Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

On 28/01/2008, Martin Deutsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Brian Butterworth
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a
> TV
> > Anytime feed from:
> >
> >
> http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html
> >
> > And then I had a look at the feed:
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9
> >
> > And I note, for example:
> >
> >
> >
> dvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M
> >
> > That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is
> >
> > 2008-01-28T20:30:00Z
> >
> > So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get
> onto
> > Microsoft and get them to use the right data
>
> Wow. I honestly didn't realise that was out there. I wonder if ITV do?
> It's still obviously got the caveat that, despite everyone's best
> efforts in playout, programmes don't always run exactly to time, even
> in largely automated channels such as on the UKTV network; and your
> best bet of keeping track of programmes running is using the EIT.


Yes..  but it's probably easier to get Microsoft to fix their EPG than
rewrite their BDA.


I don't have a copy of the Radio Times handy, but I'll maybe get
> started eating the Guardian's tv pages.


I bet Charlie Brooker gives you indigestion if you do...


> Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV
> > one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or  1, 2, CB, CB.  Is there a way to get a
> picture
> > for each programme automatically?
>
> the iPlayer site has programme images, which look easy to get,
> provided you can get the PIP: eg
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/images/episode/b008s9k6_150_84.jpg
> (150_84 is the image dimensions, 303_170 should work too)
> Perhaps someone here will know how far in the past/future they exist;
> putting in a dud PIP will give a generic iPlayer logo.


Is there an easy way to get the b008s9k6 bit from the TV Anytime data?


- martin
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Martin Deutsch]

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 7:40 PM, Brian Butterworth
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV
> Anytime feed from:
>
> http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html
>
> And then I had a look at the feed:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9
>
> And I note, for example:
>
>
> dvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M
>
> That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is
>
> 2008-01-28T20:30:00Z
>
> So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get onto
> Microsoft and get them to use the right data

Wow. I honestly didn't realise that was out there. I wonder if ITV do?
It's still obviously got the caveat that, despite everyone's best
efforts in playout, programmes don't always run exactly to time, even
in largely automated channels such as on the UKTV network; and your
best bet of keeping track of programmes running is using the EIT.

I don't have a copy of the Radio Times handy, but I'll maybe get
started eating the Guardian's tv pages.

> Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV
> one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or  1, 2, CB, CB.  Is there a way to get a picture
> for each programme automatically?

the iPlayer site has programme images, which look easy to get,
provided you can get the PIP: eg
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/images/episode/b008s9k6_150_84.jpg
(150_84 is the image dimensions, 303_170 should work too)
Perhaps someone here will know how far in the past/future they exist;
putting in a dud PIP will give a generic iPlayer logo.

 - martin
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Right, I'll try Microsoft.  Thanks for everyone's help on this.

*http://tinyurl.com/2wpzjj*



On 28/01/2008, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Now I feel a bit dumb!
>
> I started looking at building a "theme" for iGoogle and thought that as
> you can get them to change based on the current local time, I would make a
> BBC ONE version for backstage.
>
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/ig?skin=http://www.ukfree.tv/igoogle/igoogle-theme0001.xml
>
> Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV
> Anytime feed from:
>
> http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html
>
> And then I had a look at the feed:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9
>
> And I note, for example:
>
>
> dvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M
>
> That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is
>
> 2008-01-28T20:30:00Z
>
> So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get
> onto Microsoft and get them to use the right data
>
>
> Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV
> one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or  1, 2, CB, CB.  Is there a way to get a picture
> for each programme automatically?
>
> ---
> Brian
>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

Brian Butterworth
http://www.ukfree.tv

Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Now I feel a bit dumb!

I started looking at building a "theme" for iGoogle and thought that as you
can get them to change based on the current local time, I would make a BBC
ONE version for backstage.

http://www.google.co.uk/ig?skin=http://www.ukfree.tv/igoogle/igoogle-theme0001.xml

Consequently I went to look at the schedule feeds again, and I built a TV
Anytime feed from:

http://www0.rdthdo.bbc.co.uk/services/api/bbc.schedule.getProgrammes.html

And then I had a look at the feed:

http://tinyurl.com/3c4cb9

And I note, for example:


dvb://233a.1004.1044;[EMAIL PROTECTED]:29:44Z/PT00H30M

That the time listed is 20:29:44 for example, then there is

2008-01-28T20:30:00Z

So, it's not a secret, it IS published and it looks like I need to get onto
Microsoft and get them to use the right data


Appreciate feedback about the iGoogle theme... I'm thinking that a BBC TV
one that shows 1, 2, 3, 4 or  1, 2, CB, CB.  Is there a way to get a picture
for each programme automatically?

---
Brian

Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Steve,

Thanks


On 25/01/2008, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME -
> > that's 1/25 of a second.  That is how channels are scheduled.
>
> Scheduling systems may be accurate to 1/25 of a second, but that doesn't
> necessarily imply that they are equally precise.  The ability to change
> their minds up to the last minute *and beyond* means that the accurate
> times need only reflect the schedulers' intentions, rather than being
> set in stone.


