Re: Myth or fact?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >There seems to be a pervasive belief amongst Baha'is that if a lot of Baha'is >pray in unison for something This notion is not pervasive in my experience. I have not heard of this praying "in unison"; it's not something that is discussed or done in my area. Why do you think this is pervasive? >Is God so legalistic that He would be less inclined to answer sincere prayers > I always start from the premise that God is not stupid. :-) Of course He will hear and answer sincere prayers. Tim "The only mortal sin is giving up." --Stephen King From: David Regal To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thursday, February 20, 2014 11:19 PM Subject: Myth or fact? The Baha'i Studies Listserv There seems to be a pervasive belief amongst Baha'is that if a lot of Baha'is pray in unison for something (from wherever they are at the time) the effect is far more powerful than if they pray at different times. Is there any foundation for this in the Writings, though? Because if there isn't it sure looks to me to be myth. Is God so legalistic that He would be less inclined to answer sincere prayers just because they aren't all said at the same time? David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-742360-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Fulfilled yet?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >few would agree that the internet functions with marvellous swiftness >everywhere. Compared to what we had 40 years ago -U.S. Postal mail - the paper kind, compared to that, the internet is truly marvelously swift. It used to take a week or more to mail a letter from the U.S. to Japan. Now it takes maybe 5 minutes. Tim "The only mortal sin is giving up." --Stephen King From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2014 3:32 PM Subject: Re: Fulfilled yet? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Any tech savy young man can find its way around website bans. On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 4:37 AM, David Regal wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > 'A mechanism of world inter-communication will be devised, embracing the > whole planet, freed from national hindrances and restrictions, and > functioning with marvellous swiftness and perfect regularity.' > > I've heard Baha'is say this prophecy has already been fulfilled by the > internet. While I'm pretty sure it refers to the internet, has it really > been entirely fulfilled yet? Freed from national hindrances? China bans a > lot of sites. North Koreans don't have much access yet. Marvellous > swiftness? I've heard a lot of complaining about broadband speeds in > various places. I think few would agree that the internet functions with > marvellous swiftness everywhere. > > David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-736729-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-736740-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: New Religious Movements and Post Conventional Morality
The Baha'i Studies Listserv For several months I have had my mail filter set so that anything from Stephen goes straight to my trash folder. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, April 22, 2013 1:08 PM Subject: Re: New Religious Movements and Post Conventional Morality The Baha'i Studies Listserv Please everyone. Hitherto ignore Stephen's posts. Maybe he will take the hint and leave on his own accord. But don't give him oxygen. Covenant breaking talk is not welcome here. On Mon, Apr 22, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: >> If I had written that book, I would have included more info, included other >> sects than the Haifan Heterodox Baha'i World Faith. > > All right, that's it. You are not welcome here. Either remove yourself > from this list or I will call Mark and have him remove you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-698477-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-698508-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Happy Day of the Empty Throne
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Mr. Gray, You are badly mistaken. The legitimate succession of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice is not just a "party line" as you jeeringly call it. The documents on which the Covenant is founded are authentic beyond any reasonable doubt. I don't know who is feeding you information, but whoever it is, is poisoning your mind. Be careful! Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Kent Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2012 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Happy Day of the Empty Throne The Baha'i Studies Listserv All sects even the heterodox, or maybe especially, both do and don't fit the definition of covenant breaker. The catch 22 being that the arguments both for and against any group being steadfast or covenant breaker requires you to presuppose a group to have either status before hand, thus begging the question. Questions like Who succeeded the Bab? Who succeeded Bahaullah? Who succeeded Abdul Baha? Who succeeded Shoghi Effendi? Is the Will and Testament and authenticdocument? etc. are only party lines and not really thought about unless denouncing other sects. Sorry, but many of may friends have in real life told me that I tend to be a little bit of a grammar nazi. If you ask me for example Don't you like apple pie, I'll respond No, I do like apple pie. it confuses people so I explain the grammar of my response. Also, I do also have logic nazi tendencies as well with pointing out the fallacies in people's arguments and references all the time. Wishing someone a happy holiday should lead to a sectarian diatribe, but only Susan the Warmest can do such a thing each and every time. I also hate pro drop language with a passion. I wish English was much more anti pro drop of a language. Only dead people know the truth, or possible time travelers. Sent from my iPad On Nov 20, 2012, at 12:23 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Only the Covenant breakers have ever referred to the office of the > Guardianship as a 'throne.' > > On Tue, Nov 20, 2012 at 12:10 PM, Stephen Kent Gray > wrote: >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> Yeah, it's November 20! >> >> November 20: Day of the Empty Throne. The anniversary of the day, in 1957, >> on which leaders of the Bahai religion voted to declare the office of >> Guardianship permanently vacant following the sudden death of Shoghi Effendi >> without leaving a will. >> >> Heard about it via blogspot! >> Sent from my iPad >> >> > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to > mailto:leave-676010-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: > http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-676031-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-676037-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Bigamy permitted in bahá'í writings?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hasan, >This make bigamy optional, so monogamy is not mandatory. Only if you ignore the Baha'i Covenant, which makes Abdu'l Baha the divinely guided, unerring interpreter of Baha'u'llah's words, and makes Shoghi Effendi the divinely guided, unerring interpreter of the words of Baha'u'llah and of Abdu'l Baha. You cannot understand the Baha'i teachings if you leave out the Covenant, which provides for authoritative explainations after Baha'u'llah died. There is also the principle of progressive revelation *within* the Baha'i Faith, as Susan's link of a few days ago makes clear. Baha'u'llah would sometimes make a general statement, in embryonic form, but leave it unexplained. Abdu'l Baha and Shoghi Effendi, as the lawful successors of Baha'u'llah, were uniquely qualified to make clear what Baha'u'llah's meaning was. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Hasan Elías To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 8:06 AM Subject: Re: Bigamy permitted in bahá'í writings? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Dear Susan, 'Abdu'l-Bahá said that, but the text (stressed) allows bigamy: "God hath prescribed matrimony unto you.Beware that ye take not unto yourselves more wives than two. Whoso contenteth himself with a single partner from among the maidservants of God, both he and she shall live in tranquillity. And he who would take into his service a maid may do so with propriety. Such is the ordinance which, in truth and justice, hath been recorded by the Pen of Revelation. Enter into wedlock, O people, that ye may bring forth one who will make mention of Me amid My servants. This is My bidding unto you; hold fast to it as an assistance to yourselves". If I say "you can marry with two, but it is better that you marry one". This make bigamy optional, so monogamy is not mandatory. You know that some early bahá'ís practiced bigamy. Perhaps a bahá'í understand this by faith but non-bahá'ís surely not. Best regards, Hasan De: Susan Maneck Para: Baha'i Studies Enviado: Miércoles, 26 de septiembre, 2012 11:53 P.M. Asunto: Re: Bigamy permitted in bahá'í writings? The Baha'i Studies Listserv No, I think He was referring to the fact that monogamy was Baha'u'llah's intention all along and therefore nothing was abrogated. On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:41 PM, Matt Haase wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Hasan, perhaps he was referring to men who were already married to two > women. As far as I know, a Baha'i convert doesn't have to get divorced from > one of his wives if he got married before joining the religion. > > > On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:49 PM, Hasan Elías wrote: >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> Hi Dean, >> >> The enemies of 'Abdu'l-Bahá blamed Him for modify/abrogated this law of >> Bahá'u'lláh. But the Master said He didn't change it, He denied it. >> >> Best, >> >> Hasan >> >> >> De: Dean Betts >> Para: Baha'i Studies >> Enviado: Martes, 25 de septiembre, 2012 7:33 P.M. >> Asunto: Re: Bigamy permitted in bahá'í writings? >> >> The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> >> Dear Hasan, >> The following passages from Notes to Kitab-i-Aqdas should clarify this >> subject. >> Dean B. >> >> While the text of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas appears to permit >> bigamy, Bahá'u'lláh counsels that tranquillity and contentment >> derive from monogamy. In another Tablet, He >> underlines the importance of the individual's acting in such >> a way as to "bring comfort to himself and to his partner". >> Abdu'l-Bahá, the authorized Interpreter of the Bahá'í >> Writings, states that in the text of the Aqdas monogamy is >> in effect enjoined. He elaborates this theme in a number of >> Tablets, including the following: 206 >> >> Know thou that polygamy is not permitted under the law of >> God, for contentment with one wife hath been clearly stipulated. >> Taking a second wife is made dependent upon equity and justice >> being upheld between the two wives, under all conditions. >> However, observance of justice and equity towards two wives is >> utterly impossible. The fact that bigamy has been made >> dependent upon an impossible condition is clear proof of its >> absolute prohibition. Therefore it is not permissible for a man to >> have more than one wife. >> >> Polygamy is a very ancient practice among the >> majority of humanity. The introduction of monogamy has >> been only gradually accomplished by the Manifestations of >> God. Jesus, for example, did not prohibit polygamy, but >> abolished divorce except in the case of fornication; >> Muhammad limited the number of wives to four, but >> making plurality of wives contingent on justice, and >> reintroducing permission for divorce; Bahá'u'lláh, Who was >> revealing His Teachings in the milieu of a Muslim society, >> introduced the question of monogamy gradually in accordance >> with the principles of wisdom
Re: Religious Conversion
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Why do and why should non-Bahais > become Bahais? People embrace the cause of Baha'u'llah for many different reasons, and everyone is welcome. But there is only one reason that is solid, in my view. The only solid foundation for becoming a Baha'i is belief that Baha'u'llah really is the Manifestation of God for our age. Everything else follows logically from that. If a person becomes a Baha'i without firm, heartfelt belief in Baha'u'llah as the revealer of God's will, they will have difficulty being steadfast in the face of difficulties; lacking faith in Baha'u'llah, they will be plagued by doubts and anxiety concerning this particular teaching or that one, or they will become disheatened because some Baha'i treated them badly. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:09 PM Subject: Re: Religious Conversion The Baha'i Studies Listserv Why do and why should non-Bahais > become Bahais? I became a Baha'i because when I read Release the Sun, I saw Jesus in the Bab. I concluded that either both were true or both were false. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-663442-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-663690-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Filtering out Baha'i Studies
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Because of the deterioration of this discussion group, and because there are technical difficulties preventing unsubscribing or shutting down this list, I have set my mail filters so that any message with bahai-st@list.jccc.edu in the "To:" field will go straight to my trash. I have enjoyed the contributions of some of you, in particular Gilberto, Don Calkins, Kazeh, and Susan. But this list is getting too hostile and vitriolic for me. So goodbye friends. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549559-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term >covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. Susan, Suppose there is a small group of people who called themselves chemists, but they reject the periodic table of elements, and they deny the laws of thermodynamics. I think it's legitimate to say they are not really chemists. And it would be misleading to say that real chemists are "mainstream" chemists, which implies that the pseudo chemists have some validity. It does not require any faith to see the legitimatre succession of authority in the Baha'i Faith, it only requires reading the relevant documents: The Kitab-i-Ahd, Kitab-i-Aqdas, Tablet of the Branch, Tablet to the Land of Ba, Abdu'l Baha's Will and Testament, and the pertinent writings of Shoghi Effendi. The Baha'i Covenant is so clear, so explicit, that any honest fair-minded person who reads those documents -with proper context such as defining "branch" - would see that the covenant breakers claims are illogical and without foundation. Calling Baha'is "mainstream" or "Haifan", implies that there is some validity to the covenant breakers claims. Just my 2 cents. And Happy Birthday on Monday! Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sat, January 1, 2011 12:15:35 AM Subject: Re: nakhlah raid was Re: Stealth Jihad (support for tolerance) The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Personally I find mainstream Baha'is offensive too. There is only one group > of Baha'is and that is simply called Baha'is. Other groups should be called > covenant-breakers. The problem Firouz, is that non-Baha'is are going to require something more neutral. I can't use the term covenant-breaker in an academic setting, for instance. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549518-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549520-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stealth Jihad
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. Susan, Have you tried telephoning the sociology department of the college where Mark teaches? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, December 29, 2010 11:06:23 PM Subject: Re: Stealth Jihad The Baha'i Studies Listserv > It may be that the college only permits list owners to have those > privileges, and only permits people to be list owners who are affiliated w/ > the college. No, the problem has to do with the fact that when they moved the list over to a different server I could never figure out how to use the new tools and Mark as usual, has been largely inaccessible. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549225-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-549470-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead >would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so >Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc. As I see it, the Qur'an contains the authentic revelation of God to Muhammad. The text of the Qur'an is true. As a Baha'i I have to believe that. Therefore, when the Qur'an says Muhammad is the Seal (last) of the messengers and prophets, I accept that as true. But apparently Baha'u'llah was of a different category, neither rasul nor nabi. So what's the problem? There is no need for this debate. The Qur'an is true, and Baha'u'llah really is the Manifestation of God for this age. Both are true. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 2:23:05 PM Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel The Baha'i Studies Listserv Again, if you go back to Khazeh's and Seena Fazel's interesting paper, he qutoes Juan Cole in a work of *his* on the Concept of the Manifestation in the Bahai Faith: Therefore in one sense, the Qur'ánic title of khátam al-nabiyyín (seal of the prophets) implies that the prophet and the messenger were a function of theophany which came to an end with Muhammad. "With the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, in the Bahá'í view, humankind has entered a new religious cycle characterized by a fuller theophany. In this cycle, concepts like `prophet' and `messenger' have been transcended" (Cole, Concept 18). In support, it is significant that the authors cannot find one instance in Bahá'u'lláh's writings in which he refers to himself as a nabí (prophet) or rasúll (messenger).[37] [end quote] And I think that if Bahais just stopped here, there would be much less disagreement. But Bahais generally don't just stop here, and instead would insist that Bahaullah etc. were messengers and prophets and so Muslims must be wrong/confused/wanting to tie the hands of God, etc. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547581-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547664-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Joseph Emmanuel
