Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-28 Thread joem 
On Fri, 2016-09-02 at 09:33 -0500, Joseph Honold wrote:
> A handheld QWERTY device has been my goal for EOMA68 since I found out about 
> it.
> 
> I've been looking at various LCD options and all of the RGB ones that are 
> 3.5"-4" have low resolution (320x240, 480x320, and expensive 640x480).

About $13 spot price for OLEDs with very high definition and paper thin
because there is no need for back light. Some LeTV smartphones for
example. Most vendors don't even boast they are using OLED.
All wrapped up in NDAs so no look in at the moment for
off the shelf high definition OLED generic displays :(
I'm sure that will change with first company to break ranks :)
They would just grow wings and fly off the shelves.
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-22 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Sep 22, 2016 at 4:19 PM, pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
 wrote:

> No, no, that’s not what I meant. What I meant is that when plugging in
> the router card into a desktop housing, it should still work *as a
> router* (as in, bootable and maybe a dumb switch).

 ok, yes, absolutely it should, and there's no reason why it
shouldn't, especially if the designers used USB devices for
networking, and had the good sense to preinstall libre firmware on the
storage inside the Card.

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-22 Thread pelzflorian (Florian Pelz) 
On 09/22/2016 07:33 AM, Joseph Honold wrote:
> On 09/21/2016 10:46 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>>> In a case where a housing is designed to be a router, if I plug my A20 cpu 
>>> card that ships with a desktop gui OS, it is in no way configured to be 
>>> usable as a router.
>>
>>  that's absolutely fine and permitted: i would expect the user to plug
>> in an OTG Cable, plug in an HDMI cable, boot from internal NAND or
>> internal MicroSD and off they go.  in effect they would merely be
>> using the router for "power provision".  if the desktop OS is kept
>> properly patched and up-to-date, the device-tree binaries would
>> already be on the CPU Card, so it would even recognise the USB devices
>> and other hardware of the Housing.  not that there might necessarily
>> be any applications installed which could take advantage of the extra
>> hardware, but that's the user's problem to deal with by installing the
>> applications that they require.
>>
>>  the key bit that's glossed over there is: the user should be keeping
>> the OS (specifically the u-boot and linux kernel) up-to-date so that
>> it is capable of recognising all Housings.  for _that_ to work, all
>> Housings implementers / designers *must* keep the device-tree
>> fragments up-to-date.
>>
>>  any end-user that doesn't keep their OS up-to-date (stops automatic
>> updates from being installed, for example) is "on their own".
>>
>>  the envisaged process isn't perfect, by any means: we do have to be
>> realistic about that.
>>
>>
>>> So, would you deny that the router housing EOMA compliance?
>>
>>  of course not, because the question is a misunderstanding of the process.
>>
>>  anyone who is plugging in (for example) an EOMA68-A20 into a (for
>> example) router Housing is probably the kind of expert who knows what
>> they're doing.  if they're even *remotely* contemplating that kind of
>> re-purposing / mixing-and-matching (and are the first or one of the
>> first to consider doing it) i think it's safe to assume that they
>> would be capable of customising (or entirely replacing) the OS with
>> one that is more suited to the job of "being a router" as opposed to
>> "being a desktop OS".
> 
> If an average consumer buys a housing that claims it is a router and plugs in 
> their old A20 cpu card (that contains a pre-installed desktop style OS) the 
> hardware may be configured correctly per the dtb, but they surely won't be 
> happy when they find out they need to setup a firewall, dhcp server, etc, 
> etc, and much much more. The definition of "plug it in and it works" here is 
> sketchy at best. IMO, "works" means, works as a router like the housing 
> packaging said it would, and I expect most consumers would think the same. 
> Now, average consumer tosses cpu card and housing in the trash and never buys 
> EOMA again because it didn't *just work*.
> 
> Consumers should expect some kind of setup for any new hardware, especially a 
> networking appliance, but asking them to install and properly configure a 
> router OS is preposterous. If you allow a provision for housings to boot, the 
> router housing manufacturer can provide a suitable OS (eg openwrt) and 
> average consumer can be happy.
> 

As a user, I would expect to be sold a router housing and a router
EOMA68 computer card. I would expect the router housing to be able to
host my desktop card as well. I would also expect the router card to
work in my desktop housing.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-16 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Sep 16, 2016 at 5:30 PM, Joseph Honold  wrote:
> On 09/02/2016 09:33 AM, Joseph Honold wrote:
>> I've been looking at various LCD options and all of the RGB ones that are 
>> 3.5"-4" have low resolution (320x240, 480x320, and expensive 640x480). This 
>> lead me to look at MIPI DSI displays which are cheaper with higher 
>> resolution but more complicated requiring a conversion IC. I see mention of 
>> the SSD2828 RGB to MIPI chip in the mailing list which seems low cost and it 
>> is already used in a couple A20 devices. Has anyone had experience with this 
>> chip? It seems u-boot enables it but I'm not sure how linux interacts with 
>> it.
>>
>> http://arm-netbook.phcomp.co.narkive.com/tTYfuse7/rgb-to-mipi
>> http://linux-sunxi.org/SSD2828
>
> I poked #linux-sunxi on irc and found out u-boot (mainline) sets up the 
> SSD2828 device and passes it over to linux (mainline) SimpleFB driver. The 
> MSI Primo 8.1 tablet uses the SSD2828 and has an example configuration
>
> https://github.com/linux-sunxi/u-boot-sunxi/blob/mirror/next/configs/MSI_Primo81_defconfig
>
> I currently have a Marsboard A20 and was able to get u-boot/linux mainline 
> running on it the other day. My plan is to create a ssd2828 breakout board 
> that I can do some testing with the Marsboard in preparation for designing an 
> EOMA68 housing.

 oo good!  if you're intending to do that as GPLv3+ i would like to
put you in touch with manuel (gacuest) as he's using the SSD2828 for
the EOMA68 hand-held games console.