However, my contention is that the schedule has been changed well ahead of
broadcast.  I don't doubt that there are changes made late, but the use of
promotional films, indent sequences and continuity announcements means that
almost all programmes start exactly on time.

MyTV system, which at the time was lots of companies with different
schedules and with the added complication of inserting a heap of different
regional advertisements, certainly needed to be accurate and precise to get
everyone working together.


> My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged
> > along a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this
> > is being withheld.
> >
> > I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I
> > suppose.
>
> That would be more useful than asserting it without any evidence,
> certainly.


Aside from the actual timings, of course.  And the new NaT on ITV1...


> Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise?
> >
> > 99% in such environments is terrible.
>
> Firstly, titles *are* imprecise - they contain spelling errors and
> inconsistencies (eg "Brand New Top Gear" vs "Top Gear" vs "Best of Top
> Gear", etc) that make it very hard for PVRs to do useful things with
> them (eg title-based series detection).  Secondly, millions of people
> *do* find schedules useful despite the lack of total accuracy.  So 99%
> in such environments is adequate.


This doesn't happen. They would all be recorded with the Microsoft PVR
software, I'm afraid.

See:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006mj59



> As a justification for doing nothing, yes.
>
> Something has already been done - a standard for accurate recordings has
> been agreed and implemented by the broadcasters and PVR manufacturers.


But who would want one of these boxes with the facilities of ZX Spectum when
I have a HD, 3D PVR with a Terrabyte of storage?


> I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems.
>
> The people who have bought standards-compliant PVRs get accurate
> recordings.


I'll get onto Microsoft about this then!


S
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
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>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Steve Jolly]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME - 
that's 1/25 of a second.  That is how channels are scheduled.


Scheduling systems may be accurate to 1/25 of a second, but that doesn't 
necessarily imply that they are equally precise.  The ability to change 
their minds up to the last minute *and beyond* means that the accurate 
times need only reflect the schedulers' intentions, rather than being 
set in stone.


My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged 
along a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this 
is being withheld.
 
I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I 
suppose.


That would be more useful than asserting it without any evidence, certainly.

Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise? 
 
99% in such environments is terrible.


Firstly, titles *are* imprecise - they contain spelling errors and 
inconsistencies (eg "Brand New Top Gear" vs "Top Gear" vs "Best of Top 
Gear", etc) that make it very hard for PVRs to do useful things with 
them (eg title-based series detection).  Secondly, millions of people 
*do* find schedules useful despite the lack of total accuracy.  So 99% 
in such environments is adequate.



As a justification for doing nothing, yes.


Something has already been done - a standard for accurate recordings has 
been agreed and implemented by the broadcasters and PVR manufacturers.



I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems.


The people who have bought standards-compliant PVRs get accurate recordings.

S
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

On 25/01/2008, Gareth Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian,
>
> It seems to me that one of the reasons this thread is going on so long
> is that many of the people in it share a belief which you don't - and
> to them it seems so obvious that they haven't bothered to state it
> explicitly. Here is what I believe is the major axiom of contention:
>
"It is impossible to run a broadcast channel precisely to schedule"


As a committed atheist, I don't ever believe anything!

As someone who wrote the ITV scheduling system back in 1992, I actually have
the experience to know of what I speak, no matter what other people choose
to believe.

The system I wrote for ITV over 15 years ago worked down to the FRAME -
that's 1/25 of a second.  That is how channels are scheduled.

Most channels are just playout systems, this is particularly true for things
like UKTV.

Some channels are a mixture of live and recordings (BBC ONE, ITV-1) and
these still manage to schedule programmes within second.  The only exception
is once-a-year news events or sports.

There are some totally live channels too, such as NEWS 24.


It seems to me that Brian's suggestions make sense if this axiom turns
> out  to be false. Similarly it seems to me that everyone else's
> defence of the status quo is a description of an engineering
> work-around designed to compensate for the problems caused by this
> axiom holding true.


My point was that the schedule on BBC TWO has been deliberately nudged along
a few minutes to gain a competitive schedule advantage, and this is being
withheld.

I could just ask the BBC TWO scheduler if this is the case or not, I
suppose.


Martin and Brian batted back and forth:
> > > If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which
> > > publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their
> > > programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll
> > > gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1].
> > I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute.
>
> I suspect that Martin's response might well be "Ok - but they don't
> actually stick to that schedule". Indeed Steve has already said:
>
> > I mean, think how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips.
>
> This is because they're trying their damndest to stick to a schedule
> that's too tight. So they come in late on a regular basis. Just like
> Southern Trains, in fact.


Running something to a schedule is vital, because if you don't just chuck
other people off the air, which would be selfish...

News 24 is a great example of a TV channel that can keep to a schedule!

And, like trains, broadcast schedules are supposed to be there so people can
easily change from one line to another!


