Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Iain Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Confusing how?
I am confused to where a lot of the URLs actually come from.
It would be helpful if someone said where all these many URLs came
from instead of just saying use this URL.
I haven't read PHP for a *long* time (several years since I last used
it, and even then I was a beginner).
Can you confirm the following steps (based on your PHP code):
1. Obtain PID from page URL (8 digits prior to the file extension).
2. Fetch: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/PID_HERE.shtml
3. Scan for pids
4. Fetch: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaselector/3/stream/check/iplayer?pid=PID_HERE
and parse XML for tags token, identifier, and server
5. Fetch: http://SERVER_HERE/fcs/ident and parse XML for tag ip
6. Perform RTMP on:
rtmp://IP_HERE:1935/ondemand?_fcs_vhost=SERVER_HEREauth=TOKEN_HEREaifp=v001slist=IDENTIFIER_HERE
1935 is defined by IANA as:
macromedia-fcs 1935/tcpMacromedia Flash Communications Server MX
macromedia-fcs 1935/udpMacromedia Flash Communications server MX
From: http://www.iana.org/assignments/port-numbers
Do we have a list of applications and versions known to support RTMP?
The flash iPlayer itself does most of the logic, which can
be read easily with any number of freely available flash decompilers.
You mean it is necessary to reverse engineer the binary flash file?
And I thought the BBC said that reverse engineering was almost impossible.
And now a worked example (so I can see if I understand right).
This is on The vicar of dibley (it was on the front page and I am that lazy).
URL from address bar:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/page/item/b007cjrb.shtml
PID: b007cjrb (anyone think James Bond when seeing that ID?)
View Source:
iplayer.host = www.bbc.co.uk;
iplayer.flash_debug = false;
iplayer.prog = The Vicar of Dibley;
iplayer.guidance = ;
iplayer.pid = 'b007cjrb';
iplayer.versions = [
{
type : 'Original',
pid : 'b006py02',
download : [
{ start : new Date(2008, 0, 09, 22, 01, 00),
end : new Date(2008, 0, 16, 21, 59, 00)}
],
streaming : [
{ start : new Date(2008, 0, 09, 22, 01, 00),
end : new Date(2008, 0, 16, 21, 59, 00)}
],
filesize : '600Mb'
}
];
I see two PIDs the original one b007cjrb and the one from versions: b006py02
I am guessing I use the second one?
Also note the dates it is available from and the filesize.
Is there always just one version Original or is there an occasion
where there are different versions? It should be possible to interpret
most of the without needing a full HTML and Javascript parser,
provided the BBC don't change it too much.
Request:
GET /mediaselector/3/stream/check/iplayer?pid=b006py02 HTTP/1.1
HOST: www.bbc.co.uk
Response:
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
stream version=0.1
servercp41752.edgefcs.net/server
identifiersecure/b0006py02-streaming68309978/identifier
subtitleUrl/subtitleUrl
tokendaEcncIbfdxcWd6a1a4dVcqdRbIb6aUbHae-bhHZU_-cCp-EppEFqzpNEvEqwI/token
/stream
Request:
GET /mediaselector/3/stream/check/iplayer?pid=b007cjrb HTTP/1.1
HOST: www.bbc.co.uk
Response:
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
stream version=0.1
error id=notavailable/
/stream
From this we can see that the stream can return either the
server,identifier,subtitleURL,token combination or an error ID.
Helpful if you want to find out which versions can and can't be used.
Not sure how to use subtitle (none provided for this clip anyway)
Select the PID b006py02 as it's the only available one (I think we
should only be using IDs from the version array anyway).
Set server,identifier,subtitleURL,token accordingly.
Fetch the IP from http://cp41752.edgefcs.net/fcs/ident
Request:
GET /fcs/ident HTTP/1.1
HOST: cp41752.edgefcs.net
Response:
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8 ?
fcsip217.243.192.45/ip/fcs
Set IP address to 217.243.192.45
Request:
rtmp://217.243.192.45:1935/ondemand?_fcs_vhost=cp41752.edgefcs.netauth=daEcncIbfdxcWd6a1a4dVcqdRbIb6aUbHae-bhHZU_-cCp-EppEFqzpNEvEqwIaifp=v001slist=secure/b0006py02-streaming68309978
wget complains unsupported scheme.
mPlayer also fails.
Of course I can't check that URL is correct without an RTMP client of some sort.
Of course this may break as soon as the BBC changes anything.
Formal definitions for the XML would be helpful.
What error conditions occur? Why do they occur? What tags are used?
How does subtitleURL work?
Andy
--
Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows.
-- Adam Heath
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RE: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Ashley Highfield's post seems relevant to this discussion http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/01/ip_to_tv_how.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Jolly Sent: 09 January 2008 12:54 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. I believe Ian said that there's a proper API coming, which sounds to me like a more elegant solution than serving lots of redundant comments to every iPlayer user. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Is there any intention within the BBC to put us out of our misery, and status as potential law breakers, to provide a server full of streamed content, complete TV programmes, that we can access legally worldwide through the internet? I suggest that if Mr Highfield's associate is breaking the law, then either he is one of many, in which case the horse has bolted.. or we need to make an example of him, and any further accessories to the crime. :-( The BBC is heading in to a very problematic area, where if they manage to keep the creators sweet, they risk losing control of their distribution system. and the support of the customer. I know that this is over simplified, but everyone now is aware of the direction that this is all taking. MS, Apple, and Amazon are all examples of World-wide networking businesses. Please can the BBC arrange a department that considers and delivers a product for the world through the internet? No more DRM, no GeoIP, no using content scraped from other web-sites, without an open and sincere contribution to the world at large. I'll happily pay a yearly subscription. I believe that if you try this route, then you will beat the pirates to it, and truly contribute to the future if you decide not to, then the model of the Music business since 1994 is your future, which would be saddening indeed. Regards RichE On 11 Jan 2008, at 11:06, Nick Reynolds-AMi wrote: Ashley Highfield's post seems relevant to this discussion http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/01/ip_to_tv_how.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Jolly Sent: 09 January 2008 12:54 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. I believe Ian said that there's a proper API coming, which sounds to me like a more elegant solution than serving lots of redundant comments to every iPlayer user. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/ mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail- archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On Fri Jan 11 10:23:14 UTC 2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see two PIDs the original one b007cjrb and the one from versions: b006py02 I am guessing I use the second one? Correct. Episodes are conceptual and are not broadcast directly. They can have many versions and it is these versions which are broadcast and have ondemand availability. Is there always just one version Original or is there an occasion where there are different versions? Every episode should have a version of type Original, but there are other types and a version can have more than one type. The full list of version types is: +-+---+ | version_type_id | name | +-+---+ | AudioDescribed | Audio description | | Lengthened | Lengthened| | OpenSubtitled | Open subtitles| | Original| Original version | | Other | Other | | Shortened | Shortened | | Signed | Sign language | | WarningsHigher | Stronger content warnings | | WarningsLower | Milder content warnings | | WarningsNone| No content warnings | +-+---+ To give you an idea, the following version types have been used at least once: +-+ | version_type_id | +-+ | AudioDescribed | | Lengthened | | Original| | Other | | Shortened | | Signed | +-+ Cheers Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Iain Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: B. The iPlayer should stream over an open, not a proprietary protocol Getting the Gnash RTMP library into mplayer and libcurl ought to solve this from the software freedom community side. Gnash