> The eoma68-A20 card is shipping with linux 3.4 and is (of course) possible to 
> upgrade to u-boot/linux mainline.

 yes... because it's the only kernel that fully supports all the
hardware in a stable fashion.  bear in mind that i've done
approximately 50 kernel compiles searching for a stable mainline linux
kernel.  the problem is somewhere around 4.0rc5 and 4.0rc6.  i.e.
4.0rc5 works, 4.0rc6 doesn't.


> How would a special configuration like this be handled
> by the standard where your housing requires a special bootloader/kernel?

 knock yourself out: do whatever you like.  the only thing is, if you
want to be able to call it an "EOMA68-compliant Housing" that's a
totally different matter.


> Is it just a matter of having a boot device on the housing
> (sd card, usb, etc)?

 mmm this came up a couple years ago: it was concluded that this
practice - of putting boot devices onto Housings - would be a Bad Idea
(for EOMA68 compliance)... but that, obviously, if you are not
interested in making a formal declaration "Compliant With The EOMA68
Standard", you're free to do whatever you like.

 the reason why it would be a bad idea to have boot devices on the
housing is of course that when you take the EOMA68 card out and put a
different one in now the new card has no idea how to boot.

 so, they really do have to be self-contained... [if you want to be
able to make a formal declaration, "compliant with the EOMA68
standard"].


> Does the eeprom fit in this process somehow?

 the eeprom we concluded that it would act merely like the USB / PCI
"id".  nothing else.  that would be sufficient to identify the
Housing, with its associated hardware peripherals.  must properly
document that.  from there, u-boot and linux kernel would use that to
pull in "device-tree fragments": https://lkml.org/lkml/2015/11/10/593

Pantelis Antoniou is (has) implemented the required "live devicetree
reconfiguring / adding" hooks that will allow per-housing pre-compiled
BINARY fragments to be selected and incorporated.

 the eeprom's contents (an 8 byte number) will be used exactly as is
done with USB ids to select which "fragment" shall be added.

 the discussion with pantelis included the question, "what happens
when the Housing is live-unplugged or the device is suspended,
resumed, and discovers that it's in a completely different Housing?" -
he'd not considered that as a possibility.

 basically there's a "roadmap"... we're not there yet, but the pieces
are in place.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-09 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 09/09/16 10:31, Alexander .S.T. Ross wrote:
> heres a small table top keyboard from a phone case:
> http://m.banggood.com/General-Wired-Keyboard-Flip-Holster-Case-For-Andriod-Mobile-Phone-4_2-6_8-p-1023861.html?utmid=995

Thanks! Added to spreadsheet.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Joseph Honold 
On 09/04/2016 03:11 PM, Paul Boddie wrote:
> Overlay/keymat production seems quite specialised, but maybe people here know 
> a bit more about it.

So it seems. I've thought a lot about how to DIY a silicone keypad with 
labeling and backlight but still have no way to do it. I'm all ears for ideas

>> Before I found out about EOMA68 I was intending to make a raspi handheld
>> using this keypad layout
>> https://mozzwald.com/public/images/misc/keypad.png
>>
>> Are there any preferred keypad layouts?
> 
> That's asking for trouble! One thing I wouldn't mind knowing is how decent 
> space bars are done using domes. Do they really involve multiple domes, or 
> are 
> there elongated ones that do this job?
> 
> Paul

What trouble?

They do make oblong snap domes: 
http://www.snaptron.com/products/standard-domes/e-series/e-series-oblong/

Makes sense to use an oblong one but it depends on what's cheaper. If three 
regular snap domes are cheaper than one oblong, use the regular size (plus the 
qty discount if they're all the same). 

Never had any issues with my Zipit spacebar that use 3 domes.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Paul Boddie 
On Sunday 4. September 2016 18.50.53 Joseph Honold wrote:
> 
> My idea is to use snap domes attached to a sticker and placed directly on
> the pcb which has exposed copper pads for contacts (keyboard matrix). The
> sticker could be laser (or hand) cut to any shape and snap domes hand
> placed (for prototype). The snap dome method is how most phones (and Zipit
> Z2, see my post https://mozzwald.com/articles/zipit-soft-keypad-mod) do it
> these days. The snap domes are available and I actually got a sample kit
> from Snaptron (http://www.snaptron.com). There are some far east
> manufacturers of snap domes also.

For reference, here are some pictures of the originally-planned successor to 
the Ben NanoNote that show what you're talking about:

http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:AVT2_RC1_keys.jpg

(The circuit boards, employing fairly simple contacts for domes as opposed to 
the oft-seen elaborate patterns that are potentially more suitable for coated-
silicone keymats/overlays, as far as I can tell.)

http://en.qi-hardware.com/wiki/File:AVT2_v1.0_works.jpg

(The "dome sheet" applied to the board.)

