RE: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
It would be preferred if people could make use of places/services like Pastebin for huge amounts of data which frankly little of us want to see in our emails :) Cheers, Secret[] Private[] Public[x] Ian Forrester Senior Backstage Producer BBC RD North Lab, 1st Floor Office, OB Base, New Broadcasting House, Oxford Road, Manchester, M60 1SJ From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 22 November 2009 11:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability To to avoid, or perhaps to add to, the confusion, I thought I should run the FLETCH score for the link titles that Jakob Nielsen likes so much. Here they are with the article scores. Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 Floods body is missing policeman scores 37.635, Whisky body backs safe drinking scores 54.56. This means that the first one is harder than the second, but the score on the actual text is harder than the headline. Is a high score good (the BBC is not dumbing down) or bad (the BBC is inaccessible to the majority)? 2009/11/21 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Mo McRoberts wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking I’d contend that in terms of sheer readability of the headlines, the floods one is far worse—in that it takes far more effort, but having successfully parsed both, I’d have a reasonable idea of what both stories relate to (enough for me to decide whether to read them or not). So would I, hence my asking for the clarification that Brian provided. Indeed, there is a completely sensible parse of the first headline
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Ian, Sorry about that, it pasted fine into gmail and then it converted like that. 2009/11/24 Ian Forrester ian.forres...@bbc.co.uk It would be preferred if people could make use of places/services like Pastebin for huge amounts of data which frankly little of us want to see in our emails :) Cheers, Secret[] Private[] Public[x] Ian Forrester Senior Backstage Producer BBC RD North Lab, 1st Floor Office, OB Base, New Broadcasting House, Oxford Road, Manchester, M60 1SJ -- *From:* owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* 22 November 2009 11:52 *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability To to avoid, or perhaps to add to, the confusion, I thought I should run the FLETCH score for the link titles that Jakob Nielsen likes so much. Here they are with the article scores. Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 Floods body is missing policeman scores 37.635, Whisky body backs safe drinking scores 54.56. This means that the first one is harder than the second, but the score on the actual text is harder than the headline. Is a high score good (the BBC is not dumbing down) or bad (the BBC is inaccessible to the majority)? 2009/11/21 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Mo McRoberts wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking I’d contend that in terms of sheer readability of the headlines, the floods one is far worse—in that it takes far more effort, but having successfully parsed both, I’d have a reasonable idea of what both stories relate to (enough for me to decide whether to read them or not). So would I, hence my asking for the clarification that Brian provided. Indeed, there is a completely sensible parse of the first headline that makes it about a flood-related organization that is currently suffering from the absence of a police officer. -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web
RE: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
No worries, just don't let it happen again :) Secret[] Private[x] Public[] Ian Forrester Senior Backstage Producer BBC RD North Lab, 1st Floor Office, OB Base, New Broadcasting House, Oxford Road, Manchester, M60 1SJ From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 24 November 2009 12:42 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability Ian, Sorry about that, it pasted fine into gmail and then it converted like that. 2009/11/24 Ian Forrester ian.forres...@bbc.co.uk It would be preferred if people could make use of places/services like Pastebin for huge amounts of data which frankly little of us want to see in our emails :) Cheers, Secret[] Private[] Public[x] Ian Forrester Senior Backstage Producer BBC RD North Lab, 1st Floor Office, OB Base, New Broadcasting House, Oxford Road, Manchester, M60 1SJ From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: 22 November 2009 11:52 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability To to avoid, or perhaps to add to, the confusion, I thought I should run the FLETCH score for the link titles that Jakob Nielsen likes so much. Here they are with the article scores. Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 Floods body is missing policeman scores 37.635, Whisky body backs safe drinking scores 54.56. This means that the first one is harder than the second, but the score on the actual text is harder than the headline. Is a high score good (the BBC is not dumbing down) or bad (the BBC is inaccessible to the majority)? 2009/11/21 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Mo McRoberts wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
