Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

I think the ACOE requires something 20'+. I would imagine if you're doing much 
of any distance, going 20' - 30' under the floor isn't that big of a deal. Just 
don't lose the shot. ;-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:45:11 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




No, probably 2 feet under would solve it too. Just slightly buoyant. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




1.25” is fine, but it will float. On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down. Chop a hole out of one of the sides 
large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities. 




From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers. 
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40. 
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 




On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Duct is tough.  You could use it as a tow rope.  Just cut a slot on the side of 
the block, skip the duct into the slot and tie a piece of stainless wire around 
the block so the duct cannot come out of the slot if the block comes to rest 
with the slot up.  We used tape to keep the blocks from sliding up and down the 
duct when placing it.  Once on the bottom, the duct floats to the top of the 
cavity in the cinder block.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:51 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

out of curiousity, how would you drop the duct in with the cinderblocks? if its 
40 feet deep, that would be 4 or more blocks suspended at any given time, would 
you just tie rope between them to keep the strain off the duct, or is the duct 
alone durable enough to handle it?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

  Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get 
those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft 
for 1.25", ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead 
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just 
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save 
money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the 
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to 
make strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a 
platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This 
is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run 
past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the 
longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between 
those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history 
of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this 
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Yes, just need to strive to put the slot down when installing or wrap the block 
with some stainless wire.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:48 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

The slot is so you can slip it onto the duct without feeding it through each 
block?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:46:33 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get 
those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft 
for 1.25", ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead 
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just 
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save 
money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the 
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to 
make strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a 
platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This 
is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run 
past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the 
longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between 
those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history 
of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this 
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Steve Jones]

out of curiousity, how would you drop the duct in with the cinderblocks? if
its 40 feet deep, that would be 4 or more blocks suspended at any given
time, would you just tie rope between them to keep the strain off the duct,
or is the duct alone durable enough to handle it?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, <ch...@wbmfg.com> wrote:

> Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get
> those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.
> I calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many
> years ago.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
>
> 1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need
> cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one
> of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.
>
> *From:* Chris Fabien
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> 7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most
> would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per
> ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
> 8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead
> of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just
> direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save
> money.
> 9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the
> $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
> 9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to
> make strong, thin, concrete sections.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> adding to list:
>> 7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
>> 8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
>> 9. good price vendor for handholes
>> 9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get
>> concrete at 80 bucks a yard
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
>>> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
>>> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
>>> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
>>> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
>>> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
>>> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
>>> underwater.
>>> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
>>> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
>>> Here are some questions:
>>> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
>>> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
>>> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
>>> trade off is for DNR stocking.
>>> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
>>> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
>>> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
>>> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
>>> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service
>>> database
>>> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
>>> around here)
>>> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>>>
>>> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
>>> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
>>> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
>>> duct?
>>>
>>> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed
>>> questions on tech specs
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

The slot is so you can slip it onto the duct without feeding it through 
each block?



-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:46:33 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can 
get those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work 
pretty good.  I calculated how much additional weight you needed once 
but that was many years ago.


From:Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need 
cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of 
one of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the 
cavities.


From:Chris Fabien
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 
per ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable 
instead of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this 
I would just direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow 
everywhere possible to save money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in 
the $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard 
to make strong, thin, concrete sections.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, 
so there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the 
mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is 
roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 
feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy 
permit to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't 
know what the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating 
agency around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been 
a history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get those 
half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

  From: Chris Fabien 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would 
be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 
1.25", ballpark numbers.  
  8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
  9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
  9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

  On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete 
at 80 bucks a yard

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

  A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
  This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
  Here are some questions:
  1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
  1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
  2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
  3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
  4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
  5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
  5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
  6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

  In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This 
is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of 
forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

  assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

No, probably 2 feet under would solve it too.  Just slightly buoyant.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network


1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions 
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




1.25” is fine, but it will float. On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down. Chop a hole out of one of the sides 
large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities. 




From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers. 
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40. 
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 




On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need 
cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of 
one of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the 
cavities.


From:Chris Fabien
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 
per ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable 
instead of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I 
would just direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere 
possible to save money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in 
the $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard 
to make strong, thin, concrete sections.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:
A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so 
there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix 
bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is roughly 
8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, 
passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 being 1400 
feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what 
the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a 
history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions 
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Easement Language:
LIMITED UTILITY LINE EASEMENT

AND RIGHT OF WAY



Telecom Company and Land Owner with addresses at 
__  property owner (“Owner”) make this Limited Utility Line 
Easement and Right of Way (the “Agreement”) this _ day of June, 2017.