seems to be the most serious and immediate project to write an RTMP library, but perhaps over time others will write them. Gnash is GPLv3 too, which ought to help projects like XBMC get with the programme and start sorting out how to upgrade :-) -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 06/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this list (and this thread in particular) is precisely because we -do- want people knowing how as much of this works as possible: Them tell me how it works! The HTML looks like it was designed to be hard to read, was this the case? On many other sites all you have to do is view source, Ctrl-F, .flv and you find the URL needed for the stream. The BBC version is split across multiple config files loaded through large amounts of badly formatted javascript (including one long section that has had all the line breaks removed!) I tried the XBox forums but it was rather confusing. Someone at the BBC wrote this webpage yes? Did they document their work, if not is the BBC going to have maintenance problems if the guy quits? If so then if the BBC really wants people to know how this stuff works gives us a public URL to the document. And while your at it the documents for the protocols (both the streaming version and download version) would be extremely helpful. The RTMP link provided appears to be based on reverse engineering and guess work. Documentation of the actual protocol the BBC is using would be preferable, so hand that over. Apart from the actual HTML itself how much documentation has the BBC itself released to help us? None as far as I can see. Why? Why force us to read through pages of HTML and script? Why not just put the URLs in an XML file and gives us the address? Forcing people to screen scrape proves the BBC does not really care about getting iPlayer working. Screen scraping is extremely fragile. Changes in the page can cause huge problems. The fact the HTML/Javascript code was put through obfuscation techniques also proves the BBC isn't trying to help. If you are helping why did you obfuscate code? I admire your negativity towards everything posted here, but do cut us some slack: I am only negative when the BBC's actions are negative. Here's a suggestion: Stop putting barriers in peoples way. Stop obfuscating code. Stop using protocols that are known only to one entity who says no embedded use Start releasing some real documentation. we're trying to help as much as we can. I have told you some of the details that would help me, and probably others. Instead of actually helping you have decided to force people to resort to reverse engineering. I think the biggest thing people want is you NOT TO USE RTMP. It's a major pain to get working if you can't use Adobe Flash and if you read the EULA there are lots of cases when you can't. While your helping get a Linux download version released, including source code. Many of these exotic devices can have Linux run on them, so you could have a full iPlayer on them if the BBC DID THEIR JOB RIGHT. If you want to bash the BBC, I will congratulate the BBC when it does something right. Sadly I am still waiting. If you take public money the public has the right to criticise you. In non-publicly funded companies if the customer is paying for something then you can't just tell them get lost and build something that's not what they want. Oddly that's what the BBC has done. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. It is usually taken out by a build script to save bandwidth - the same reason as why the javascript is badly formatted and obfuscate, it'll probably be packed or minified. J On Jan 9, 2008 9:42 AM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this list (and this thread in particular) is precisely because we -do- want people knowing how as much of this works as possible: Them tell me how it works! The HTML looks like it was designed to be hard to read, was this the case? On many other sites all you have to do is view source, Ctrl-F, .flv and you find the URL needed for the stream. The BBC version is split across multiple config files loaded through large amounts of badly formatted javascript (including one long section that has had all the line breaks removed!) I tried the XBox forums but it was rather confusing. Someone at the BBC wrote this webpage yes? Did they document their work, if not is the BBC going to have maintenance problems if the guy quits? If so then if the BBC really wants people to know how this stuff works gives us a public URL to the document. And while your at it the documents for the protocols (both the streaming version and download version) would be extremely helpful. The RTMP link provided appears to be based on reverse engineering and guess work. Documentation of the actual protocol the BBC is using would be preferable, so hand that over. Apart from the actual HTML itself how much documentation has the BBC itself released to help us? None as far as I can see. Why? Why force us to read through pages of HTML and script? Why not just put the URLs in an XML file and gives us the address? Forcing people to screen scrape proves the BBC does not really care about getting iPlayer working. Screen scraping is extremely fragile. Changes in the page can cause huge problems. The fact the HTML/Javascript code was put through obfuscation techniques also proves the BBC isn't trying to help. If you are helping why did you obfuscate code? I admire your negativity towards everything posted here, but do cut us some slack: I am only negative when the BBC's actions are negative. Here's a suggestion: Stop putting barriers in peoples way. Stop obfuscating code. Stop using protocols that are known only to one entity who says no embedded use Start releasing some real documentation. we're trying to help as much as we can. I have told you some of the details that would help me, and probably others. Instead of actually helping you have decided to force people to resort to reverse engineering. I think the biggest thing people want is you NOT TO USE RTMP. It's a major pain to get working if you can't use Adobe Flash and if you read the EULA there are lots of cases when you can't. While your helping get a Linux download version released, including source code. Many of these exotic devices can have Linux run on them, so you could have a full iPlayer on them if the BBC DID THEIR JOB RIGHT. If you want to bash the BBC, I will congratulate the BBC when it does something right. Sadly I am still waiting. If you take public money the public has the right to criticise you. In non-publicly funded companies if the customer is paying for something then you can't just tell them get lost and build something that's not what they want. Oddly that's what the BBC has done. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On many other sites all you have to do is view source, Ctrl-F, .flv and you find the URL needed for the stream. ... I think the biggest thing people want is you NOT TO USE RTMP. The BBC is using the latest Flash technology - Flash Media Server - which neccessitates RTMP, and all the other sites that use HTTP as you describe are using an old deprecated way of doing things. Expect them to migrate to RTMP this year, especially when Cygnus, the Gnash Media Server, kicks its tires off; who can see Gootube having plenty of fun with a free software solution for streaming Flash video, hmm? :-) By using RTMP and putting Gnash through its paces, the BBC is spurring on myself and others to try raising developer time and funds to raise Gnash's game sooner rather than later. I wrote earlier this week at length about why I think the BBC should be directly involved in developing (or funding the development of) Gnash. Who knows what will happen? Although I appreciate your frustration in the short term, I think this situation is better and more sustainable in the long term, While your helping get a Linux download version released, including source code. As I understand it, the BBC has agreed to accept DRM on download versions of iPlayer. So I would rather they scrapped the download version completely! I wonder what the radio of download:streaming users is? Hopefully it is so much imbalanced towards streaming (since its more convenient, despite the slightly lower image quality) that the BBC will find a business reason - like the cost of support and maintanance, and the ongoing bad publicity about the DRM - to scrap it. Also, since you care about software freedom, please consider calling the OS GNU+Linux - http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/linux-gnu-freedom.html explains how doing so helps the software freedom movement :-) -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Jason Cartwright wrote: the same reason as why the javascript is badly formatted and obfuscate, it'll probably be packed or minified. I wish BBC news did that for their HTML; simply stripping the whitespace and nothing else shrinks the BBC news front page by *a third*! Quite a bandwidth saving for them, surely... ATB, Matthew | http://www.dracos.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. I believe Ian said that there's a proper API coming, which sounds to me like a more elegant solution than serving lots of redundant comments to every iPlayer user. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. I believe Ian said that there's a proper API coming, which sounds to me like a more elegant solution than serving lots of redundant comments to every iPlayer user. +1 :-) -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
