Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Well. The speed of light limitation seems rather secure. So I would propose that we have been visited by roboticized probes, rather than by naturally evolved creatures. And the energetic constraints make it seem likely that they were extremely small and infrequent...though I suppose that they could build larger probes locally. My guess is that UFOs are just that. Unidentified. I suspect that many of them aren't even objects in any normal sense of the word. Temporary plasmas, etc. And others are more or less orthodox flying vehicles seen under unusual conditions. (I remember once being convinced that I'd seen one, but extended observation revealed that it was an advertising blimp seen with the sun behind it, and it was partially transparent. Quite impressive, and not at all blimp like. It even seemed to be moving rapidly, but that was due to the sunlight passing through an interior membrane that was changing in size and shape. It would require rather impressive evidence before I would believe in actual visitations by naturally evolved entities. (Though the concept of MacroLife does provide one reasonable scenario.) Still... I would consider it more plausible to assert that we lived in a virtual world scenario, and were being monitored within it. In any case, I see no operational tests, and thus I don't see any cause for using those possibilities to alter our activities. Ed Porter wrote: Since there have been multiple discussions of aliens lately on this list, I think I should communicate a thought that I have had concerning them that I have not heard any one else say --- although I would be very surprised if others have not thought it --- and it does relate to AGI --- so it is “on list.” As we learn just how common exoplanets are, the possibility that aliens have visited earth seems increasingly scientifically believable, even for a relatively rationalist person like myself. There have, in fact, been many reportings of UFOs from sources that are hard to reject out of hand. An astronaut that NASA respected enough to send to the moon, has publicly stated he has attended government briefings in which he was told there is substantial evidence aliens have repeatedly visited earth. Within the last year Drudge had a report from a Chicago TV station that said sources at the tower of O'Hare airport claimed multiple airline pilots reported to them seeing a large flying-saucer-shaped object hovering over one of the building of the airport and then disappearing. Now, I am not saying these reports are necessarily true, but I am saying that --- (a) given how rapidly life evolved on earth, as soon as it cooled enough that there were large pools of water; (b) there are probably at least a million habitable planets in the Milky Way (a conservative estimates); and (c) if one assumes one in 1000 such planets will have life evolve to AGI super-intelligence --- the chances there are planets with AGI super-intelligence within several thousand light years of earth are very good. And since, at least, mechanical AGIs with super intelligence and the resulting levels of technology should be able to travel through space at one tenth to one thousandth the speed of light for many tens of thousands of years, it is not at all unlikely life and/or machine forms from such planets have had time to reach us --- and perhaps --- not only to reach us --- but also to report back to their home planet and recruit many more of their kind to visit us. This becomes even more likely if one considers that some predict the Milky Way actually had its peak number of habitable planets billions of years ago, meaning that on many planets evolution of intelligent life is millions, or billions, of years ahead of ours, and thus that life/machine forms on many of the planets capable of supporting intelligent life are millions of years beyond their singularities. This would mean their development of extremely powerful super-intelligence and the attendant developments in technologies we know of --- such as nanofabrication, controlled fusion reactions, and quantum computing and engineering --- and technologies we do not yet even know of --- would be way beyond our imagining. All of the above is nothing new, among those who are open minded about (a) the evidence about the commonness of exoplanets; (b) the fact that there are enough accounts of UFO's from reputable sources that such accounts cannot dismissed out of hand as false, and (c) what the singularity and the development of super-intelligence would mean to a civilization. But what I am suggesting that I have never heard before is that it is possible the aliens, if they actually have been visiting us repeatedly are watching us to see when mankind achieves super-intelligence, because only then do we presumably have a chance of becoming their equal. Perhaps this means that only then we can understand them. Or