There are a number of possible solutions to this problem. The one that
> seems to have been universally adopted by UK TV networks is to publish
> a fuzzy timetable. One that's accurate to about 5 minutes. They can
> aim internally for minute-accuracy, but they know they won't get it.
> This is OK, because they didn't promise minute-accuracy to the world -
> only 5-minute accuracy. This is comparable to the standard practice
> when making Hi-Fi equipment. If you build an amp that can cope with an
> input range of between x and y (before it blows up), then you'll write
> on the box that it can cope with between x+delta and y-delta. That way
> there's some tolerance for when things go wrong.


The schedule is accurate, but not precise.


If you want to make an FOI request for the timetable everyone aims at
> internally, then I'm sure you'll get it. But it won't come with any
> guarantees. If they were to publish it in the EPG, then people would
> complain when it turned out that 99% of the programmes broadcast at
> different times to those scheduled. They don't want to imply a
> guarantee that they can't keep, so they won't volunteer the
> minute-accurate target schedule.


Would an EPG be useful if the titles were imprecise?

99% in such environments is terrible.



Is that at all helpful?



As a justification for doing nothing, yes.

I'm just thinking of the user of the PVR systems.


Gareth.
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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-- 
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Gareth Smith]

Brian,

It seems to me that one of the reasons this thread is going on so long
is that many of the people in it share a belief which you don't - and
to them it seems so obvious that they haven't bothered to state it
explicitly. Here is what I believe is the major axiom of contention:

"It is impossible to run a broadcast channel precisely to schedule"

It seems to me that Brian's suggestions make sense if this axiom turns
out  to be false. Similarly it seems to me that everyone else's
defence of the status quo is a description of an engineering
work-around designed to compensate for the problems caused by this
axiom holding true.

Martin and Brian batted back and forth:
> > If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which
> > publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their
> > programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll
> > gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1].
> I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute.

I suspect that Martin's response might well be "Ok - but they don't
actually stick to that schedule". Indeed Steve has already said:

> I mean, think how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips.

This is because they're trying their damndest to stick to a schedule
that's too tight. So they come in late on a regular basis. Just like
Southern Trains, in fact.

There are a number of possible solutions to this problem. The one that
seems to have been universally adopted by UK TV networks is to publish
a fuzzy timetable. One that's accurate to about 5 minutes. They can
aim internally for minute-accuracy, but they know they won't get it.
This is OK, because they didn't promise minute-accuracy to the world -
only 5-minute accuracy. This is comparable to the standard practice
when making Hi-Fi equipment. If you build an amp that can cope with an
input range of between x and y (before it blows up), then you'll write
on the box that it can cope with between x+delta and y-delta. That way
there's some tolerance for when things go wrong.

If you want to make an FOI request for the timetable everyone aims at
internally, then I'm sure you'll get it. But it won't come with any
guarantees. If they were to publish it in the EPG, then people would
complain when it turned out that 99% of the programmes broadcast at
different times to those scheduled. They don't want to imply a
guarantee that they can't keep, so they won't volunteer the
minute-accurate target schedule.

Is that at all helpful?

Gareth.
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Thanks for the response

On 24/01/2008, Martin Deutsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2008 3:31 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [...]
> > "broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes
> anywhere",
> > which is not quite
>
> Can I assume the word missing from the end of your sentence was "true"?
>
> If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which
> publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their
> programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll
> gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1].



I have already said that the BBC Radio 4 schedule is to the minute.

[...]
>
> > > In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC.
> > > (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also
> > > direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV
> > > Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.)
> >
> > I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the
> EPG
> > information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to "acknowledge
> > mistakes" and provide  "accuracy" in the data.
> >
> > If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's
> > Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the "Memorandum of
> > Understanding" and get MS to sort it out.
>
> It's not being nobbled. The information you want isn't out there. It
> may exist internally, but it's not for public consumption. The
> standard method[2] is to get billed timings from the schedule in
> advance, and then look for when that event's 'running' in the EIT.
> From what you've said so far, Microsoft have chosen to do it a
> different way in Media Center.


Of course the information exists internally!  Saying that something that the
BBC, which is funded by a universal tax on the public, which is a PUBLIC
service broadcasters cannot provide said public with any information is
quite frankly appalling.

Yes, Microsoft have chosen to assume that the schedule information they get
is accurate.

If someone at the BBC wishes to force them to rewrite their BDA, which they
use in every country in the world, to make it more UK-centric, I would be
happy about that.

I know everyone here likes having a go at Microsoft, but it's the BBC that
has a Memoramdum of Understanding, so I probably should be someone in the
BBC's job to say "that EPG information we provide you with is inaccurate,
please redesign your broadcast architecture".

I suspect the problem lies with the fact that the MS record facility is a
'file copy' from the source to the hard drive without any decoding or
interpretation of the data.


> As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S
> as
> > an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions.  It took quite
> a
> > lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations!
>
> ...so do you think the broadcasters should try to make up for your
> media player's shortcomings? Or should Microsoft perhaps make their
> software more aware of the way things are done around here?


Both.  There are not incompatible.

Remember that the MS system works with DVB-T, DVB-S and also can work with
an external set-top box and a analogue input.  So, reading the DVB streams
better would work with digital data, but not with an external decoder.