To to avoid, or perhaps to add to, the confusion, I thought I should run the FLETCH score for the link titles that Jakob Nielsen likes so much. Here they are with the article scores. Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 Floods body is missing policeman scores 37.635, Whisky body backs safe drinking scores 54.56. This means that the first one is harder than the second, but the score on the actual text is harder than the headline. Is a high score good (the BBC is not dumbing down) or bad (the BBC is inaccessible to the majority)? 2009/11/21 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Mo McRoberts wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking I’d contend that in terms of sheer readability of the headlines, the floods one is far worse—in that it takes far more effort, but having successfully parsed both, I’d have a reasonable idea of what both stories relate to (enough for me to decide whether to read them or not). So would I, hence my asking for the clarification that Brian provided. Indeed, there is a completely sensible parse of the first headline that makes it about a flood-related organization that is currently suffering from the absence of a police officer. -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Didn't realise that would get mangled, try again... Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 2009/11/22 Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv To to avoid, or perhaps to add to, the confusion, I thought I should run the FLETCH score for the link titles that Jakob Nielsen likes so much. Here they are with the article scores. Title score Title Article score 110.15 Boy aged 15 dies of stab wounds 47.46 98.06 MSPs to get power to ban airguns 38.81 98.06 Two women die in single car crash 37.71 94.04 More rain but flood risk lowers 50.37 94.04 Jackson glove sells for $350 000 50.01 94.04 Pair attempt to rob coffee shop 46.75 94.04 End 'cheap bevvies' Welsh urges 24.1 88.4 What the Scottish papers say 38.28 79.94 Men die after stolen car crashes 53.41 79.94 Ray Mears on Canada 'Welsh hero' 48.92 79.94 Search for missing woman in river 44.7 79.94 Group attacks taxi driver and car 41.82 79.94 Army checks police HQ car 'bomb' 40.43 74.86 Can psychics help to solve crime? 32.61 71.48 MSP seeks drink-drive limit cut 36.92 71.48 Facial wounds 'higher among poor' 34.48 65.84 Shed is cordoned off after blaze 46.59 65.84 Men held over police gun attack 35.59 65.84 Hearing for US army base 'gunman' 26.12 65.84 Blasts kill five in India's Assam 23.84 54.56 Manx fans welcome Hollywood star 49.42 54.56 Two people 'missing' after fire 46.85 54.56 City swimming pool plans unveiled 45.46 54.56 Indonesia ferry sinks in squall 43.5 54.56 Chinese mine blast toll doubles 40.08 54.56 Flood bridge safety checks begin 38.68 54.56 Cern Collider makes fast progress 36.61 54.56 Student visas 'soar' after change 36.41 54.56 Beijing concerns over mine blast 33.33 54.56 New jab offers better protection 24 54.56 Town centre's taxi marshal scheme 18.46 51.74 India push targets end of polio 34.55 51.74 Power is restored to city homes 30.18 51.74 Cameron and PM sorry over photos 29.03 37.64 Minibus crash man critically ill 37.43 37.64 Canoeist killed in swollen river 36.93 37.64 Israeli air strikes target Gaza 25.15 37.64 Boy's death remains 'unexplained' 24.16 20.72 Charge in mutilation murder case 39.54 20.72 Motorist fatally injured in crash 39.5 20.72 Paper publishes secret Iraq reports 33.89 20.72 US Senate approves health debate 30.47 20.72 Polls open in Romanian election 29.84 16.49 Whisky protected against copies 25.78 3.8 Tribute to caretaker fire victim 38.59 -4.67 Blaze destroys rural warehouse 29.08 -18.77 Lawnmowers 'injure thousands' 38.76 -25.82 Cameron planning emergency budget 29.63 -46.97 Azeri president threatens Armenia 27.22 -46.97 Senior Iranian reformer jailed 15.93 Floods body is missing policeman scores 37.635, Whisky body backs safe
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Brian Butterworth wrote: I've just done a bit of code that grabs the Fletch score for each of the newest stories on the BBC News site. 90.0–100.0 easily understandable by an average 11-year-old student 60.0–70.0 easily understandable by 13- to 15-year-old students 0.0–30.0best understood by university graduates So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking ? -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking Well, use of the word body is less ambiguous in the first headline. Also, if I knew nothing about the stories I could conclude that a policeman, who had been missing, had drowned in floods and his body been discovered. However I don't know anything about a whisky body and I can't guess at what it means other than a group of either whisky drinkers or distillers? I would have to read that story to understand it. Also, what is safe drinking - is drinking ever safe? etc. -- Flash Bristow -www.gorge.org-07939 579090 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- My best friend is disabled and urgently needs a communication aid - please watch the short video at http://www.imogenmay.