An API would be good, one could request a stream ID based on program, or perhaps just a category, similar to an RSS feed based on program genre or series. So my webapp could automatically list the latest 5 top gear episodes for my fan site, with little programming or knowledge of program IDs. An API could open this up to more PC based programmers, but I don't think it will initially help exotic devices, as there's the problem of getting the video to render on the devices. A lot of flashplayers installed on small devices aren't up to date enough - and then there's the EULA problem... Interesting to read what you guys are saying about it. On Jan 9, 2008 12:53 PM, Steve Jolly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. I believe Ian said that there's a proper API coming, which sounds to me like a more elegant solution than serving lots of redundant comments to every iPlayer user. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
I disagree. Using gigs and gigs of bandwidth needlessly and making an app run slower for millions of people, just so a few developers can hack around with it? Much better to release an API and sample source code separately. Example... Built for users: http://maps.google.com Built for developers: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/ J On Jan 9, 2008 12:13 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree. ... Much better to release an API and sample source code separately. I look forward to the BBC releasing an API and sample source code separately :-) -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Good idea, streamline and optimise for the end user, be abundant with information for the developer. That way it would increase reliability for the end user too, as the live production code is less likely to change/have errors introduced, whereas if the developer code goes a little wrong, it's not as big a problem. On Jan 9, 2008 2:26 PM, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I disagree. Using gigs and gigs of bandwidth needlessly and making an app run slower for millions of people, just so a few developers can hack around with it? Much better to release an API and sample source code separately. Example... Built for users: http://maps.google.com Built for developers: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/ J On Jan 9, 2008 12:13 PM, Dave Crossland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/01/2008, Jason Cartwright [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Production client-side code really shouldn't have documentation in. If the BBC is serious about supporting innovation around the iPlayer, it ought to leave it in here. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On Jan 9, 2008 9:42 AM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this list (and this thread in particular) is precisely because we -do- want people knowing how as much of this works as possible: Them tell me how it works! The HTML looks like it was designed to be hard to read, was this the case? On many other sites all you have to do is view source, Ctrl-F, .flv and you find the URL needed for the stream. The BBC version is split across multiple config files loaded through large amounts of badly formatted javascript (including one long section that has had all the line breaks removed!) I tried the XBox forums but it was rather confusing. Confusing how? I don't believe this email made it to the list first time round: I posted in that thread as Strawp. I wrote the proof of concept script to get the RTMP URL from a programme ID. Here is the exact post: http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showpost.php?p=162482postcount=70 I worked this out with help from people on there (and here) like Phil Wilson and from the flash player. I'm a developer myself and what I saw on the iPlayer page to get the URL is not what I would consider obfuscated. Sites like RapidShare do obfuscation - this is just quite heavy duty - as it should be, but I didn't see anything on there which looked like a deliberate attempt to make it hard to read. There is a small amount of javascript on the page and some flash variables which set up the flash player and that's it. The flash iPlayer itself does most of the logic, which can be read easily with any number of freely available flash decompilers. I agree that: A. There should be an API for the iPlayer B. The iPlayer should stream over an open, not a proprietary protocol However, this is pretty new still and at this stage there's going to be a lot of pretty frustrating hacking around and ideas from all corners. I think the BBC people in this thread are trying to do the right thing, it just takes a while - as anyone who's ever worked for a large organisation can attest. Iain - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On Sat, 2008-01-05 at 16:39 +, Andy wrote: Any links to the specification for RTMP all the usual places I find protocol specs have turned up no results. http://wiki.gnashdev.org/wiki/index.php/RTMP http://osflash.org/documentation/rtmp See also http://osdir.com/ml/gnu.gnash.devel2/2006-11/msg00278.html I'd love to get an iPlayer activity working on the OLPC XO. -- dwmw2 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 06/01/2008, David Woodhouse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd love to get an iPlayer activity working on the OLPC XO. Indeed - mine is arriving this week :-) Shame about the GeoIP restriction, eh? -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 06/01/2008, James Cridland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 4, 2008 4:59 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Adobe Flash is prohibited on non-PC systems, is the BBC suggesting we violate Adobe's EULA or just not use the streaming version? Andy, I'm awfully confused. I believe Andy is referring to the Flash EULA's infamous section 3.1: 3.1 Web Player Prohibited Devices. You may not Use any Web Player on any non-PC device or with any embedded or device version of any operating system. For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, you may not use a Web Player on any (a) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs that are not running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, game consoles, TVs, DVD players, media centers (excluding Windows XP Media Center Edition and its successors), electronic billboards or other digital signage, internet appliances or other internet-connected devices, PDAs, medical devices, ATMs, telematic devices, gaming machines, home automation systems, kiosks, remote control devices, or any other consumer electronics device, (b) operator-based mobile, cable, satellite, or television systems or (c) other closed system devices. - http://www.adobe.com/products/eulas/players/flash/ Flash plays on a Wii (albeit not the iPlayer video content, since the codec used isn't in that version), on mobile phones (from Nokia to Windoze phones but not the iPhone yet), I think it's also on the PSP as well. The hardware vendors have paid Adobe large license fees to include a Flash runtime on those devices; you aren't allowed to install a different Adobe Flash runtime if someone like yourself who would like to do so, could technically do it. (Oh, and naturally it's available on the Mac and Linux). Only sometimes. You ought to read the legally binding contract for the software you choose to install. If you are running GNU+Linux on anything unlike a normal desktop PC - Xebian on an Xbox, or a eeePC hand held - or if you have a tablet PC and you are not running Windows XP Tablet Edition, you are breaking that legally binding contract. In any case, you ought to never install it anyway, because you can't share copies with friends and you have to give up your freedom to have someone improve it. Apart form the BBCs we hate people knowing how this works attitude I see no reason why it can't be done. Although others have also said this: this list (and this thread in particular) is precisely because we -do- want people knowing how as much of this works as possible: the Backstage team battle through some quite difficult beaurocracy to enable this to happen. And they ought to be congratulated at every opportunity for doing great work! :-) I admire your negativity towards everything posted here, but do cut us some slack: we're trying to help as much as we can. If you want to bash the BBC, please do just drop me an email and let's keep that stuff off-list. Bashing the BBC without merit is senseless, but where the BBC acts poorly, it ought to be criticised - just like anyone else. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only, not the views of any employers past or present.) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