- martin
>
>
> [1] Other listings magazines are available.
> [2] cf. the 'digital tick' specs to which I referred in an earlier
> message.
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>



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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Steve Jolly]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the 
EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to 
"acknowledge mistakes" and provide  "accuracy" in the data.


Accuracy is impractical.  Locking the start time of programmes to a 
second-precise pre-published schedule would cause chaos.  I mean, think 
how often Radio 4 presenters crash the pips.  If you had a channel with 
no live content, no continuity, no opt-outs and no last-minute 
programming changes then you might have a chance, but you can't design 
the EPG system for an entire platform around those limitations.


So instead, you engineer a compromise.  The schedule becomes a guideline 
- people can use it for planning their viewing, and PVRs can use it to 
try and stop you from booking more simultaneous recordings than you have 
tuners, and as a way to plan when to switch themselves on and tune in. 
Then you have a precisely-timed trigger signal (EIT P/F on Freeview) 
that the PVR can use to tell when the programme starts and ends.  That 
way the broadcaster retains the flexibility to change the schedule as 
often as they need to, while the consumer still gets accurate recordings.


You appear to be asking for last-minute schedule changes to be published 
separately.  Well, you could do that, but the system I just described is 
better*, so that's what's been implemented.


*it allows PVRs to behave correctly even when programmes overrun 
indefinitely and without prior warning, for example.


If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's 
Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the "Memorandum of 
Understanding" and get MS to sort it out.


Do you really need a letter saying that WMC has not been certified as 
compliant with the Freeview Playback standard?  Doesn't the absence of a 
Freeview Playback badge on WMC-based devices mean that Microsoft already 
know?


I think that the core issue here is your assertion that published 
schedules should be as precise as possible, and updated as often as 
necessary.  I don't think that most people expect that to be the case, 
and I don't personally see a compelling argument for making it so.  If 
accurate Freeview recording from WMC is important to you, I would 
suggest that you direct your efforts towards getting Microsoft to 
implement it using the existing standards, and ideally get WMC certified 
by the DTG while they're at it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/papers/pdffiles/ibc99pl.pdf might be of 
interest to people following this discussion.


S
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

On 24/01/2008, David Greaves <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Caveat: I'm an amateur in this area who knows a bit because I run a MythTV
> system. Be polite if you correct me.



It's my New Year Resolution to be polite in emails.

My experience of the EPG issue goes all the way back to 1992, when I was
part of a team that totally computerised and automated the system the ITV
companies used, which was quite complicated because it was lots of companies
and the network was also used to deliver content from company to company for
later playout.

I've been using the Windows Media Center since the first version, and I'm
now onto the Vista one.


Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > > I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at
> > 2202-2232
> > > then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers.
>
> Doesn't the EPG offer an advance 'target schedule' (as per Radio Times/TV
> Times
> of old) to the nearest 5 minutes and a supplemental 'as broadcast'
> delivered via
> the EIT (or whatever the OTA/OTC technology is).


You can set the PVR to record a set number of minutes on the end of the
program.  The only problem is when you are using both receivers, the overrun
is cancelled when it would stop the start of another programme recording.

The EPG is to the minute,  for example "Prayer for the Day" on Radio 4 lists
as 05:43-05:45, for example.


Maybe an EIT/HTTP gateway would appear to be useful but I don't think it's
> that
> simple.
>
> Should an EPG even include 'as broadcast' information?


My feelings is that the EPG should be as precise and accurate as possible.
The idea of the EPG is that it is a temporal tagging of the television and
radio content.


I'd say not.
>
> From a UI point of view I see an EPG as being a coarse grained forward
> planning
> system for use by humans. The EIT can fine-tune a system to interpret an
> EPG but
> not 'change' it.


I'm not sure how 'humans' are helped by being provided by incorrect
information.  If BBC TWO's programme starts at 10:02pm, and I saw that in
advanced, I could watch the news headlines and then watch my show, surely?


Say I ask my PVR to record Dr Who on Thursday night at 7pm (1) - if a plane
> crashes at Heathrow at 6:30pm and there is live coverage; Dr Who is
> cancelled.
> So when I go and look at the EPG I see Dr Who has gone - what's up with
> that
> then? Am I an idiot? I'm sure it was there...
> Actually I still want to see the original EPG data supplemented with
> broadcast data.


The Media Center picks up all these kind of schedule changes automatically
as it checks for updates to the listings frequently, and you can select
"update guide listings" at anytime to force it to. If a programme is
cancelled or shifted it records it for you!

In my world the idea of computers is that can be programmed to make it easy
for the user.  I would like to think that any EPG and PVR software should be
able to download and tag TV content perfectly.


A different scenario is that the storyline in a show shows events that are
> deemed inappropriate (eg showing 'Airplane' the week of 9/11) so the
> schedule is
> changed a couple of days in advance - the EPG should change and may make
> mention
> in the comments of replacing previously scheduled programmes.


Yes, Media Center has a log screen and this would appear in the list as you
say.