Somewhere on that site is a picture of the "dome sheets" being applied by 
assembly line workers, but I can't find it at the moment.

> The difficult part (IMO) is creating the rubber/silicone overlay. A
> prototype could be made by either 3D printing a mold and casting a
> silicone keypad, or just 3D print the keys in plastic (or some other
> preferably soft material). Both these methods should work but I don't
> expect backlight to work well if at all (need translucent material). The
> labeling of keys might be difficult to achieve with 3d printng.

Overlay/keymat production seems quite specialised, but maybe people here know 
a bit more about it.

> Before I found out about EOMA68 I was intending to make a raspi handheld
> using this keypad layout
> https://mozzwald.com/public/images/misc/keypad.png
> 
> Are there any preferred keypad layouts?

That's asking for trouble! One thing I wouldn't mind knowing is how decent 
space bars are done using domes. Do they really involve multiple domes, or are 
there elongated ones that do this job?

Paul

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Joseph Honold 
On 09/04/2016 01:19 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> 
> On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper
>  wrote:
>> On 04/09/16 17:50, Joseph Honold wrote:
>>> My idea is to use snap domes attached to a sticker and placed directly on 
>>> the pcb which has exposed copper pads for contacts (keyboard matrix). The 
>>> sticker could be laser (or hand) cut to any shape and snap domes hand 
>>> placed (for prototype). The snap dome method is how most phones (and Zipit 
>>> Z2, see my post https://mozzwald.com/articles/zipit-soft-keypad-mod) do it 
>>> these days. The snap domes are available and I actually got a sample kit 
>>> from Snaptron (http://www.snaptron.com). There are some far east 
>>> manufacturers of snap domes also.
>>
>> I've seen pictures of these, but I don't think I've used them more than
>> once or twice. I wasn't crazy about them, but they sure do seem like
>> they would make manufacture easier. How does their reliability compare
>> to other mechanisms?
> 
>  metal domes are rated for ridiculous numbers of presses.

5 Million Presses http://www.snaptron.com/products/dome-arrays/specs/

On 09/04/2016 12:51 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
> On 04/09/16 17:50, Joseph Honold wrote:
>> Before I found out about EOMA68 I was intending to make a raspi handheld 
>> using this keypad layout https://mozzwald.com/public/images/misc/keypad.png
>>
>> Are there any preferred keypad layouts? 
> 
> That looks nice apart from the Esc key location. But I'm not sure where
> I would move the Esc key to within that layout: I'd have to experiment
> with it in my hands. Anyhow, users could re-map keys to suit their
> tastes, so that kind of detail may be moot :)

Remapping the keys would be easy enough in the driver. I made that layout to be 
used on a candybar shape handheld (like Malti or Blackberry). I wanted as many 
keys as possible in small but manageable layout and also allow for some game 
playing with choice of dpad left or right. 

For reference, this is actual size pdf with pads for tact switches (not snap 
domes). Screen was to be a 3.2" 320x240 above the keypad.

https://mozzwald.com/public/files/pi_keypad.pdf

Anyways, it's just an example. Need more community input for actual keyboard 
layout, so lets get drawing :D

On 09/04/2016 12:25 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>  easily done with a dual-head 3d filament printer.  there's
> clear/translucent PLA and PETG available.  so, not a problem at all.
> there is also gel-like material available but it's much harder to work
> with and i don't know its durability (personally i wouldn't use it, or
> would research it very carefully in advance).

I'm not experienced with 3D printing so I don't really know all the options. 
Something easily reproducable with cheap printers would be nice. I dunno how 
popular dual head printers are, but I'm sure you could always find someone on 
3dhubs and similar sites to make it for you.

The PocketChip users are already working on some keypad overlays
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1686723
http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1670579

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper
 wrote:
> On 04/09/16 17:16, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
>> Therefore, in pursuit of (2), I made a spreadsheet [...]
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pub?gid=1098274215=true=csv
>>
>> If you want to view the sheet in your browser, then you can do that
>> here, but this requires running proprietary JavaScript which, obviously,
>> I don't recommend:
>>
>> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pubhtml
>
> P.S. These spreadsheets are, as you will see, incomplete. Many fields
> haven't been filled in. Nevertheless, it gives a rough overview of the
> options on the market.
>
> I would welcome patches, formatted as CSV files, if anyone is really
> keen. (Feel free to send them to me, to spare the whole mailing list(s)
> having to receive them.) Otherwise, I will either fill in the blanks as
> time allows, or let the spreadsheet languish if I conclude that making a
> keyboard is better than adapting an existing one.
>
> Thanks, and sorry for the noise!

 nah, knock yourself out, this is what this list is here for.  if it
does get too much we'll break it into separate lists / forums as
appropriate.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 6:51 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper
 wrote:
> On 04/09/16 17:50, Joseph Honold wrote:
>> My idea is to use snap domes attached to a sticker and placed directly on 
>> the pcb which has exposed copper pads for contacts (keyboard matrix). The 
>> sticker could be laser (or hand) cut to any shape and snap domes hand placed 
>> (for prototype). The snap dome method is how most phones (and Zipit Z2, see 
>> my post https://mozzwald.com/articles/zipit-soft-keypad-mod) do it these 
>> days. The snap domes are available and I actually got a sample kit from 
>> Snaptron (http://www.snaptron.com). There are some far east manufacturers of 
>> snap domes also.
>
> I've seen pictures of these, but I don't think I've used them more than
> once or twice. I wasn't crazy about them, but they sure do seem like
> they would make manufacture easier. How does their reliability compare
> to other mechanisms?

