Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Ok, this is odd. First of all, to Criss, you don't need to keep the windows p e disk in the drive while installing longhorn. The windows preinstallation environment is loaded into memory when your computer starts, probably the reason why it takes like 3 minutes at least to boot. This is so you can insert another disk for an operating system or a repair program. So, why don't you burn the longhorn 4074 build to an actual disk. Once the vm starts talking, you can remove the disk, and insert your longhorn dvd. You don't want to change where the drive points to while in the vm. Now for my issue. I got a 6.0.5000 or something, and shouldn't have. It's probably vista. I installed, and when it came to drive partitioning, I did it like I did windos 7. Added a new partition on the unalicated space, by clicking new. Then hit the apply button on the maximum space and it said that windows failed to create the partition. However, I still see the partition in the list a nd it still allows me to format and goes through install just fine. I remove the disk after the speech is gone since I know from installing windows 7 you need to remove the disk as the thing boots up so that it doesn't try to boot the install disk again thus failing installation. I have the same issue. No sound. I need to install the 4074 build since that is longhorn. I'll ask Miguel, my low vision friend I have to look at it for me since he knows about longhorn. Hopefully then I can get sound.URL: http://audiogamesforum.captivatingsound.com/viewtopic.php?pid=174578#p174578 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup yeah it does. but my friend Miguel knows about how to get it to work and he has some vision so he can install it and i will give y'all a custom made vm of longhorn once that's done.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171958#p171958 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup I think Windows 8 now has proper support for HD Audio, yeah.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171935#p171935 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup i'm not sure cuz i use vmware player. when I installed windblows 8 the sound was working straight off after installation, so that sound issues weird. Either windows 8 came with sound drivers, or vmware emulates newly created vm's with your existing driver.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171925#p171925 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Longhorn is the beta of Vista. It was built on the XP interface from what I understand but they scrapped it in favor of that pile of garbage known as Windows Vista.Can anyone help me with this sound issue? Do I just need to install sound drivers? If so, what kind of sound card does Fusion emulate and where can I get the sound drivers?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171906#p171906 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi, Windows longhorn? I never heard about that. What is that about?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171892#p171892 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Well, I tried downloading another image but it appears I went too far since I got what seems to be a beta of Vista. It has Microsoft Anna and has the stupid Windows Vista/7 interface. Interestingly, it had sounds from Vista and XP combined.When was the last build of Longhorn, at least the Longhorn with the pretty cool sounds and like XP with Sam released? This one said copyright 2006 Microsoft.editOk, I got build 4074 installed in Vmware Fusion with some sighted help, but I don't have any sound. I was told it was loaded though, since the start menu with internet and email was showing up.Anyone know how to get sound working on this thing?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171872#p171872 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Well, I tried downloading another image but it appears I went too far since I got what seems to be a beta of Vista. It has Microsoft Anna and has the stupid Windows Vista/7 interface. Interestingly, it had sounds from Vista and XP combined.When was the last build of Longhorn, at least the Longhorn with the pretty cool sounds and like XP with Sam released? This one said copyright 2006 Microsoft.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171872#p171872 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup At least one of the longhorn builds has a bug where it cannot see unformatted virtual disks. I don't know if the one you have is, but try the last 4000 build as the 4000 series were the last ones before the development reset.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171787#p171787 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Hmm, I'm not sure. It idd not indicate which version I was getting, so I just chose the first option. There were a ton of Longhorn images.I actually used the basic image.Maybe it is because its 64 bit. I don't think so since the file was only 600 or so megs. I don't know.Maybe this isn't worth it. If it's just like XP then there's no point.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171783#p171783 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup I wouldn't try this myself. The win7 pe megadisk was supposed to install win7 from the setups on one disk and not point to another you could maybe ask Bryan Smart for help though i'll try and see oh wait, did you get a 32 bit version or 64 bit version of longhorn?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171782#p171782 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Ok, so I have the Talking Windows 7 PE but I have an issue when trying to install Longhorn?I first create a new virtual machine and call it Windows XP Professional.I then load the basic PE disk image and the VM starts up with NVDA talking.Then, I change the CD drive to point to the iSO of Longhorn I got from Winworld.I'm then able to find the setup file using the PE thing and it appears to run just fine. When I press enter on the install longhorn button in the window, it says something about d:\something.dll is missing or corrupt and that Windows setup cannot continue.Why is this? Is it because I'm trying to use a Windows 7 PE that won't run the file?editOk, this is odd. I'm pressing enter on the install file and now it says Windows setup cannot find any valid partitions to install Windows on? Why isn't it detecting the virtual hard drive file that was created with the VM?