(1) OK, for the record: I actually say 'record Dr Who whenever it's on and
> just
> get one copy of each episode - go sort it out' and watch it when it
> appears in
> my list. That's the benefit of geeky OSS for you though.


Yup, Media Center does that for me.

But for Working Lunch, Newsnight and The Daily Politics, it records each one
and keeps just one...


> The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact
> > start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your
> > Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at
> > 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying "oh, hey, you know that
> > programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few
> seconds,
> > so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start."
> It's
> > how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and
> > it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables.
> >
> >
> > "broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes
> > anywhere", which is not quite
> So they don't publish it - they broadcast it - for free!! Using the same
> technology you use to pick up the TV signal. In a well defined manner. The
> buggers!



As I recall, it's not free.

> Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice
> > is using a listings guide that's based on the same information
> that's
> > provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a
> > service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the
> air
> > with DTT.
> >
> >
> > That se

Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Martin Deutsch]

On Jan 24, 2008 3:31 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> "broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere",
> which is not quite

Can I assume the word missing from the end of your sentence was "true"?

If you can show me a broadcast schedule for a major channel which
publicly publishes, in advance, the exact start times of their
programmes (eg Never Better, Tonight at 2202 on BBC Two), then I'll
gladly eat a copy of the Radio Times[1].

[...]

> > In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC.
> > (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also
> > direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV
> > Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.)
>
> I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG
> information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to "acknowledge
> mistakes" and provide  "accuracy" in the data.
>
> If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's
> Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the "Memorandum of
> Understanding" and get MS to sort it out.

It's not being nobbled. The information you want isn't out there. It
may exist internally, but it's not for public consumption. The
standard method[2] is to get billed timings from the schedule in
advance, and then look for when that event's 'running' in the EIT.
>From what you've said so far, Microsoft have chosen to do it a
different way in Media Center.

> As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as
> an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions.  It took quite a
> lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations!

...so do you think the broadcasters should try to make up for your
media player's shortcomings? Or should Microsoft perhaps make their
software more aware of the way things are done around here?

 - martin


[1] Other listings magazines are available.
[2] cf. the 'digital tick' specs to which I referred in an earlier message.
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[David Greaves]

Caveat: I'm an amateur in this area who knows a bit because I run a MythTV
system. Be polite if you correct me.

Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at
> 2202-2232
> > then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers.

Doesn't the EPG offer an advance 'target schedule' (as per Radio Times/TV Times
of old) to the nearest 5 minutes and a supplemental 'as broadcast' delivered via
the EIT (or whatever the OTA/OTC technology is).

Maybe an EIT/HTTP gateway would appear to be useful but I don't think it's that
simple.

Should an EPG even include 'as broadcast' information?

I'd say not.

>From a UI point of view I see an EPG as being a coarse grained forward planning
system for use by humans. The EIT can fine-tune a system to interpret an EPG but
not 'change' it.

Say I ask my PVR to record Dr Who on Thursday night at 7pm (1) - if a plane
crashes at Heathrow at 6:30pm and there is live coverage; Dr Who is cancelled.
So when I go and look at the EPG I see Dr Who has gone - what's up with that
then? Am I an idiot? I'm sure it was there...
Actually I still want to see the original EPG data supplemented with broadcast 
data.

A different scenario is that the storyline in a show shows events that are
deemed inappropriate (eg showing 'Airplane' the week of 9/11) so the schedule is
changed a couple of days in advance - the EPG should change and may make mention
in the comments of replacing previously scheduled programmes.

(1) OK, for the record: I actually say 'record Dr Who whenever it's on and just
get one copy of each episode - go sort it out' and watch it when it appears in
my list. That's the benefit of geeky OSS for you though.


> The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact
> start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your
> Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at
> 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying "oh, hey, you know that
> programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds,
> so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start." It's
> how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and
> it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables. 
> 
>  
> "broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes
> anywhere", which is not quite
So they don't publish it - they broadcast it - for free!! Using the same
technology you use to pick up the TV signal. In a well defined manner. The 
buggers!


> Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice
> is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's
> provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a
> service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air
> with DTT.
> 
>  
> That seems quite like trying to have it both ways.
See above - I think there are 2 ways for 2 different things.

> In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC.
Always good.

> I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the
> EPG information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to
> "acknowledge mistakes" and provide  "accuracy" in the data.
The data isn't any more of a mistake than any Gantt chart in existence. It's an
estimate with well bounded error bars (+/- 5 minutes). Surely you don't go back
and lie about the estimates you gave people do you?


> As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or
> DVB-S as an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions.


***WHAT***

So basically: My PVR is too brain-dead to pick up information from a different
software component and would all broadcasters, all over the world stop
broadcasting changes live, over the air with the programmes and move to a
centralised, polled. unicast model so we don't have to change our code?

Although that does sound like Microsoft software "engineers".

Whilst speaking to them wrt a major UK Telco they would often seem to wonder if
we could just change the PSTN to fit the way their instant messenger application
worked...



Can you feel the sympathy? 