RE: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Eric, You have made a series of fantastic allegations, and I asked what evidence you had for them, and all you provide is that you have experienced them while under the influence of drugs. I hope --- for your sake --- that for at least some percent of your weekly existence you are sober enough to be capable of understanding how unpersuasive that is --- and why. I understand that you might experience many of the things you say in the theater of your own mind, particularly when under the influence. And I understand that experiences in that theater are real in a meaningful sense. But that in no way means your statements are correct descriptions of external reality, as many of your statements would appear to claim to be. And you have provided no evidence, other than drug induced experience within your own mind, that they are. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:28 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them Thoughts are surely a subset of felt experience. The contact experiences reliably induced by committed doses of for instance psilocibin are objective, not subjective events! They are breaches in consensus reality, they mutate it. I don't know the source of the information I've received when bemushroomed. It could be aeons old and delivered by panspermia. Much of it is presented with great gravity. The experince could easily be a disorienting allergic response evolved on Earth to discourage predation. But that does not explain the intimate Other that appears in the head to take great glee in the interface! It does not explain the reams of art, the many and varied vistas and plateaus, and the challenges one encounters in the psilocibin trance. Either it is offering us all this or it is generated by the brain. Why then is this uniquely characteristic hallucinosis particular to the ingestion of this specific substance? You can read for yourself on the effects I'm describing. But none of this feeds into anyone's theory of mind until we can trap and trace the experiences in question. It is probably quantum. On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What evidence, other than your thoughts when using drugs, do you have for such statements? -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:22 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them What I want to emphasize is that our world is bathed in signals from superintelligent civilizations every day. The way you can put an antenna into the ground and use the Earth to conduct radio frequencies, these things are using the organization of space and time. The laws of physics and the cosmological constants that inform them may arise from the content of communication and computation being performed at the psycho-atomic level, where mind manifests in quark form! What could possibly concern such a superior race! On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription:
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
But that in no way means your statements are correct descriptions of external reality, as many of your statements would appear to claim to be. And you have provided no evidence, other than drug induced experience within your own mind, that they are. Ed Porter The notions of correct descriptions and external reality rather fall apart when one subjects them to careful rational scrutiny, as many philosophers of science have found... The real question to me is what is the utility of the ideas being proferred ... and IMO the jury is still out on that... I do think, however, that it would be a strategic and sociological mistake to associate AGI with UFO-related space aliens or Terrence McKenna style mushroom aliens, at this point in time ;-) ... so, I suggest we can this thread or take it to some other forum... -- Ben G --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
All I've tried to impress is that these revelations, epiphanies, theophanies or what-have-you are at least as primary as the sensations associated with daily life. I am tempted to compare the problem to that of many people speaking about one microscope no-one can access. If the issue is what you see through it then a projector would solve the problem. A digital video output on the locked away microscope would also serve. What I am thinking is... Psychedelic experiences are as encapsulated, personal, and inaccessible as dreams, though not as ephemeral. Like dreams, you could potentially make recordings of the constituent sensations as they arise and translate them onto a receiver sensorium in order to communicate insights, objects and events which resist Englishing. I am talking about VR recreations. Then various gnoses, paradoxes and rap sessions with aliens would be opened to some extent. There is some allusion here to the fate of Gallileo. The solution could be group hallucinations, telepathic drugs or cybernetic telepathy used with drugs, so that a distributed warping occurs. Then these experiences would each carry the weight of a dozen people's sworn testimony. Otherwise, only when some wide-eyed camper returns to civilization clutching the blueprints for a working stardrive will they gain sway with science. Ok... bye :D On 11/27/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Eric, You have made a series of fantastic allegations, and I asked what evidence you had for them, and all you provide is that you have experienced them while under the influence of drugs. I hope --- for your sake --- that for at least some percent of your weekly existence you are sober enough to be capable of understanding how unpersuasive that is --- and why. I understand that you might experience many of the things you say in the theater of your own mind, particularly when under the influence. And I understand that experiences in that theater are real in a meaningful sense. But that in no way means your statements are correct descriptions of external reality, as many of your statements would appear to claim to be. And you have provided no evidence, other than drug induced experience within your own mind, that they are. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:28 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them Thoughts are surely a subset of felt experience. The contact experiences reliably induced by committed doses of for instance psilocibin are objective, not subjective events! They are breaches in consensus reality, they mutate it. I don't know the source of the information I've received when bemushroomed. It could be aeons old and delivered by panspermia. Much of it is presented with great gravity. The experince could easily be a disorienting allergic response evolved on Earth to discourage predation. But that does not explain the intimate Other that appears in the head to take great glee in the interface! It does not explain the reams of art, the many and varied vistas and plateaus, and the challenges one encounters in the psilocibin trance. Either it is offering us all this or it is generated by the brain. Why then is this uniquely characteristic hallucinosis particular to the ingestion of this specific substance? You can read for yourself on the effects I'm describing. But none of this feeds into anyone's theory of mind until we can trap and trace the experiences in question. It is probably quantum. On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What evidence, other than your thoughts when using drugs, do you have for such statements? -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:22 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them What I want to emphasize is that our world is bathed in signals from superintelligent civilizations every day. The way you can put an antenna into the ground and use the Earth to conduct radio frequencies, these things are using the organization of space and time. The laws of physics and the cosmological constants that inform them may arise from the content of communication and computation being performed at the psycho-atomic level, where mind manifests in quark form! What could possibly concern such a superior race! On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:42 PM, Eric Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All I've tried to impress is that these revelations, epiphanies, theophanies or what-have-you are at least as primary as the sensations associated with daily life. I tend to agree ... but unless you are going to tie these ideas in specifically with AGI, this isn't really the right venue for such discussions. Why don't we take this discussion to the Singularity list? (to which I've now cc'd it.) There is a lot more obvious relevance between these musings and the Singularity, than between them and AGI in specific... -- Ben G --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Singularity is a good home for it. Kind of a panicked digression ,_, --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As we learn just how common exoplanets are, the possibility that aliens have visited earth seems increasingly scientifically believable I'm not sure that alien visitation logically follows from the discovery of exoplanets. There have, in fact, been many reportings of UFOs from sources that are hard to reject out of hand. Well I'm happy to report that I can dismiss all the reports which I've read about out of hand, since they don't really constitute good evidence in my opinion. Blurry photos or videos, and anecdotal claims wouldn't stand up to serious scrutiny in a scientific journal. An astronaut that NASA respected enough to send to the moon, has publicly stated he has attended government briefings in which he was told there is substantial evidence aliens have repeatedly visited earth. Unfortunately if you read the biography of this guy it seems that he's held outspoken views on such things for a very long time. Astronauts are not supermen - they're just ordinary people with the same biases and superstitions as everyone else. They're just as likely to believe in conspiracy theories and other wacky stuff. I should say that I do think there is a good chance that the universe is populated with life, but that we have observed no direct evidence of this at present. Also, the existence of life does not necessarily imply human-like life with an advanced technological civilization. Having a large brain is only one minority strategy for reproducing your genes. But, all of the above is off topic, so you can safely ignore it. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Bob, I share much of your skepticism, and many of your reasons for doubting. I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. But I have a tremendous belief in the ability of people to misperceive things and for rational people to develop arguments for unjustified conspiracy-like theories --- so I still remain skeptical. But if one combines (a) the increasing evidence that habitable planet are probably plentiful in our solar system, (b) the evidence of how quickly life originated on earth, (c) the reasonable belief of what amazing advances in intelligence and technology AGI could give to a civilization that survived it and how such technology might reasonably be expected to enable galactic space travel and civilization, (d) that it would take only one civilization that achieved AGI say 10 to 100 million years ago to have distributed itself throughout much of our galaxy, and (d) if one accepts that it is at least possible that not all the people claiming to have seen or recorded aliens or UFO are lying or have experienced misperceptions or delusions or mis-interpretations of their recorded data --- then I think it is not unreasonable to assume that there is --- at least --- a non insignificant chance that aliens are visiting and monitoring us. In my own rather skeptical mind, if I were to make a wild guess I would currently put the probability of this at roughly at least one in ten, a large enough possibility that it should, at least, be considered in discussions of the future of AGI and the singularity. Ed Porter. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 3:27 AM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: As we learn just how common exoplanets are, the possibility that aliens have visited earth seems increasingly scientifically believable I'm not sure that alien visitation logically follows from the discovery of exoplanets. There have, in fact, been many reportings of UFOs from sources that are hard to reject out of hand. Well I'm happy to report that I can dismiss all the reports which I've read about out of hand, since they don't really constitute good evidence in my opinion. Blurry photos or videos, and anecdotal claims wouldn't stand up to serious scrutiny in a scientific journal. An astronaut that NASA respected enough to send to the moon, has publicly stated he has attended government briefings in which he was told there is substantial evidence aliens have repeatedly visited earth. Unfortunately if you read the biography of this guy it seems that he's held outspoken views on such things for a very long time. Astronauts are not supermen - they're just ordinary people with the same biases and superstitions as everyone else. They're just as likely to believe in conspiracy theories and other wacky stuff. I should say that I do think there is a good chance that the universe is populated with life, but that we have observed no direct evidence of this at present. Also, the existence of life does not necessarily imply human-like life with an advanced technological civilization. Having a large brain is only one minority strategy for reproducing your genes. But, all of the above is off topic, so you can safely ignore it. --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
What I want to emphasize is that our world is bathed in signals from superintelligent civilizations every day. The way you can put an antenna into the ground and use the Earth to conduct radio frequencies, these things are using the organization of space and time. The laws of physics and the cosmological constants that inform them may arise from the content of communication and computation being performed at the psycho-atomic level, where mind manifests in quark form! What could possibly concern such a superior race! On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
What evidence, other than your thoughts when using drugs, do you have for such statements? -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:22 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them What I want to emphasize is that our world is bathed in signals from superintelligent civilizations every day. The way you can put an antenna into the ground and use the Earth to conduct radio frequencies, these things are using the organization of space and time. The laws of physics and the cosmological constants that inform them may arise from the content of communication and computation being performed at the psycho-atomic level, where mind manifests in quark form! What could possibly concern such a superior race! On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Thoughts are surely a subset of felt experience. The contact experiences reliably induced by committed doses of for instance psilocibin are objective, not subjective events! They are breaches in consensus reality, they mutate it. I don't know the source of the information I've received when bemushroomed. It could be aeons old and delivered by panspermia. Much of it is presented with great gravity. The experince could easily be a disorienting allergic response evolved on Earth to discourage predation. But that does not explain the intimate Other that appears in the head to take great glee in the interface! It does not explain the reams of art, the many and varied vistas and plateaus, and the challenges one encounters in the psilocibin trance. Either it is offering us all this or it is generated by the brain. Why then is this uniquely characteristic hallucinosis particular to the ingestion of this specific substance? You can read for yourself on the effects I'm describing. But none of this feeds into anyone's theory of mind until we can trap and trace the experiences in question. It is probably quantum. On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What evidence, other than your thoughts when using drugs, do you have for such statements? -Original Message- From: Eric Burton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:22 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them What I want to emphasize is that our world is bathed in signals from superintelligent civilizations every day. The way you can put an antenna into the ground and use the Earth to conduct radio frequencies, these things are using the organization of space and time. The laws of physics and the cosmological constants that inform them may arise from the content of communication and computation being performed at the psycho-atomic level, where mind manifests in quark