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171772#p171772 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Ok, so I have the Talking Windows 7 PE but I have an issue when trying to install Longhorn?I first create a new virtual machine and call it Windows XP Professional.I then load the basic PE disk image and the VM starts up with NVDA talking.Then, I change the CD drive to point to the iSO of Longhorn I got from Winworld.I'm then able to find the setup file using the PE thing and it appears to run just fine. When I press enter on the install longhorn button in the window, it says something about d:\something.dll is missing or corrupt and that Windows setup cannot continue.Why is this? Is it because I'm trying to use a Windows 7 PE that won't run the file?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171772#p171772 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi,Check out Bryan Smarts blog, which has the TWPE for 7 and up. I know it works because i used it myself.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171728#p171728 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Any help would be appreciated. I don't have a product key and is the image I downloaded too small? It was around 600 megs.Also, if this still runs on XP, can someone give me a talking Windows XP PE so I can try this myself?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171679#p171679 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup longhorn's worth it, I think it is. At least you can be a witness of the horrible change between xp and vista, which was a piece of crap straight from hell. As for the talking install, if it was really true that he was forced to take it down, it may have been Microsoft claiming it modifying their install.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171674#p171674 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Hmm, well just tried to get someone to help me install Windows Longhorn.Strangely, it said Windows XP Professional.Anyway, I got to the first reboot and then I was told it came up saying something about a fatal error that prevented setup from continuing.Hmm, anyone know why this is and how to resolve it? I'm installing this in VmWare Fusion. Is this even worth it? I'm starting to think not.About the Talking PE, I think the image is still up there.Unfortunately, it seems like it only runs the Windows 7, 8 or Vista setups as far as I can tell.Why would they tell him to remove it?I mean it has the Windows 7 install disk but there isn't a product key as far as I know.Yeah, I agree about MicroCrap and their accessibility.I'm really shocked they haven't found a way to make the Windows install accessible.Well, let's see what we get in the next version of Winblows.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171667#p171667 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Well, get Rick Harmen over. Pass it round. I don't give a crap about what Microsoft thinks they're doin forcing him to scrap windows 7 pe megadisk! Just goes to show how much they care about accessibility!So they're used to be a way to install windows 7 but now, after all he's done her, Microsoft decides to remove it? That's something to talk to the better business buro about!URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171663#p171663 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup There are also keystrokes you can use, that may or may not work. I actually don't remember where the product key entry field is in win8 setup though, since I just use the eval versions which don't ask. Basically, for Windows 7, and mostly 8, it's like this. When the CD stops spinning press alt-n to hit next on the language and region dialog, then press alt-i and wait about 45 seconds or so, I believe this would be where you enter your product key, so just type it with no dashes. Next hit alt-a and alt-n to accept the lisence agreement. press alt-c for custom install, and then assuming you don't want to mess with partitions, which is a bit trickier, hit alt-n and windows should start installing, after 2 or 3 reboots you can then bring up narrator. I went into a bit more detail on another topic, don't remember exactly which one though. I've heard longhorn looked pretty much like XP after the reset for a while, but before they had among other things a ne w taskbar, and I believe explorer was being converted to a .net application which might've been causing problems, since to my knowledge this has not yet happened and is not planned.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171622#p171622 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Yes, unatented Windows installer or by using the talking installer package which is discussed in an other topic here on the forum, but I don't remember what it's called.Yeah, the talking installer in the beta version got removed, which just says a lot about how much Microsoft cares about accessibility.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171616#p171616 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup at SLJ, how is it possible then? unattended windows setup?security reasons? huh? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171591#p171591 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Chandu wrote:this gets me wondering, is it possible to install win8 without sighted asistance?It is possible, yes, but not by using Narrator. It kind of surprises me that Microsoft hasn't found any accessible solution for this yet. I have heard rumors that a talking installer was made for Windows 7, but it got removed for security reasons, said Microsucks! windows is the only pobular operating system which doesn't come with a talking installer.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171586#p171586 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup this gets me wondering, is it possible to install win8 without sighted asistance?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171581#p171581 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Unfortunately, neither windows o s will allow you to use narrator during the instalation you have to wait till account setup. I am not using longhorn yet but I do know a lot. For one thing, windows longhorn is not as extremely evil as windows Hellsta is. It used Microsoft Sam and did not have that dingus Microsoft Anna on it. I think it also looked almost exactly like xp. It may have had a search box at the very least. But the menus aren't badly constructed, and I don't think there are ribbons. I have to say longhorn was the last good beta version of windows after xp before everything got messed up. With that being said, enjoy windows longhorn. Enjoy to the fullest! But if you know someone who has some site they can set up a vm for you for longhorn provided their magnification software works.