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Sorry, no. The scores are for the text of the article, rather than just the headline. More... 53.71677885 Baby abuse father 'must be named' 49.91409462 Flood alert over threatened rains 48.42217391 Supermarket development under way 47.56608475 Fallen soldiers honoured by town 47.54757576 Two held after teenager stabbed 47.28943299 Teenager not seen for five days 46.80498857 Flood victims face further chaos 44.50471008 Cartoons explain danger of drugs 44.47005882 Plea to identify unconscious man 43.74905556 Fatal nightclub double shooting 43.53642857 Driver held after fatal car crash 42.96047619 Protest over school closure plan 42.70203431 Brown meets Cumbria flood victims 41.75764228 Helicopter rescues storm surfer 41.51876437 Terraced houses affected by fire 40.05687542 A primary choice in 'duck island' seat 39.79625567 Man injured in Belfast gun attack 39.2242246 Council cuts due in budget plan 38.23990909 Swimming pool water used for fire 37.9818599 Pupils take second set of tests 36.57971978 Fish talks result is 'appalling' 36.52183771 Knox prosecutors seek life term 36.22752664 Subway near station may be filled 35.83154049 Youth outdoor centre hit by theft 35.74738636 Father charged with sex offences 35.70654249 Dutch car maker plans move to UK 35.26077586 Teenage girl sexually assaulted 35.20083851 Impounded ferry cleared to sail 35.0906 Cash stolen in bookmakers robbery 33.80986425 University's 800 letters for 2109 33.74460445 US Senate set for healthcare test 32.58216395 Sri Lanka camps 'to be opened' 32.20713646 Baby boom puts burden on schools 31.81027778 Growing visitors prompt loo boost 31.20725564 Three teenagers injured in crash 29.01784091 Man critical after gas explosion 28.06983683 Vatican talks struggle to find unity 27.00362888 French hand-wringing over dubious win 26.73626146 Egypt leader enters football row 26.627 A90 closed after fatal accident 26.55764706 Chavez hails 'Carlos the Jackal' 26.00099398 Teenage boy's death investigated 25.99063265 Dog-friendly status aids business 25.72508264 Rough sleepers' cold weather help 25.4403395 'Failures' over -ú113m jet project 24.3415561 Jackson drugs bought in Las Vegas 22.61326117 Mumbai suspects arrested in Italy 22.04791391 Polluted reservoir 'in recovery' 20.13100173 Archbishop and Pope make progress 2009/11/21 Frank Wales fr...@limov.com Brian Butterworth wrote: I've just done a bit of code that grabs the Fletch score for each of the newest stories on the BBC News site. 90.0–100.0 easily understandable by an average 11-year-old student 60.0–70.0 easily understandable by 13- to 15-year-old students 0.0–30.0best understood by university graduates So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking ? -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 05:11:17PM +, Brian Butterworth wrote: Sorry, no. The scores are for the text of the article, rather than just the headline. Ah, fair enough. Ignore me, then :-) -- Flash Bristow -www.gorge.org-07939 579090 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Please help Imogen to communicate: http://www.imogenmay.com - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 15:51, backst...@gorge.org wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking Well, use of the word body is less ambiguous in the first headline. Also, if I knew nothing about the stories I could conclude that a policeman, who had been missing, had drowned in floods and his body been discovered. However I don't know anything about a whisky body and I can't guess at what it means other than a group of either whisky drinkers or distillers? I would have to read that story to understand it. Also, what is safe drinking - is drinking ever safe? etc. Reading those specific headlines, my initial assumption while reading the first one was to take “floods body” as the entity (e.g., the Environment Agency), which I would have to mentally correct to “body found in floods…”. That headline is initially ambiguous because in that context the term “Floods body” could mean either, and indeed would more likely refer to an organisation than an individual (e.g., a debate about funding or flood defences). In contrast, I wouldn’t ever think that “Whisky body” was anything other than a group of people connected to whisky production or drinking. Whether there’s such a thing as “safe drinking” isn’t necessary in order to parse the headline. I’d contend that in terms of sheer readability of the headlines, the floods one is far worse—in that it takes far more effort, but having successfully parsed both, I’d have a reasonable idea of what both stories relate to (enough for me to decide whether to read them or not). M. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Mo McRoberts wrote: On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 03:11:28PM +, Frank Wales wrote: So, am I supposed to conclude that: 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman is noticeably easier to read than: 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking I’d contend that in terms of sheer readability of the headlines, the floods one is far worse—in that it takes far more effort, but having successfully parsed both, I’d have a reasonable idea of what both stories relate to (enough for me to decide whether to read them or not). So would I, hence my asking for the clarification that Brian provided. Indeed, there is a completely sensible parse of the first headline that makes it about a flood-related organization that is currently suffering from the absence of a police officer. -- Frank Wales [fr...@limov.com] - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
[backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I’d suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can’t stand the short headlines. Everything’s phrased as though it’s a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I’d actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines ‘lengthened’. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
2009/11/20 John O'Donovan john.odono...@bbc.co.uk Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. Surely the idea should be to demonstrate that something is an improvement, rather than just changing it. As I pointed out if you calculate the reading score for these longer headlines, they score higher, meaning they are less good to those (unlike ourselves) who have lower reading skills. For higher skilled people, they just take longer to scan. If you said it was for SEO, that would be fine. But for usability, it sucks. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming That's just a fantastic headline. As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. Why would I be interested in this story if I don't use the product. I would suspect that MORE people don't know what a Procter Gamble is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
what's a reading score, brian? Best Cs Sent from my iPhone On 20 Nov 2009, at 12:55, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/11/20 John O'Donovan john.odono...@bbc.co.uk Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. Surely the idea should be to demonstrate that something is an improvement, rather than just changing it. As I pointed out if you calculate the reading score for these longer headlines, they score higher, meaning they are less good to those (unlike ourselves) who have lower reading skills. For higher skilled people, they just take longer to scan. If you said it was for SEO, that would be fine. But for usability, it sucks. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming That's just a fantastic headline. As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. Why would I be interested in this story if I don't use the product. I would suspect that MORE people don't know what a Procter Gamble is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/ changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
If people took everything Jakob said as gospel the web would be a far duller place. He's the devils advocate of web development, by offering and extreme view he just gets you to evaluate the decisions you have made. I think it's an improvement. I think the SEO thing is a bit of a red herring and the real benefit is the readability of articles etc. On 20/11/2009 12:18, John O'Donovan john.odono...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On 20-Nov-2009, at 12:49, Brian Butterworth wrote: As I pointed out if you calculate the reading score for these longer headlines, they score higher, meaning they are less good to those (unlike ourselves) who have lower reading skills. For higher skilled people, they just take longer to scan. If you said it was for SEO, that would be fine. But for usability, it sucks. er, you’re missing the point: the short headlines remain on the “section” pages. It’s only the article itself which has the long headline, by which point you’ve already clicked through. the other use-case is arriving at the page via a search engine—in which case richer titles are helpful (you’ve already told the SE what it is you’re looking for in any case). -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
It's like this http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/resources/topical/reading/reading.htm http://www.cimt.plymouth.ac.uk/resources/topical/reading/reading.htm $FLESCH=206.85-(0.846*$S)-(1.015*$W) where $S = total number of syllables in 100 words $W = average number of words in a sentence. 2009/11/20 Chris Sizemore chris.sizem...@bbc.co.uk what's a reading score, brian? Best Cs Sent from my iPhone On 20 Nov 2009, at 12:55, Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv wrote: 2009/11/20 John O'Donovan john.odono...@bbc.co.uk john.odono...@bbc.co.uk Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. Surely the idea should be to demonstrate that something is an improvement, rather than just changing it. As I pointed out if you calculate the reading score for these longer headlines, they score higher, meaning they are less good to those (unlike ourselves) who have lower reading skills. For higher skilled people, they just take longer to scan. If you said it was for SEO, that would be fine. But for usability, it sucks. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming That's just a fantastic headline. As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. Why would I be interested in this story if I don't use the product. I would suspect that MORE people don't know what a Procter Gamble is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ -Original Message- From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.ukowner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.ukowner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.ukbackstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.nethttp://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.commo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.netm...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the http://backstage.bbc.co.ukbackstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the http://backstage.bbc.co.ukbackstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tvhttp://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002 -- Brian
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On 20 Nov 2009, at 12:49, Brian Butterworth wrote: As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. because thousands might be two thousand, not over 100,000... 120K is a scary number to have missed QA, thousands is just a hiccup. The PG bit is not really the useful extra info, the number is. The PG info is useful after the number as you go through the house looking for other products that might have b0rked QA :-) f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
2009/11/20 Alun Rowe alun.r...@pentangle.co.uk If people took everything Jakob said as gospel the web would be a far duller place. He's the devils advocate of web development, by offering and extreme view he just gets you to evaluate the decisions you have made. Fair point. I think it's an improvement. I think the SEO thing is a bit of a red herring and the real benefit is the readability of articles etc. I'm left wondering exactly WHO the BBC News website is aimed at, in terms of reading ages. Does this change, and other subtle ones like it, slowly remove some people from the BBC News website? On 20/11/2009 12:18, John O'Donovan john.odono...@bbc.co.uk wrote: Thanks Mo, Hi Brian. We thought long and hard about this, but basically we think it's an improvement. For example, this headline may be short, but what is the article really about? http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7390109.stm Great tits cope well with warming As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. John O'Donovan Chief Technical Architect BBC Future Media Technology (Journalism) BC3 C1, Broadcast Centre, 201 Wood Lane, London http://news.bbc.co.uk/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport/ http://news.bbc.co.uk/weather/ Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of Mo McRoberts Sent: 20 November 2009 11:57 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability On 20-Nov-2009, at 11:45, Brian Butterworth wrote: Here's a nice little dillemma. http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2009/11/changing_headlines.html BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 One the one hand, king of usability Jacob Neilson has said the BBC News headlines are the world's best http://www.useit.com/alertbox/headlines-bbc.html On the other, Google likes lots of relevant keywords, the higher the reading score the better in fact. It's not like BBC News comes bottom of any Google search, is it? My question - which is more important, SEO or usability? Given the context: short headlines on the linking pages, longer headlines on the pages themselves, I'd suggest it strikes a good balance. However, I can't stand the short headlines. Everything's phrased as though it's a lie. Yes, I know the reasons, it still reads terribly, no matter what Neilson reckons. So in fact, I'd actually prefer to see the longer headlines all of the time (which does SEO no harm at all). BBC headlines 'lengthened'. M. -- mo mcroberts http://nevali.net iChat: mo.mcrobe...@me.com Jabber/GTalk: m...@ilaven.net Twitter: @nevali Run Leopard or Snow Leopard? Set Quick Look free with DropLook - http://labs.jazzio.com/DropLook/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv writes: BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 I always wondered if there was someone working for Ceefax who took great pride in working out how to word all their news headlines to be exactly the same length. A screenshot I took on 29th July 2001 reads: PROBE URGED INTO VIRUS SHEEP SCAM ISRAEL Police storm mosque compound TRAIN Prosecutors handed crash file TERRORISM Four held by Irish police DEATHS Lake-plunge youngsters named SARAH Derisory payout for parents INDIA PM attacks Pakistan president CAT Woman dies after vein scratched BODY OF MAN FOUND BESIDE MAJOR ROAD ATTACK Mother-of-four badly injured FIRE Motorway brought to standstill CENTRE New development for disabled PAYNE Payouts to parents derigory HEAT Motorways jammed by sunseekers CHARITY Prince to attend polo match INJURY Woman dies after cat scratch IN BRIEF News from round the region -- Adam Sampson a...@offog.org http://offog.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