In exchange for the promises and performances described below, 
which Telecom and Owner hereby acknowledge to be good and sufficient 
consideration for the making of this Agreement, Telecom and Owner agree as 
follows.



1.  Owner hereby grants to Telecom a non exclusive easement and right of 
way across the property of Owner.  This easement and right of way hereafter 
shall be called the “ROW.”  A legal description of the ROW is attached as 
exhibit A and incorporated by reference into this Agreement



2. The ROW shall be for the purpose of installing a fiber optic 
telecommunications line with associated conduit and handholes (the 
“Facilities”)  Owner hereby authorizes Telecom to install the Facilities and to 
do the other acts, described below, that may be necessary to service, enhance, 
improve, alter, maintain, and/or repair the Facilities.  Owner understands and 
agrees that the placement of the Facilities, as well as the need for service, 
enhancement, improvement, alteration, maintenance, and/or repair of the 
Facilities, are matters to be decided solely by Telecom, and that Owner shall 
have no right to influence or interfere with any such decision, provided, 
however, that in the process of making any such decision Telecom shall remain 
subject to any applicable rules and regulations of the (State) Public Service 
Commission. Owner restricts and forbids the building of any additional 
Facilities with out obtaining written permission from Owner.  Owner hereby 
represents, warrants, and guarantees to Telecom that Owner is the exclusive 
owner of the property for the purpose of granting the ROW as described in this 
Agreement.



3. Owner hereby authorizes Telecom to enter on the property for the 
purpose of installing, servicing, enhancing, improving, altering, maintaining, 
and/or repairing the Facilities.  Telecom may enter on to the property at any 
reasonable time in order to install, service, enhance, improve, alter, 
maintain, and/or repair the Facilities.  Telecom may enter on to the property 
at any time in order to make emergency repairs to the Facilities.



4. The ROW shall run with the property (now titled in or otherwise 
owned by the Owner) in perpetuity, and at a minimum shall be a covenant running 
with the property.  Owner agrees to execute a recordable form of this Agreement 
for the purpose of giving record notice of the ROW by filing the same with the 
appropriate county recorder's office.  This Agreement shall remain binding upon 
and inure to the benefit of any and all successors, assigns, heirs, agents, 
and/or employees of the Owner. The ROW is transferable by Telecom to its 
successors, assigns, heirs, agents, and/or employees. Owner agrees to negotiate 
with the successors, assigns, and/or heirs of Telecom to formulate a new ROW 
agreement.



5. Telecom stipulates that it shall do a workmanlike job in 
connection with the installation of the Facilities, and that it shall clean-up 
the ROW at the conclusion of this work, all work and clean-up to be consistent 
with any applicable rules and regulations of the (State) Public Service 
Commission.Telecom hereby represents, warrants, and guarantees to Owner 
that failure to comply and perform according to the covenants stipulated in 
this agreement terminates and voids the ROW.










Joe Walsh

CEO/General Manager

Telecom










Steve Tyler

Registered Agent

Owner

Grantor of ROW 




Then you must include attachment A which has the legal description of the ROW 
running line.  You will probably have to have a surveyor create that for you.
I do my own but I have had training.  





From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.  You want innerduct  buried in the soil several feet under the water. Thia 
would be done by directional boring. 300ft is no problem. Probably "should" 
require erosion/sedmentation control permit and possibly wetlands study. But 
you can get away with about anything in a private location. 

2. Handhole anywhere you want to splice.

3. Always needs a locate tic

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Handholes are made out of polymer concrete.
You have to have extremely dry sand.  Lime, very light weight small aggregate.
You mix it all with polyester resin, like the stuff you make a boat out of.  

Not cheap nor easy.  I made custom handhole lids for a time with our logo on 
them.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
  This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
  Here are some questions:
  1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
  1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking.
  2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
  3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
  4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
  5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
  5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here)
  6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

  In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

  assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Normally, when a parcel is subdivided, a public utility easement (PUE) is 
recorded around the edge of all lots.  
1.Normal duct, not fiber.
1a. I have never had a problem.  But I have never asked permission.
2. One hand hole per two homes, on the property line between the two.  
3. No, your easement/ROW will follow your running line and is expected to cross 
others.  Call before you dig.
4. An easement is like a mini deed to the property.  It outlines that you can 
get on the ROW 24/7/365 to do what you need to do.  It is a “perpetual 
easement” and it “runs with the land” so it is there forever.
5. You call the administrators and get an account.  
5a.You or whoever you send the calls to does the locates.  It is up to you, 
the service just forwards the requests.
6. Sounds like you have asked most of the important questions.  Just do it!


