[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: What Amp and Speakers Are You Using?
For the record I will attest that using my DEQ does not destroy my stereo spatial image. -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21643 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Now I know that this might sound like a silly question, and for non-hifi nuts and computer experts it probably is, but this is addressed to people like me - very fussy about my music and not totally convinced that computers don't involve witchcraft... If storage space were not an issue, would people actually sooner store their music totally uncompressed rather than use a 'lossless' codec? I know people are going to say that lossless preserves all the data etc. but let me ask you this: If someone invented a 'lossless' way of making food 'smaller' for storage by removing the water, would you rather eat an apparantly perfectly reconstituted or untouched version? I mean water is just water right? If you put it back where it came from is as good as before isn't it?... I'm sure this is more of a psychological question but then we live in the world of 'vibration cones', 'green pen on CD edges' and 'deep freeze your CDs for better sound' -- hifisteve hifisteve's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4227 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: What Amp and Speakers Are You Using?
Clive, I also have a turntable so, alas, no pre amp is not an option for me. I had been thinking of going active with an eVo6 or a 6 pack of 41Hz amps, as the Naim gear is getting quite pricey. cheers Gus -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21643 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
I was using cheapo optical in, plus Stereovox HDVX coaxial in and nice quality (but not audiofool) XLR cables out made from Van Damme/Neutrik bits. It is possible that the characteristic colorations of the 'briks are making it hard to notice the differences. In which case you shouldn't worry about the external DAC... I used to own a 52 and it is a great preamp. The 250 (which I also used to own) is fine too but the 'briks like lots of power and they are going to give you less distortion and better dynamics run active. But you would need two more stereo amps plus the Aktiv (sic) crossover. The arguments in favour of active operation are set out nicely on page 2 of the Aktiv manual: pdf: http://tinyurl.com/rewcr Andrew -- Andrew B. = SB3- Benchmark DAC1 - ATC CA2 pre - ATC SCM50ASL active speakers... nice! Andrew B.'s Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
hifisteve wrote: If someone invented a 'lossless' way of making food 'smaller' for storage by removing the water, would you rather eat an apparantly perfectly reconstituted or untouched version? I mean water is just water right? If you put it back where it came from is as good as before isn't it?... Let me give you a more appropriate analogy... Would you rather store 1000 inflated balloons or 1000 pieces of rubber which you could inflate when you needed them? I'm sure this is more of a psychological question but then we live in the world of 'vibration cones', 'green pen on CD edges' and 'deep freeze your CDs for better sound' And you believe *everything* you read, do you? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Hi, Sounds like a reasonable question to me and it all comes down to belief. If you believe the result of compressing and uncompressing is the same as the original then there's no problem choosing the compressed version. Now looking at your questions: 1) Why do I believe lossless compressions + decompression are 'perfect'. I didn't check the source code, I haven't actually compared before and after files. In fact the only check I have personally performed is that file sizes of the WAV before and after the process are the same. So why do I believe? a) firstly it is claimed to work b) I can hear no difference c) there are ways to check the process is perfect even if I haven't performed them d) I understand how to write my own test so I believe I could check myself 2) For food, why do I not believe? a) no one has ever claimed it b) I cannot conceive how it could work c) I believe that the 'information' encoded in the water cannot be preserved (ie location and energy of the water molecules) To take your analogy further, if someone could dehydrate a live mouse and then rehydrate the mouse back to a living active state I'd start to get much more comfortable about a ham sandwich! Finally, here's some beliefs that I think you have that you might not even have considered. These are all perfectly sound beliefs, but for the most part that's all they are until you have done some personal testing. (I believe them too and I haven't tested them!) 1) storage media doesn't matter, you believe slim server would work if the files were read from Hard Disk, CD ROM, DVD, or memory stick. 2) The quality, grade and type of ethernet cabling do not make any difference. 3) The operating system does not make any difference, you get the same result if you server files from a Windows PC, a MAC, a linux box, or Symbian PalmOs 4) Conversion from ISO format to WAV doesn't matter (one lossless format to another). What is stored on an audio CD is NOT wav files. 