Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? It seems that they have been investigating SARS viruses since 2002, so its not one year. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621683/#p621683 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? You are close, but not very close.According to the data, The patients died of their underlying disease in a coincidental time with the vaccination. They were very seriously ill patients with many underlying diseases.If the elderly, or people with severe pre-existing conditions are vaccinated, there will be a certain number of accidental deaths that occur shortly after vaccination, which cannot be associated with the vaccination.And if you say these vaccines have been developed in just one year, I will agree, but there was research going on other types of Coronaviruses from a long time.I forgot to say.In simpler words, bodies of some people can't have the vaccines as of now. +They have recommended who should take and who shouldn't.I'll be glad if I am proven wrong ! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621653/#p621653 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? You are close, but not very close.According to the data, The patients died of their underlying disease in a coincidental time with the vaccination. They were very seriously ill patients with many underlying diseases.If the elderly, or people with severe pre-existing conditions are vaccinated, there will be a certain number of accidental deaths that occur shortly after vaccination, which cannot be associated with the vaccination.And if you say these vaccines have been developed in just one year, I will agree, but there was research going on other types of Coronaviruses from a long time.I forgot to say.In simpler words, bodies of some people can't have the vaccines as of now. +They have recommended who should take and who shouldn't URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621653/#p621653 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? You are close, but not very close.According to the data, The patients died of their underlying disease in a coincidental time with the vaccination. They were very seriously ill patients with many underlying diseases.If the elderly, or people with severe pre-existing conditions are vaccinated, there will be a certain number of accidental deaths that occur shortly after vaccination, which cannot be associated with the vaccination.And if you say these vaccines have been developed in just one year, I will agree, but there was research going on other types of Coronaviruses from a long time. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621653/#p621653 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? But as far as I'm concerned there's a slight chance each vaccine you take can kill you. The older you are, the higher the risk. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621638/#p621638 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @11 I just posted what I said. I didn't say that I believe it or not, but yes, my sentence was kinda incorrect=, because I said that many people died because of Pfizer, not that I read that many people died because of Pfizer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621637/#p621637 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
2021-03-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Muhammad Hajjar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Btw, I liked 91's intentional throwing of an implicit message in the form of a joke to kick the butts of those conspiracy theory whiners For your information, the op has died after taking his shot yesterday.I mean, that's what he's told me some seconds ago. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621611/#p621611 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @97, Yeah, point taken. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621603/#p621603 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it bruh, why not take both! Just violently thrust one into each arm while roaring a mighty battle cry, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can explosively destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin! Wicked Sick!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never actually leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it man, why not take both! Just violently thrust one into each arm while roaring a mighty battle cry, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can explosively destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin! Wicked Sick!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never actually leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it man, why not take both! Just violently thrust one into each arm while roaring a mighty battle cry, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can explosively destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never actually leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it man, why not take both! Just jam one in each arm while roaring a battle cry, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can explosively destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin or ingested!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never actually leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it man, why not take both! Just jam one in each arm while roaring a battle cry, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can explosively destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin or ingested!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @1Fuck it man, just take both one in each arm, and see which one kicks the most COVID ass amiright? Worst case scenario, you end up with blood which can destroy all corona variants instantly on contact with skin or ingested!Note to idiots: Never do this.P.S. Ghost and Ethin pointlessly arguing with each other in circles for ever is what truly awaits us all in hell, (one constantly doubling down no matter how bad the argument, the other always insisting he's better than this but never leaving)."Neither ego can live while the other survives" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621597/#p621597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? 95, I really see no point in arguing with you, as you keep repeating the same points over and over. As I said about a thousand times before, I never claimed to be an expert in this field, and you can't ever proove I did, so drop that. And congrats to you for reducing a very prestigious degree from a more prestigious institution to a "fancy piece of paper". And no, all those skills can't be earned the same to the degree with self-education. That is why people with advanced degrees usually get paid more for the same job from people who don't have them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621590/#p621590 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @94, Nice way of criticizing me while simultaneously completely failing to recognize your own faults and failures. And yes, your "advanced degree" is completely meaningless in this discussion. The skills you may have attained during the degree can also be attained via self-education. I acknowledge that you took the (probably harder) route to attain those skills... And thereby earned a fancy peace of paper for it that says that you did... But that still doesn't make your advanced degree mean anything in the context of this discussion. So, just because you have an "advanced degree" in no way entitles you to act like an expert in biology -- which is what you've been doing in this entire topic from your first post. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621557/#p621557 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @94, Nice way of criticizing me while simultaneously completely failing to recognize your own faults and failures. And yes, your "advanced degree" is completely meaningless in this discussion. The skills you may have attained during the degree can also be attained via self-education. So, just because you have an "advanced degree" in no way entitles you to act like an expert in biology -- which is what you've been doing in this entire topic from your first post. And I find it quite hilarious how you point out that I'm hotheaded when your just as bad, if not worse. As I said in prior posts, you've discredited yourself badly enough in this topic alone that no one takes you seriously anymore. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621557/#p621557 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @94, Nice way of criticizing me while simultaneously completely failing to recognize your own faults and failures. And yes, your "advanced degree" is completely meaningless in this discussion. The skills you may have attained during the degree can also be attained via self-education. So, just because you have an "advanced degree" in no way entitles you to act like an expert in biology -- which is what you've been doing in this entire topic from your first post. And I find it quite hilarious how you point out that I'm hotheaded when your just as bad, if not worse. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621557/#p621557 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Star fire, Ethin is still hot headed, as can be evidenced by his posts. And no ethin, an advanced degree doesn't magically stop meaning anything if it isn't in biology, it just means you aren't an authority in that field. It doesn't also mean you lack other skills used to get that degree.91, rofl that is funny. Guess you should use another magnet to dislodge the magnet dust in your skin.Starfire, replied to pm URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621545/#p621545 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Star fire, Ethin is still hot headed, as can be evidenced by his posts. And no ethin, an advanced degree doesn't magically stop meaning anything if it isn't in biology, it just means you aren't an authority in that field. It doesn't also mean you lack other skills used to get that degree.91, rofl that is funny. Guess you should use another magnet to dislodge the magnet dust in your skin. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621545/#p621545 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @92Hell yeah. Also factor in that if I tell the world I'm joking, someone will think I'm being coerced by the nanites swarming through my blood stream. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621479/#p621479 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @91This is funny. Until you realize that a not-insignificant number of people on here are going to take you seriously. Then it's just depressing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621473/#p621473 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? So I had my first dose of the Oxford vaccine today, and now my arm - near the injection site - seems to respond to fridge magnets. Is this normal?Also, when I walk past our router, there's a high pitched beeping sound and the internet drops out entirely, or redirects all our connected devices to Chinese ad sites.Take your chances kids. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621469/#p621469 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @82 I am not really sure, I've read studies where they said that the antibodies disappear but it could be very possible too that your theory is right. However the result is the same at the end, by the time we vaccinate new people, the old vaccines will be outdated and we will not reach the required percentage for the herd immunity.On the other hand, remember that not everyone was taking the flue shots and effectively we did not need too, because the death rate of flue is very low, and the production wouldn't be enough even if everyone wanted to take it, but in the flue case that was never a problem while in the COVID case that will be a big one until the virus weakens, or we're magically able to produce a massive number of shots to cover a great percentage of the world. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621345/#p621345 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