David

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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

On 24/01/2008, Martin Deutsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 24, 2008 10:31 AM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> wrote:
> [...]
> > > > *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was
> providing
> > > > poisoned information.  Why should people who have paid for Windows
> Vista
> > > > Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose?
> > >
> > > Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of
> one
> > > particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software?  As Martin describes,
> > > there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and
> if
> > > Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its
> > > software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other
> > > broadcaster for this.
> >
> >
> > The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should.
> >
> > I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at
> 2202-2232
> > then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers.
> >
> > Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it,
> or
> > is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a
> > pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the
> > published EPG for a slightly different time.
> >
> > And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating
> restricted
> > standards to the public.
> >
> The person and the system with the precise schedule are sitting little
> bit up the road in the Broadcast Centre, but that's a moot point.


But it does confirm the rest...


The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact
> start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your
> Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at
> 2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying "oh, hey, you know that
> programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds,
> so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start." It's
> how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and
> it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables.


"broadcasters - don't publish the exact start times of programmes anywhere",
which is not quite

"Accuracy, impartiality ... a willingness to acknowledge mistakes when we
make them: meeting all these expectations simultaneously ... but it is what
the BBC has to do."

That's Mark Thompson, speaking whilst us Backstage people where having an
Unfesitval round the corner...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/aug/24/television.edinburghtvfestival2007


Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice
> is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's
> provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a
> service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air
> with DTT.


That seems quite like trying to have it both ways.


In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC.
> (Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also
> direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV
> Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.)


I'm not trying to BLAME anyone here, I'm trying to find out where the EPG
information gets nobbled and make an attempt to get some to "acknowledge
mistakes" and provide  "accuracy" in the data.

If I can get a signed letter from someone at the BBC saying that it's
Microsoft's fault, then I can go an staple it to the "Memorandum of
Understanding" and get MS to sort it out.

As far as I can tell with the Media Center, the DVB-T reception (or DVB-S as
an alternative) is too abstracted from the PVR functions.  It took quite a
lot of effort to get them to recognise the damn radio stations!


- martin
> -
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Martin Deutsch]

On Jan 24, 2008 10:31 AM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
> > > *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing
> > > poisoned information.  Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista
> > > Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose?
> >
> > Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one
> > particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software?  As Martin describes,
> > there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if
> > Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its
> > software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other
> > broadcaster for this.
>
>
> The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should.
>
> I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232
> then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers.
>
> Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it, or
> is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a
> pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the
> published EPG for a slightly different time.
>
> And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating restricted
> standards to the public.
>
The person and the system with the precise schedule are sitting little
bit up the road in the Broadcast Centre, but that's a moot point.

The BBC - and all the other broadcasters - don't publish the exact
start times of programmes anywhere. As I mentioned, the way your
Freeview box knows that Newsnight has started at 2232 is because at
2232, a flag goes up somewhere saying "oh, hey, you know that
programme that we said was on at 2230? It's starting in a few seconds,
so if you want to record it, now would be a good time to start." It's
how things worked in the damp string days of analogue with PDC, and
it's how it continues to work with DVB Event Information Tables.

Your beef seems to be with the fact that your media player of choice
is using a listings guide that's based on the same information that's
provided to the newspapers for their listings pages, rather than a
service with live-updating cues, such as the one provided over the air
with DTT.

In summary: blame Microsoft, not the BBC.
(Or at least, if you're going to blame the BBC, you may as well also
direct some ire at Red Bee Media, their listings subsiduary BDS, ITV
Network Centre, Channel 4, Sky, etc, etc.)

 - martin
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Steve,

Thanks for replying.

On 24/01/2008, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via
> > Microsoft) with inaccurate information.
>
> If you were to start by assuming that inaccuracies in the EPG data
> provided by the BBC were there for reasons other than to screw over
> Windows Media Center users, you might be more likely to come up with a
> reasonable explanation for the behaviour.


I'm not looking for an explanation of the behaviour.  I know WHY it happens,
it so the BBC can gain a small commercial advantage over it's commercial
competitors.  I'm just musing that the provision of EPG data appears to be
inaccurate, which is hardly in keeping with the BBC's new found hair-shirted
honesty.


> *I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing
> > poisoned information.  Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista
> > Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose?
>
> Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one
> particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software?  As Martin describes,
> there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if
> Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its
> software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other
> broadcaster for this.


The BBC should not CHANGE the schedule, and I am not saying it should.

I am saying that if the BBC knows that a programme is scheduled at 2202-2232
then it should deliver that data correctly to the EPG providers.

Somewhere inside the TVC is a computer system that has some code in it, or
is operated by a person, who programmes in the automatic play out of a
pre-recorded programme for a time slot which is translated into the
published EPG for a slightly different time.

And I am sure everyone knows how I feel about the BBC dictating restricted
standards to the public.

Given how much you know about broadcasting, I am certain that you are
> aware of the conceptual and practical differences between programme
> schedules published a week or more in advance, and actual playout times,
> which can vary considerably, especially (but by no means exclusively) if
> live events overrun.  I don't know much about Digiguide, but it seems
> probable to me that they are only providing you with the former
> information.  Again, I find it hard to understand how the BBC is to
> blame for this.