5) Renaming you WAV files makes no difference - this has already changed the structure of the information encoded on the storage media 6) Wearing a yellow hat on Tuesday does not improve the sound. I put in 6 deliberately simply to raise the point about why you believe it. I assume you have not done blind ABX tests with and without a yellow hat, yet you are able to be confident it makes no difference (as am I). So in summary, for IT we believe that lossless makes no difference because: 1) personal evidence gives no counter examples (we can't hear a difference and every test we have performed shows they are the same) 2) we have faith in the community that developed the tools 3) we believe we could independently test it if we chose to. That's all a bit deep and philosophical and paraphrases a lots of philosphy of science. But it's interesting to question even deeply held beliefs once in a while. Malcolm -- mwphoto http://www.last.fm/user/mwphoto/ mwphoto's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=652 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Andrew, I use identical cheapy din-rca leads and a reasonable diy bnc-rca coax. I tried the dac1 at a mate's house where we compared the xlr and rca outputs into a Belcanto/BW system. XLR was marginally better. I always thought that colouration meant that the sound gets changed in a certain way. Perhaps like an overpowering timbre. I never thought it would make all sources sound the same. I also own an LP12 and CDX. The difference between the CDX and the Dac1 is slightly bigger than the diff between the SB3 and the DAC1 but it is also pretty subtle. There are some ELAs in the junk room. I might have to pull them out for some stereo games. Failing that I'll get my ears dewaxed. ;-) cheers Gus Re the active thing, I have a naxo and an exposure crossover sitting in the cupboard waiting for more power amps. Thinking of a eVo6 or perhaps the 41Hz tripath amps... -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
It's easy enough to test the lossless theory using a hash algorithm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hash_function Just as a text file doesn't change after being zipped and unzipped, neither will music bits change with lossless compression and decompression. Losssless compression is essentially shorthand. Instead of reading zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, the sequence is notated as 6 zeroes. This saves a little space, and when read back, produces the exact same number pattern. On a more practical note, WAV files have no provision for metadata (tags). FLAC files do. Managing a collection without the benefit of tags is extremely cumbersome. I'd use FLAC for that reason alone, even if there was a detectable difference in sound quality. Thankfully, with FLAC I don't lose anything. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
I don't understand why this is still such an issue. (I suppose it's because new people always join the forum.) The FLAC code does not produce errors. Now, if you rip a WAV file with some errors, then of course, the FLAC file will also have errors. Obviously! So will the WAV file. If you're worried about the accuracy of ripping the WAV file, just use AccurateRip to verify the results. It boggles the mind that people keep insisting FLAC does not decode to the same PCM bitstream as WAV. If you question that, I suppose you've never used the ZIP format either. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
hifisteve Wrote: Other than the obvious compatability issues, any views on whether there's any other advantages/disadvantages of using Apple lossless rather than FLAC? Not really from an audio standpoint, they're about the same size and are both lossless. One of them is open source and the other requires quicktime to play it back. For me it was a convenience thing, Apple Lossless is easier for me because I can use iTunes to rip and manage my library. EAC may perhaps give a more accurate rip, but it's a pain to set up and manage the files and I couldn't hear a difference in the end. I think the only argument you could put for an audible difference between lossless and uncompressed, assuming accuracy of the codecs which actually is pretty easy to verify, is that they place different electrical loads on the SB power supply due to the additional decoding or alternate circuitry being exercised. However, the SB isn't a asynchronously clocked processing device, so the processor is always crunching code, and the same circuits are used irrespective of source data, so I can't see how there would be any elctrical differences. In the case of Apple Lossless, it's done on the server anyway, so absolutely no diference as far as the SB is concerned. Paul -- CardinalFang You're only young once, but you can be immature forever... CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Is there anyone here who refuses to deal with ZIP archives on the theory that what you get out might not be what you put in? Do you -believe- that your spreadsheets lose accuracy after they've been ZIPped? :-) To test a beta release of FLAC, I once used it to encode 3,000 WAV files, then decoded them and did a byte-by-byte comparison with the original WAV files. Not a *single* byte was out of place. I agree with Pale Blue Ego that being able to tag FLAC files is reason enough to choose FLAC over WAV. -- dem Dave dem's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2504 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best speaker/amp terminations?