form! What could possibly concern such a superior race! On 11/26/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Translate into English, please. -Original Message- From: Bob Mottram [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 1:35 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them 2008/11/26 Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I have never experienced a UFO, but several people I have known and generally trusted, and who are not drug users or wackos, have claimed to have seen them directly. belief (Y, foo) belief (X, credibility (Y) minimum credibility (X)) || dominance heirachy (Y) dominance heirachy (X) meme strength (X, Y) threshold = belief (X, foo) --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?; Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com --- agi Archives: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/303/=now RSS Feed: https://www.listbox.com/member/archive/rss/303/ Modify Your Subscription: https://www.listbox.com/member/?member_id=8660244id_secret=120640061-aded06 Powered by Listbox: http://www.listbox.com
RE: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
Since there have been multiple discussions of aliens lately on this list, I think I should communicate a thought that I have had concerning them that I have not heard any one else say --- although I would be very surprised if others have not thought it --- and it does relate to AGI --- so it is on list. As we learn just how common exoplanets are, the possibility that aliens have visited earth seems increasingly scientifically believable, even for a relatively rationalist person like myself. There have, in fact, been many reportings of UFOs from sources that are hard to reject out of hand. An astronaut that NASA respected enough to send to the moon, has publicly stated he has attended government briefings in which he was told there is substantial evidence aliens have repeatedly visited earth. Within the last year Drudge had a report from a Chicago TV station that said sources at the tower of O'Hare airport claimed multiple airline pilots reported to them seeing a large flying-saucer-shaped object hovering over one of the building of the airport and then disappearing. Now, I am not saying these reports are necessarily true, but I am saying that --- (a) given how rapidly life evolved on earth, as soon as it cooled enough that there were large pools of water; (b) there are probably at least a million habitable planets in the Milky Way (a conservative estimates); and (c) if one assumes one in 1000 such planets will have life evolve to AGI super-intelligence --- the chances there are planets with AGI super-intelligence within several thousand light years of earth are very good. And since, at least, mechanical AGIs with super intelligence and the resulting levels of technology should be able to travel through space at one tenth to one thousandth the speed of light for many tens of thousands of years, it is not at all unlikely life and/or machine forms from such planets have had time to reach us --- and perhaps --- not only to reach us --- but also to report back to their home planet and recruit many more of their kind to visit us. This becomes even more likely if one considers that some predict the Milky Way actually had its peak number of habitable planets billions of years ago, meaning that on many planets evolution of intelligent life is millions, or billions, of years ahead of ours, and thus that life/machine forms on many of the planets capable of supporting intelligent life are millions of years beyond their singularities. This would mean their development of extremely powerful super-intelligence and the attendant developments in technologies we know of --- such as nanofabrication, controlled fusion reactions, and quantum computing and engineering --- and technologies we do not yet even know of --- would be way beyond our imagining. All of the above is nothing new, among those who are open minded about (a) the evidence about the commonness of exoplanets; (b) the fact that there are enough accounts of UFO's from reputable sources that such accounts cannot dismissed out of hand as false, and (c) what the singularity and the development of super-intelligence would mean to a civilization. But what I am suggesting that I have never heard before is that it is possible the aliens, if they actually have been visiting us repeatedly are watching us to see when mankind achieves super-intelligence, because only then do we presumably have a chance of becoming their equal. Perhaps this means that only then we can understand them. Or perhaps it means that only then we can become a threat to them. If they are smart enough to get here from solar systems far away, and if they are smart enough to appear to instantly disappear the way many accounts claim UFO's do, then presumably they are smart enough to monitor our communications, decode them, and if they decide necessary for their benefit, to intervene, either benevolently or destructively. Those of you who frequent portions of the web much more wigged-out than I do --- which the entheogen discussing suggested some of you do --- will probably say ho hum, been there, thought that. But whether is it a new thought or an old though --- if alien life forms are actually monitoring us, our achieving AGI would substantially change our relationship to them and may substantially change their behavior toward us --- and that might just be a very important thought. 'd be interested in your thoughts. Ed Porter -Original Message- From: Ben Goertzel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 6:53 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] JAGI submission I could also argue that the limitations on RSI would constrain a hard-takeoff singularity to an explosion of computational power, not of knowledge. But I think that might be a stretch. Not everyone agrees that there will even be a singularity in the first place. You could argue that, but not convincingly