 metal domes are rated for ridiculous numbers of presses.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 04/09/16 17:16, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
> Therefore, in pursuit of (2), I made a spreadsheet [...]
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pub?gid=1098274215=true=csv
> 
> If you want to view the sheet in your browser, then you can do that
> here, but this requires running proprietary JavaScript which, obviously,
> I don't recommend:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pubhtml

P.S. These spreadsheets are, as you will see, incomplete. Many fields
haven't been filled in. Nevertheless, it gives a rough overview of the
options on the market.

I would welcome patches, formatted as CSV files, if anyone is really
keen. (Feel free to send them to me, to spare the whole mailing list(s)
having to receive them.) Otherwise, I will either fill in the blanks as
time allows, or let the spreadsheet languish if I conclude that making a
keyboard is better than adapting an existing one.

Thanks, and sorry for the noise!

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 04/09/16 17:50, Joseph Honold wrote:
> My idea is to use snap domes attached to a sticker and placed directly on the 
> pcb which has exposed copper pads for contacts (keyboard matrix). The sticker 
> could be laser (or hand) cut to any shape and snap domes hand placed (for 
> prototype). The snap dome method is how most phones (and Zipit Z2, see my 
> post https://mozzwald.com/articles/zipit-soft-keypad-mod) do it these days. 
> The snap domes are available and I actually got a sample kit from Snaptron 
> (http://www.snaptron.com). There are some far east manufacturers of snap 
> domes also.

I've seen pictures of these, but I don't think I've used them more than
once or twice. I wasn't crazy about them, but they sure do seem like
they would make manufacture easier. How does their reliability compare
to other mechanisms?

> Before I found out about EOMA68 I was intending to make a raspi handheld 
> using this keypad layout https://mozzwald.com/public/images/misc/keypad.png
> 
> Are there any preferred keypad layouts? 

That looks nice apart from the Esc key location. But I'm not sure where
I would move the Esc key to within that layout: I'd have to experiment
with it in my hands. Anyhow, users could re-map keys to suit their
tastes, so that kind of detail may be moot :)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Sep 4, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Joseph Honold  wrote:

> The difficult part (IMO) is creating the rubber/silicone overlay. A prototype 
> could be made by either 3D printing a mold and casting a silicone keypad, or 
> just 3D print the keys in plastic (or some other preferably soft material). 
> Both these methods should work but I don't expect backlight to work well if 
> at all (need translucent material). The labeling of keys might be difficult 
> to achieve with 3d printng.

 easily done with a dual-head 3d filament printer.  there's
clear/translucent PLA and PETG available.  so, not a problem at all.
there is also gel-like material available but it's much harder to work
with and i don't know its durability (personally i wouldn't use it, or
would research it very carefully in advance).

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Joseph Honold 
On 09/04/2016 11:16 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
> It might be naive of me, but my impression is that the hardest part of
> making a housing like this is probably getting the keyboard right. So
> many moving parts; such critical layout, tactility, and reliability
> requirements.
> 
> I figure there are two broad satisfactory options:
> 
> (1) Design and build keyboards using commonly available push-switches,
> combined with PCBs and housings made from designs released as Free
> Cultural Works.[0]

My idea is to use snap domes attached to a sticker and placed directly on the 
pcb which has exposed copper pads for contacts (keyboard matrix). The sticker 
could be laser (or hand) cut to any shape and snap domes hand placed (for 
prototype). The snap dome method is how most phones (and Zipit Z2, see my post 
https://mozzwald.com/articles/zipit-soft-keypad-mod) do it these days. The snap 
domes are available and I actually got a sample kit from Snaptron 
(http://www.snaptron.com). There are some far east manufacturers of snap domes 
also.

The difficult part (IMO) is creating the rubber/silicone overlay. A prototype 
could be made by either 3D printing a mold and casting a silicone keypad, or 
just 3D print the keys in plastic (or some other preferably soft material). 
Both these methods should work but I don't expect backlight to work well if at 
all (need translucent material). The labeling of keys might be difficult to 
achieve with 3d printng.

Before I found out about EOMA68 I was intending to make a raspi handheld using 
this keypad layout https://mozzwald.com/public/images/misc/keypad.png

Are there any preferred keypad layouts? 


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Stephen Paul Weber 
> also bear in mind that from experience with the HTC Universal 
> reverse-engineering doing clamshell phone / pdas is f** complicated.

They can be. But then you also have devices like the pocketCHIP which have 
almost all features I want from such a device (except the 3G) and are pretty 
darn simple. It's a spectrum, I think.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Stephen Paul Weber 
> It would be great to have a housing for the EOMA68 that is of a similar form 
> factor to one of these devices:
>
> - DragonBox Pyra [1]

Isn't EOMA68 too big to work for handhelds?

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-04 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
N.B. I have cross-posted this email to the TinkerPhones mailing list,
because it appeared to be relevant to both the TinkerPhones list and the
arm-netbook list. I hope that this is considered acceptable by users of
both lists. If not, please reply to let me know, and accept my apologies
in advance. Thanks.