But I can't find it *anywhere* in the iPlayer HTML or Javascript. Can't find it in the XML either. Is it hidden in the actual flash object itself? I don't remember the details offhand, but these bits of information *are* all available in the pages/html/JavaScript/config files. I am a little wary of hardcoding in an IP. What if the BBC decide they need to switch some machines round and the IP changes? The IP is defined in a config file. All of this is documented in that xboxmediacenter.com forum which Ian posted a link to earlier (in fact the starting post of this thread I think), including an executable PHP script for generating the URL for the RTMP stream. Cheers, Phil Wilson - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Dave Crossland wrote: On 06/01/2008, David Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's not that hard to get iPlayer content on the Xbox. Once Linux (e.g. Xebian) is installed then essentially the Xbox is just another Linux x86 machine. Install IceWeasel/Firefox and the Flash plugin and iPlayer works fine. This would be unethical (since the Adobe flash plugin in not shareable or modifiable) and it breaks the Flash EULA section 3.1. Unethical in what way? There's a question about whether this complies with EULA section 3.1 but I would maintain that an Xbox running Linux is a PC and not a games console especially when all the games-related stuff has been removed. I wasn't suggesting porting anything to the original XBox operating system or modifying the plugin in any way, merely pointing out that it was possible to run iPlayer on the Xbox hardware. Certainly an open source solution that avoids these uncertainties is a better answer. Regards, David. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 06/01/2008, David Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: On 06/01/2008, David Matthews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well it's not that hard to get iPlayer content on the Xbox. Once Linux (e.g. Xebian) is installed then essentially the Xbox is just another Linux x86 machine. Install IceWeasel/Firefox and the Flash plugin and iPlayer works fine. This would be unethical (since the Adobe flash plugin in not shareable or modifiable) and it breaks the Flash EULA section 3.1. Unethical in what way? There's a question about whether this complies with EULA section 3.1 but I would maintain that an Xbox running Linux is a PC and not a games console especially when all the games-related stuff has been removed. I wasn't suggesting porting anything to the original XBox operating system or modifying the plugin in any way, merely pointing out that it was possible to run iPlayer on the Xbox hardware. Its technically possible, but it breaks the EULA contract, and if this contract is valid, it is illegal. But, it might not be legally binding, and in that case you just break an agreement, which isn't a big deal, but it is slightly unethical to backstab like that. Section 3.1 says: For the avoidance of doubt, and by example only, you may not use a Web Player on any (a) mobile devices, set top boxes (STB), handhelds, phones, web pads, tablets and Tablet PCs that are not running Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, game consoles, The Xbox hardware is sold as a game console and your modification to its software does not change that. Supposing that it does, you now have a computer with its primary display being a television, which makes it a set top box. Either way, you would agree not to use the Adobe Flash player in this way if you used it, and to break an agreement is obviously not ethical. Using any propriety software is not ethical though, because you give up your own freedom to use, study, share and improve the software. Where this effects other people, it is unethical; mainly, if you cannot share it with a friend, you betray your friends; also, you suggest to them that they ought to give up their freedom, which is a kind of indirect ethical pollution. Certainly an open source solution that avoids these uncertainties is a better answer. For sure! Thanks for taking time to discuss this with me, -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of this is documented in that xboxmediacenter.com forum which Ian posted a link to earlier (in fact the starting post of this thread I think), including an executable PHP script for generating the URL for the RTMP stream. Thanks Phil I was going to say the same :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 06/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So a little secret which can be revealed for 2008 (I meant to do a email about this and other things over xmas). We have setup a IRC server so we can have text talks with you guys and us in the future. Its not quite ready but I'm hoping to start using more things like IRC, Jabber, Skypecasts, Secondlife, etc to include even more of you no matter where you are. Nice! :-) IRC ought to have a logbot (http://moritz.faui2k3.org/en/ilbot is a perl one, example at http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2008-01-06 :-) so the discussions are indexed by search engines and hopefully available via RSS too for lurkers. This doesn't replace face to face but there would be some value in a follow up meeting being done over skypecast and face to face, with video for archiving. Please don't refer to VoIP conference calls as Skypecasts; Astertisk is more than capable of doing conference calls - eg http://wiki.eclipse.org/Asterisk_Conference_Calls - and you shouldn't endorse and recommend proprietary and unreliable Skype. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 05/01/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So could someone at the BBC write up a short doc explain what is going on? I think that's the point of the meeting that Ian invited the public developer community to; I hope you'll go :-) -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only, not the views of any employers past or present) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Sorry to reply to my own post. Everyone appears to be using a url of the form: rtmp://217.243.192.52:1935/ondemand?_fcs_vhost=cp41752.edgefcs.netauth=SECRET_KEYaifp=v001slist=STREAM_NAME But I can't find it *anywhere* in the iPlayer HTML or Javascript. Can't find it in the XML either. Is it hidden in the actual flash object itself? I am a little wary of hardcoding in an IP. What if the BBC decide they need to switch some machines round and the IP changes? Also would it be possible to turn On indexing in /iplayer/ particularly /iplayer/metafiles so we can see what data is actually in there? Thanks -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Any piece of software which can talk RTMP and play FLV files can use iPlayer. So long it will run that software, the hardware is irrelevant. Only if you can find the RTMP URL and the FLV file, and that appears to be non-trivial. I have a copy of one of the iPlayer pages open right now and I can't for the life of me find the actual URL to attempt to fetch the FLV using RTMP. Is it not possible to just put the RTMP URL on the page somewhere (even if it's in a comment) to make screen scraping that bit easier. I didn't release iPlayers FLV would play in other software, I knew it didn't work on Gnash so assumed that there was something in iPlayers encoding that was Adobe only, I may well be wrong. An explanation of how the streaming player actually works would be extremely helpful. For instance which of these many bits of Javascript is loading the Flash? (Why is it done via Javascript anyway?) So could someone at the BBC write up a short doc explain what is going on? RTMP is just a socket-based protocol so clients can be written in any language. Any links to the specification for RTMP all the usual places I find protocol specs have turned up no results. Oh and when I was talking about download protocol I was referring to the download version of iPlayer not the streaming version as the download it higher quality. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Andy wrote: Sorry to reply to my own post. Everyone appears to be using a url of the form: rtmp://217.243.192.52:1935/ondemand?_fcs_vhost=cp41752.edgefcs.netauth=SECRET_KEYaifp=v001slist=STREAM_NAME But I can't find it *anywhere* in the iPlayer HTML or Javascript. Can't find it in the XML either. Is it hidden in the actual flash object itself? I am a little wary of hardcoding in an IP. What if the BBC decide they need to switch some machines round and the IP changes? Also would it be possible to turn On indexing in /iplayer/ particularly /iplayer/metafiles so we can see what data is actually in there Firebug is great for tasks like this. The following seems to return an ip, so perhaps it is the method Akamai use for determining the nearest server for streaming the videos. http://cp41752.edgefcs.net/fcs/ident Adam - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On Jan 4, 2008 4:59 PM, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Quick questions: Adobe Flash is prohibited on non-PC systems, is the BBC suggesting we violate Adobe's EULA or just not use the streaming version? Andy, I'm awfully confused. Flash plays on a Wii (albeit not the iPlayer video content, since the codec used isn't in that version), on mobile phones (from Nokia to Windoze phones but not the iPhone yet), I think it's also on the PSP as well. (Oh, and naturally it's available on the Mac and Linux). Apart form the BBCs we hate people knowing how this works attitude I see no reason why it can't be done. Although others have also said this: this list (and this thread in particular) is precisely because we -do- want people knowing how as much of this works as possible: the Backstage team battle through some quite difficult beaurocracy to enable this to happen. I admire your negativity towards everything posted here, but do cut us some slack: we're trying to help as much as we can. If you want to bash the BBC, please do just drop me an email and let's keep that stuff off-list. j
[backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063 I spoke to our iPlayer team and I can mention a couple of things. 1. The ability to play BBC iplayer content via a Xbox360 using the media extender system is being considered and maybe be turned on in the near future. This means Dan and CW in these threads will be very happy - http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/225653.aspx http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/post/225836.aspx 2. We are looking to build iplayer for the Wii, iPhone and others by the end of this quarter. But with the device experience in mind. 3. My thoughts about bringing the iplayer to other devices was correct. If you don't break the DRM on the download version, re-transcode the streaming version, make the content available outside of the UK (break the GeoIP) and finally not screw with the actual content streams. Your able to build what you like, for any platform under the backstage licence. 4. Last but not least, we would like to invite some of the developers working on iPlayer for other devices into the BBC, so you can talk openly about what your doing. The iplayer team would attend and would love to show you what there also working on too. Who knows maybe we could help each other? So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Cheers Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [] private; [] ask first; [x] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 1/4/08, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063 [...] This is possibly not the best thread for it, but I'd been meaning to ask lately about iPlayer on slighlty less exotic devices - namely cable. With Virgin Media, I already have access to a selection of catch-up VoD content from the BBC (and 4oD and Virgin Media's own channels). Is iPlayer on cable going to bring anything more than a slightly pinker UI, or will it also mean the same selection of programmes as the web-based iPlayer? I've been enjoying some BBC Scotland programmes on my laptop over the past few days, and it would be nice to be able to watch them at a slightly higher resolution. cheers, - martin
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Martin Deutsch wrote: On 1/4/08, *Ian Forrester* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063 [...] This is possibly not the best thread for it, but I'd been meaning to ask lately about iPlayer on slighlty less exotic devices - namely cable. With Virgin Media, I already have access to a selection of catch-up VoD content from the BBC (and 4oD and Virgin Media's own channels). Is iPlayer on cable going to bring anything more than a slightly pinker UI, or will it also mean the same selection of programmes as the web-based iPlayer? I've been enjoying some BBC Scotland programmes on my laptop over the past few days, and it would be nice to be able to watch them at a slightly higher resolution. cheers, - martin Hi Martin, I think its public knowledge that we have a cable version of iplayer too. It was talked about in Edinburgh and elsewhere - http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007/jun/27/digitalmedia.broadcasting So don't worry that's coming down the pipeline... - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Quick questions: Adobe Flash is prohibited on non-PC systems, is the BBC suggesting we violate Adobe's EULA or just not use the streaming version? Many exotic system don't run x86 Processor emulators for the x86 chipset are also too slow for small devices. Where is the iPlayer source code so we can recompile for ARM, MIPS etc.? A lot of embedded systems don't run Windows at all, where is the protocol and file format specifications to get non-Windows systems to receive and play files? Thanks. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Many exotic system don't run x86 Processor emulators for the x86 chipset are also too slow for small devices. Where is the iPlayer source code so we can recompile for ARM, MIPS etc.? You don't need the iPlayer source. All of the heavy lifting on the client is done by Flash itself. A lot of embedded systems don't run Windows at all, where is the protocol and file format specifications to get non-Windows systems to receive and play files? iPlayer delivers a standard FLV over a standard RTMP stream. These are not open protocols but they are quite well understood. Cheers, Phil Wilson - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need the iPlayer source. All of the heavy lifting on the client is done by Flash itself. Flash is somewhat inefficient as it's adding an extra layer in the way of the hardware. It is also prohibited to use the Adobe Flash Web Player on anything that isn't a PC so how can the heavy lifting be done by Flash if Flash is prohibited? Also I thought Flash was only streaming, what if someone wanted to build a download engine? Some people don't like leaving there PC on all the time. Why not put download on an always on device? You may want your router to actually do the downloading. Or if you have some kind of NAS you may want it to do the fetching as it has closer control of discs and is always on. In that case you don't even want the playback components so all that's needed is the transfer. No DRM rubbish as that's on the machine that does playback. But again the BBC won't let us do this it would appear. This may seem far fetched but if you have a couple of home PCs and maybe a Media Centre or Set top box would you not benefit from having one centralised download unit instead of duplicating the download and storage to each device? Apart form the BBCs we hate people knowing how this works attitude I see no reason why it can't be done. After all the DRM isn't needed here as you only need to know about DRM to actually play the file. Downloading involves grabbing files, you need know nothing about them, just what the transfer protocol is. So BBC what *is* the transfer protocol for the downloads? iPlayer delivers a standard FLV over a standard RTMP stream. These are not open protocols but they are quite well understood. URLs of the actual docs would be good. I don't know of anything capable