2021-03-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Imho, we should all nope out of here, nothing's gonna come from this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621339/#p621339 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Well, okay, I understand it.This should do it, if not, then I am seriously out.@Ghost, sent you a PM, thank you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621333/#p621333 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @86, Oh, I'm not trying to fight with Ghost, just pointing out flaws that they refuse to acknowledge. If things heat back up in here, I'm outa here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621318/#p621318 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? So, I see that Ghost is now calm. Please be calm, Ethin. We're now getting hot... Please resolve it with peace.re: Translation, I get it now. Guess I was going very harsh on you.This topic is now moving to a war, now, so it's departure time for me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621311/#p621311 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @84, Uh... You should look in the mirror. I do know a little something about debate, actually. Considering that your the *only* person spewing your tripe, I'd shut up if I were you. Your tactics aren't gaining you *any* favor or making you look good at all. You were the one doing the armchair biology, and doing it first, not Camlorn, so kindly stop trying to deflect all the blame onto him just because he has a computer science degree. Your "advanced degree" is entirely meaningless if its not in biology.Actually... Why am I even telling you this? You clearly believe yourself better than Camlorn and I because of your "advanced degree" (which is ridiculously arrogant of you, but hey, that's your own problem). I'm just repeating myself. There's no point in talking to someone who chooses to have selective hearing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621290/#p621290 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @84, Uh... I'm not going to even bother replying. You should look in the mirror, though. I do know a little something about debate, actually. Considering that your the *only* person spewing your tripe, I'd shut up if I were you. Your tactics aren't gaining you *any* favor or making you look good at all. You were the one doing the armchair biology, not Camlorn, so kindly stop trying to deflect all the blame onto him. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621290/#p621290 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? OK Sorry Ethin, but pointing out the spelling mistake in the way is clearly an attack. Any idiot with a few neurons still alive in their brain can very clearly see that. And it is an ivasion tactic that shifts focus away from the actual argument. You are like a broken record spewing the same stuff over and over and over again. I never ever claimed to be an expert in biology, and clearly stated I was conveying my opinions. Thev whole thread was really civil until Camlorn did what he does best, and took up the inflamatory comments, decided a CS degree made him a biologist, which he then turned around and accused me of doing, and then was like we should suspend ethics and let people be infected with a yet unknown virus, and casually was like, yeah we'll kill off quite a few participants but yeah, totally ignored credible medical sources I sited that suggested an approach like this wasn't worth the risk and was pointless, personally attacked me over spelling, accused me of killing people, regardless of the fact that I didn't erge anyone to do the same, tried to play dumb and claim that MRNA vaccines were equally known and safe as other vaccines using different technology, and insighted personal attacks against me in this thread.78, I recommend you actually do a google search on what college is, and what an advanced degree entails, hint its not like high school, before attacking me personally. As for debate, do you know anything about debate? I think not. As for star fire, I didn't mean the translation as an insult at all. I was trying to point out that natively language can be used to convey meaning without having it explicitly stated in a sentence. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621271/#p621271 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Good point, 82.Well, I guess I was going harsh in my last post. My aim was not to bash Ghost, I was telling him about that spelling thing. I was tired last night, so I got annoyed on that translator thing , more the translator I use, it will hurt me, rather than helping.Oh by the way, this discussion should remain as discussion, not debate. In the present time, I would define debate as, people showing that they are superior from each other, and taking things on their ego. Please, can we return to our gentle, calm, discussion? Let's now not go on who started first and all that. Let's cut it out.Now coming back to justification of what 82 said.People getting reinfected is mostly cause of the new variants, that is what I read, or that is what the sources said.Well, for the proof.Recently, a research was conducted in Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, which indicates 2 things.First: The vaccines maybe less effective against these 3 variants from South Africa, UK, and Brazil.Second: The bodies need a hole lot more antibodies to develop immunity, as compared to before. Info about this research can be easily found by googling.The virus that causes COVID-19, uses a protein called spike to latch onto and get inside cells. People infected with SARS-CoV-2 generate the most protective antibodies against the spike protein.Consequently, spike became the prime target for COVID-19 drug and vaccine developers. The three vaccines authorized by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for emergency use in the U.S. — made by Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — all target spike. And potent anti-spike antibodies were selected for development into antibody-based drugs for COVID-19.Viruses are always mutating, but for nearly a year the mutations that arose in SARS-CoV-2 did not threaten this spike-based strategy. Then, this winter, fast-spreading variants were detected in the United Kingdom, South Africa, Brazil and elsewhere. Sparking concern, the new variants all carry multiple mutations in their spike genes, which could lessen the effectiveness of spike-targeted drugs and vaccines now being used to prevent or treat COVID-19.If the vaccines are not effective enough, this is what the vaccine makers will do. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621183/#p621183 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Good point, 82.Well, I guess I was going harsh in my last post. My aim was not to bash Ghost, I was telling him about that spelling thing. I was tired last night, so I got annoyed on that translator thing , more the translator I use, it will hurt me, rather than helping.Oh by the way, this discussion should remain as discussion, not debate. In the present time, I would define debate as, people showing that they are superior from each other, and taking things on their ego. Please, can we return to our gentle, calm, discussion? Let's now not go on who started first and all that. Let's cut it out.Now coming back to justification of what 82 said.People getting reinfected is mostly cause of the new variants, that is what I read, or that is what the sources said.Well, for the proof.Recently, a research was conducted in Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis, which indicates 2 things.First: The vaccines maybe less effective against these 3 variants from South Africa, UK, and Brazil.Second: The bodies need a hole lot more antibodies to develop immunity, as compared to before. Info about research can be easily found by googling.The virus that causes COVID-19, uses a protein called spike to latch onto and get inside cells. People infected with SARS-CoV-2 generate the most protective antibodies against the spike protein.Consequently, spike became the prime target for COVID-19 drug and vaccine developers. The three vaccines authorized by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) for emergency use in the U.S. — made by Pfizer/BioNTech, Moderna and Johnson & Johnson — all target spike. And potent anti-spike antibodies were selected for development into antibody-based drugs for COVID-19.Viruses are always mutating, but for nearly a year the mutations that arose in SARS-CoV-2 did not threaten this spike-based strategy. Then, this winter, fast-spreading variants were detected in the United Kingdom, South Africa, Brazil and elsewhere. Sparking concern, the new variants all carry multiple mutations in their spike genes, which could lessen the effectiveness of spike-targeted drugs and vaccines now being used to prevent or treat COVID-19.If the vaccines are not effective, this is what the vaccine makers will do. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621183/#p621183 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @79, are you sure that the antibodies leaving/people getting reinfected thing isn't because of the variants? If so, I theorize that this may just become one of those things you have to do periodically -- go in every six-eight months or so to get a Covid shot. We do it with the flue already so that wouldn't be too surprising. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621164/#p621164 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @79, are you sure that the antibodies leaving/people getting reinfected thing isn't because of the variants? If so, I theorize that this may just become one of those things you have to do periodically -- go in every six-eight months or so to get a Covidd shot. We do it with the flue already so that wouldn't be too surprising. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621164/#p621164 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Okay, stopping in here real quick to say one thing, and one thing only.This argument appears to be over. The kicking of Ghost stops now.There were some bad arguments, and there was some less-than-charitable stuff said, but this is getting painfully close to personal attack territory, or I will begin handing out warnings. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621150/#p621150 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several ofThese12 foot inflatable giant beach balls URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several ofThese12 foot inflatable giant beach balls URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several of These 12 foot inflatable giant beach balls URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several ofhttps://www.amazon.com/Behemoth-Inflata … N476]These12 foot inflatable giant beach balls URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several of these 12 foot giant inflatable beach balls.https://www.amazon.com/Behemoth-Inflata … N476]These URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several of https://www.amazon.com/Behemoth-Inflata … N476]These 12 foot inflatable giant beach balls URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost's over Inflated ego is enough to fill up several of these 12 foot giant inflatable beach balls.https://www.amazon.com/Behemoth-Inflata … B01AYKN476 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621145/#p621145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? I actually can see both sides of the debate, however as pointed out in post 77 Ghost has serious problems accepting to lose an argument, and alters his ideas many times then he never accepts to admit that he lost a particular point, and rather try to defend it to death. So that is not the best way of presenting anything. I've had similar experience with him in another topic.I do agree that in biology things often are kind of deceiving and there is always more and more new and surprising things that scientists discover about the human body every day. So if the question is simply which one to take, and both are available I wouldn't choose the totally new method just for the fear of the unknown. But if I have no other choice I would take Pfizer as we are in a pandemic, and any protection is better than 0 protection, even if it has a slight risk of long-term side effects.I think that's what Ghost was originally saying, but I have no idea how the topic evolved like that lol.IMO the problem now is bigger than the side effects because the tests that were conducted showed very clearly that it is very safe, at least short-term. nonetheless, the question here is whether the vaccine will really do what scientists intended it to do, (create the herd immunity).And sadly many factors are showing that it won't, because first of all the antibodies are disappearing within 6 months, I am lazy to dig up links now but if you google it you will find plenty. My friend who lives in US actually caught Covid twice, and needed hospital in both times in a period of 7 months. Yes this will protect the lucky people who will take it right now, but by the time we can produce vaccine for the other non-vaccinated this protection will be gone and thus again we won't have the required percentage of vaccinated people.Another important point to consider is the mutations, until now it is not clear if the vaccine will be effective on the new UK/South Africa mutation, which might very likely be present in other countries as well but just not yet discovered. In general, this is very clearly going to be like the flue shots, so it will need to be updated every year. I think our only hope right now that these currently available vaccines save the most vulnerable people, until the virus mutates to something weak and become like the flue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621140/#p621140 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? I actually can see both sides of the debate, however as pointed out in post 77 Ghost has serious problems accepting to lose an argument, and alters his ideas many times then he never accepts to admit that he lost a particular point, and rather try to defend it to death. So that is not the best way of presenting anything. I've had similar experience with him in another topic.I do agree that in biology things often are kind of deceiving and there is always more and more new and surprising things that scientists discover about the human body every day. So if the question is simply which one to take, and both are available I wouldn't choose the totally new method just for the fear of the unknown. But if I have no other choice I would take Pfizer as we are in a pandemic, and any protection is better than 0 protection, even if it has a slight risk of long-term side effects.I think that's what Ghost was originally saying, but I have no idea how the topic evolved like that lol.IMO the problem now is bigger than the side effects because the tests that were conducted showed very clearly that it is very safe, at least short-term. nonetheless, the question here is whether the vaccine will really do what scientists intended it to do, (create the herd immunity).And sadly many factors are showing that it won't, because first of all the antibodies are disappearing within 6 months, I am lazy to dig up links now but if you google it you will find plenty. My friend who lives in US actually caught Covid twice, and needed hospital in both times in a period of 7 months. Yes this will protect the lucky people who will take it right now, but by the time we can produce vaccine for the other non-vaccinated this protection will be gone and thus again we won't have the required percentage of vaccinated people.Another important point to consider is the mutations, until now it is not clear if the vaccine will be effective in the new UK/South Africa mutation, which might very likely be present in other countries as well but just not yet discovered. In general, this is very clearly going to be like the flue shots, so it will need to be updated every year. I think our only hope right now that these currently available vaccines save the most vulnerable people, until the virus mutates to something weak and become like the flue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621140/#p621140 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
2021-03-08
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? I love this advanced degree we keep hearing about. Unless it was in cockamamie bullshit, it's irrelevant here as it clearly did not teach you how to debate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621127/#p621127 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? I would think that pointing out that spelling the thing you're arguing against properly is important doesn't count as a personal attack in any context, but especially in a context where the person misspelling it is trying to portray themselves as an expert on the topic. Unless other people were pointing out mistakes in your text that I missed, I literally pointed out exactly one.Also, if we want to talk about personal attacks the first stone was thrown in 41, frankly, wherein apparently STEM majors are unethical or something? I mean I've only engaged with the content for the most part. I haven't done stuff like take what the other person has said and turn it into proposing that we lie to the participants of medical trials, or literally say that holy fuck this is an example of someone who shouldn't run the country? But whatever. I have a thick enough skin that I honestly don't care because you're a random person on the internet, but I'm not going to sit by while the person who threw the first stone claims I was attacking people as opposed to attacking their arguments. I'm not the one coming over here and being outraged for the sake of being outraged.Look, Ghost, if you want people to engage with you then learn to change your mind or at least to lose an argument gracefully. Taking what the person on the other side says and always finding the worst possible interpretation to make them look bad, changing the definition of terms and hoping no one notices, and attacking them doesn't get you anything at all. I hope that at some point you can work out what to do with what is clearly a large amount of undirected anger, but to the rest of this site you have now done more to discredit everything you said than I possibly could have. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621118/#p621118 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @75, Just gonna jump in here and say that yes, you were actually stretching it out. You've completely ruined any kind of image you've tried to cultivate here. Your arrogant, boastful, and melodramatic. If you can't see that, well... That's only your problem, and only makes you look even worse. Though Camlorn pointed out your spelling to you, it most certainly wasn't petty, and I'm not sure what logic you used to draw that conclusion. If your debating with someone and you don't even know how to spell the name to describe one of the things your debating about, it *actually does* have an effect on your argument. But that isn't the only error you made in this topic, and I'm not surprised Camlorn -- or anyone else, really -- has hardly posted about this since they don't want to debate with someone with your kind of attitude. You absolutely refuse to listen to anything Camlorn points out, and you straw-man anyone elses posts to try to distort what we say to fit your own narrative. You ignore or sidestep the points we try to raise. You accuse me -- and other computer science majors -- of something and then prove that your just a hypocrite. You deliberately and knowingly attack someone who doesn't speak English natively, though who actually speaks it quite well, and you say that they need a translator, which is incredibly demeaning. You come in here and derail this topic all so you can do your armchair biology. And you then expect anyone to take you seriously? And before you wine about how I supposedly attacked you, I most certainly didn't; I pointed out that you were being a know-it-all because you were, in fact, doing just that.So, in sum, There's no point in debating anything with you if your going to behave like that and show that you will do absolutely anything to win a debate, no matter how underhanded it is. You could've handled all of this a lot better, but you didn't. And that's all on you. And if you can't see that what you've done in this topic is pretty fucked up, then you really need to reevaluate yourself. There are rules to a debate, and you've pretty much broken all of them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621102/#p621102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @75, Just gonna jump in here and say that yes, you were actually stretching it out. You've completely ruined any kind of image you've tried to cultivate here. Your arrogant, boastful, and melodramatic. If you can't see that, well... That's only your problem, and only makes you look even worse. Though Camlorn pointed out your spelling to you, it most certainly wasn't petty, and I'm not sure what logic you used to draw that conclusion. If your debating with someone and you don't even know how to spell the name to describe one of the things your debating about, it *actually does* have an effect on your argument. But that isn't the only error you made in this topic, and I'm not surprised Camlorn -- or anyone else, really -- has hardly posted about this since they don't want to debate with someone with your kind of attitude. You absolutely refuse to listen to anything Camlorn points out, and you straw-man anyone elses posts to try to distort what we say to fit your own narrative. You ignore or sidestep the points we try to raise. You accuse me -- and other computer science majors -- of something and then act like a hypocrite. You come in here and derail this topic all so you can do your armchair biology. And you then expect anyone to take you seriously. There's no point in debating anything with you if your going to behave like that. You could've handled all of this a lot better, but you didn't. And that's all on you. And if you can't see that what you've done in this topic is pretty fucked up, then you really need to reevaluate yourself. There are rules to a debate, and you've pretty much broken all of them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621102/#p621102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @75, Just gonna jump in here and say that yes, you were actually stretching it out. You've completely ruined any kind of image you've tried to cultivate here. Your arrogant, boastful, and melodramatic. If you can't see that, well... That's only your problem, and only makes you look even worse. Though Camlorn pointed out your spelling to you, it most certainly wasn't petty, and I'm not sure what logic you used to draw that conclusion. If your debating with someone and you don't even know how to spell the name to describe one of the things your debating about, it *actually does* have an effect on your argument. But that isn't the only error you made in this topic, and I'm not surprised Camlorn -- or anyone else, really -- has hardly posted about this since they don't want to debate with someone with your kind of attitude. You absolutely refuse to listen to anything Camlorn points out, and you straw-man anyone elses posts to try to distort what we say to fit your own narrative. You ignore or sidestep the points we try to raise. You accuse me -- and other computer science majors -- of something and then act like a hypocrite. You come in here and derail this topic all so you can do your armchair biology. And you seriously then expect anyone to take you seriously. There's no point in debating anything with you if your going to behave like that. You could've handled all of this a lot better, but you didn't. And that's all on you. And if you can't see that what you've done in this topic is pretty fucked up, then you really need to reevaluate yourself. There are rules to a debate, and you've pretty much broken all of them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621102/#p621102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @75, Just gonna jump in here and say that yes, you were actually stretching it out. You've completely ruined any kind of image you've tried to cultivate here. Your arrogant, boastful, and melodramatic. If you can't see that, well... That's only your problem, and only makes you look even worse. Though Camlorn pointed out your spelling to you, it most certainly wasn't petty, and I'm not sure what logic you used to draw that conclusion. If your debating with someone and you don't even know how to spell the name to describe one of the things your debating about, it *actually does* have an effect on your argument. But that isn't the only error you made in this topic, and I'm not surprised Camlorn -- or anyone else, really -- has hardly posted about this since they don't want to debate with someone with your kind of attitude. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621102/#p621102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Well, I wasn't stretching it out, when someone tries to bash you through spelling instead of your points, and insultingly nittpicks mistakes out of your text, regardless of the fact this is a forum and not a thesis project, that is an attack, and you gotta shoot back at someone who shoots at you. That is how the world functions. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/621095/#p621095 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Oh give me a break. I don't need to use translators, I understand English enough, and can type/write it without making any typos. I am not showing off my skills and all that. Though I'll reconsider what I said in that post. I guess I'm being rude, I was doing a wrong thing at that time, and that was, partly studying and partly focusing here.re: Spelling: You could've just said okay, I'll spell it the proper way next time. You are the one who is stretching it further. I won't argue on that.Only advice is, let's just cut it out and have a calm discussion, without bashing each other. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620984/#p620984 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? 69, I recommend you use some translator app to better understand posts here. As for spelling, it is universally known as pettyness if you are arguing a point with someone, and instead of addressing your points, that person takes shots at your spelling to make them seem superior. Coding may be hard, that doesn't mean we get to worship people who master it. And mastering a field of knowledge, then producing an original work in that field is much harder.re. , sentienceJayde, sentience is independant from any damage we cause to this planet. Having family, or biting someone doesn't equal sentience., you are sentient because we can have this debate, sentience means you are capable of complex learning, understanding obscure concepts and complex learning beyond simple behavioral modifications. A sentient creature has more of an impact with other sentient creatures, and more potential. This is what I mean, with regards to experimentation, I'd rather run my experiments on unthinking non-sentient creatures than intelligent humans. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620952/#p620952 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @71, agreed. And I know, I was getting hot about this, but this is ridiculous. Like I said, I'm outa here. I have better things to do than to debate with Ghost when they're gonna be like this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620913/#p620913 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Okay, this is the moment where I wave my hands and ask that we dial it back. I'm not asking for you to stop talking, but maybe scale things down a little. I'm not even doing so with my admin face on, but I will if I have to. And no, this isn't targeted. Ethin, I think you're getting really hot about this in a way you sometimes do. Just cool it. I happen to agree with you, but you're not in the best position.Ghost, please stop using the worst of a situation to represent the entire situation.Re: sentience:Generally, sentience is self-awareness. A rat may not know what it's seeing if you show it a mirror, but it knows it has to eat, has to keep its family safe. It's trying to survive just like you and I. If you pick up a rat and shake it, it'll try to bite you. If you slice its leg open, it will squeal in pain and then probably lick its wound. A rat is aware of its surroundings to a great enough degree that your argument about sentience falls on its face.You mention the people I have pushed to make big decisions. What about the literally millions of insects I have forced to abandon wherever it was they'd landed (say, to get food) while I walk through long grass? Never mind the thousands I've killed over the years, for no other reason than that they land on me and annoy me. Now, this is slippery-slope territory, and I recognize it, but I want you to think really, really big picture here for a sec.Take humans out of the equation. There is no other species currently alive that is affecting the earth nearly as much as humans. If you just deleted all humans, and all sign of human presence, tomorrow, that'd obviously suck for human progress, but for the planet itself, it would be an enormous net improvement. Taken in that light, any efforts we make to try and prolong human life or spread ourselves out further are purely selfish, and are probably going to result in us destroying our home eventually. No other species destroys its home in quite this way.What was that you were saying about sentience? We are not even self-aware enough to realize what we're doing. That, or we're too monstrous to stop. Please don't talk about ethics anymore. You are wavering wildly from position to position, and clearly have only an armchair sociologist's understanding, which is not up to the task of defending yourself on multiple fronts like this.I'm done here, unless I have to moderate. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620911/#p620911 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @69, replied to your PM. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620910/#p620910 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @Ethin, sent you a PM.Gotta go off topic, no choice left...@Ghost, this is not good, others haven't said about you that you don't know this, you just know that and that's not enough, and you are saying to Camlorn and Ethin, you don't know this, you don't know that, then why are you doing that.It's just a discussion, and everyone is free to discuss.Coding is not a simple thing, you know? It takes a lot of time, effort, and money sometimes to learn.And hey. Camlorn just told you to correct the spelling of vaccine, what's wrong in that. And you're taunting him that he should do some other productive work? Look in the Developers Room, he has done enough productive work. He might have done it just for your good, so that others don't tell you that you've got poor spelling skills.I was just looking at Reddit one day, and people are like, disability is the reason that your spellings are wrong. It was Cosmic Rage page I was looking at. And the Original Poster was, Lara Stardust.By the way, if we will not read your post slowly, how will we understand what's there in that wall of text. If we just scroll through it, people are like, hey you don't read full post, so you shouldn't be discussing X Y Z topic, and that will contribute to drama topics.Edit: standing by with post 66 and 68. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620909/#p620909 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @Ethin, sent you a PM.Gotta go off topic, no choice left...@Ghost, this is not good, others haven't said about you that you don't know this, you just know that and that's not enough, and you are saying to Camlorn and Ethin, you don't know this, you don't know that, then why are you doing that.It's just a discussion, and everyone is free to discuss.Coding is not a simple thing, you know? It takes a lot of time, effort, and money sometimes to learn.And hey. Camlorn just told you to correct the spelling of vaccine, what's wrong in that. And you're taunting him that he should do some other productive work? Look in the Developers Room, he has done enough productive work. He might have done it just for your good, so that others don't tell you that you've got poor spelling skills.I was just looking at Reddit one day, and people are like, disability is the reason that your spellings are wrong. It was Cosmic Rage page I was looking at. And the Original Poster was, Lara Stardust.By the way, if we will not read your post slowly, how will we understand what's there in that wall of text. If we just scroll through it, people are like, hey you don't read full post, so you shouldn't be discussing X Y Z topic, and that will contribute to drama topics. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620909/#p620909 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @67, it... Doesn't actually prove your point at all. Your the one who decided to come in here and do your armchair biology, not me. Your the one who got the flack for it. Your the one acting like you know everything about biology, not Camlorn or I.As for your insult about creativity and effort? Such a boastful statement! Quite sad, really, since you tried to make me (and every other CS major on here) look boastful and arrogant, and then you ruined it by doing the exact same thing you accused us of! Whoops! Anyway, I'm outa here. I got better things to do than to debate vaccines with someone who's arrogant, boastful, and an armchair biologist to boot. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620907/#p620907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @67, it... Doesn't actually prove your point at all. Your the one who decided to come in here and do your armchair biology, not me. Your the one who got the flack for it. Your the one acting like you know everything about biology, not Camlorn or I.As for your insult about creativity and effort? Such a boastful statement! Quite sad, really, since you tried to make me (and every other CS major on here) look boastful and arrogant, and then you ruined it by doing the exact same thing you accused me of! Whoops! (Also, your statement is highly subjective about creativity is quite subjective, and your boast only make you look worse... I'd just get outa here if I were you if you don't wanna look any worse than you already are.)But... What were we talking about? It wasn't abotu code... It was about the vaccine and your armchair biology! That's right! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620907/#p620907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? you just proove my point. You have such an insane inflated sense of self worth. That code example just prooves that, and the fact that you withhout knowing anything about any of my works, presume to see yourself above me. Any objective person reading this would see it too. But for your information, I have an advanced degree, and any page of my thesis would equal several thousand of your lines of code in its worth, creativity, and actual work to be able to write the page. Don't know why, but this seems to be a trend with computer science people. Alot of them I've I've encountered, have this incredible know it all attitude and ego. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620906/#p620906 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? you just proove my point. You have such an insane inflated sense of self worth. That code example just prooves that, and the fact that you withhout knowing anything about any of my works, presume to see yourself above me. Any objective person reading this would see it too. But for your information, I have an advanced degree, and any page of my thesis would equal several thousand of your lines of code in its worth, creativity, and actual work to be able to write the page. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620906/#p620906 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @65, Um... I don't even know what to say. That... That was the worst comeback I've ever seen in my entire life. Just... Just wow, dude. Just wow. Your acting like a know-it-all -- and lets not kid ourselves, because you are, not me or Camlorn or Jayde -- and your straw-manning everything that we tell you to try to distort it to fit your narrative and you seriously expect someone to believe you? Just wow.And as for "writing a few lines of code"? By that do you mean 8,120 LoC, give or take a few thousand that I haven't bothered to count? If that's only a few, I wonder what a lot is. Of course if your talking about both of us (Camlorn and I), then I think I can safely say that the amount of code we've written exceeds the largest work of authorship you've ever written -- and that's in terms of the amount of characters! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620905/#p620905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @65, Um... I don't even know what to say. That... That was the worst comeback I've ever seen in my entire life. Just... Just wow, dude. Just wow. Your acting like a know-it-all -- and lets not kid ourselves, because you are, not me or Camlorn or Jayde -- and your straw-manning everything that we tell you to try to distort it to fit your narrative and you seriously expect someone to believe you? Just wow.And as for "writing a few lines of code"? By that do you mean 8,120 LoC, give or take a few thousand that I haven't bothered to count? If that's only a few, I wonder what a lot is. Of course if your talking about both of us, then I think I can safely say that the amount of code we've written exceeds the largest work of authorship you've ever written -- and that's in terms of the amount of characters! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620905/#p620905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @65, Um... I don't even know what to say. That... That was the worst comeback I've ever seen in my entire life. Just... Just wow, dude. Just wow. Your acting like a know-it-all -- and lets not kid ourselves, because you are, not me or Camlorn or Jayde -- and your straw-manning everything that we tell you to try to distort it to fit your narrative and you seriously expect someone to believe you? Just wow.And as for "writing a few lines of code"? By that do you mean 8,120 LoC, give or take a few thousand that I haven't bothered to count? If that's only a few, I wonder what a lot is. Of cours,e if your talking about both of us, then I think I can safely say that the amount of code we've written exceeds the largest work of authorship you've ever written -- and that's in terms of the amount of characters! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620905/#p620905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @65, Um... I don't even know what to say. That... That was the worst comeback I've ever seen in my entire life. Just... Just wow, dude. Just wow. Your acting like a know-it-all -- and lets not kid ourselves, because you are, not me or Camlorn or Jayde -- and your straw-manning everything that we tell you to try to distort it to fit your narrative and you seriously expect someone to believe you? Just wow.And as for "writing a few lines of code"? By that do you mean well over 8,120 LoC... Well, if that's a little amount of code for you, I wonder what a lot is? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620905/#p620905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @65, Um... I don't even know what to say. That... That was the worst comeback I've ever seen in my entire life. Just... Just wow, dude. Just wow. Your acting like a know-it-all -- and lets not kid ourselves, because you are, not me or Camlorn or Jayde -- and your straw-manning everything that we tell you to try to distort it to fit your narrative and you seriously expect someone to believe you? Just wow. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620905/#p620905 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? 63, enjoy thinking you're the king of the world because you know some code. Except remember thatv doesn't make you all knowing and give you the ability to look down on others. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620904/#p620904 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? 61,You are correct of us raping and destroying the earth, but in a fundemental way humans have more potential. Think about it for a second from your own life. How many people did you interact with so far in your life? Thousands? Did you consdier you pushed at least some of them to make big decisions that altered their life? This all comes down to humans are sentient and rats aren't. Rats may have complex families and social structures, but without sentience, they by default have less potential. That doesn't mean its ok to kill them, but they are less of a loss than someone's family member or parent for example.As for child risks, I would say participating ina covid trial would be like a mom doing drugs while pregnant, totally irresponsible and life altering for the child.As for medical research again, this whole thing was 100% preventable if we had understood viruses more, and had more funding to develop virus killer drugs. Maybe later on when this is over we will. When a next pandemic happened, that would mean, hey here is the antiviral broad spectrum, take it to slow/stop infection until we make a slight modification to it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620903/#p620903 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @62, I... I seriously want to know what your smoking, man. Camlorn and petty do not go in the same sentence. Sorry, man, but its you who's being petty because you keep invalidating your own point by bringing up things that you've already been majorly criticized for. That doesn't help you in the slightest.Alas, I'm done debating this topic with you, Ghost. Have fun acting like a know-it-all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620901/#p620901 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @62, I... I seriously want to know what your smoking, man. Camlorn and petty do not go in the same sentence. Sorry, man, but its you who's being petty because you keep invalidating your own point by bringing up things that you've already been majorly criticized for. That doesn't help you in the slightest. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620901/#p620901 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ok,Some additional points. The only reason China was more successful is because of their totalitarian government and their citizens are dogmatically used to obeying the government. So when they locked down, they had no more of that yeaah my freedom thing we had here. That helped them get it quickly under control, control transmition and spread/ The numbers are likely fabricated too, given their past history of lack of transparency.Camlorn,You obviously think you're the expert, as you've decided to make up your own mind about challenge trials and ignore what the experts say when it doesn't suit you or conflicts with your opinions.And spelling? The very fact you attack my spelling rather than my arguments, and sidestep points just show me how petty you are. Do something else more productive with your time rather than vraille reading through my posts and nitpicking spelling mistakes out of them. Doing this doesn't show intelligence, only pettyness.You say the west destroyed the economy? Well, see what red republican states did, basicly said fuck the pandemic and continued on as usual, and they had many times the hospitalisation rates and death rates of other areas that instituted mask policies and social distancing.As for that fire analogy, you aren't pissing on the fire, you're pouring gasoline on the fire and fanning the flames to make it grow bigger killing everyone in the house instead of limiting the fire to that house and containing it. As for people signing a waiver and getting the vaccine? How many people do you think would be crazy enough to do that? Very few would. Even now the issue with the vaccine is production, there is less vaccine in circulation than actual people able to get it.Now on to challenge trials again. Do you really think its someone's personal choice to risk their life for example if they are a caregivver or have children later, and pass virus DNA damage onto them? You say giving the virus directly and maybe having someone get infected naturally are the same?Well they sure as fuck aren't. Its like the possibility of someone being shot in a combat warzone randomly, and testing a new wound healing treatment on them afterward, vs we can't wait for that, heres $1k, lets shoot you in the stomach so we can try this thing we never tried on anyone else. Anyone with a basic level of ethics training will tell you the second scenario is fucked up, because you pull that trigger and cause direct harm, whereas the first scenario its incidental, and the person was harmed initially anyway. And unluck those who don't have any ethics pledges to go by, or have some they can ignore whenever they feel like it, for alot of doctors, do no harm actually means something, to them, and the hippocratic oath is the oldest oath in medicine still practiced today. It doesn't go like pandemic equals ethics mode off, anything goes.And onto the doctors that condemn what the UK is doingfirst, the one you sidestepped, because it challenged your worldviewhttps://www.forbes.com/sites/williamhas … what-cost/https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/23/cha … 9-vaccine/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620899/#p620899 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Ghost, I see what you're driving at, with at least a few of your points. I don't agree, but I'm not here to demonize you.A few rebuttals though.You say that humans have more potential than rats.I guess this is subjective. If you mean that humans have more potential to advance human interests, then sure. But if you mean that humans are doing more for the world at large, think again. The earth would be far, far better off without us here. Stop and really think about that for a second.Also, you're dealing with leaky ethics again. Rats have families, personalities and complex social structures. Why is it okay to snuff them out - to raise them from birth fully with the intention of killing them - but it's not okay to even speed up medical trials in a pandemic? I think you've got a bit to think about. Do me a favour though; please don't answer me this question, but rather answer it for yourself.You say that we have to pay people to do clinical trials.Why? Where is it written in any hard science that financial compensation must be provided for a potentially life-altering risk? I am not saying we flat-out -can't pay people, but that's coercion, and gets into more shaky ethics.In addition, the fact that submitting yourself to a Covid-19 trial might affect your offspring? Welcome to 2021, stay awhile. Most big choices you make will have an impact on that, including the choice to have children in the first place. The trick here would be to make absolutely certain that we have told participants as much as we possibly can about the risks, side effects and complications. Truth is, you never know 100% of what you think you do, so you're always taking risks to some degree. That's life. But we would need to remove all reasonable doubt if we wanted to do these challenge trials. No one's going to force anyone to engage in them if they don't want to - that's just nasty - but for those who want to? I say let them try, provided all those safeguards I mentioned are in place.You say we should have done better with medical research and the allocation of funds.Yup, agreed. But we didn't. Wish in one hand, spit in the other; see which one fills up first. It would have been lovely if we hadn't been idiots about this. We were, and now we're reaping the whirlwind. Hopefully this puts our future medical decisions into some sort of perspective. Our whole pharmaceutical industry - worldwide, even - is pretty bloated and broken, and it needs serious overhaul. In fact, a ton of things need serious overhaul. But that's not a good argument as to why we shouldn't use the tools we have at our disposal right now to help people be safer. There is no scenario that has us risking zero human lives to perform accurate human trials; that just can't happen under these circumstances. I suggest your make your peace with that reality.So, short answer.Q: If I don't have any related complications, which vaccine should I take, Fizer or Oxford?A: Yes. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620898/#p620898 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @58, I'm happy to be a lab rat, thank you very much, if it means I'll be helping save huge numbers of people. And as Camlorn said, stop straw-manning our posts. It doesn't help your supposed point, if there ever was one to begin with. None of us are saying we should just force people into taking the vaccine at gunpoint or something. And yes, people can still give consent. The consent would be, "Will you take this vaccine, knowing that you might die as a result?" That's literally what we're doing.Also also... You'll be unhappy to know that your "ethical views" are not actually as clear-cut as you think. A quick Google search reveals that not only is the UK doing it (and succeeding) but there are many articles that I've found that state that its the right thing to do with COVID-19. Like I said, we can't wait 10 years. With COVID-19, no amount of precautionary measures would allow us to wait 10 years. People take this vaccine knowing that we don't know the long-term effects and that the normal medical procedures haven't been followed because we (didn't) have a choice and had to do away with normal procedures. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620892/#p620892 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @58, I'm happy to be a lab rat, thank you very much, if it means I'll be helping save huge numbers of people. And as Camlorn said, stop straw-manning our posts. It doesn't help your supposed point, if there ever was one to begin with. None of us are saying we should just force people into taking the vaccine at gunpoint or something. And yes, people can still give consent. The consent would be, "Will you take this vaccine, knowing that you might die as a result?" That's literally what we're doing.Also also... You'll be unhappy to know that your "ethical views" are not actually as clear-cut as you think. A quick Google search reveals that not only is the UK doing it (and succeeding) but there are many articles that I've found that state that its the right thing to do with COVID-19. Like I said, we can't wait 10 years. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620892/#p620892 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @58, I'm happy to be a lab rat, thank you very much, if it means I'll be helping save huge numbers of people. And as Camlorn said, stop stra-manning our posts. It doesn't help your supposed point, if there ever was one to begin with. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620892/#p620892 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @54, 55 and 56, very well said. I've been saying that repeatedly in the like the last 20 posts but Ghost just wants to keep spreading his FUD even though he isn't qualified to do so. Not to mention he happily distorts the reality of the situation.Like I said before, Ghost, if these were normal times and not an emergency, I'd definitely be all for "Let the medical testing procedures take their course". But as I said before... This. Is. A. Pandemic. And when your in a pandemic, you have to dispense with the normal procedures because they simply aren't going to help you. Even if Trump hadn't disbanded the pandemic response office, even the office would've done the same thing -- they would've never utilized the existing medical testing infrastructure because 8-10 years is far, far too long for something like Covid-19. This is a pandemic. We need to get as many people vaccinated as fast as possible and as safely as possible without resulting in a ridiculous amount of new cases, no questions asked. We can't wait three years. We can't wait five and we certainly can't wait ten. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620891/#p620891 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Jayde,Several things here. Some of the articles I have sent, you will see that many medical professionals say that challenge trials wouldn't accomplish anything, and would be unethical because all the complications and longterm effects of covid aren't well known. This is unethical for several reasons, as I said you can't be informed and understand the risks if said risks aren't known. Second, you have to offer some sort of compensation. Once you do this, you open a whole new can of worms, as people who lost their jobs, or need money will enroll and disregard the fine print. Third, viruses are known to modify DNA. What precaution would you take to make sure this person's experementation results wern't passed on to their child if they decided to have children? The only way is forced sterilisation of anyone participating, but this generates more issues. What about if the person becomes perminently disabled and requires lifelong care? Who is going to cover that or carry it out? Is it ethical to ssubject the family to providing care for something that wasn't necesary? Do you see where I am going with this? As for rats, I didn't say it was acceptable to experiment on them, but it is clearly the lesser of two evils. The ethics regulations insure they don't suffer unnecesarily. But this is very much preferable to human experimentation. A rat has less potential than a human, so a death of a rat is less significant than the death of a human.As for MRNA vaccenes, you summed up what I was trying to say. I was saying that to the poster, who admits they have their pick of both vaccenes, the oxford and fizer, that if I were in their shoes, I would take the Oxford one, I said the MRNA vaccene was newer, and the possibility was there that any longterm implications are unknown. Some people on this thread try to paint a black and white picture and to villify me as anti-vaccene, which is completely false.Ethin, enjoy being a scientist's lab rat then. I personally wouldn't participate in any clinical trial for a condition I don't have, because the unknown risks don't justify the gains in my book.Jayde, I think there are better ways than shortcutting the medical approval process.First, we could have a serious infectious disease and pandemic preparation budget, instead of spending a trillion on a jet that won't even fly, we could develop newer antibiotics that don't have the side effects of the current ones, and are more targeted, antiviral drugs that actually kill off viruses, instead of only stopping them from dividing, and that lack the serious downsides of the current ones, and vaccenes for broad classes of viruses, so when a pandemic hits, you don't have to rush a vaccene or drug, and you have something ready that works effectively for treatment or prevention. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620890/#p620890 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @52Yeah, I guess I'm double posting. You're using a study which was predicated around lying to the participants at the counterexample to what I'm saying. I have not once in this thread said "let's lie to the participants" or "let's not treat the participants" or anything like that at all.Seriously, stop straw manning my posts. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620888/#p620888 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? The difference between me and you is that I know I'm not qualified, and so when there's more than a 99% consensus of experts who are qualified, I listen to the experts rather than going off and forming my own theories on the topic, working myself up over it, then informing everyone about them as if it's truth. I also apparently have a much better understanding of probability, because "a thousand people died" has to be taken in context and, if you consider this to be unsafe, you'd better never walk out your front door again.The UK is doing challenge trials, it's just way too late to matter and they needed to be doing this 4 months ago if not sooner. But with respect to "it would be horrifying if you were running things", well, go be horrified at the UK government, who apparently thinks what I'm proposing here is reasonable enough that they're doing it: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-56097088We just gave a whole bunch of people a placebo and then said "in order to prove this vaccine works we'll have to wait until some of you get covid". This is a challenge trial dressed up nice and taking way longer. Cut the participants by a tenth or a hundredth and give them Covid and the same number of people get Covid total, same number of deaths etc. but with a shorter timeline. You always have to make a trade-off of how many people you're willing to let die for the sake of finding the treatment. The current medical establishment decided that the trade-off here was high double digit thousands of people, for the sake of not actively causing the deaths. But at the end of the day a death is a death, and it would have been better if we had let a comparatively very small number of consenting, informed, uncoerced volunteers take the risk. Could have done it with people in amazing health in their 20s and still known at least half of what we needed to know from it with basically no risks at all to the participants, being as by a few months in we did have the knowledge to know who was and wasn't going to die from it. You can hate challenge trials all you want, and in normal times we maybe shouldn't depending on exactly what it's for, but this is an emergency and at the end of the day giving people a placebo vaccine and then sending them back out into the world to see if they get covid is exactly the same, just with the ability for us all to pat ourselves on the back about it. We didn't have a choice about needing to do the research, but we did have a choice between "this feels good and lets us pretend we didn't cause a problem but is slow" and "this doesn't feel good but is fast", where either side of that choice is the same net harm from the perspective of the participants but very much not from the perspective of all the people we could have saved.As for volunteers needing to be experts to know the risks, "This is a challenge trial. Here is what we think will happen. Worst case is you die horribly" from Dr expert PHD whatever seems pretty clear-cut. We've taken this whole "protect people from themselves" thing to a ridiculous degree. You don't have to be the expert to understand the risk of any clinical trial at all because a big part of the clinical trial is they tell you what those are. SO not really sure how having biology expertise comes into whether or not a volunteer should be allowed to volunteer for a thing? I mean, there has to be a reasonable belief that you're not going to die from it, etc. Doctors shouldn't just be murdering people, you should always consider the ethics. But this kind of thing shouldn't be a hard no in the first place, but especially not if the main argument you have against it is that we should be protecting people from themselves, because that's just treating the world like everyone is an idiot.As for China and Russia I'm not happy about everything they did, but everyone in the US, UK, etc. has entirely failed to get into emergency pandemic people are dying mode and instead made the trade-off of destroying the economy and entirely taking the ethical high ground at the cost of everything else. We aren't really more defensible than them. For example, we could have done things like said "it's an emergency. You can get the vaccine before Phase III but you have to pay for it yourself and sign this you might die waiver" but we didn't. It's not more ethically defensible to be the guy who stands back and does nothing. They took a stance that I don't like and which is very much at odds with western values that I do support, but it's a pandemic. There's a place and time for ethical high grounds. Majorly bad emergency situation is not that time. Being as this is apparently devolving into you straw-man everything I say, I'm not saying we should throw out our ethics for it or anything like that. But we should have recognized the complexity and treated it like a complex situa