On 26/08/16 18:37, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote to arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk:
> It would be great to have a housing for the EOMA68 that is of a similar
> form factor to one of these devices:
> 
> - DragonBox Pyra [1]
> - Openbox Pandora [2]
> - HTC Universal [3]
> 
> or even:
> 
> - HTC Dream [4]
> 
> That is, an enclosure that can fit in a pocket, and has:
> 
> - Hardware QWERTY keyboard

It might be naive of me, but my impression is that the hardest part of
making a housing like this is probably getting the keyboard right. So
many moving parts; such critical layout, tactility, and reliability
requirements.

I figure there are two broad satisfactory options:

(1) Design and build keyboards using commonly available push-switches,
combined with PCBs and housings made from designs released as Free
Cultural Works.[0]

(2) Use off-the-shelf standalone miniature keyboards, at least for
prototyping.

Of these, (1) is preferable, but it appears to be the most work. The
Pyra and Pandora projects presumably invested much effort into creating
their keyboards. Sadly, they have not made the designs available as free
cultural works, AFAIK. (Besides, if I were making my own, I'd probably
want it to have NKRO, and to be able to be swapped out a bit like an
EOMA-68 computing card, so that the user could easily slide out their
QWERTY keyboard and replace it with a miniature version of the
Stenoboard[1] or suchlike.)

Therefore, in pursuit of (2), I made a spreadsheet with all the
standalone miniature keyboards I could find, in the hope that one or
more of them might be viable for cannibalising into an EOMA-68
subnotebook/PDA case, at least for an early prototype.

I don't currently know a good way to collaboratively edit spreadsheets
using only free software. (Maybe use something like PySpread and put it
in a Git repo? Or sign up to MyKolab? Anyhow, that's getting off
topic...) So, I used Google Docs. Blech. Anyhow, you can access the
sheet as a CSV file without having to run any JavaScript, let alone
proprietary JavaScript:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pub?gid=1098274215=true=csv

If you want to view the sheet in your browser, then you can do that
here, but this requires running proprietary JavaScript which, obviously,
I don't recommend:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PD_tAIW7cuiXEe97BrcIRBfF9Sbo07limynxEBhdp84/pubhtml

One striking thing about the current market for *miniature* standalone
keyboards is that there's only *one* USB device I could find for sale:
the CarTFT MiniKey. The others use Bluetooth or proprietary 2.4GHz radio
for communicating with the host computer, and use USB only for charging
a battery.

2.4GHz is often implemented with very poor security (see Samy Kamkar et
al), and some Bluetooth keyboards have, at least in the past, also been
prone to keysniffing and keystroke injection. Maybe that has improved
since people like Mike Ossmann started alerting people to Bluetooth
vulnerabilities, but suffice it to say that I have no interest in using
a wireless keyboard.

Sadly, the USB keyboard (the CarTFT MiniKey) doesn't look very
user-friendly. It appears to have squishy keys, which in my experience
give poor tactile feedback; and it lacks Esc, Ctrl, Alt and Tab keys,
making it useless for Vim, Emacs, Bash, etc.

I don't know how viable it is to convert one of the more fully-featured
keyboards from wireless to USB (cabled) operation.


***Questions for the list:***

- Are you aware of anyone having successfully converted a miniature
wireless keyboard into a wired USB keyboard?

- Do you know of any existing designs for miniature USB keyboards that
are partly or completely Free Cultural Works (e.g. that provide KiCAD
and/or OpenSCAD files under a GPL license)?

Please post links/info if so.

***

Thanks!


[0] http://freedomdefined.org/

[1] http://stenoboard.com/

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 7:26 PM, Paul Boddie  wrote:

> The Pyra [3] is supposed to be modular (having, for example, a replaceable CPU
> board [4] and potentially other boards), but it isn't certain that the
> hardware (above the component level) will be libre [5]. But it might be worth
> mentioning in any arguments about modularity because the designers clearly
> think that something fairly similar to EOMA68 is worthwhile.

 the pyra discussion on the crowdfunding campaign (there have been
several others) shows that people are definitely interested.
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/really-cool-modular-and-freedom-respecting-computer.77612/page-3#post-1384732

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Joseph Honold 
On 09/02/2016 09:58 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>  well, do add the research that you've done to
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/clamshell_microlaptop/
> 
>  that's what the wiki is there for.  at the same time can you please
> add mention of the SEW291 3G module, and that it's $12 in low volume,
> and that it uses an MSM6260 chipset.

Will do. Really, I'm just trying to keep the *conversation* going and get more 
input from others.
 
>  also, whilst initially it looks really great to add a $1 TI TCA8418
> or other I2C chip, you soon find that you need another $1 chip, then
> another $1 ADC/DAC chip, then another $1 chip, and pretty soon it's
> like "hang on a minute this is f*g stupid, that's $5 worth of ICs
> to do the same job as a $1.50 STM32F072!"

Good point. It all depends on what features get implemented in the handheld.
TCA8418 combined with STMPE811 touch controller/gpio expander seems like a 
possible low cost option. Both have linux drivers so no need for custom 
firmware.

>  also bear in mind that from experience with the HTC Universal
> reverse-engineering doing clamshell phone / pdas is f**
> complicated.  beyond *any* shadow of doubt they are by far and above
> way more complex in terms of I/O than laptops, or even intel desktop
> PCs.