From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Chris Fabien]

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per
ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save
money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to
make strong, thin, concrete sections.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> adding to list:
> 7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
> 8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
> 9. good price vendor for handholes
> 9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete
> at 80 bucks a yard
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
>> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
>> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
>> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
>> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
>> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
>> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
>> underwater.
>> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
>> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
>> Here are some questions:
>> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
>> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
>> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
>> trade off is for DNR stocking.
>> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
>> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
>> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
>> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
>> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service
>> database
>> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
>> around here)
>> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>>
>> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
>> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
>> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
>> duct?
>>
>> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed
>> questions on tech specs
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

Millennium is in the south suburbs of Chicago and great to work with. I've 
attached vCards of two of my contacts there. Just ask Jeremy for copies of the 
last few quotes I've gotten. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:32:32 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 



adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

We just did 2.7 miles for 10 peoplebut those 10 were willing to pay 
something substantial up front.

It's no problem if they're paying for it.



-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/21/2017 2:12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network


I guess I should have run a 10
10. is anybody able to justify 8050+ feet for 8 customers ROI on fiber
10a. this is a testbed, unrelated to the WISP I work for other than I 
plan on backhauling into it for the boss, whether he owns the 
customers, I own the customers or the subdivision owns the customers. 
so theres no build out other than the radio link for the WISP, which is 
close enough for af24, so its a WISP easy, even if we do the "last mile 
(50-100 feet)"


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Adam Moffett <dmmoff...@gmail.com> 
wrote:


1) Never done it, but I'm pretty sure you bury conduit under the 
bottom.

1a) Dunno.
2) You put a handhole wherever you'll need to pull, or anywhere you'll 
need to put a splice enclosure.
3) Depends who wrote it.  I think you'd have to read the terms of the 
ROW/easement to know for sure.  I had to cross a natural gas 
pipeline.they allow it, but their people had to be present for the 
digging and they had some rules about marking the fiber.  Railroad 
easements are notoriously difficult to cross.
4) An easement gives you permanent rights to something, and yes it 
stays with the property.  I'm not sure if it ever goes away.
5) Dunno.  Call the agency and ask them, or check their website.  With 
UFPO you can make the initial request on their website.

5a) Someone pays?  Not around here.
6.  pretty long.  Do it anyway.  Wireless won't meet demand forever 
and you'll need to start getting into fiber to stay relevant in the 
long term.
7.  Google it.but if it's just for these 8 houses why not 1"?  You 
won't need a very big cable.
8.  I'm not clear if you're looking for a cable or a vendor.  For 
underground you want loose tube fiber.  I just got a quote this very 
day for a 12 fiber loose tube for $0.31/foot.  Something like that 
might be fine.  Add a single THHN to use as a locator.  I'm willing to 
bet you can do whatever they want with just that cable and some clever 
splicing.

9.  Google it.
9a. I doubt it.  Small Poly handholes (not traffic rated) are like 
$40.  "Small" is still big enough for a drop cable splice enclosure.  
For traffic rated you're spending a few hundred per boxI'm still 
not sure it's worth your labor time to make forms at that price, maybe 
if you're really awesome at building forms.




-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" <thatoneguyst...@gmail.com>
To: "af@afmug.com" <af@afmug.com>
Sent: 6/20/2017 11:04:12 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so 
there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix 
bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is roughly 
8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, 
passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 being 1400 
feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what 
the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a 
history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Chris Fabien]

1.  You want innerduct  buried in the soil several feet under the water.
Thia would be done by directional boring. 300ft is no problem. Probably
"should" require erosion/sedmentation control permit and possibly wetlands
study. But you can get away with about anything in a private location.

2. Handhole anywhere you want to splice.

3. Always needs a locate ticket called in to state agency. Occasionally
needs a permit/contract usually only for high profile stuff like
transmisson pipelines.

4. If you are going to own this duct and cable then you want a solid
easement for occupancy and future access. We try to get a blanket easement
so we dont have to worry about our path surveyors etc.

5. Youll need to become a utility member of the locate system.

5a. Usic is a locate contractor hired by some utilities. The state agency
just takes calls and sends out tickets. The utility is responsible for
marking the lines or paying someone to do it.

6. It IS hard... too hard is up to you to determine. This project should
require a very significant contribution from the property owners to make
financial sense.

