another example pertaining to the SiteMonitor in particular. If I could have a log of the sync pulse status on a SyncInjector for the last 15 minutes (or 30 minutes, or an hour).. on a 1 or 2 second interval, I could prove to Cambium that their code is broken on the 3.6 450 and it is NOT the SyncInjector. I already know it's not the SyncInjectors, and it's not the SyncPipes either. But I wouldn't need this stored permanently. In RAM is good enough. I just can't/don't want to do SNMP polling of the SiteMonitor every second or two, or five. And 10 seconds is too long, 5 minutes is definitely too long. But for something such as this, you could send an SNMP trap (I know, I know) when the 1PPS active value goes to zero, almost instantly. Just sayin. On 5/18/2015 10:52 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: More applicable to the current design, there's been some requests for on-device logging of enough data so that certain values would have historical graphs
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot). I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
-13f isn't that hateful. It's not that cold here :P Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On May 18, 2015 10:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
The danger you have to consider is a cold start, such as if the power was off for awhile. On 5/18/2015 10:32 PM, George Skorup wrote: This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot). I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
[AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Is there no solution for embedded memory instead of a card slot? I am assuming it is cost prohibitive or it does not work for your project. That being said there have been days in the winter where we see -5° for days in a row. It doesn't happen often. Even with heat generated from equipment, I am not sure how well it would work or how long it would last being so close to the limit for extended periods of time. On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
SD/CF cards freeze in cold weather :( On May 18, 2015 6:09:07 PM AKDT, Forrest Christian (List Account) li...@packetflux.com wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
That probe is a lot warmer than the enclosure. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Ok, but Forrest is using all industrial components that are rated to -40C. Are you saying he should add a resistor just to pre-heat the SD slot? ...ok maybe you're on to something there. How about that Forrest? Would a 10cent resistor and 2 minute pre-boot warmup eliminate any issue? On 5/18/2015 10:37 PM, Mathew Howard wrote: You could get around that by putting a heater on board to warm up the components, like the epmp has. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: The danger you have to consider is a cold start, such as if the power was off for awhile. On 5/18/2015 10:32 PM, George Skorup wrote: This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
I would agree with George’s numbers. Some of our smaller enclosures don’t have much thermal mass or internal heating. With the crazy weather extremes, we could conceivably get down to –25F inside the box for a day, especially the ones we purposely put on the north side of a grain bin to shield them from the summer sun. My question would be, what happens if it gets that cold? Lose some data? Lose the firmware? Permanently damage the device? I could live with some data loss as a result of a record temperature day. But I wouldn’t want to go out and replace a failed unit when it’s that cold. From: George Skorup Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 9:32 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc. Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
Yeah, that is why I mentioned that it was the internal site monitor temperature. Forrest knows almost exactly how far off it is from the ambient temperature. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:28 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: That probe is a lot warmer than the enclosure. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On May 18, 2015 10:23 PM, Jeremy jeremysmi...@gmail.com wrote: The coldest that I saw INSIDE our enclosures this year (accordint to SiteMonitor internal temperature) was 0-C (32-F). Last year was much colder but back then I was using the APC for temperature and backup, and that graph data has all been deleted. I can't say for sure if the temperature in the box was lower, but I doubt it would go too far below 32 with all the equipment and batteries in the boxes. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 8:14 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: Wouldn't the simple answer be to offer the device and SD card as separate items? Then on your site you say, If you want to have storage with the same industrial temperature range as the rest of my product line then buy this card, or supply your own at your own risk. Everybody selling fiber to the radio with an SFP slot does it that way. I always buy their SFP module. On 5/18/2015 10:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot). I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* /CEO//, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./ Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com mailto:forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.packetflux.com/ http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
Re: [AFMUG] Enclosure low temperature
You could get around that by putting a heater on board to warm up the components, like the epmp has. On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:34 PM, Adam Moffett dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: The danger you have to consider is a cold start, such as if the power was off for awhile. On 5/18/2015 10:32 PM, George Skorup wrote: This winter was pretty cold. For about a week straight in the middle of January and again in February, I had a few base units reporting under 0F every night. And I know the outside air temp was -20 to -25F. Obviously take the base unit's temp reading with a grain of salt because it's clearly generating some internal heat. I would bet inside the enclosures it was easily -15F. But I think your -13F is probably OK. On 5/18/2015 9:09 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote: What is the lowest temperature that each of you would normally expect to see in your enclosures? The reason I'm asking is that I'm in the process of developing up a few new products. To date, all of the packetflux products are designed with components rated -40 to +85C (I.E way cold to way hot).I'd like to retain this rating, but I'm running into a minor snag: For storage, I'm planning on integrating a SD card (probably microSD) in a socket. I only need a GB or so, and SD card memory is inexpensive at that range. Unfortunately, all the reasonably priced SD cards are only rated down to about -25C or -13F. which are about ~$3 in qty. Industrial temperature range ones which are good down to -40C/F are available but they add at least $30 to the cost for non-name brand, and even more for known brands. When you're talking about a $100 end-user price, a $30 1GB SD card seems excessive - and probably isn't even possible if I want to meet the $100 price with some margin. So, I'm currently playing the 'what options do I have' game. I hate to ship a product only rated down to -25C/-13F, but I know for at least a large chunk of my customer base they never see below this temperature, especially when you add a watt of power dissipation in the case with the device. Which leads me back to my original question: What's the lowest temperature most people would expect to see inside their enclosures. -- *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.* Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602 forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/fwchristian http://facebook.com/packetflux http://twitter.com/@packetflux