Yeah, the mechanics of the hinge and getting cables from top to bottom would be 
a pain. I'm leaning towards the candybar form factor to keep it less 
complicated.

My list of wanted features:
QWERTY Keypad with backlight
Wifi
Cellular (optional)
640x480 or higher resolution LCD
Touchscreen (resistive)
Ambient Light Sensor (for backlight dimming)
USB Audio (headphone jack, internal mic, ear speaker for phone, loudspeaker)
USB Hub [wifi, audio, cellular, external host port(s)]
Camera (optional, USB)
Micro SD Slot

On 09/02/2016 11:13 AM, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
> Any microphones or speakers (or cameras for that matter), if present,
> should have hardware switches so that they can be kept disconnected when
> not in use, to avoid eavesdropping, key-logging, etc.

We can use MOSFETs (SY6280 or other) as switches to disable power to each 
device independently

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 02/09/16 15:33, Joseph Honold wrote:
> Ultimately, I want to have cellular phone capability
> (voice/data/sms) [... ]
>
> Pyra is nice but wouldn't be a good as a traditional cellphone
> unless you put ear speaker and mic on backside of LCD/lid.

Any microphones or speakers (or cameras for that matter), if present,
should have hardware switches so that they can be kept disconnected when
not in use, to avoid eavesdropping, key-logging, etc.

On 02/09/16 16:52, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>  the hybrid nature of the pixelqi screens was achieved by MASSIVELY
> reducing the viewing angle, to the point where the distance between
> people's eyes became a critical factor.

I've never owned an XO-1, but on the occasions I used them, I really
liked the screens.



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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper
 wrote:

> I don't know if that kind of glass is compatible with hybrid displays of
> the kind I mentioned above. Nor do I know if such hybrid displays are
> even remotely obtainable or affordable in the relevant sizes or with
> suitable interfaces. We live in hope :)

 the hybrid nature of the pixelqi screens was achieved by MASSIVELY
reducing the viewing angle, to the point where the distance between
people's eyes became a critical factor.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 02/09/16 15:33, Joseph Honold wrote:
> A handheld QWERTY device has been my goal for EOMA68 since I found out about 
> it.

:)

> Mouse could be implemented as a "keymouse" (like we use on Zipit, uinput 
> driver). Basically, hold a modifier key and use DPad to move cursor and 
> right/left click buttons.

Or something like Mouseless (recursive 9-box grid) or Mousemove:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6P7gZFtihKM


> What is everyones favorite form factor?

Ideally, a design like the HTC Universal ("clamshell tablet"?), or
alternatively the N900/Neo900 or HTC Dream ("slide"?), with a hybrid
("transreflective"?) screen a bit like the ones Mary Lou Jepsen or Pixel
Qi made for the OLPC XO-1. That kind of screen can be switched between
backlit for conventional computing, and reflective, where it functions a
bit like an e-ink display, reducing eye strain and battery drain.

That way, a single hand-held device would be:

- Mini laptop
- Mini tablet
- E-book reader
- (Phone too, possibly.)

The advantage of the HTC Univeral's design is that when stowed, the
screen is protected from scratches. However, modern glass ("gorilla
glass", etc) potentially makes that unnecessary, which is why the slide
mechanism would be viable.

I don't know if that kind of glass is compatible with hybrid displays of
the kind I mentioned above. Nor do I know if such hybrid displays are
even remotely obtainable or affordable in the relevant sizes or with
suitable interfaces. We live in hope :)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Christopher Havel 
*All* handheld computers are a mess. Google up the PSION Organizer II some
time. My example was made the year I was born... 1986. There are two PCBs
and a ribbon cable inside your average Org2, and the traces on the
motherboard are positively draconian -- they have a habit of jumping from
one side to the other three or four times on their way to the ribbon
cable...

Here, have a picture --> http://archive.psion2.org/org2/images/circuit.jpg

That's just the *top* side of the mainboard... there's a 36-key keyboard on
the other side, along with another plate of spaghetti traces! Mind you
that's the deluxe "LZ64" model, although it's not really any more
complicated than the rest of 'em. For the curious... the three chips at the
top are LCD drivers, HD44780s. The big chip below and to the left is the
HD6303-series CPU (sort of an enhanced Motorola 6800). Below that is the
RAM (all 64k of it, lol) and what I suspect is an early gate array, and
below *those* would be the ROM. Note that it actually uses chip
resistors... the cheaper ones used carbon strips deposited on the board.
Not kidding!

Why do I care? There's a small community still, based around that thing,
and I (not quite realizing what I was getting into) volunteered myself to
reverse-engineer it. I *think* I might've made a mistake...
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Joseph Honold  wrote:
> A handheld QWERTY device has been my goal for EOMA68 since I found out about 
> it.

 cool.

 well, do add the research that you've done to
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/clamshell_microlaptop/

 that's what the wiki is there for.  at the same time can you please
add mention of the SEW291 3G module, and that it's $12 in low volume,
and that it uses an MSM6260 chipset.

 also, whilst initially it looks really great to add a $1 TI TCA8418
or other I2C chip, you soon find that you need another $1 chip, then
another $1 ADC/DAC chip, then another $1 chip, and pretty soon it's
like "hang on a minute this is f*g stupid, that's $5 worth of ICs
to do the same job as a $1.50 STM32F072!"

 also bear in mind that from experience with the HTC Universal
reverse-engineering doing clamshell phone / pdas is f**
complicated.  beyond *any* shadow of doubt they are by far and above
way more complex in terms of I/O than laptops, or even intel desktop
PCs.