On Jun 20, 2017 11:04 PM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
"fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
trade off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Steve Jones]

I guess I should have run a 10
10. is anybody able to justify 8050+ feet for 8 customers ROI on fiber
10a. this is a testbed, unrelated to the WISP I work for other than I plan
on backhauling into it for the boss, whether he owns the customers, I own
the customers or the subdivision owns the customers. so theres no build out
other than the radio link for the WISP, which is close enough for af24, so
its a WISP easy, even if we do the "last mile (50-100 feet)"

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

>
> 1) Never done it, but I'm pretty sure you bury conduit under the bottom.
> 1a) Dunno.
> 2) You put a handhole wherever you'll need to pull, or anywhere you'll
> need to put a splice enclosure.
> 3) Depends who wrote it.  I think you'd have to read the terms of the
> ROW/easement to know for sure.  I had to cross a natural gas
> pipeline.they allow it, but their people had to be present for the
> digging and they had some rules about marking the fiber.  Railroad
> easements are notoriously difficult to cross.
> 4) An easement gives you permanent rights to something, and yes it stays
> with the property.  I'm not sure if it ever goes away.
> 5) Dunno.  Call the agency and ask them, or check their website.  With
> UFPO you can make the initial request on their website.
> 5a) Someone pays?  Not around here.
> 6.  pretty long.  Do it anyway.  Wireless won't meet demand forever and
> you'll need to start getting into fiber to stay relevant in the long term.
> 7.  Google it.but if it's just for these 8 houses why not 1"?  You
> won't need a very big cable.
> 8.  I'm not clear if you're looking for a cable or a vendor.  For
> underground you want loose tube fiber.  I just got a quote this very day
> for a 12 fiber loose tube for $0.31/foot.  Something like that might be
> fine.  Add a single THHN to use as a locator.  I'm willing to bet you can
> do whatever they want with just that cable and some clever splicing.
> 9.  Google it.
> 9a. I doubt it.  Small Poly handholes (not traffic rated) are like $40.
>  "Small" is still big enough for a drop cable splice enclosure.  For
> traffic rated you're spending a few hundred per boxI'm still not sure
> it's worth your labor time to make forms at that price, maybe if you're
> really awesome at building forms.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steve Jones" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Sent: 6/20/2017 11:04:12 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
> underwater.
> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
> Here are some questions:
> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
> trade off is for DNR stocking.
> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
> around here)
> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>
> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
> duct?
>
> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions
> on tech specs
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

1) Never done it, but I'm pretty sure you bury conduit under the bottom.
1a) Dunno.
2) You put a handhole wherever you'll need to pull, or anywhere you'll 
need to put a splice enclosure.
3) Depends who wrote it.  I think you'd have to read the terms of the 
ROW/easement to know for sure.  I had to cross a natural gas 
pipeline.they allow it, but their people had to be present for the 
digging and they had some rules about marking the fiber.  Railroad 
easements are notoriously difficult to cross.
4) An easement gives you permanent rights to something, and yes it stays 
with the property.  I'm not sure if it ever goes away.
5) Dunno.  Call the agency and ask them, or check their website.  With 
UFPO you can make the initial request on their website.

5a) Someone pays?  Not around here.
6.  pretty long.  Do it anyway.  Wireless won't meet demand forever and 
you'll need to start getting into fiber to stay relevant in the long 
term.
7.  Google it.but if it's just for these 8 houses why not 1"?  You 
won't need a very big cable.
8.  I'm not clear if you're looking for a cable or a vendor.  For 
underground you want loose tube fiber.  I just got a quote this very day 
for a 12 fiber loose tube for $0.31/foot.  Something like that might be 
fine.  Add a single THHN to use as a locator.  I'm willing to bet you 
can do whatever they want with just that cable and some clever splicing.

9.  Google it.
9a. I doubt it.  Small Poly handholes (not traffic rated) are like $40.  
"Small" is still big enough for a drop cable splice enclosure.  For 
traffic rated you're spending a few hundred per boxI'm still not 
sure it's worth your labor time to make forms at that price, maybe if 
you're really awesome at building forms.




-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 6/20/2017 11:04:12 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so 
there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix 
bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 
feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 
houses with the longest distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 
feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about 
this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what 
the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a 
history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Steve Jones]

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete
at 80 bucks a yard

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
> underwater.
> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
> Here are some questions:
> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
> trade off is for DNR stocking.
> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
> around here)
> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>
> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
> duct?
>
> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions
> on tech specs
>