Spades all the way. Best contact. Leaving copper exposed to air for exrended periods invites problems. Enjoy the new amp; what kind did you get btw? /harris -- puffalo puffalo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2506 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
dem Wrote: Is there anyone here who refuses to deal with ZIP archives on the theory that what you get out might not be what you put in? Do you -believe- that your spreadsheets lose accuracy after they've been ZIPped? :-) I'm not sure the zip file analogy is valid here. If all of the sixes in your spreadsheet had one pixel out of place, chances are slim that anyone would notice. However, critical audio listening might indeed pick up such a minor discrepancy. That said, I believe that FLAC produces the same audio signal as WAV, and for me the bandwidth issue (I'm running wireless) makes it a no-brainer. -- Kyle Kyle's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2541 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
...the only test that matters is: sit down, preferably with a glass of Peter Michael Les Pavots (I recommend the 2001), play music, close your eyes, and trust your instinct. If the sound and music vow you, why keep second-guessing whether something's wrong. I always compare the the original CD sound, and if that comparison is favorable (not perfect), I am fine. -- pablolie pablolie's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3816 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: What Amp and Speakers Are You Using?
Original setup. SB (toslink) Krell DSP Staightwaire Rhapsody Rogue Audio Tempest(AllTube) Integrated. AQ Midnight Hales Signature 2. New And Improved SB (analogue) Staightwaire Rhapsody Rogue Audio Tempest(AllTube) Integrated. AQ Midnight Hales Signature 2. Setup 2 blows the original away. It leads me to the conclusion that a top of the line 6 year old DSP might be inferior to the SB's onboard dac's. Certainly the elimination of 2 interconnects (toslink cable and krell to rogue) is also working in setup 2's favor. Happy listening /harris -- puffalo puffalo's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2506 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21643 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Best speaker/amp terminations?
It's a Parasound A23 I bought on Audiogon. It should be arriving next week. I'll have to post some pics of my new system when everything is finally together: SB3 (w/Elpac PSU)-Tributaries coax-NOS DAC (made by Derek Shek)-MIT Terminator 2 IC's-Endler Attenuators-Parasound A23-anti-cables-DIY speakers + Dayton Titanic 10 subwoofer The only thing I have left to do is upgrade the NOS power supply :) -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21462 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Kyle Wrote: I'm not sure the zip file analogy is valid here. If all of the sixes in your spreadsheet had one pixel out of place, chances are slim that anyone would notice. However, critical audio listening might indeed pick up such a minor discrepancy. That said, I believe that FLAC produces the same audio signal as WAV, and for me the bandwidth issue (I'm running wireless) makes it a no-brainer. The validity of the zip analogy is that both zip and flac are lossless. So there won't be any pixels, decimal points, or anything else out of place. -- aubuti aubuti's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2074 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
To play Devil's advocate for a moment (and I've been converting all my CDs to FLAC, so I'm not anti-FLAC) Here's a review of the McIntosh MS300 music server. The MS300 would certainly seem potentially to outperform the Squeezebox in all possible parameters, especially our home-brew ripping/encoding on our PCs with EAC, Flac, Itunes, or whatever After all, the SB3 is $300 - and I'm using an old Gateway Athlon 650 as my ripper/encoder with freeware doing the tasks. The MS300 couldn't possibly make worse FLAC copies - in all likelyhood, superior. http://ultimateavmag.com/mediaservers/1105mcintosh/index1.html Yet on page two, the reviewer claims he can definitely hear a difference between FLAC and the original CD. He said the FLAC sounds duller, flater than the original CD. I guess I really need to make some FLACS and AIFF/WAV files and do some intense comparisons, to see if I can hear what this reviewer is hearing. -- Cleve Two-channel system; McIntosh MC2205 amplifier McIntosh MAC4100 receiver Klipsch CF-4 speakers Denon DR-M3 Cassette Deck Cleve's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2048 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Cleve Wrote: Yet on page two, the reviewer claims he can definitely hear a difference between FLAC and the original CD. Setting aside for a moment my belief that non-blind comparisons like this guy did are invalid... FLAC's job is to make WAV files smaller. It doesn't rip the WAV files from the CD, and it doesn't convert WAV data to audio. So even if this guy did hear differences, it's unlikely it had anything to do with FLAC. Going back to my earlier analogy, you can't blame ZIP for someone else entering an incorrect formula in the spreadsheet. -- dem Dave dem's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2504 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Kyle Wrote: I'm not sure the zip file analogy is valid here. If all of the sixes in your spreadsheet had one pixel out of place, chances are slim that anyone would notice. However, critical audio listening might indeed pick up such a minor discrepancy. That said, I believe that FLAC produces the same audio signal as WAV, and for me the bandwidth issue (I'm running wireless) makes it a no-brainer. Which makes no sense, as spreadsheets don't store pixels they store numbers. If a spreadsheet file got corrupted, even by a single bit, it (a) almost certainly wouldn't even load into the application and (b) would have numeric or formulaic errors. People would notice. It doesn't happen. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Cleve Wrote: The MS300 would certainly seem potentially to outperform the Squeezebox in all possible parameters, especially our home-brew ripping/encoding on our PCs with EAC, Flac, Itunes, or whatever After all, the SB3 is $300 - and I'm using an old Gateway Athlon 650 as my ripper/encoder with freeware doing the tasks. Because cost is an indication of quality? Please. The MS300 couldn't possibly make worse FLAC copies - in all likelyhood, superior. Based on what? The fact that it costs money? The fact that it comes in a shiny box? This is an absurd argument. If you have a device which claims to use FLAC and which sounds different when playing them back versus the original CD it's BROKEN. I don't care how many millions of dollars it cost. Personally I don't trust sealed black boxes unless I can verify they are working properly by my own experimentation. I trust a binary diff more than my ears and hugely more than some ripoff manufacturer's marketing department. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
hifisteve Wrote: All I wanted to know is whether all 'audiophiles' are convinced that lossless compression truely has no impact on sound quality. That's an easy one. No, all of them are not convinced. Any other questions? -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
radish Wrote: Which makes no sense, as spreadsheets don't store pixels they store numbers. If a spreadsheet file got corrupted, even by a single bit, it (a) almost certainly wouldn't even load into the application and (b) would have numeric or formulaic errors. People would notice. It doesn't happen. Shows how little I know about the way computers work. -- Kyle Kyle's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2541 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
JJZolx Wrote: That's an easy one. No, all of them are not convinced. Any other questions? If 2+2=4 were an amplifier, then I'd upgrade it to 5 :) -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
P Floding Wrote: A trollig effort, or some kind of bad joke? You don't have to look very hard in some of the other audiophile forums to find a significant number of few people claiming that uncompressed WAV files sound better than FLAC when played on the Sqeezebox. Also, there are still claims that firmware prior to that released after version 15 sounds superior to the latest firmware and the patch that was instituted to correct the volume adjustment errors. Like anything else, let your own ears be the judge and use what you feel sounds better. I know what works for me. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
JJZolx Wrote: You don't have to look very hard in some of the other audiophile forums to find a significant number of people claiming that uncompressed WAV files sound better than FLAC when played on the Sqeezebox. Also, there are still claims that firmware prior to that released after version 15 sounds superior to the latest firmware and the patch that was instituted to correct the volume adjustment errors. Like anything else, let your own ears be the judge and use what you feel sounds better. I know what works for me. When played is a totally different issue! However, restoring FLAC to WAV, which can be done at any time offline, will restore the same data as the WAV. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
As far as the psychology is concerned, it may help not to use the word compressed in thinking about, say, FLAC vs. WAV. Rather, they are different representations of the same information. (Actually, as has been pointed out, FLAC has _more_ information, considering the tags.) Would you rather the same number were represented as: a. One thousand twenty-four b. 1024 c. 100 (base 2) d. A thousand? If you are writing a check, a and b, redundantly. In your check register, b, because that's the way you are accustomed to looking at it and to doing arithmetic; secondarily, because it is a little quicker to write and takes up less space, but you don't think of it as compressed, do you? Inside your computer, a, b or c, you don't care, as long as it is output correctly; but in fact you get c. For certain purposes, d: rounded off, which corresponds to lossy compression. Your analogy is not really a very useful one here, but I can't help noting that certain drugs are supplied with the water removed and have to be reconstituted for use because they are more stable that way. That is, you get something _more_ like the original by going through this compression/decompression cycle than by just letting the solution sit on the shelf. You could make this apply to audio formats if you wanted to: if you saved some redundant information (like a checksum) in the transformed file, it could reproduce the original _more_ faithfully than a bit-for-bit copy that might have or acquire errors in it. -- tom permutt tom permutt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1893 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
FLAC is a compression format. Compression just denotes the fact that the files are smaller in size, but says nothing about quality. What is more important to distinguish is lossy vs. lossless. FLAC is lossless compression, just like a zip file, as has been said too many times. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
ezkcdude Wrote: FLAC is a compression format. Compression just denotes the fact that the files are smaller in size, but says nothing about quality. What is more important to distinguish is lossy vs. lossless. FLAC is lossless compression, just like a zip file, as has been said too many times. I think you missed my point. Smaller than what? You might almost equally well say that WAV is an expansion format because there is no canonical way to express numbers or sounds or voltages inside a computer. -- tom permutt tom permutt's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1893 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