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-09-02 Thread Joseph Honold 
A handheld QWERTY device has been my goal for EOMA68 since I found out about it.

I've been looking at various LCD options and all of the RGB ones that are 
3.5"-4" have low resolution (320x240, 480x320, and expensive 640x480). This 
lead me to look at MIPI DSI displays which are cheaper with higher resolution 
but more complicated requiring a conversion IC. I see mention of the SSD2828 
RGB to MIPI chip in the mailing list which seems low cost and it is already 
used in a couple A20 devices. Has anyone had experience with this chip? It 
seems u-boot enables it but I'm not sure how linux interacts with it.

http://arm-netbook.phcomp.co.narkive.com/tTYfuse7/rgb-to-mipi
http://linux-sunxi.org/SSD2828

The TI TCA8418 could be used for a keypad matrix (I2C). There is a linux driver 
already available. This raspberry pi handheld used it and has example dts 
config https://hackaday.io/project/5081-malti

Mouse could be implemented as a "keymouse" (like we use on Zipit, uinput 
driver). Basically, hold a modifier key and use DPad to move cursor and 
right/left click buttons.

Is AR9271 the only fsf supported Wifi chipset? This module might be an easy to 
implement option for built-in wifi 
http://www.skylab.com.cn/en/productview-61.html

Ultimately, I want to have cellular phone capability (voice/data/sms) which 
means non-free modem. The neo900 project is designing their phone to turn off 
power to the modem by the user and effectively removing privacy concerns. Not 
everyone will want a cellphone EOMA housing. This portion could be optionally 
populated on the board or use some off the shelf plug in module. Pyra and 
neo900 are using PLS8 modules which supports 4G. Simcomm has SIM5320 3G module 
used by Adafruit Fona 
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-fona-3g-cellular-gps-breakout/overview

What is everyones favorite form factor? The options I see viable for form 
factor are clamshell (Zipit Z2, Nanonote, Pyra/Pandora), candybar (Nokia E71, 
Blackberry Classic, Malti), Slider (Moto Photon Q, Samsung Galaxy 
Stratosphere). Slider is probably too complicated. Pyra is nice but wouldn't be 
a good as a traditional cellphone unless you put ear speaker and mic on 
backside of LCD/lid. Zipit/Nanonote size would work as a phone but screen size 
is limited.

Maybe adding full voice phone support is asking too much, but I like the idea :)


On 08/26/2016 12:37 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper wrote:
> It would be great to have a housing for the EOMA68 that is of a similar
> form factor to one of these devices:
> 
> - DragonBox Pyra [1]
> - Openbox Pandora [2]
> - HTC Universal [3]
> 
> or even:
> 
> - HTC Dream [4]
> 
> That is, an enclosure that can fit in a pocket, and has:
> 
> - Hardware QWERTY keyboard
> - Touchscreen (resistive, ideally) that opens out from the keyboard
> - TRRS audio I/O
> - USB OTG
> 
> Something like a miniature tablet PC, essentially.
> 
> Bonus points if it is also "ruggedized": waterproof, shockproof, etc.
> 
> Likewise if it incorporates a trackpoint or similar, for using the mouse
> cursor without needing to touch the screen.[5]
> 
> Goes without saying that it should be licensed as a Free Cultural
> Work[6], i.e. under GPLv3 or suchlike.
> 
> Why would it be great? Well, traditionally, people using a PDA had to
> synchronise their information between their desktop or laptop and the
> PDA, e.g. via a cable or IrDA[7] or Bluetooth. Now lots of people do
> this via "the cloud", but that just means going via someone else's
> computers, so unless that system is implemented on a zero-knowledge
> basis using client-side encryption basis, then whoever else's computers
> are being used also gets to see the information. That might be really
> private stuff, like contacts and appointments and correspondence. With
> EOMA68, that problem would be solved: while out and about where a laptop
> would be too bulky but a PDA wouldn't, just have the EOMA68 card in the
> PDA housing. When at a desk, put it in the desktop or laptop housing. No
> need to sync!
> 
> That means:
> 
> - No loss of privacy
> - Less need for energy-intensive data centres
> - No need to have two computers when one would do (less e-waste)
> - No worries about race conditions due to data getting updated on
> desktop and PDA before syncing.
> - No headaches, essentially!
> 
> Is anyone working on such an enclosure and PCB?
> 
> spk
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonbox_Pyra
> 
> [2]
> https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/the-day-the-pandora-goes-even-more-open.74432/
> 
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Universal
> 
> [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Dream
> 
> [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4t9Ys8wI6k#t=4m45s
> 
> [6] http://freedomdefined.org/
> 
> [7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_Data_Association
> 
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Alexander .S.T. Ross 
On 26/08/16 19:14, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross
>  wrote:
>> heres a pad to make notes/ draft ideas:
>> https://public.pad.fsfe.org/p/eoma68_handheld
> 
>  i'd prefer it be kept on the wiki page
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/clamshell_microlaptop/ i can
> set up a pad at some point... if you're going to use an external pad
> please link it to that wiki page.
> 
> l.
yea i agree.