I'm just asking for accurate information to be published.  If it's wrong to
say that the Queen stormed out in a Huff, then it's wrong to provide
imprecise schedules to people's computers, set-top boxes and PVRs, surely?

(As I recall the Gypsy Media people just automatically pass on the BBC's
schedules, and WMC updates them live.)

The reason I asked here is that Microsoft say they data comes from Gypsy
Media, and then they say it's from the BBC.

But yes, you are right, I did have a hand in designing the computerised
schedule system the ITV companies used from 1993 onwards so I do understand
how it all works in practice.

So I bet that the reason I'm the only person in the whole of the UK who
notices these minor schedule errors, and that will teach me to sync all my
clocks to the MSF from Rugby.

Perhaps it's having the mathematical difference between "precision" and
"accuracy" beaten into me at school?

S
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Steve Jolly]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via 
Microsoft) with inaccurate information. 


If you were to start by assuming that inaccuracies in the EPG data 
provided by the BBC were there for reasons other than to screw over 
Windows Media Center users, you might be more likely to come up with a 
reasonable explanation for the behaviour.


*I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing 
poisoned information.  Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista 
Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose?


Why should the BBC optimise its schedule services for the benefit of one 
particular manufacturer of DTT viewing software?  As Martin describes, 
there are standard ways of accurately timing recordings from DTT, and if 
Microsoft doesn't choose to make them available to users of its 
software, I don't think it's reasonable to blame the BBC or any other 
broadcaster for this.


Given how much you know about broadcasting, I am certain that you are 
aware of the conceptual and practical differences between programme 
schedules published a week or more in advance, and actual playout times, 
which can vary considerably, especially (but by no means exclusively) if 
live events overrun.  I don't know much about Digiguide, but it seems 
probable to me that they are only providing you with the former 
information.  Again, I find it hard to understand how the BBC is to 
blame for this.


S
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

Martin,

Thanks very much for the reply.


On 23/01/2008, Martin Deutsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A small question.
> >
> > There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER
> as
> > published!
> >
> > A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO.  Programmes in this
> slot
> > actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm,
> with
> > Newsnight starting at 10:33pm.
> [...]
> > I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough,
> but
> > if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get
> an
> > overrun from the previous programme and miss the end.
> >
> > Can something be done with the source data to fix this?
>
> To answer your question, something is already being done.
>
> - For major networks in the UK, the Present/Following information in
> the SI tables should roll over just before the actual programme start
> time. In some cases this is triggered directly from the playout
> system. Keep an eye on when Newsnight is on 'now' on a Freeview box to
> see this in action.


I had noticed that this happens on all Freeview boxes.  It used to be a
nightmare before at program junctions as the NOW and NEXT would become the
same.


- A "decent PVR" should pay attention to this, and record the
> entirety of the event - ie from when it becomes the 'present' event,
> to when it's no longer running. To get a 'digital tick', recievers
> should adhere to http://www.dtg.org.uk/testing/conformance.html , and
> the document "UK Digital TV Receiver Recommendations", which states
> this. (An event can actually be 'paused', for example, during a
> commercial break, but I think it's pretty obvious why none of the
> broadcasters would want to do this.)


I'm using the Windows Vista Ultimate Media Center, which is the best PVR I
have ever used.  A Sky HD box seems like a ZX Spectrum by comparision.  It's
connected to the TV using DVI and I've got a terrabyte to store stuff on.

But, as it a Microsoft product, it's only the Haupagge card that is
approved.  The EPG is fed from the Digiguide people, who have a feed
directly from the BBC.

The Microsoft system relys on the EPG, but it can do brilliant tricks when
you need to resole a clash (there is a limit of two decoders) like spot
other showing of the same epsiode, and you can set "series priorites".
Additionly it remembers your "series records" and automatically picks up the
same one next season.


- However, on Sky, the accurate EIT P/F is not carried across
> multiplexes, so your Sky+ box may just record from the billed start
> time. It should record all the way to the end, though - so with the
> 10pm programme, you may get a few minutes of the preceding programme,
> but it should continue to record until 10.32pm, when the next event
> starts.


Sky+ boxes have an automatic facility that records an extra few minutes if
it can too.


The second-accurate schedules of programmes could be considered to be
> commercially sensitive, so the broadcasters aren't so keen on
> publishing them in advance (for example, a broadcaster wouldn't want a
> competitor knowing about stunts where one programme will start a
> little early, or follow directly on from the previous with no
> commercial break, in order to stop viewers switching over to the big
> new show on the other side).


It's hardly a secret about these junctions, they happen every single day and
they can be seen on the live BARB graphs.

It seems incredible to me that the BBC is DELIBERATELY providing me (via
Microsoft) with inaccurate information.


If your PVR hasn't quite caught up with these developments though, you
> could perhaps try what Jason's suggested and add a couple of minutes
> either side.


*I* know I can do this, I just wanted to know why the BBC was providing
poisoned information.  Why should people who have paid for Windows Vista
Ultimate Edition have a poor service on purpose?