I think that's what I was getting at. In less than one whole kilobyte (seven tweets), everything you need to know. Is concise a fad that has passed? 2009/11/20 Adam Sampson a...@offog.org Brian Butterworth briant...@freeview.tv writes: BBC News headlines go from 33 characters (because of Ceefax) to 66 I always wondered if there was someone working for Ceefax who took great pride in working out how to word all their news headlines to be exactly the same length. A screenshot I took on 29th July 2001 reads: PROBE URGED INTO VIRUS SHEEP SCAM ISRAEL Police storm mosque compound TRAIN Prosecutors handed crash file TERRORISM Four held by Irish police DEATHS Lake-plunge youngsters named SARAH Derisory payout for parents INDIA PM attacks Pakistan president CAT Woman dies after vein scratched BODY OF MAN FOUND BESIDE MAJOR ROAD ATTACK Mother-of-four badly injured FIRE Motorway brought to standstill CENTRE New development for disabled PAYNE Payouts to parents derigory HEAT Motorways jammed by sunseekers CHARITY Prince to attend polo match INJURY Woman dies after cat scratch IN BRIEF News from round the region -- Adam Sampson a...@offog.org http://offog.org/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:31 -, you wrote: snip As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. How about PG recall 120,000 Vicks sprays!! or Vicks nasal spray in health alert (that is how PA tell it) or Health worry with PG Vicks Sinex or Nation saved by Vicks recall Paul Webster - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
2009/11/20 Paul Webster p...@dabdig.com: On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:31 -, you wrote: snip As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. How about PG recall 120,000 Vicks sprays!! or Vicks nasal spray in health alert (that is how PA tell it) or Health worry with PG Vicks Sinex or Nation saved by Vicks recall Or from the Daily Express: Diana: Did she use the lethal nasal spray? -- Peter Bowyer Email: pe...@bowyer.org Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC News - Googlejuice vs Usability
I've just done a bit of code that grabs the Fletch score for each of the newest stories on the BBC News site. 90.0–100.0easily understandable by an average 11-year-old student60.0–70.0easily understandable by 13- to 15-year-old students0.0–30.0best understood by university graduates 60.6 Oprah Winfrey's announcement 55.7 Weather update 52.2 River Severn flood alert remains 50.7 Officer jailed for Pc sex assault 47.0 Tributes paid to flood death Pc 47.0 Wife 'organised contract killing' 45.8 Father believes Tulay 'is alive' 44.5 Men in court over armed burglary 44.4 Man guilty of ice-scrape carjack 43.2 Floods body is missing policeman 42.4 Oprah announces end of talk show 42.1 Police seek man over sex attack 41.9 Pledge Watch: Cutting hedges 41.4 Pay-out for asbestos death family 41.1 Have you tried out Google Chrome? 40.6 ECB slows emergency cash support 40.5 Nigeria's returning entrepreneurs 40.4 Muggers admit killing old woman 40.2 Housing project may change hands 38.9 Is the new EU President a good choice? 37.4 Police officer fails in legal bid 36.7 UK navy fires on 'Spanish flag' 35.1 Body found in flood is missing Pc 34.9 Vaccine offered for under-fives 34.3 Filling stations in north closed 34.2 Pride appeal as boss steps down 33.6 Hammer pair's sentences increased 33.3 Villa seeks cash for conservation 33.2 'Gang asbos' extended to children 32.8 Carjacker was known crack addict 31.0 Mussolini 'brain for sale on web' 30.4 Drug resistant swine flu hits UK 30.3 Iran criticised over nuclear deal 30.2 Universities 'face tougher times' 30.1 Riot over Egypt football defeat 29.1 University academic posts to go 28.5 Lib Dems can keep -ú2.4m donation 27.4 Priest denies abusing three girls 26.6 Megrahi 'should return to prison' 26.5 Arrests during anti-social sting 24.6 Woman charged over child images 22.6 Whisky body backs safe drinking 21.5 New nuclear sub arrives on Clyde 19.3 Sani Abacha son 'must pay $350m' 18.3 Match-fix probe targets 200 games 17.1 Tory donor probe 'could drag on' 15.0 Sri Lanka minorities hold talks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flesch-Kincaid_Readability_Test for details. 2009/11/20 Peter Bowyer pe...@bowyer.org 2009/11/20 Paul Webster p...@dabdig.com: On Fri, 20 Nov 2009 12:18:31 -, you wrote: snip As an example, I think for this story: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8369764.stm Procter Gamble recalls 120,000 Vicks nasal sprays ...is much clearer than... Thousands of Vicks spray recalled Especially if you don't know what Vicks is. How about PG recall 120,000 Vicks sprays!! or Vicks nasal spray in health alert (that is how PA tell it) or Health worry with PG Vicks Sinex or Nation saved by Vicks recall Or from the Daily Express: Diana: Did she use the lethal nasal spray? -- Peter Bowyer Email: pe...@bowyer.org Follow me on Twitter: twitter.com/peeebeee - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Brian Butterworth follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/briantist web: http://www.ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