The Baha'i Studies Listserv With regard to the Seal of the Prophets Did Baha'u'llah refer to Himself as a nabi or a rasul? If he did not, then this whole question is moot. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 10:30:53 AM Subject: Re: Joseph Emmanuel The Baha'i Studies Listserv > All the earth is a masjid (place of prostration) And every Manifestation is the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547490-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-547556-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How will they cope?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Kathryn >I understand we are to be obedient, and we are not to take offense, > but this dogmatic approach raised bitterness, resentment One of the things I have had to learn in my Baha'i life, is that while we are to be obedient to the *institutions* and to the Writings, we haved zero obligation to be obedient to any individual who insists on his or her viewpoint, regardless of that person's title. So if an individual says I must do things a certain way, I might listen politely then do what I think is best. People have a right to their own views, but experience has taught me not to give in to bullies. It's always important to ask, "obedient to whom?" Nothing in the writings supports the idea that we have to obey charismatic people or people who claim that their opinion is "the Baha'i way". In the early years of Ruhi, the process was sometimes dominated by zealots who insisted everything had to be done by rigid rules. I think as the Baha'i community matures, we will learn not to let zealots run our lives. I have done several Ruhi books out of order, and I don't care who knows it. >I'd like to see more of us loving, respecting and supporting each other for >what >we can do > >instead of "tsk, tsking" and shunning those who can't do what we think they >ought to be doing. Hurrah for that!! And the House of Justice has encouraged us to appreciate everyone's efforts, of course. There is a deadening effect of people who think, " I know what the Baha'i really is, and *you* don't conform." Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Kathryn Darrah To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, December 15, 2010 12:15:27 PM Subject: Re: How will they cope? The Baha'i Studies Listserv This has been my experience. I understand we are to be obedient, and we are not to take offense, but this dogmatic approach raised bitterness, resentment and resistance in me. I started 1, 2 & 3 three times each before finally completing 1 & 2 in an intensive. Many years later, that is where I am stalled. After a decade as a Bahai, I still did not have what I considered a solid enough grounding in Baha'u'llah to share the Faith with others. I wanted Book 4 badly and was delighted when we started it. Then, we were told we must complete the books in order. I love children & support their activities financially as often as possible, and I'm a board member for a community theater which has provided 17 years of classes for kids & teens (including 3 absolutely amazing now young adult Bahais!) but I will never, ever teach children's classes. I haven't got physical health & energy even to babysit. Finally, as an isolated believer, I have an opportunity to do Book 8 with a tutor while we wait for a group to finish book 2 so we can do Book 4 together with a new believer. I can't wait! I'm frustrated with the way information still lags in getting to everyone. It's been a few years now since I read the House of Justice's clarification that we are not completely bound to Ruhi, that we have the freedom to use whatever works best in the situation, whether Firesides or Core Curriculum or Virtues. I'd like to see more of us loving, respecting and supporting each other for what we can do instead of "tsk, tsking" and shunning those who can't do what we think they ought to be doing. Kathryn On Wed, Dec 15, 2010 at 08:09, Susan Maneck wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Then again there is a wisdom in the sequence of books so actually im not >> sure. p: > >Keep in mind that these books were designed for Baha'is, not seekers. >We start with Book one because the first thing we want a new Baha'i to >do is to pray. But there are some seekers for whom Book One works >best. I find the ones that are drawn in through the children's classes >is one example. > >In any case, if I had had to do the books in order like is being >dogmatically pushed in some areas I never would have completed the >sequence. I did Book One, then Book Four, then Book Seven. Then I >started tutoring Book Four. I picked up the other books as I felt I >needed them, but I didn't finish the sequence until they appointed me >Cluster Development Facilitator. > > >__ >You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:allaboutjoye1...@gmail.com >Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-546823-2241165.3afeac45296046c4e2352da3d7e8d...@list.jccc.edu > >Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu >Or subscribe: >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: >Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu >Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > >News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > >Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.ne
Re: How will they cope?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > If we're only counting active Baha'is, which country in the world has the > most >Baha'is? > There is no generally agreed upon definition of the term "active Baha'i", so it's not possible to give a specific answer to this question. How many Feasts and study classes does a person have to attend in order to be "active"? Two? Five?, a dozen? There is no clear specific definition, and that's as it should be, in my view. I think it would be a mistake to start down the path of officially labelling people as active or non-active. This is a sensitive subject, because some folks equate "active Baha'" with "good Baha'i". And since people who see that equivalence don't want to label anyone as a bad Baha'i, they don't want to discuss who is active and who isn't. I do not think "active Baha'i" equals "good Baha'i". People don't come to Baha'i activities for lots of reasons, for example, lack of transportation, illness, family situation, or a lack of understanding of what the Baha'i Faith really is. None of that has anything to do with whether a person is good or bad. None of that has anything to do with how God sees a person. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: David Regal To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, December 14, 2010 7:45:40 AM Subject: Re: How will they cope? The Baha'i Studies Listserv >I think we do have a fairly accurate figure for the number of *active* >Baha'is in India. It is about 90,000. I had no idea. If we're only counting active Baha'is, which country in the world has the most Baha'is? Regards, David __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-546442-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-546454-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How will they cope?