FLAC is smaller than WAV. Isn't that obvious? If you're going to be really anal about it, then any digital format is a compression of the orginal analog signal. -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
I agree with what people are saying here about lossless formats being, after all, lossless - but no one has addressed what seems to me to be the crucial question raised by the OP. Suppose the SB and/or the server isn't able to do bit-accurate FLAC decompression in real time? For example, in any computer occasionally there will be an error due to a bad hard drive read or a RAM glitch or something. In normal asynchronous applications this gets caught by error checking and corrected. But here the decoding has to occur at least fast enough to keep up with the music. So isn't it theoretically possible that some errors could creep in due to this? Let me be clear, I consider this very unlikely since it should be possible to decode FLAC files much faster than real time, thus leaving plenty of time for error corrections in the unlikely event one occurs. Also, such an uncorrected error would probably have a big effect on the sound, not a subtle one - unless the SB does some kind of interpolation after an error, as CD players do. But since FLAC files probably encode the data in a non-local (in time) way, this might be impossible. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
opaqueice wrote: Suppose the SB and/or the server isn't able to do bit-accurate FLAC decompression in real time? For example, in any computer occasionally there will be an error due to a bad hard drive read or a RAM glitch or something. In normal asynchronous applications this gets caught by error checking and corrected. But here the decoding has to occur at least fast enough to keep up with the music. So isn't it theoretically possible that some errors could creep in due to this? In theory, probably so. But FLAC is specifically designed to be asymetrical. It takes lots of computing power to compress, and is near trivial to decompress. It was designed for low power (CPU brain power) and even low power (milliwatt) devices like iPod kinds of things. It is designed to be very fast to decompress. So even a dumb microcontroller can decompress it. A more likely problem is network errors, and here FLAC being smaller is a win, as it can be retransmitted on average once (total twice) and still be keeping up with music speed. (whether that is real time, or if the master tapes are slow is a separate issue. Let me be clear, I consider this very unlikely since it should be possible to decode FLAC files much faster than real time, thus leaving plenty of time for error corrections in the unlikely event one occurs. Even retransmission. Also, such an uncorrected error would probably have a big effect on the sound, not a subtle one - unless the SB does some kind of interpolation after an error, as CD players do. But since FLAC files probably encode the data in a non-local (in time) way, this might be impossible. This is correct. Both WAV (really PCM) and FLAC lack the fake out interpolation logic that real CD players are required to have by the RedBook spec. Depending on what the error is, it could be very bad with either .wav or FLAC. Of course, no self respecting audiophile would consider the gross error covering done per the RedBook spec as being acceptable. Most of your case is pretty esoteric and not unique to music. Random cosmic rays do flip bits in memory. Not often, but it is known to happen. Such a change could cause problems in data, application code, or the OS itself. Most mortals just ignore it as too rare to worry about. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
opaqueice Wrote: I agree with what people are saying here about lossless formats being, after all, lossless - but no one has addressed what seems to me to be the crucial question raised by the OP. Suppose the SB and/or the server isn't able to do bit-accurate FLAC decompression in real time? For example, in any computer occasionally there will be an error due to a bad hard drive read or a RAM glitch or something. In normal asynchronous applications this gets caught by error checking and corrected. But here the decoding has to occur at least fast enough to keep up with the music. So isn't it theoretically possible that some errors could creep in due to this? Errors of a mathematical nature don't creep in. If the processing is unable to keep up then you would either have dropouts or else errors/approximations would have to be _intentionally_ introduced. For comparison, an SB or other device (such as a cheap $40 MP3 player), when playing back lossy streams such as MP3 has much more processing to do than when decoding Flac, due to the complexity of those other codecs. Flac is easy. -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Olive Musica
larsth Wrote: I looked at the German version of Olive (http://www.hermstedt.de/english/hifidelio/hifidelio.html) before deciding on SB. The showstopper for me regarding the Olive/Hifidelio is that you do not have free access to the music/data on the device. If you rip music on it, you cannot copy that to your own hard disk (wihtout hacking the box)! You even have to buy a back-up hard disk from them - you cannot connect a standard USB disk. You can access the ripped music files - you just have to telnet on to the box and change the Samba configuration file to expose the /audio/music directory - you can then copy them off as you wish - or you could even have a SlimServer running on it to connect a Squeezebox - this is what I am doing. - Simon. -- brookheather brookheather's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4317 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21135 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: volume control question - digital or analogue?