had trouble earlier added a wiki page


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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Alexander .S.T. Ross
 wrote:
> heres a pad to make notes/ draft ideas:
> https://public.pad.fsfe.org/p/eoma68_handheld

 i'd prefer it be kept on the wiki page
http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/clamshell_microlaptop/ i can
set up a pad at some point... if you're going to use an external pad
please link it to that wiki page.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
On 26/08/16 18:51, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 6:37 PM, Sam Pablo Kuper
>  wrote:
>> - HTC Universal [3]
> 
>  i had one of those - i was part of the original team that did the HTC
> reverse-engineering on 9 (!) different Wince smartphones back around
> 2003.  it was - and still most likely is - one of the most complex and
> comprehensive hardware designs i've *ever* encountered.  the Audio IC
> (an Akai 4641 i think) covered *SEVEN* separate audio paths, including
> 2 microphones, 4 speakers (reversible lid, remember?), car stereo
> mode, bluetooth mode, and headphone / mic jack.  absolutely mad.

It was very functional. Great hardware in many ways. Sadly, the device
as a whole was underpowered and had a somewhat mediocre OS. EOMA68 +
GNU/Linux would remedy those deficiencies!

Kudos for working on the reverse engineering.

>  bear in mind that any of these ideas require a full-time committment
> of around 2 years to develop.  yes i really want to see them happen.
> we'll find a way.
> 
>  in the meantime i cut/paste your message to here so it doesn't get forgotten:
> http://rhombus-tech.net/community_ideas/clamshell_microlaptop/

Thanks!

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Alexander .S.T. Ross 
heres a pad to make notes/ draft ideas:
https://public.pad.fsfe.org/p/eoma68_handheld

it would also be awesome if it had (stereo?) pro mic builtin or
attachment points for a little usb mic like the gomic[1] . i have one of
these
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Samson-Go-Mic-/272351803409?hash=item3f696eb811:g:za0AAOSw0UdXvb1u
the noise floor isnt pro but im able to do stuff with it.

maybe im asking for too much and all this stuff will just make it extra
bulky. anyway pro audio is quite bulky and the right setup for the right
environment varies a lot so i guess usb mic strapped on, is the way to
go. a separate project could be a eoma-* pro audio recorder with XLRs
and everything.

so i guess the main thing would be to have attachment points, threaded
holes for screws? loops to put a strap though? with usb sockets not just
on the side edge but on the back of the lid so the cables where not in
the way of harm.

[1]
http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=gomic_rvr_id=1083204681464=search

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Alexander .S.T. Ross 
yea, i would love one. been making do with zipits with hacked on addon
packs but this would be a lot better.

storage wise does one use sd cards or cheap or fancy usb flash drives?
cus you can get 256GB for err around £30 and a 256GB ssd in a usb dongle
package for err something like £80-£100+.

sd cards have the advantage of standard size but then theres the
electronics to go with them which needs space. wheres flash drives only
need a usb but are in non-standard size so a comportment to put them in
could end up being more bulky than 2x sd cards.

hmm arr what to do :/

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[Arm-netbook] Future case idea: subnotebook/PDA with QWERTY keyboard

2016-08-26 Thread Sam Pablo Kuper 
It would be great to have a housing for the EOMA68 that is of a similar
form factor to one of these devices:

- DragonBox Pyra [1]
- Openbox Pandora [2]
- HTC Universal [3]

or even:

- HTC Dream [4]

That is, an enclosure that can fit in a pocket, and has:

- Hardware QWERTY keyboard
- Touchscreen (resistive, ideally) that opens out from the keyboard
- TRRS audio I/O
- USB OTG

Something like a miniature tablet PC, essentially.

Bonus points if it is also "ruggedized": waterproof, shockproof, etc.

Likewise if it incorporates a trackpoint or similar, for using the mouse
cursor without needing to touch the screen.[5]

Goes without saying that it should be licensed as a Free Cultural
Work[6], i.e. under GPLv3 or suchlike.

Why would it be great? Well, traditionally, people using a PDA had to
synchronise their information between their desktop or laptop and the
PDA, e.g. via a cable or IrDA[7] or Bluetooth. Now lots of people do
this via "the cloud", but that just means going via someone else's
computers, so unless that system is implemented on a zero-knowledge
basis using client-side encryption basis, then whoever else's computers
are being used also gets to see the information. That might be really
private stuff, like contacts and appointments and correspondence. With
EOMA68, that problem would be solved: while out and about where a laptop
would be too bulky but a PDA wouldn't, just have the EOMA68 card in the
PDA housing. When at a desk, put it in the desktop or laptop housing. No
need to sync!

That means:

- No loss of privacy
- Less need for energy-intensive data centres
- No need to have two computers when one would do (less e-waste)
- No worries about race conditions due to data getting updated on
desktop and PDA before syncing.
- No headaches, essentially!

Is anyone working on such an enclosure and PCB?

spk

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonbox_Pyra

[2]
https://pyra-handheld.com/boards/threads/the-day-the-pandora-goes-even-more-open.74432/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Universal

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HTC_Dream

[5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d4t9Ys8wI6k#t=4m45s

[6] http://freedomdefined.org/

[7] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared_Data_Association

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