Hope this helps,
>
> - martin
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

I can do that too, but it's not really "user friendly" in the traditional
sense.

On 23/01/2008, Jason Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> My cheapo Freeview PVR has an option to record a number of minutes either
> side of a programme. That works for me.
>
> J
>
> --
> Jason Cartwright
> Web Specialist, EMEA Marketing
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> +44(0)2070313161
>
> On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > A small question.
> >
> > There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER
> > as published!
> >
> > A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO.  Programmes in this
> > slot actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm,
> > with Newsnight starting at 10:33pm.
> >
> > The schedule is shown in the newspapers, on the BBC site, and (most
> > importantly) fed to EPG (ie, Sky's and the one used by Windows Media Center)
> > always says 10pm-10:30pm for whatever programme is on.
> >
> > Obviously the late start is because people often watch the news
> > headlines on BBC ONE and then turn over to 'TWO for some entertainment, thus
> > the delayed start.
> >
> > Also, the junction between the end of the regional news on BBC ONE
> > matches the start of Newsnight, which also makes sense.
> >
> > I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough,
> > but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get
> > an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end.
> >
> > Can something be done with the source data to fix this?
> >
>


-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

Brian Butterworth
http://www.ukfree.tv

Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Martin Deutsch]

On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A small question.
>
> There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as
> published!
>
> A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO.  Programmes in this slot
> actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with
> Newsnight starting at 10:33pm.
[...]
> I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but
> if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an
> overrun from the previous programme and miss the end.
>
> Can something be done with the source data to fix this?

To answer your question, something is already being done.

 - For major networks in the UK, the Present/Following information in
the SI tables should roll over just before the actual programme start
time. In some cases this is triggered directly from the playout
system. Keep an eye on when Newsnight is on 'now' on a Freeview box to
see this in action.

 - A "decent PVR" should pay attention to this, and record the
entirety of the event - ie from when it becomes the 'present' event,
to when it's no longer running. To get a 'digital tick', recievers
should adhere to http://www.dtg.org.uk/testing/conformance.html , and
the document "UK Digital TV Receiver Recommendations", which states
this. (An event can actually be 'paused', for example, during a
commercial break, but I think it's pretty obvious why none of the
broadcasters would want to do this.)

 - However, on Sky, the accurate EIT P/F is not carried across
multiplexes, so your Sky+ box may just record from the billed start
time. It should record all the way to the end, though - so with the
10pm programme, you may get a few minutes of the preceding programme,
but it should continue to record until 10.32pm, when the next event
starts.

The second-accurate schedules of programmes could be considered to be
commercially sensitive, so the broadcasters aren't so keen on
publishing them in advance (for example, a broadcaster wouldn't want a
competitor knowing about stunts where one programme will start a
little early, or follow directly on from the previous with no
commercial break, in order to stop viewers switching over to the big
new show on the other side).
If your PVR hasn't quite caught up with these developments though, you
could perhaps try what Jason's suggested and add a couple of minutes
either side.

Hope this helps,

 - martin
-
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Re: [backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Jason Cartwright]

My cheapo Freeview PVR has an option to record a number of minutes either
side of a programme. That works for me.

J

-- 
Jason Cartwright
Web Specialist, EMEA Marketing
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
+44(0)2070313161

On Jan 22, 2008 1:59 PM, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> A small question.
>
> There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as
> published!
>
> A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO.  Programmes in this slot
> actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with
> Newsnight starting at 10:33pm.
>
> The schedule is shown in the newspapers, on the BBC site, and (most
> importantly) fed to EPG (ie, Sky's and the one used by Windows Media Center)
> always says 10pm-10:30pm for whatever programme is on.
>
> Obviously the late start is because people often watch the news headlines
> on BBC ONE and then turn over to 'TWO for some entertainment, thus the
> delayed start.
>
> Also, the junction between the end of the regional news on BBC ONE matches
> the start of Newsnight, which also makes sense.
>
> I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough,
> but if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get
> an overrun from the previous programme and miss the end.
>
> Can something be done with the source data to fix this?
>

[backstage] BBC TWO Programme timings

[Brian Butterworth]

A small question.

There are a number of occasions where the schedule on channels is NEVER as
published!

A good example the 10pm-10:30pm slot on BBC TWO.  Programmes in this slot
actually start never earlier than 10:02pm and usually end at 10:32pm, with
Newsnight starting at 10:33pm.

The schedule is shown in the newspapers, on the BBC site, and (most
importantly) fed to EPG (ie, Sky's and the one used by Windows Media Center)
always says 10pm-10:30pm for whatever programme is on.

Obviously the late start is because people often watch the news headlines on
BBC ONE and then turn over to 'TWO for some entertainment, thus the delayed
start.

Also, the junction between the end of the regional news on BBC ONE matches
the start of Newsnight, which also makes sense.

I can understand for humans using the EPG, 10pm-10:30pm is good enough, but
if you PVR anything (Sky+, Freeview Playback, WMC) in this slot you get an
overrun from the previous programme and miss the end.

Can something be done with the source data to fix this?