Hi, and thanks to everyone for all the very helpful suggestions. I've decided to go with the modified Khartago amp, which uses a very high quality potentiometer. I would prefer as few extra elements in my sound system as possible, and attenuators plus digital volume is two compared to one. Not to mention it'll be put together by pros who've been building these amps for years. So when it comes (by the end of the month I hope!) I'll have: SB3 - Lite DAC AH - Odyssey Khartago with volume knob - BW CM4. Sweet, simple, and won't break the bank. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
If you want to hear what happens when a portion of the Slimserver/SB chain can't keep up, turn on your microwave. Wireless interference will block the transmission of data to the SB. Luckily it has a big buffer so unless the interference is very long term, no effect whatsoever will be heard. Eventually the buffer will drain, in which case the music will stop. The SB will not try to guess (like a CDP) and it won't degrade the quality, it will just stop. So you can be sure that if you can hear anything, it's the right thing. -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Calling all audiophiles - Uncompressed or lossless?
Kyle Wrote: Shows how little I know about the way computers work. An easy mistake to make if you are not involved in the field. Not knowing everything there is to know about computers is fine, we're all experts in our own fields. But seeing as SlimServer/Squeezebox is basically just a computer all the way up to the DAC or SPDIF driver, I really wish some people would start trusting those of us who do know about this stuff :) -- radish radish's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=77 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21700 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
My Power One supply arrived today! It's somewhat more compact than the Elpac, but seems very well made. Nice thick glass epoxy board. I'll check it out and report back! -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with DIY Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: volume control question - digital or analogue?
Nothing wrong with that system ;) -- ezkcdude ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21617 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
Here's a shot of both power supplies, side by side. As you can see my older supply is significantly larger than the Power One. Much bigger power transformer. The Power One is rated for 5 Volts single voltage. The other has 12 volts as well. Perhaps this accounts for the larger size... +---+ |Filename: supply comparison.jpg| |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=967| +---+ -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with DIY Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
Let us know how it sounds once you've built it up, Crooner. Also lemme know if there's any transformer hum. Thanks, -Dan -- dwc dwc's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1892 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
I sure will! Looks like I have another weekend project :-) -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with DIY Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: What Amp and Speakers Are You Using?
Here is what I'm running my brand new SB3 through: Entech Number Cruncher DAC Musical Fidelity A300 dual-mono integrated amp Linn Keilidh speakers Beeautiful! -- kanoot kanoot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4324 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21643 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
Here's the new power supply all wired and ready to go. I had to rearrange the AC wires a little bit since the layout is different. Now, it's all soldered, no removable lugs, which I guess is better :-) It's reading 5.03 volts unloaded. Should I readjust it? +---+ |Filename: power one supply.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=968| +---+ -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with DIY Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Linear Power Supply DIY Weekend Project
Here's the power supply hooked to the SB3 and reading exactly 5 volts after adjustment. I am hoping the short cable run to the SB3 is not producing any significant drop in voltage. So far is running super cool compared to my other supply. I don't know why that other one ran so hot, but I'm glad it's gone! +---+ |Filename: supply exact voltage.jpg | |Download: http://forums.slimdevices.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=969| +---+ -- crooner Squeezebox 3 with DIY Linear Power Supply Lite Audio DAC60 tube DAC Pioneer SX-1980 Vandersteen 2Ce Signature Vandersteen 2W crooner's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3379 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=21505 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: SB-3 and external DAC
Patrick. thanks for the offer but I live in Australia. I saw some of your posts in pfm. The SB2+ looks very intersting. Are there any in Perth? I was just very surprised to see how similar my sources sound. Perhaps the difference lies in soundstage and pratt etc. Another friend has a CDS2/52/135/briks, I might have to cary the dac1 over there. It will take a bit more listing, but as it is summer and 37deg at the moment the beach is more tempting than the launch. cheers Gus -- gusi gusi's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3801 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=17948 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