of playing iPlayers Flash stream apart from Adobe Flash Player which as mentioned can't be run on anything that's not a PC. Also do we have a way of getting the URLs of the stream and program information without the need for screen scraping*. Some weird and wonderful devices may not want to display the information the way the BBC designed it. Webpages are nice for desktop PCs but some devices have different UI capabilities. For all you know someone may want to design a toaster that projects the programme on the wall if someone asks it to play a certain programme via voice command. Having to look at a webpage and say right right right, down, click is a lot less intuitive than play Have I Got News For You. Yes this may seem a little unrealistic but why do the BBC want to limit the scope of creativity? If anyone wants to implement a downloader for some kind of NAS or server, or router then it would be interesting to see (once the BBC hands over what's needed). iPlayer on a toaster would be fun for the pure novelty value but I'm not sure if the voice recognition stuff is anywhere near good enough yet for my suggestion. Might be able to find some other kind of UI that would work, any suggestions? * I am almost certain this was mentioned at some point, but I can't for the life of me think where. Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Andy wrote: On 04/01/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Quick questions: Adobe Flash is prohibited on non-PC systems, is the BBC suggesting we violate Adobe's EULA or just not use the streaming version? Hold on a sec, we would never suggest breaking Adobe's EULA. No one is suggesting porting Flash to a non-PC system. You can play certain flash files using a bunch of other players. For example VLC, Mplayer, FFMpeg, Gnash, etc will all play Flash 4 files. Gnash can even render the animation and interaction of Flash 7 and 8 files. Flash playback and even creation isn't exclusive to Adobe, just like PDF. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
silly point - Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063; is xbox1 a typo, myself a poor student, still only have an xbox1so iPlayer on the Normal Xbox would be interesting... Barry Carlyon Ian Forrester wrote: Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063 I spoke to our iPlayer team and I can mention a couple of things. 1. The ability to play BBC iplayer content via a Xbox360 using the media extender system is being considered and maybe be turned on in the near future. This means Dan and CW in these threads will be very happy - http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/thread/225653.aspx http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/post/225836.aspx 2. We are looking to build iplayer for the Wii, iPhone and others by the end of this quarter. But with the device experience in mind. 3. My thoughts about bringing the iplayer to other devices was correct. If you don't break the DRM on the download version, re-transcode the streaming version, make the content available outside of the UK (break the GeoIP) and finally not screw with the actual content streams. Your able to build what you like, for any platform under the backstage licence. 4. Last but not least, we would like to invite some of the developers working on iPlayer for other devices into the BBC, so you can talk openly about what your doing. The iplayer team would attend and would love to show you what there also working on too. Who knows maybe we could help each other? So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Cheers Ian Forrester This e-mail is: [] private; [] ask first; [x] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 http://www.bbc.co.uk/ This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of the BBC unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it and notify the sender immediately. Please note that the BBC monitors e-mails sent or received. Further communication will signify your consent to this. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Barry Carlyon Webmaster of, http://barrycarlyon.co.uk http://lsrfm.com http://lsweb.org.uk mobile: 07729 048 443 office: 0113 380 1280 skype: barrycarlyon email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] msn: [EMAIL PROTECTED] begin:vcard fn:Barry Carlyon n:Carlyon;Barry org:Leeds University Union;LSRfm.com adr:;;PO BOX 157;Leeds;;LS1 1UH;UK email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Head of Web Development tel;work:0113 380 1280 tel;cell:07729 048 443 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://barrycarlyon.co.uk/ version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need the iPlayer source. All of the heavy lifting on the client is done by Flash itself. how can the heavy lifting be done by Flash if Flash is prohibited? The heavy lifting *in iPlayer* is done natively by Flash. The point was only that the iPlayer codebase is probably not that useful. Also I thought Flash was only streaming, what if someone wanted to build a download engine? Some people don't like leaving there PC on all the time. Why not put download on an always on device? There is nothing stopping you saving the resultant FLV into a static file. I think Ian's recent mail confirms that this is allowed. No DRM rubbish as that's on the machine that does playback. But again the BBC won't let us do this it would appear. To clarify: the streamed version has no DRM. I don't know anything about the downloaded DRM'd files and how the downloader works, but I can't imagine it's particularly complicated. This may seem far fetched but if you have a couple of home PCs and maybe a Media Centre or Set top box would you not benefit from having one centralised download unit instead of duplicating the download and storage to each device? Like I said above, this is possible via the streamed content. iPlayer delivers a standard FLV over a standard RTMP stream. These are not open protocols but they are quite well understood. URLs of the actual docs would be good. I don't know of anything capable of playing iPlayers Flash stream apart from Adobe Flash Player Gnash, Red5 and rtmpy all appear to have working RTMP clients. Also do we have a way of getting the URLs of the stream and program information without the need for screen scraping*. The stream URL currently requires screenscraping because of how the program IDs are provided. I think someone mentioned that the new /programmes app might be getting an API? This would get you the programme information. If anyone wants to implement a downloader for some kind of NAS or server, or router then it would be interesting to see (once the BBC hands over what's needed). To be honest, I can't imagine that there's much *to* hand over. Cheers, Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andy wrote: On 04/01/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So if your building a iplayer for an exotic device platform, do get in touch. Quick questions: Adobe Flash is prohibited on non-PC systems, is the BBC suggesting we violate Adobe's EULA or just not use the streaming version? Hold on a sec, we would never suggest breaking Adobe's EULA. And I suggest you boycott Adobe's proprietary software totally! :-) -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Andy wrote: On 04/01/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need the iPlayer source. All of the heavy lifting on the client is done by Flash itself. Flash is somewhat inefficient as it's adding an extra layer in the way of the hardware. It is also prohibited to use the Adobe Flash Web Player on anything that isn't a PC so how can the heavy lifting be done by Flash if Flash is prohibited? Also I thought Flash was only streaming, what if someone wanted to build a download engine? Some people don't like leaving there PC on all the time. Why not put download on an always on device? You may want your router to actually do the downloading. Or if you have some kind of NAS you may want it to do the fetching as it has closer control of discs and is always on. In that case you don't even want the playback components so all that's needed is the transfer. No DRM rubbish as that's on the machine that does playback. But again the BBC won't let us do this it would appear. This may seem far fetched but if you have a couple of home PCs and maybe a Media Centre or Set top box would you not benefit from having one centralised download unit instead of duplicating the download and storage to each device? Apart form the BBCs we hate people knowing how this works attitude I see no reason why it can't be done. After all the DRM