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171571#p171571 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Longhorn was originally going to be a minor update between XP and microsoft's new planned OS, which was going to be named blackcomb, or something. They were originally building on the source code of XP, but after a while they realized that the development and introduction of features was haphazard, so they reset development using windows server 2003 sp1 code. This did result in several things being scrapped, including some good ones like WinFS, but if the reset hadn't happened, we probably would've waited even longer between releases and got something more unstable than vista. Vista and above do have a lot of features that were slated for the original longhorn, and are sometimes refered to and refer to themselves as post-longhorn.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171529#p171529 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Windows Longhorn was going to be the next operating system after Windows XP.It was built on the XP interface from what I can tell which is kind of why I want to try it out.For some reason, Longhorn was scrapped in favor of Vista the terrible.Hmm, you can't use narrator initially? I know it can be used to create your Windows user account, but not before?If it can be used before, why doesn't it work until it reboots for the first time to install?Ug, Microcrap and their accessibility.Anyway, I guess I'll have to get someone sighted to help me out with this later.It said something about I was going to install an evaluation version of Windows which would expire or something.I got it from WinWOrld and the version is 6.0.3683.0 according to the 7z archive I downloaded.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171526#p171526 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi,The hell is longhorn?Just curiousURL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171525#p171525 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Narrator will not work during the first part of windows installation, you will have to wait at the very least until the first reboot. There's a sequence of keystrokes for windows 7 that almost always get through the first screens, installing to one primary partition, but I'm sure they're different for longhorn. If it's a more recent build, after it reboots once or twice, you could try windows-u. depending on how similar it is to vista, you may get spoken prompts to start an accessibility tool, or you may not. I've not ever bothered to test any build of longhorn as there are so many of them, so don't know how similar your version will be to vista. I doubt you were "lied to," whoever told you about narrator during installation was probably either talking about the second graphical phase of setup, or was operating under a mistaken impression.URL: http://forum.audiogam es.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171503#p171503 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: [Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Re: Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Narrator will not work during the first part of windows installation, you will have to wait at the very least until the first reboot. There's a sequence of keystrokes for windows 7 that almost always get through the first screens, installing to one primary partition, but I'm sure they're different for longhorn. If it's a more recent build, after it reboots once or twice, you could try windows-u. depending on how similar it is to vista, you may get spoken prompts to start an accessibility tool, or you may not. I've not ever bothered to test any build of longhorn as there are so many of them, so don't know how similar your version will be to vista. I doubt you were "lied to," whoever told you about narrator during installation was probably either talking about the second graphical phase of setup, or was operation under a mistaken impression.URL: http://forum.audiogam es.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171503#p171503 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
[Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Ok, so I found a version of Windows Longhorn and I'm trying to install it into a virtual machine on my mac.Someone told me that you could press Windows u and find the narrator icon and that it would allow you to use narrator in Windows installation.I tried to get someone sighted to help me but all I got was a welcome screen and I pressed Windows u or command u I was told it said something about Windows recovery console or something like that.So, is it really true that you can use Windows U during Windows installation to have speech and if so, how do I activate narrator? If not, was I lied to?I've never heard this before so it kind of interests me as I want to know if you can install Windows with narrator and speech. I also want to try out Longhorn.So, if I was just lied to, someone let me know.If not, how do I go about enabling narrator in Windows install?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171501#p171501 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
[Audiogames-reflector] Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup
Enabling Narrator in Windows Longhorn setup Hi.Ok, so I found a version of Windows Longhorn and I'm trying to install it into a virtual machine on my mac.Someone told me that you could press Windows u and find the narrator icon and that it would allow you to use narrator in Windows installation.I tried to get someone sighted to help me but all I got was a welcome screen and I pressed Windows u or command u I was told it said something about Windows recovery console or something like that.So, is it really true that you can use Windows U during Windows installation to have speech and if so, how do I activate narrator? If not, was I lied to?I've never heard this before so it kind of interests me as I want to know if you can install Windows without speech. I also want to try out Longhorn.So, if I was just lied to, someone let me know.If not, how do I go about enabling narrator in Windows install?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=171501#p171501 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com http://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