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Okay, let's start from the start. I haven't checked this topic after 7 posts before, but now I did.I will agree with all what Camlorn, Ethin and Jayde said.@Nuno, What if any other vaccine is better than the Chinese vaccine?Do you have any proof that any other vaccine other than Chinese vaccine will lead to death? Body of some people can't take the vaccines, as simple as that. There are recommendations for those who should take these and for those who should not. Don't scare!We have to keep in mind, that these vaccines have been developed in just one year. Though I may agree, scientists may have been pressured to develop these quickly, but I will also agree, this is the only alternative to stay safe from COVID19. However, in a research, they say that the vaccines *maybe* less effective against the new emerging varients from UK, South Africa and Brazil. Don't quote me on that.It's important to be aware, people.Some basic questions and answers regarding MRNA should aware people, a bit.People make mRNA all the time. In our cells, DNA in the nucleus is used to make mRNA, which is sent to the cytoplasm where it serves as a blueprint to make proteins. Most of the time, the proteins that are produced are needed to help our bodies function.mRNA vaccines take advantage of this process by introducing the mRNA for an important protein from the virus that the vaccine is trying to protect against. In the case of COVID-19, the important protein is the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2 virus. The mRNA that codes for the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein is taken up by cells called dendritic cells, which express the spike protein on the cell surface, travel to a local lymph node, and stimulate other cells of the immune system (B cells) to make antibodies. These antibodies protect us, so that if we are exposed to SARS-CoV-2 in the future, our immune system is ready.As I said above, we should keep in mind, who should and should not get the vaccines.a few groups of people should not get the vaccine, and some others should consult with their doctor or follow special procedures.• Anyone with a previous severe or immediate allergic reaction (i.e., one that causes anaphylaxis or requires medical intervention) to a COVID-19 mRNA vaccine dose, a vaccine component, or polysorbate• Those younger than 16 years of age• People currently isolating or experiencing symptoms of COVID-19; these people can get vaccinated once they are finished isolation and their primary symptoms have resolved.Since mRNA is active only in a cell's cytoplasm and DNA is located in the nucleus, mRNA vaccines do not operate in the same cellular compartment that DNA is located.Further, mRNA is quite unstable and remains in the cell cytoplasm for only a limited time. So, they can't change the DNA.What stops the body from continuing to produce the COVID-19 spike protein after getting a COVID-19 mRNA or adenovirus- based vaccine?Both vaccines result in production of spike protein that results from mRNA blueprints. Because our cells are continuously producing proteins, they need a way to ensure that too many proteins do not accumulate in the cell. So, generally speaking, mRNA is always broken down fairly quickly. Even if for some reason our cells did not breakdown the vaccine mRNA, the mRNA stops making the protein within about a week, regardless of the body's immune response to the protein.Likewise, while the adenovirus-based vaccine delivers DNA and the DNA lasts longer than mRNA, studies have shown that adenovirus-based DNA does not last longer than a few weeks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620884/#p620884 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Trump absolutely does bear responsibility for hamstringing the processes that Obama put in place for pandemic action. No doubt.Also, those horrible trials you're bringing up are not a good look. You're quite correct to represent them as monstrous, because they were, but that's not what we're talking about here. It sounds like you're saying that the worst example of a given thing should stand as a reason not to have faith in it. By this logic, everyone and everything, everywhere, which has ever made a choice or failed a test that cost one or more lives should never be used again, and that's just not viable, I'm afraid. If people were suggesting testing Covid on inmates whether they liked it or not, you'd better believe I'd be against it, as would just about everyone else. But I'm...pretty confident that's not what we're talking about here. I ask you, point-blank: if you believe that individuals should have the right to make their own choices, then what would be wrong with an individual voluntarily choosing to risk their life for science, especially if it might help millions of others? Obviously we shouldn't be trying to shove people into this choice, no pressure should be applied to individuals who haven't yet signalled their intent. I'm dead set on that. We shouldn't be bribing people or threatening them or whatnot. But if someone says, "You know what? I would gladly risk my life if it means maybe saving someone else", why should we stop them?Re: your argument about organic programming.So okay. Lots of drugs and proteins and cells act in ways we don't understand. That doesn't mean there's no code running; it just means we haven't yet parsed the structure of that code, not all of it. It means that there might indeed be variables which will interact with the code we generate, but we can be reasonably sure that those variable interactions are either so rare as to be statistically insignificant, or are predictable and specifically planned for. So your point doesn't actually refute mine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620882/#p620882 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @49, By the 4 percent I explicitly was talking about the general rate of complications. And yes, I've tried to say what 50 has said -- your being far too melodramatic about challenge trials. And, as I've said before, you just go on with your life and let millions die in the name of vaccine perfection. I, on the other hand, will be happy to contribute to vaccine research (as the other 43 million people have done) without risking the lives of over a hundred million people so that we can perfect the vaccine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620873/#p620873 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @49, By the 4 percent I explicitly was talking about the general rate of complications. And yes, I've tried to say what 50 has said -- your being far too melodramatic about challenge trials. And, as I've said before, you just go on with your life and let millions die in the name of vaccine perfection. I, on the other hand, will be happy to contribute to vaccine research (as the other 43 million people have done) without risking the lives of over a hundred million people so that we can perfect the virus. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620873/#p620873 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Here's why I see both sides.Challenge trials have done some monstrous things, but the idea of experimenting on live, willing subjects - subjects who are not being pressured in any way whatsoever to participate - could yield huge dividends. This is an extremely important qualifier; I don't know if it is possible to get someone to go for this without some sort of inducement, and the moment you do this, you're taking the objectivity out of it. There's also the flip side. Most people who think challenge trials are monstrous also think it's totally 100% okay to test things like vaccinations on mice and rats, who not only cannot give consent but who have been specifically raised in captivity, with no hope of escape, to advance the human cause. There's some really leaky ethics there.I think I actually see what Ghost is saying re: MRNA stuff, at least to some extent. Obviously, a Covid-19 vaccine is not an AIDS virus, and doesn't carry the same payload of malicious biological code, for want of a better term. But if the implications of the existing code are not fully understood, then there is potential there for problems. Note that I am not ending with a "therefore, don't use" or "therefore, don't trust" hard stop. I'm simply saying that it is maybe not quite so cut and dried as it's being represented.Clearly, oversight is needed for any important medical trials, full stop. But how uch is too much, and how little is too little? I think right now we're on the high side, and that sometimes there is good reason to shortcut the process partially.It's also important to point out that even though China has a bad history with human rights, and may have plenty to answer for, it never seemed to experience the same level of outbreak as other, supposedly more enlightened countries. Let that sink in for a minute. I'm not advocating that we just do away with all the human-rights stuff - are you kidding? I'm a social worker! - but clearly it wasn't just a disaster, so even if they fell into it ass backward, they must have done something right.I think it's important to weigh all the factors appropriately. Yes, the unexplained deaths are bad; no, they are not statistically significant, since as Canlorn pointed out, nobody has a problem with cars, yet cars continue to be made and used every day even though they sometimes have a nasty habit of getting people killed. It's all in the perspective.I'll analogize, shall I? Let's say I'm in a large room, where small clouds of invisible particles are floating free in the atmosphere. If I inhale any of these clouds, I can get sick; maybe I'll die, maybe I'll fully recover, or maybe I'll have complications for the rest of my life. Now, someone comes in and puts a gigantic bottle of pills in the room with me and says, "These pills are protection against the clouds of particles. If you take one of these, there's a tiny, tiny chance you will die or suffer serious complications, but since you have to live the rest of your life in this room, and since the clouds aren't going to dissipate on their own, you have to weigh the choice yourself." Me, I would take the pill and roll the dice, because the odds of death are so, so low.Now, if the room was completely empty except for the pills? Then no, I'm obviously not going to take one; why risk death for no reason?And our world right now is that cloud-filled room. And the bottle of pills is filling up as we speak. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620870/#p620870 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? And a timeline of the tuskagee studyhttps://www.cdc.gov/tuskegee/timeline.htm URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620871/#p620871 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
2021-03-07