isn't needed here as you only need to know about DRM to actually play the file. Downloading involves grabbing files, you need know nothing about them, just what the transfer protocol is. So BBC what *is* the transfer protocol for the downloads? iPlayer delivers a standard FLV over a standard RTMP stream. These are not open protocols but they are quite well understood. URLs of the actual docs would be good. I don't know of anything capable of playing iPlayers Flash stream apart from Adobe Flash Player which as mentioned can't be run on anything that's not a PC. Gnash by the FSF is a good place to start. Also do we have a way of getting the URLs of the stream and program information without the need for screen scraping*. Some weird and wonderful devices may not want to display the information the way the BBC designed it. Webpages are nice for desktop PCs but some devices have different UI capabilities. Please read through the thread of the xbox media centre forum, or check out Phil Wilson's post about this - http://philwilson.org/blog/2007/12/downloading-from-the-bbc-streaming-iplayer-is-hard For all you know someone may want to design a toaster that projects the programme on the wall if someone asks it to play a certain programme via voice command. Having to look at a webpage and say right right right, down, click is a lot less intuitive than play Have I Got News For You. Yes this may seem a little unrealistic but why do the BBC want to limit the scope of creativity? The BBC never want's to limit the scope of creativity. We do hope to have a API in the future but right now, you can get XML out of the normal site (as Phil found out). If we really wanted to limit your creativity we wouldn't create XML files and stick them on the public servers :) If anyone wants to implement a downloader for some kind of NAS or server, or router then it would be interesting to see (once the BBC hands over what's needed). You could do this now if you like, there are already applications which rip streams. iPlayer on a toaster would be fun for the pure novelty value but I'm not sure if the voice recognition stuff is anywhere near good enough yet for my suggestion. Might be able to find some other kind of UI that would work, any suggestions? Andy if you can make it happen, I will personally pay for you to come to the BBC and demo it in front of the iplayer team. Even if you use something like a Nabaztag to navigate through BBC iplayer radio content that would be cool! * I am almost certain this was mentioned at some point, but I can't for the life of me think where. The point is that with some collaboration and knowledge its almost possible to build a iplayer for another device without breaking any of the fundamental stuff I talked about before. This isn't the end of the road, but we would love to speak to people hacking iplayer on to xboxs, mobile phones, appletv, smart devices, etc... Who knows maybe there might be one thing we could do our end which makes your life easier. Ian - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2008, Phil Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't need the iPlayer source. All of the heavy lifting on the client is done by Flash itself. Flash is somewhat inefficient as it's adding an extra layer in the way of the hardware. Erm, there needs to be _some_ server-protocol-client system between the BBCs hardware and your hardware, so I don't think extra is appropriate. Proprietary, though, sure. The Flash stack is a proprietary server for the BBC, a non-standard and patent encumbered protocol, and there are proprietary and free clients (although Gnash, the free client, hasn't yet implemented the RTMP streaming protocol, but it is due this year according to the lead developer, Rob Savoye, when I spoke to him about this issue.) It is also prohibited to use the Adobe Flash Web Player on anything that isn't a PC so how can the heavy lifting be done by Flash if Flash is prohibited? That's a good point. Ian just wrote about not breaking things and I guess this means legally rather than technically. Also I thought Flash was only streaming, what if someone wanted to build a download engine? Some people don't like leaving there PC on all the time. Why not put download on an always on device? Also a good point that Ian avoided in reply to my earlier post. Ian? You may want your router to actually do the downloading. Or if you have some kind of NAS you may want it to do the fetching as it has closer control of discs and is always on. In that case you don't even want the playback components so all that's needed is the transfer. No DRM rubbish as that's on the machine that does playback. But again the BBC won't let us do this it would appear. The DRM is not turned on at the moment. Apart form the BBCs we hate people knowing how this works attitude Isn't the very point of this thread that the BBC _does_not_ have this attitude? So BBC what *is* the transfer protocol for the downloads? The one used by Flash Media Server, which was described in the post you reply to and is right there on the next line: iPlayer delivers a standard FLV over a standard RTMP stream. These are not open protocols but they are quite well understood. URLs of the actual docs would be good. Join the Gnash project if you want to work on this. They have money to pay developers good wages if you are serious. I don't know of anything capable of playing iPlayers Flash stream apart from Adobe Flash Player which as mentioned can't be run on anything that's not a PC. Wait for Gnash :-) Also do we have a way of getting the URLs of the stream and program information without the need for screen scraping*. Ian posted a link to a blog that mentions this way in his post to the XBMC forum that he linked to in the first post in this thread :-) Some weird and wonderful devices may not want to display the information the way the BBC designed it. Webpages are nice for desktop PCs but some devices have different UI capabilities. That was the point of the first post in this thread :-) For all you know someone may want to design a toaster that projects the programme on the wall if someone asks it to play a certain programme via voice command. Having to look at a webpage and say right right right, down, click is a lot less intuitive than play Have I Got News For You. Yes this may seem a little unrealistic but why do the BBC want to limit the scope of creativity? They don't, which is why they are inviting toaster designer to meet the iPlayer team. If anyone wants to implement a downloader for some kind of NAS or server, or router then it would be interesting to see (once the BBC hands over what's needed). The BBC doesn't have anything to hand over, other than handing over developer time to the Gnash project. Which seems unlikely, and that's okay; Gnash is raising plenty of money without handouts from UK license fee payers. -- Regards, Dave - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hold on a sec, we would never suggest breaking Adobe's EULA. No one is suggesting porting Flash to a non-PC system. I must have mis-understood. I assumed by exotic devices you meant something other than a desktop PC? I thought you where talking about iPlayer on other devices. iPlayer download software *only* runs on Desktop PCs running Windows XP or Vista. And now you say we shouldn't use the streaming version either on non-PC? What exactly did you have in mind when you said exotic devices? You can play certain flash files using a bunch of other players. For example VLC, Mplayer, FFMpeg, Gnash, etc will all play Flash 4 files. Gnash can even render the animation and interaction of Flash 7 and 8 files. What version is iPlayer's flash? Andy -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