Re: [agi] If aliens are monitoring us, our development of AGI might concern them
It's definitely occurred to me before that alens who came across a planet where the indigenous life had been replaced by their machines in what has been called a negative singularity, that they would see that as sort of like a weedy lot. Technology crowds culture out so the positive singularity scenario really hinges on bringing our whole cultural archive with us and mandating its expression in all the forms our species takes in the future. It was on some psilocybin mushrooms when they presented to me three situations for the end of the world: transcendance by technological singularity, Earth immolated by hydrocarbon flame, and salvation by aliens. But the alien salvation scenario could obviously go either way depending on how they perceive us... and being replaced by machines was one thing we dealt with in my head that session. ^-^ Eric B On 11/25/08, Ed Porter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since there have been multiple discussions of aliens lately on this list, I think I should communicate a thought that I have had concerning them that I have not heard any one else say --- although I would be very surprised if others have not thought it --- and it does relate to AGI --- so it is on list. As we learn just how common exoplanets are, the possibility that aliens have visited earth seems increasingly scientifically believable, even for a relatively rationalist person like myself. There have, in fact, been many reportings of UFOs from sources that are hard to reject out of hand. An astronaut that NASA respected enough to send to the moon, has publicly stated he has attended government briefings in which he was told there is substantial evidence aliens have repeatedly visited earth. Within the last year Drudge had a report from a Chicago TV station that said sources at the tower of O'Hare airport claimed multiple airline pilots reported to them seeing a large flying-saucer-shaped object hovering over one of the building of the airport and then disappearing. Now, I am not saying these reports are necessarily true, but I am saying that --- (a) given how rapidly life evolved on earth, as soon as it cooled enough that there were large pools of water; (b) there are probably at least a million habitable planets in the Milky Way (a conservative estimates); and (c) if one assumes one in 1000 such planets will have life evolve to AGI super-intelligence --- the chances there are planets with AGI super-intelligence within several thousand light years of earth are very good. And since, at least, mechanical AGIs with super intelligence and the resulting levels of technology should be able to travel through space at one tenth to one thousandth the speed of light for many tens of thousands of years, it is not at all unlikely life and/or machine forms from such planets have had time to reach us --- and perhaps --- not only to reach us --- but also to report back to their home planet and recruit many more of their kind to visit us. This becomes even more likely if one considers that some predict the Milky Way actually had its peak number of habitable planets billions of years ago, meaning that on many planets evolution of intelligent life is millions, or billions, of years ahead of ours, and thus that life/machine forms on many of the planets capable of supporting intelligent life are millions of years beyond their singularities. This would mean their development of extremely powerful super-intelligence and the attendant developments in technologies we know of --- such as nanofabrication, controlled fusion reactions, and quantum computing and engineering --- and technologies we do not yet even know of --- would be way beyond our imagining. All of the above is nothing new, among those who are open minded about (a) the evidence about the commonness of exoplanets; (b) the fact that there are enough accounts of UFO's from reputable sources that such accounts cannot dismissed out of hand as false, and (c) what the singularity and the development of super-intelligence would mean to a civilization. But what I am suggesting that I have never heard before is that it is possible the aliens, if they actually have been visiting us repeatedly are watching us to see when mankind achieves super-intelligence, because only then do we presumably have a chance of becoming their equal. Perhaps this means that only then we can understand them. Or perhaps it means that only then we can become a threat to them. If they are smart enough to get here from solar systems far away, and if they are smart enough to appear to instantly disappear the way many accounts claim UFO's do, then presumably they are smart enough to monitor our communications, decode them, and if they decide necessary for their benefit, to intervene, either benevolently or destructively. Those of you who frequent portions of the web much more wigged-out than I do --- which