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Oh for christ sake, no one is saying give untested drugs to disadvantaged minorities. Stop being so melodramatic. There's no reason not to do challenge trials. Some people are willing to actually do what's necessary to end this, even at the cost of their own lives, there's no reason to not let them contribute. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620867/#p620867 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? 47, I very much doubt any vaccene had a 4% death rate. That is massively high, and any vaccene with such a high death rate would be withdrawn. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620866/#p620866 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? Maybe the president shouldn't have disbanded the pandemic office rather than giving his billionaire friends massive tax cuts? You know, if that office hadn't been shut down by trump, they would have had a plan to manage pandemics like these. And yes, a vaccene developed should be perfectly safe, to make sure the cure isn't worse than the disease, and to make sure you don't fuck up someone's life in the name of a possibility of helping others. And remember the rigorous testing process was what allowed us to eliminate nonfunctional treatments like hydroxycloroquine.Jayde, I would say biology is very different than programing, as you don't know many variables that may effect the cure you develope, the cure can have many interactions that you may not know could occur, or that occur by a mechanism you don't know about. The cure can have delayed effects, though rare, again, see quinolone antibiotics as an example of how this happened, still the process by which those antibiotics cause perminent disability isn't understood. Another difference between biology and programming, you can't just say aah fuck ethics, let me test all combinations of my drug on poor black africans who can't refuse some money, and killing them is an acceptable sacrifice. You hold peoples lives literally in your hand, which is why majoring in medicine or biology requires ethics classes, unlike programming. A doctor or biologist without ethics to keep a check on what they're doing could do monsterous things in the name of the greater good, like the experiment where mentally impaired students at a boarding school were fed radioactive cerial.https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB883585397204864500 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620865/#p620865 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @46, yes... And in that context, MRNA is just a notification followed by an algorithm. It can't modify DNA at all or anything like that. And as I said in one of my posts above, the likelihood of death with the vaccine right now is so low as to be nearly absolute zero. I believe the typical average is four percent or so for normal vaccines. That's pretty damn good, I'd say. Which is why I'm railing against Ghost's FUD.But yeah, I get what your aiming at. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620863/#p620863 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @46, yes... And in that context, MRNA is just a notification followed by an algorithm. It can't modify DNA at all or anything like that. And as I said in one of my posts above, the likelihood of death with the vaccine right now is so low as to be nearly absolute zero. I believe the typical average is four percent or so for normal vaccines. That's pretty damn good, I'd say. Which is why I'm railing against Ghost's FUD. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620863/#p620863 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? A quick aside here:I can see both sides of this debate...but isn't biology just a form of organic programming? Think about it? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620859/#p620859 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @44, I swallow it because, unlike you, I want to save as many lives as I can. If my countries medical testing procedure isn't equipped to handle a world-wide pandemic, then its badly designed and needs to be overhauled. But I guess your quite happy to sacrifice hundreds of millions in the name of "Lets make sure this is perfectly safe". URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620858/#p620858 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? oh, now oyu start bashing me too? You are really eager to point out I don't have a biology major, yet camlorn doesn't have one iether, and is spouting bullcrap about challenge trials, but you swallow that eagerly too. Look at what the experts withthe biology and medical degrees say about challenge trials, and you will see the majority condemn them and say they aren't necesary, and expose people to unnecesary risk. See the very foundation of an ethical trial is the participant to understand the risks. Covid is an unknown, both on the longterm, as well as what effects it might have, or the perminent ones. Therefore a participant really can't give informed consent because they can't truly understand the risks or what might result. The trials that were done didn't have as much of this problem. They gave the vaccenes to the participants, and then observed how many got covid compared to others. That is very different than injecting someone with covid.And vaccene regulations? Hmm lets see, lets do away with regulation entirely, and have companies cook up random recepies and give them out to people in 24 hours with no data that they work. Understand the current process is rigorous and ensures a relatively safer product comes out of the pipeline, when it is actually followed instead of being rushed. All of the process was developed as a result of someone fucking up or bad things happening. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620855/#p620855 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @41-42, ah, I see. Oh, lets lockdown for 8-10 years while we over-extensively test a vaccine for something while hundreds of millions of people parish. Good idea! (I get the sense that you don't have a biology major, yet its you who's doing the armchair biology... Strange, don't you think?)Here's the thing: our legal process for approving a vaccine is ridiculously over-complicated and isn't equipped to handle pandemics. At all. Especially with something like COVID-19. MRNA tech has been studied extensively, and its highly unlikely that any long-term effects exist because of its use. Yes, those effects aren't entirely known, but we can use research that's already been conducted in the technology to draw conclusions.Also, post 41 was a ridiculous over-reaction. Like come on, dude. Challenge trials would work in a country like the US where we'd (obviously!) have procedures in place to ensure peoples safety while performing them. Hell, you could argue that the trials we execute are, in fact, challenge trials, since we have to find people with covid-19, and then test the vaccine on them to see if it works. Yes, those deaths should be investigated, but just because they happened doesn't mean that they'll happen in everyone who gets it. And, obviously, they'll be investigated. But just because 1300-1400 people died doesn't mean that we should halt all distribution of the vaccines.Finally, yes, people died when they got it. But that in no way means you can come in here and spread all this anti-MRNA fear. And you know what? More people are going to die if they take either vaccine. More people are going to suffer complications. But there is absolutely nothing we can do about that no matter how much we refine the vaccine. (Statistically, assuming that only 1,300 deaths have been caused out of the 43,373,717 vaccinations as of March 05, there is a 0.299 percent chance of death with the MRNA vaccine. That's a pretty low chance, I'd say.) As I said, the deaths will indubitably be investigated, but there's no need to spread your anti-MRNA vaccine FUD all over the place. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620848/#p620848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @41-42, ah, I see. Oh, lets lockdown for 8-10 years while we over-extensively test a vaccine for something while hundreds of millions of people parish. Good idea! (I get the sense that you don't have a biology major, yet its you who's doing the armchair biology... Strange, don't you think?)Here's the thing: our legal process for approving a vaccine is ridiculously over-complicated and isn't equipped to handle pandemics. At all. Especially with something like COVID-19. MRNA tech has been studied extensively, and its highly unlikely that any long-term effects exist because of its use. Yes, those effects aren't entirely known, but we can use research that's already been conducted in the technology to draw conclusions.Also, post 41 was a ridiculous over-reaction. Like come on, dude. Challenge trials would work in a country like the US where we'd (obviously!) have procedures in place to ensure peoples safety while performing them. Hell, you could argue that the trials we execute are, in fact, challenge trials, since we have to find people with covid-19, and then test the vaccine on them to see if it works. Yes, those deaths should be investigated, but just because they happened doesn't mean that they'll happen in everyone who gets it. And, obviously, they'll be investigated. But just because 1300-1400 people died doesn't mean that we should halt all distribution of the vaccines.Finally, yes, people died when they got it. But that in no way means you can come in here and spread all this anti-MRNA fear. And you know what? More people are going to die if they take either vaccine. More people are going to suffer complications. But there is absolutely nothing we can do about that no matter how much we refine the vaccine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620848/#p620848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @41-42, ah, I see. Oh, lets lockdown for 8-10 years while we over-extensively test a vaccine for something while hundreds of millions of people parish. Good idea! (I get the sense that you don't have a biology major, yet its you who's doing the armchair biology... Strange, don't you think?)Here's the thing: our legal process for approving a vaccine is ridiculously over-complicated and isn't equipped to handle pandemics. At all. Especially with something like COVID-19. MRNA tech has been studied extensively, and its highly unlikely that any long-term effects exist because of its use. Yes, those effects aren't entirely known, but we can use research that's already been conducted in the technology to draw conclusions.Also, post 41 was a ridiculous over-reaction. Like come on, dude. Challenge trials would work in a country like the US where we'd (obviously!) have procedures in place to ensure peoples safety while performing them. Hell, you could argue that the trials we execute are, in fact, challenge trials, since we have to find people with a particular condition, and then test the vaccine on them to see if it works. Yes, those deaths should be investigated, but just because they happened doesn't mean that they'll happen in everyone who gets it. And, obviously, they'll be investigated. But just because 1300-1400 people died doesn't mean that we should halt all distribution of the vaccines. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620848/#p620848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @41-42, ah, I see. Oh, lets lockdown for 8-10 years while we over-extensively test a vaccine for something while hundreds of millions of people parish. Good idea! (I get the sense that you don't have a biology major, yet its you who's doing the armchair biology... Strange, don't you think?)Here's the thing: our legal process for approving a vaccine is ridiculously over-complicated and isn't equipped to handle pandemics. At all. Especially with something like COVID-19. MRNA tech has been studied extensively, and its highly unlikely that any long-term effects exist because of its use. Yes, those effects aren't entirely known, but we can use research that's already been conducted in the technology to draw conclusions. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620848/#p620848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pfizer or Oxford?
Re: Pfizer or Oxford? @41-42, ah, I see. Oh, lets lockdown for 8-10 years while we over-extensively test a vaccine for something while hundreds of millions of people parish. Good idea! (I get the sense that you don't have a biology major, yet its you who's doing the armchair biology... Strange, don't you think?) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/620848/#p620848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