Dave Crossland wrote: On 04/01/2008, Barry Carlyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: silly point - Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063; is xbox1 a typo, myself a poor student, still only have an xbox1so iPlayer on the Normal Xbox would be interesting... Yes, the original Xbox, not the Xbox360. The original Xbox's preloaded software can be modified to run community developed programs like the Xbox Media Center It is this program specifically that Ian is referring to; not all Xboxs will be able to view iPlayer streams, only ones modified to run XBMC. I believe this can all be done with one CD image now. Stick the CD in the drive of a Xbox1 and its firmware will be modified and you can install xbox media centre. Like I said, the Xbox running xbmc is interesting because it supports a network, is open (as such) and has a scriptable environment (python). You can imagine sooner or later set-top makers releasing boxes which have the same functions for a price. Reminds me of what dave sent a while ago - http://gizmodo.com/339513/dash-express-runs-on-openmoko-foss-platform-nerds-heads-explode - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Andy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hold on a sec, we would never suggest breaking Adobe's EULA. No one is suggesting porting Flash to a non-PC system. I must have mis-understood. I assumed by exotic devices you meant something other than a desktop PC? That's correct I thought you where talking about iPlayer on other devices. iPlayer download software *only* runs on Desktop PCs running Windows XP or Vista. And now you say we shouldn't use the streaming version either on non-PC? What exactly did you have in mind when you said exotic devices? You can play certain flash files using a bunch of other players. For example VLC, Mplayer, FFMpeg, Gnash, etc will all play Flash 4 files. Gnash can even render the animation and interaction of Flash 7 and 8 files. What version is iPlayer's flash? -- Regards, Dave (All posts are personal opinion only and don't reflect the views of any organisations I have or currently work for) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If anyone wants to implement a downloader for some kind of NAS or server, or router then it would be interesting to see (once the BBC hands over what's needed). You could do this now if you like, there are already applications which rip streams. This seems like personal opinion rather than official confirmation that storing copies of iPlayer streams privately, unmodified, does not break the terms of service of the iPlayer streams. Which is how I personally read http://www.bbc.co.uk/terms/ but it talks about house rules which seems to be BBC jargon for subsite specific terms of service; I can't see any house rules for iPlayer though. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only! :) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: On 04/01/2008, Barry Carlyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: silly point - Just in case anyone missed it, there's a bunch of developers trying to bring BBC iPlayer content to the Xbox1 and Wii. The main thread can be found here - http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27063; is xbox1 a typo, myself a poor student, still only have an xbox1so iPlayer on the Normal Xbox would be interesting... Yes, the original Xbox, not the Xbox360. The original Xbox's preloaded software can be modified to run community developed programs like the Xbox Media Center It is this program specifically that Ian is referring to; not all Xboxs will be able to view iPlayer streams, only ones modified to run XBMC. I believe this can all be done with one CD image now. Stick the CD in the drive of a Xbox1 and its firmware will be modified and you can install xbox media centre. Like I said, the Xbox running xbmc is interesting because it supports a network, is open (as such) and has a scriptable environment (python). You can imagine sooner or later set-top makers releasing boxes which have the same functions for a price. Reminds me of what dave sent a while ago - http://gizmodo.com/339513/dash-express-runs-on-openmoko-foss-platform-nerds-heads-explode Its probably worth pointing out (for the wider crowd) that there is a team working on porting XBMC to Linux, at this point a pico itx system based on something like VIA's Artigo (http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/10/vias-artigo-pico-itx-ultra-compact-barebones/) could make a very compelling offering to stick on the back of a TV. I guess someone could commercialise the hardware product with the XBMC port stuck on top with some sort of licensing/employment deal with the XBMC guys? Ian's post provides a decent overview with most of the important links on it: http://www.cubicgarden.com/blojsom/blog/cubicgarden/technology/home+entertainment/2007/07/21/Xbox-Media-Centre-is-being-ported-to-Linux.html - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
And now you say we shouldn't use the streaming version either on non-PC? You do not need to port Flash to use the streaming iPlayer. Flash is a convenient client tool but it is not the only one. Any piece of software which can talk RTMP and play FLV files can use iPlayer. So long it will run that software, the hardware is irrelevant. RTMP is just a socket-based protocol so clients can be written in any language. The playback is more restricted. Obviously you could use mencoder to convert to xvid or whatever and reach a potentially wider range of clients, but as Ian tells us, that's not allowed. You can play certain flash files using a bunch of other players. For example VLC, Mplayer, FFMpeg, Gnash, etc will all play Flash 4 files. Gnash can even render the animation and interaction of Flash 7 and 8 files. What version is iPlayer's flash? I think Flash 7 is required for the RTMP part (? need confirmation). The mplayer that comes bundled with ubuntu seems to play the resulting flv files fine. Cheers, Phil - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] BBC iplayer on exotic devices
On 04/01/2008, Duncan Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 04/01/2008, Mr I Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dave Crossland wrote: On 04/01/2008, Barry Carlyon [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iPlayer on the Normal Xbox would be interesting... Yes, the original Xbox, not the Xbox360. The original Xbox's preloaded software can be modified to run community developed programs like the Xbox Media Center I believe this can all be done with one CD image now. That's correct. Stick the CD in the drive of a Xbox1 and its firmware will be modified and you can install xbox media centre. XBMC is illegal to distribute. There is only the LGPLv2 source code at http://www.xboxmediacenter.com/download_files.htm and you'll have to get binaries via your favorite file sharing style because, sadly, XBMC currently relies on the heavily restricted Microsoft Xbox Developer Kit - http://xbmc.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=11 - and can't be compiled with OpenXDK - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenXDK . The EULA contract for the Microsoft XDK prohibits you from distributing the binaries it compiles, so XBMC binaries are illegal to distribute. Like I said, the Xbox running xbmc is interesting because it supports a network, is open (as such) and has a scriptable environment (python). You can imagine sooner or later set-top makers releasing boxes which have the same functions for a price. We don't have to have much imagination for this :-) The set top box company that demo'd at the Backstage unconference event in Edinburgh was, at that time, intending to restrict access to their GNU+Linux computers - but seemed unaware that the new terms of the GPLv3. GPLv3 means that they can either respect their users' freedom, or they can go license some other operating system, with a per-unit cost and less features, or they can stick with GPLv2 versions of the software, with less features or even security risks (eg, Samba is providing security fixes to an old GPLv2 version but no new features) So, er, we'll either see how well a less profitable OS works out for their shareholders, or one with less pre-configured features and perhaps less security works out for their users. Or we'll see them delivering free software that can run the XBMC port. I bet we'll see some companies trying the former, and I look forward to seeing them go bust :-) http://gizmodo.com/339513/dash-express-runs-on-openmoko-foss-platform-nerds-heads-explode Some companies already realise the way the wind is blowing. Its probably worth pointing out (for the wider crowd) that there is a team working on porting XBMC to Linux, at this point a pico itx system based on something like VIA's Artigo (http://www.engadget.com/2007/12/10/vias-artigo-pico-itx-ultra-compact-barebones/) could make a very compelling offering to stick on the back of a TV. I guess someone could commercialise the hardware product with the XBMC port stuck on top with some sort of licensing/employment deal with the XBMC guys? XBMC port is LGPL, so no deal required - although its likely they'll get such deals, because those guys know the most about the structure of their software, so they are some of the best people to hire to work on it. -- Regards, Dave (Personal opinion only, not the views of any employers past or present!) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