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >so many people have declared their Faith in Baha'u'llah, but in practice many >of >these new declarants > >become inactive in few months I have seen this same thing. Finding someone to enroll is relatively easy if you talk to enough people. But getting newly enrolled believers to make a **commitment** to the Faith - that's very difficult, even with the core activities. If a community enrolls 50 new Baha'is, but within a year, none of them participate in Feast or study classes or devotional meetings, then has there been any real progress? In my community (northeast U.S.), over the past 5 years, we have had maybe half a dozen people enroll. None of them participate in Baha'i activities as far as I know. It's possible some of their children go to children's classes or junior youth meetings, but I'm not sure of even that. The Baha'i community does not need lots of people who enroll. What is needed are people who will make a solid commitment to Baha'u'llah's teachings, and who will let their lives be changed to conform more closely with the counsels of the sacred texts, and who will actually show up for Baha'i activities once in a while. Tim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-546393-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: How will they cope?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >In the USA, the number of Baha'is is shrinking for sure, as new declarants are >well below > >the replacement level due to deaths. What is your reference for this? I don't know that this is a fact. >referring to the Baha'i Faith as a fast growing community. In the U.S. we are not fast growing. But this may be true for other parts of the world. > since truthfulness is a core ethical value, it irritates me to see us >constantly referring > to the Baha'i Faith as a fast growing community. Who is doing this "constant referring"? I almost never hear anyone say this in the U.S. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Ursusmaximus To: Baha'i Studies Cc: Baha'i Studies Sent: Mon, December 13, 2010 1:53:12 PM Subject: Re: How will they cope? The Baha'i Studies Listserv I believe the number of Baha'is in the world is stable at best, and maybe getting smaller. In the USA, the number of Baha'is is shrinking for sure, as new declarants are well below the replacement level due to deaths. Given the aging demographics of Baha'is ( a lot of us old folks and few young people) the trend will get worse before it gets better. Just saying we are a fast growing religion doesn't make it so and since truthfulness is a core ethical value, it irritates me to see us constantly referring to the Baha'i Faith as a fast growing community. Ron Sent from my iPhone On Dec 13, 2010, at 8:19 AM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> Are you sure that is an accurate prediction? Inductive reasoning. Present >>growth rates don't neccessarily predict future ones. > > Actually our present growth rate isn't all that high. During the late > sixties and early seventies the number of Baha'is in the US tripled. > We found we could not sustain that level of growth. The whole purpose > of the Institute Process was to develop a way in which growth would be > self-sustaining. > The House was not struggling (as David suggests) to keep up with > growth they simply did not place as high a priority on answering the > inquiries from individuals as David would like. And for that purpose, > they will likely become less and less available over time. At the same > time, there will be more and more knowledgeable individuals outside > the World Centre to whom certain questions can be addressed. The > primary purpose of the Universal House of Justice, besides guiding the > affairs of the community, is to make pronouncements regarding Baha'i > law and its application. > > But we do think we are playing a winning game and that our growth will > accelerate exponentially. > > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:ursusmaxi...@gmail.com > Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-546165-193154.cd7639b4f32d68d299933c46032cd...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu > Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu > Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st > News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-546222-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-546249-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
A Question About Muhammad's Wives
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I recently participated in a discussion about Muhammad. One person in the discussion stated over and over that Muhammad was immoral because he married a girl aged 6, and had intimate relations with her when she was only 9. This particular person in the discussion was interested in nothing except his or her own vitrioloc rants against Muhammad and against Islam. I defended Muhammad according to my limited ability, but I would like advice on how to respond to this accusation of pederasty, because it is likely to come up again, from critics of Islam. Shoghi Effendi told us we should be defenders of Muhammad and of Islam; I need help with this issue. Admittedly you cannot reason with a bigot, but I would like to have an effective answer for this subject. Thanks, Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-542595-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Law in Religion
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Thanks for your comment Jeanine, > Until it can be moderated--or replaced by a properly moderated forum Can this forum be moved to BCCA? or moved to Yahoo Groups? I learn a lot from the people on this list, so I'll stay, and use my mail filters to block messages from sources that I don't want to read. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-539244-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Law in Religion
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Susan, You have asked Stephen several times to stop posting quotes from covenant breakers, or links to their sites. But he persists. I do not want to read this poisonous dreck. Please unsubscribe me from this group. If the Baha'i studies ever goes back to what it used to be, a forum for serious discussion of scholarly issues, I'll be glad to re-join. But if you are going to allow someone to post covenant breaker stuff even after repeated warnings, then this list is too dangerous for me. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, November 11, 2010 5:37:04 PM Subject: Re: Law in Religion The Baha'i Studies Listserv What is the record of how gradual the laws have been implemented? What laws were in effect in previous period and now? Also, each sect has a different head and thus recongnizes different levels of law, atleast in theory. Where are the current laws lists for various communities like the West and China? Example quote from a different sect: The Doctrine of Enforcement of the Laws of Aqdas Every law in the Aqdas will be enforced in the future. “When the Bahá’í World Commonwealth is established and working, all of the Laws of the Aqdas will be enforced.” Charles Mason Remey, Second Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith, The Writings of the Second Guardian from 1962 – 1966, p. 51. With the sans-Guardian translation of the Aqdas, this question will become more and more important. “We should only observe those Laws, at this time, that were observed during the ministry of Shoghi Effendi, such as the Laws of Fasting, Obligatory Prayer, the marriage and divorce laws, and the distance of the burial site from the point of death (to the extent feasible).” Joel B. Marangella, Third Guardian of the Bahá’í Faith,The Uninterrupted View, Statements of the Third Guardian Vol I, 1969 – 1992, p. 14. From: "Iskandar Hai, M.D." To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, November 3, 2010 10:07:12 PM Subject: Re: Law in Religion The Baha'i Studies Listserv I might say: as much emphasis as deemed necessary by the Head of the Faith. Best regards, Iskandar On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 7:50 PM, Tim Nolan wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> how much emphasis on laws do Baha'is have? > > >From the beginning of the Kitab-i-Aqdas: > >"The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him >Who >is > the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who >representeth >the > Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. >Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; > and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author > of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth >this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, >to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. >These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. >Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." > > >__ You are subscribed to >Baha'i >Studies as: mailto:iskandar@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-537376-2080565.74e62800577573ae18970b78170ff...@list.jccc.edu > Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to > ly...@list.jccc.edu >Or subscribe: >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st >Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - >mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - >news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537390-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscrib
Re: Religion and Women
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >And there is a difference between being male and men or being female or women? To my mind, yes there is a difference. I would use "male and "female" to refer to horses or dogs or plants. I would use "man" or "woman" to refer to human beings. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537598-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Law in Religion
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > how much emphasis on laws do Baha'is have? >From the beginning of the Kitab-i-Aqdas: "The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable without the other. Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of Divine inspiration." __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537376-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devout Religiousity
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Being a good Baha'i (or any religion) ... It's more a matter of >doing every conscious act with the pure motive of pleasing God. Not that I know anything about that. 8-) Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Tim Nolan To: bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Sent: Tue, November 2, 2010 5:37:11 PM Subject: Re: Devout Religiousity >What pratices would cause a Baha'i to qualify for devout devotee status? Who cares? I don't think that's important. Following in God's path has nothing to do with "qualifying" for some status. I don't think this is anything to be concerned about. Being a good Baha'i (or any religion) cannot be achieved merely by following a list of rules or practices. It's more a matter of doing every conscious act with the pure motive of pleasing God. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537123-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devout Religiousity
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Why doesn't the Baha'i Faith have a Ten Commandents Why should it have them? Baha'u'llah revealed what God willed for our age. I think it's a mistake to try to make the Baha'i revelation fit into any conceptual boxes we invent. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537108-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Devout Religiousity
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >What pratices would cause a Baha'i to qualify for devout devotee status? Who cares? I don't think that's important. Following in God's path has nothing to do with "qualifying" for some status. I don't think this is anything to be concerned about. Being a good Baha'i (or any religion) cannot be achieved merely by following a list of rules or practices. It's more a matter of doing every conscious act with the pure motive of pleasing God. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-537105-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The point is that from the standpoint of Baha'is something > went terribly wrong in Islamic history. I am ignorant about Islamic history. Could you tell me what went terribly wrong? And what's so bad about the Umayyads? Tim - Original Message From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sun, October 17, 2010 11:33:12 AM Subject: Re: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New Events Align alot The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> The "fourty-two months" and the "three and a half days" actually >> appear in the same passage so it doesn't make sense to conflate them. > > I think it is a parallelism. Except they are clearly distinct periods.The two witnesses are given the power to prophesy for 1260 days (i.e. 42 months) but then the beast rises up and kills them. THEN their bodies are put on display for three and a half days and then they are brought back to life and taken up to heaven. > > The Ummayyads didn't last 1260 >> years. > > And they didn't start in 622 A.D. either. The point is that from the > standpoint of Baha'is something went terribly wrong in Islamic > history. The Bahais are going to say that anyway just by coming out of the Shia branch. But the book of Revelation doesn't just say "the beast is some wrong person". The Beast should persuasively satisfy the different pieces of the text (the witnesses, the length of its reign, the meaning of 666, the mark, buying and selling, etc.) It doesn't have to be literal but it should make *some* kind of sense. > > Also the text is clear that two witnesses would be unconquered >> during 42 months of their prophecy and then it isn't until after that >> period is over that the beast will rule for another 42 months. And in >> general the rest of the details don't really track. > > I think both things are true. Muhammad's dispensation lasted 1260 > years yet His community came to be controlled by those who undermined > it. Bahais might say that anyway because it fits their narrative. But in the Bible the two witnesses are able to prophesy for the the full 1260 days (years) with power to destroy their enemies before being killed by the beast (which you claim are the Umayyads). Revelation 11 [3] And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." [4] These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the earth. [5] And if any one would harm them, fire pours out from their mouth and consumes their foes; if any one would harm them, thus he is doomed to be killed. [6] They have power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. [7] And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends from the bottomless pit will make war upon them and conquer them and kill them, __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-533390-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-533403-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Politics on Facebook
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan, > I don't hesitate to refer to myself as a liberal. O.K I try not to use the words liberal or conservative because it's not clear to me what they mean, specifically. In today's culture those words are used as insults, not as principles. For example, conservatives are allegedly for small government, but what they really mean is small government for you and me, big government for them and their interests. My views don't fit into any idealogical box, probably yours don't either. I am in favor of some things that people may call conservative, such as chastity, children should respect their parents, abstention from drugs and alcohol, marriage should be between one man and one woman. Of course I have views that may seem liberal, such as the oneness of humanity, the need for a world federal system, the need for a world auxiliary language. As I see it, the Baha'i Faith is sui generis; it's teachings are neither wholly conservative nor completely liberal. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-533357-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i Review
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I'm leaving this thread for now; I have nothing to contribute beyond what I've already said. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-526570-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i Review
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >how should a non-Bahai refer to the various >groups which all claim to be Bahais and follow the teachings of >Bahaullah? I'm noty interested in telling other people what words to use. The best thing to do is look at the *evidence* and to ignore claims that have no foundation in fact. By evidence I mean Baha'u'llah's will and testament, the Tablet to the Land of Ba (Beirut), Abdu'l Baha's will and testament, and the clear statements of Shoghi Effendi. The covenant breakers do not have any evidence to back up their claims. If one looks at the facts, and ignores claims which are not backed by facts, it is evident that there is only one Baha'i Faith. >groups which all claim to be Bahais I can claim to be Napoleon; that does not make me the emporer of France. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 2:14:05 PM Subject: Re: Baha'i Review The Baha'i Studies Listserv I understand that what you are saying makes sense from your perspective. But then how should a non-Bahai refer to the various groups which all claim to be Bahais and follow the teachings of Bahaullah? On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 1:54 PM, Tim Nolan wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > "Haifan Baha'is" is a misnomer because it implies that those Baha'is who are > faithful > to the covenmant are just one of several "legitimate" Baha'i groups. > That is not the case. The Baha'i community that follows the covenant, and > turns to the Universal House of Justice for guidance, is the *only* > legitimate Baha'i group. > > Tim > > All good art is about something deeper than it admits. > --Roger Ebert > > > From: Stephen Gray > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 1:46:40 PM > Subject: Re: Baha'i Review > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > I didn't know who Juan Cole was, just that Wikipedia had a link to his page > from an article. > > Is he reallly an enemy of the faith? > > Are Haifan Baha'is really faithful to the Covenant? > > > From: Jeanine H. > To: Baha'i Studies > Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 10:50:58 AM > Subject: Re: Baha'i Review > > The Baha'i Studies Listserv > > Dear Susan Brill de Ramirez, > > The following is just my opinion. > > Part of the problem may be that this is only a partly-moderated list. Mark > needs to give the co-moderator the ability to remove posts if he is not > going to monitor this list, and long practice seems to show that he is not. > Otherwise, Covenant Breaker and enemy of the Faith material has, and will > be, occasionally posted here. The friends who are responding in this case > are correctly identifying that the scholar discussed below fits into this > category. The desire to point out the severe problems with this person stems > from a desire to protect the Faith and individuals who don't know the > history of such people. That means we will have, de facto, negative > responses to such people and materials. It is possible that the atmosphere > may not be to everyone's liking, either in the first instance of bringing up > the issue or, then, in the response. It is not simply a "live and let live" > when there are corrosive individuals who have repeatedly slandered the > Institutions and have sought leadership; that's the first negative. If you > don't know the history, if the discussion feels like individuals backbiting, > you can email Dr. Maneck who has had to deal with these people repeatedly. > There's a reason you see what you see. There was a Baha'i list that was > created for, and dealt specifically with, scholarly study of individuals who > attack the Faith and where such a discussion is unreservedly appropriate, > but I don't know what's happening with that list these days. > > Having said that, the originators of this list can clarify what purpose is > served in these instances. Unless the originator permits removal of posts, > there is no ultimate moderation function. That is a shame, because this kind > of issue has come up from time to time in virtually every Baha'i list I've > read. That is the nature of the disease of opposition to the Covenant. I, > personally, skip the discussions that I find unpleasant and read the more > enlightening ones. The moderators can clarify the purpose of the list, > altho' I suspect I could just look around at all the links at the bottom and > figure it out. ;-) > >
Re: Baha'i Review
The Baha'i Studies Listserv "Haifan Baha'is" is a misnomer because it implies that those Baha'is who are faithful to the covenmant are just one of several "legitimate" Baha'i groups. That is not the case. The Baha'i community that follows the covenant, and turns to the Universal House of Justice for guidance, is the *only* legitimate Baha'i group. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 1:46:40 PM Subject: Re: Baha'i Review The Baha'i Studies Listserv I didn't know who Juan Cole was, just that Wikipedia had a link to his page from an article. Is he reallly an enemy of the faith? Are Haifan Baha'is really faithful to the Covenant? From: Jeanine H. To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, September 14, 2010 10:50:58 AM Subject: Re: Baha'i Review The Baha'i Studies ListservDear Susan Brill de Ramirez, The following is just my opinion. Part of the problem may be that this is only a partly-moderated list. Mark needs to give the co-moderator the ability to remove posts if he is not going to monitor this list, and long practice seems to show that he is not. Otherwise, Covenant Breaker and enemy of the Faith material has, and will be, occasionally posted here. The friends who are responding in this case are correctly identifying that the scholar discussed below fits into this category. The desire to point out the severe problems with this person stems from a desire to protect the Faith and individuals who don't know the history of such people. That means we will have, de facto, negative responses to such people and materials. It is possible that the atmosphere may not be to everyone's liking, either in the first instance of bringing up the issue or, then, in the response. It is not simply a "live and let live" when there are corrosive individuals who have repeatedly slandered the Institutions and have sought leadership; that's the first negative. If you don't know the history, if the discussion feels like individuals backbiting, you can email Dr. Maneck who has had to deal with these people repeatedly. There's a reason you see what you see. There was a Baha'i list that was created for, and dealt specifically with, scholarly study of individuals who attack the Faith and where such a discussion is unreservedly appropriate, but I don't know what's happening with that list these days. Having said that, the originators of this list can clarify what purpose is served in these instances. Unless the originator permits removal of posts, there is no ultimate moderation function. That is a shame, because this kind of issue has come up from time to time in virtually every Baha'i list I've read. That is the nature of the disease of opposition to the Covenant. I, personally, skip the discussions that I find unpleasant and read the more enlightening ones. The moderators can clarify the purpose of the list, altho' I suspect I could just look around at all the links at the bottom and figure it out. ;-) Yours, Jeanine On 9/14/2010 10:19 AM, Brill de Ramirez, Susan wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv In reviewing the posts over the last number of weeks, I have a request: Would the moderators of this listserve please remind us all of the purpose for this discussion group? I would greatly appreciate that. When individuals come together in good spirit to learn together, that is a gift. When we can do this across great geographic distances via this listserve, that is also a great benefit to us all. There is such a fine line between argument for the sake of argument and disagreement in the course of learning. There is also a fine line between being informed about the work of various scholars and descending into the realm of scholarly" backbiting. I read the attachment that maligns the recent scholarly work of Professor Juan Cole. I regret that I did so. It is not my business why or why not a fellow scholar receives a position . . . unless it is in a department over which I have some jurisdiction or involvement. None of us are perfect; professors make mistakes, some small, some large. If Professor Cole has produced some work that is weak, then I would rather recognize the good scholarly work that he has done and is still doing. If he was a Baha'i, but is no longer, that too is not my business. That is between him and Baha'u'llah. I would much rather read about the positive contributions that various Baha'i scholars are making that can help us to grow in our understandings of the Faith and the world. Negative attacks about scholars, negative attacks about the Faith, these do not serve the larger purpose of a unified and engaged search for knowledge. To look always at the good and not at the bad. If a man has ten good qualities and one bad one, to look at the ten and forget the one; and if a man
Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Does your last post abrogate all your previous posts? I don't know of anything in part three of the will which indicates it abrogates the first two parts. Unless it is clearly stated, then no there is no abrogation. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 1:46:25 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv THe question becomes does part 3 abrpgate previous parts? ________ From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:29:04 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Nevertheless, Shoghi was clearly and undeniably an Aghsan, a direct descendant of Baha'u'llah. >Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. I don't think that's true. I don't have a copy of the Will in front of me, but I believe Abdu'l Baha uses the term "branch" (Aghsan or Ghusn) in other parts of the Will. I recall Susan saying that Abdu'l Baha refers to Shoghi Effendi as Ghusn-i-Mumtaz, the chosen branch. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 1:22:45 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv But they were all allied with Mirza Muhammad Ali, all the patrilineal Aghsan. It's another thing to ask if one can be a matrilineal Aghsan given the fact that like in tree leaves stop lineage grwoth. Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:18:00 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shoghi Effendi was the great grandson of Baha'u'llah and the grandson of Abdu'l Baha, so he was an Aghsan. He was also an Afnan, descended from the Bab's family. >He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. I don't think that's a fair implication. He certainly mentions Aghsan in other parts of His will. As an analogy, in the first sentence of this post, I did not mention Bahiyyih Khanum. That does not imply that I think she's unimportant. (God forbid!) Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:49:20 PM Subject: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/WT/wt-3.html He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. He even goes so far as to appoint an Afnan (Shoghi Effendi) to be Guardian. He refers to him as an Afnan (ie twig), not as an Agshan (branch) not even half or step wise. Remember, the family tree was patrilineal. Imagine maping it out like this. Fathers branch out to list their desendants and mothers just stay listed without links. Males would therefore be braches and twigs on this chart and women, leaves. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524422-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524433-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ Y
Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >Nevertheless, Shoghi was clearly and undeniably an Aghsan Sorry for the typing error. Of course I meant Shoghi Effendi. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert ____ From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 1:29:04 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 Nevertheless, Shoghi was clearly and undeniably an Aghsan, a direct descendant of Baha'u'llah. >Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. I don't think that's true. I don't have a copy of the Will in front of me, but I believe Abdu'l Baha uses the term "branch" (Aghsan or Ghusn) in other parts of the Will. I recall Susan saying that Abdu'l Baha refers to Shoghi Effendi as Ghusn-i-Mumtaz, the chosen branch. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 1:22:45 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv But they were all allied with Mirza Muhammad Ali, all the patrilineal Aghsan. It's another thing to ask if one can be a matrilineal Aghsan given the fact that like in tree leaves stop lineage grwoth. Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:18:00 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shoghi Effendi was the great grandson of Baha'u'llah and the grandson of Abdu'l Baha, so he was an Aghsan. He was also an Afnan, descended from the Bab's family. >He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. I don't think that's a fair implication. He certainly mentions Aghsan in other parts of His will. As an analogy, in the first sentence of this post, I did not mention Bahiyyih Khanum. That does not imply that I think she's unimportant. (God forbid!) Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:49:20 PM Subject: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/WT/wt-3.html He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. He even goes so far as to appoint an Afnan (Shoghi Effendi) to be Guardian. He refers to him as an Afnan (ie twig), not as an Agshan (branch) not even half or step wise. Remember, the family tree was patrilineal. Imagine maping it out like this. Fathers branch out to list their desendants and mothers just stay listed without links. Males would therefore be braches and twigs on this chart and women, leaves. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524422-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524433-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524435-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mail
Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Nevertheless, Shoghi was clearly and undeniably an Aghsan, a direct descendant of Baha'u'llah. >Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. I don't think that's true. I don't have a copy of the Will in front of me, but I believe Abdu'l Baha uses the term "branch" (Aghsan or Ghusn) in other parts of the Will. I recall Susan saying that Abdu'l Baha refers to Shoghi Effendi as Ghusn-i-Mumtaz, the chosen branch. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 1:22:45 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv But they were all allied with Mirza Muhammad Ali, all the patrilineal Aghsan. It's another thing to ask if one can be a matrilineal Aghsan given the fact that like in tree leaves stop lineage grwoth. Abdu'l-Baha nver refers to him as an Agshan, just an Afnan. From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:18:00 PM Subject: Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shoghi Effendi was the great grandson of Baha'u'llah and the grandson of Abdu'l Baha, so he was an Aghsan. He was also an Afnan, descended from the Bab's family. >He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. I don't think that's a fair implication. He certainly mentions Aghsan in other parts of His will. As an analogy, in the first sentence of this post, I did not mention Bahiyyih Khanum. That does not imply that I think she's unimportant. (God forbid!) Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:49:20 PM Subject: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/WT/wt-3.html He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. He even goes so far as to appoint an Afnan (Shoghi Effendi) to be Guardian. He refers to him as an Afnan (ie twig), not as an Agshan (branch) not even half or step wise. Remember, the family tree was patrilineal. Imagine maping it out like this. Fathers branch out to list their desendants and mothers just stay listed without links. Males would therefore be braches and twigs on this chart and women, leaves. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524422-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524433-1719008.2a3842ae5b2f7d34dd5fdfc724616...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524435-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mai
Re: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Shoghi Effendi was the great grandson of Baha'u'llah and the grandson of Abdu'l Baha, so he was an Aghsan. He was also an Afnan, descended from the Bab's family. >He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. I don't think that's a fair implication. He certainly mentions Aghsan in other parts of His will. As an analogy, in the first sentence of this post, I did not mention Bahiyyih Khanum. That does not imply that I think she's unimportant. (God forbid!) Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, September 2, 2010 12:49:20 PM Subject: Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha Part 3 The Baha'i Studies Listserv http://reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/WT/wt-3.html He no longer metions the Aghsan in this part, implying he wrote them out of it. He even goes so far as to appoint an Afnan (Shoghi Effendi) to be Guardian. He refers to him as an Afnan (ie twig), not as an Agshan (branch) not even half or step wise. Remember, the family tree was patrilineal. Imagine maping it out like this. Fathers branch out to list their desendants and mothers just stay listed without links. Males would therefore be braches and twigs on this chart and women, leaves. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524422-32977.dbe40ccd11b1fb869099e58e00076...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-524433-27401.54f46e81b66496c9909bcdc2f7987...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >They aren't covenant breakers in that: What, specifically, is their relation to the Universal House of Justice? Do they accept its authority without reservation? Are they submissive and obedient to it? What is this so-called "International Institution of the Guardianship" shown in the copyright statement on their home page? This website smells bad, and there's no way I'm going into it past the first page. Putting up a website and advocating reforms sounds a lot like mounting a campaign within the Baha'i community, which Baha'is are not supposed to do. It's fine to suggest something to the House of Justice, but in my view it's not acceptable to have a website setting forth proposed reforms. That is equivalent to trying to organize the Baha'i community to put pressure on the Universal House of Justice to make decisions these so-called reformers want. That's not how things should be done. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 3:38:34 PM Subject: Re: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies Listserv They're more like Baha'i reformers. They aren't covenant breakers in that: They believe Baha'u'llah was the successor of the Bab and not Subh-i-Azal. They believe Abdu'l-Baha was the succesor of Baha'u'llah and not Mirza Muhammad Ali. They believe the Will & Testament of Abdu'l-Baha to be authoritative and valid ie unlike Mirza Ahmad Sohrab, Ruth White, Frederick Glaysher, etc. They believe Shoghi Effendi had no succesor to the Gaurdianship, ie Charles Mason Remey was rightfully expelled as a false claimant. They believe that Baha'u'llah will be succeeded by a future Manifestation of God, but not for atleast 1000 years - 50 years have passed ie unlike Jamshid Mani and John Carre. Sounds like regular Baha'i just with a list of reforms they want taken up. From: Shamim Bina To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 2:21:15 PM Subject: Re: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies ListservWhat is this site all about? Is this a Covenant-breaker site? Sincerely, Shamim On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >It's a Five Elders http://www.fiveelders.org/ idea that the Universal House of >Justice (9 males) needs a Universal Senate of Justice (9 females) to balance >it >out. Is this possible? > > > >__ You are subscribed to >Baha'i >Studies as: mailto:shamimb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-522758-19442...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st >in >the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i >Studies >is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - >news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- "Dedicate the precious days of your lives to the betterment of the world". ~ Bahá’u’lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522766-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522771-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522785-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jc
Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I went to the site through Google. I only looked at the first page. It definitely looks like a covenant breaker website. On the first page it says copyright The International Institution of the Guardianship. So, Mr. Stephen Grey, why are you posting links to covenant breaker websites? What game are you playing? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Shamim Bina To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 3:21:15 PM Subject: Re: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies ListservWhat is this site all about? Is this a Covenant-breaker site? Sincerely, Shamim On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 1:53 PM, Stephen Gray wrote: The Baha'i Studies Listserv > >It's a Five Elders http://www.fiveelders.org/ idea that the Universal House of >Justice (9 males) needs a Universal Senate of Justice (9 females) to balance >it >out. Is this possible? > > > >__ You are subscribed to >Baha'i >Studies as: mailto:shamimb...@gmail.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to >mailto:leave-522758-19442...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st >in >the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i >Studies >is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - >http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - >news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - >http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu -- "Dedicate the precious days of your lives to the betterment of the world". ~ Bahá’u’lláh __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522766-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522772-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Universal House of Guardianship
The Baha'i Studies Listserv That fiveelders link doesn't work for me. Who are they, and what is their relation to the Baha'i covenant? I never heard of this Universal Senate of Justice. Can you give sources from the writings of Baha'u'llah or Abdu'l Baha or Shoghi Effendi? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, August 26, 2010 2:53:15 PM Subject: Universal House of Guardianship The Baha'i Studies Listserv It's a Five Elders http://www.fiveelders.org/ idea that the Universal House of Justice (9 males) needs a Universal Senate of Justice (9 females) to balance it out. Is this possible? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522758-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-522770-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: "Out of the fusion of two souls a third subtle entity is born;..."
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Bill >I also remember Rosemary passing on some information that day >that could be considered "Loaded". So...what was this loaded information? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Skygram To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Sun, August 22, 2010 6:14:30 PM Subject: Re: "Out of the fusion of two souls a third subtle entity is born;..." The Baha'i Studies Listserv Jeanne! http://www.ca.bahai.org/sala Here is a link to some information about Rosemary Sala. As a Montrealer I had the opportunity to meet Rosemary and Emeric on a number of occasions. Rosemary was also a close friend of Ruhiyyih Khanum. I recall once having tea with the two of them. I remember Rosemary and Ruhiyyih Khanum "ribbing" each other in delightfully humorous ways that only occur between old and dear friends. I also remember Rosemary passing on some information that day that could be considered "Loaded". However being a young fellow and new to the Faith I didn't immediately grasp it's full significance. I realize now that in meeting these two souls in such an informal manner, I was blessed. Bill __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-521655-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-521660-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Respect for Islam
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hello Gilberto, >Muhammad is the last prophet, which is something that the Bahai Faith rejects I am no scholar, so I will give only my personal non-authoritative understanding. I think Muhammad was in fact the last nabi. In my view Baha'u'llah was of a different category. Here is an analogy to explain what I mean. Imagine that there was only one manufacturer of automobiles, and for many years this factory produced automobiles and those were the only man-made means of rapid transportation; there are no airplanes. Finally, the CEO tells the public, "This car we made today is the last car, we will never make another car." The next year, someone invents the airplane. And people say, "No one should ride in an airplane because the CEO said there will never be another car." Well that's true, there will never be another car in this imaginary world. But there will be airplanes, and buses, and trains...etc. This is far from a perfect analogy; don't get hung up on the analogy, just focus on the concept. Just because there will never be another prophet like Muhammad doesn't mean revelation from God has ceased. As for Jesus being the son of God, this is metaphorical not physical as others have said, so there is no conflict with the Qura'n on that point. Shoghi Effendi wrote: "that invisible yet rational God Who, however much we extol the divinity of His Manifestations on earth, can in no wise incarnate His infinite, His unknowable, His incorruptible and all-embracing Reality in the concrete and limited frame of a mortal being. Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá’í belief." Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-511121-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Respect for Islam (was: Re: Ablutions
The Baha'i Studies Listserv I was brought up as a Catholic, and now I am a Baha'i. When I was a Catholic boy, I was taught to despise Muhammad and to look on the Qur'an as a strange book that should be avoided. Now *because* of accepting Baha'i teachings, I believe Muhammad was a Messenger of God. I believe the Qur'an is the word of God and is much more authentic than the Bible. I believe Islam is a true religion from the Creator. This is a direct result of my acceptance of Baha'u'llah's revelation. If someone spoke badly of Muhammad or Islam I would do my best to defend them with cogent words. If a copy of the Qur'an fell on the floor I would hurry to pick it up and clean it off. These are just examples. Because of being Baha'i, I respect Muhammad and acknowledge the truth of Islam. If I had remained Chrstian, my vision would probably have remained clouded. If I could afford it, I would visit Mecca, but I think Muslims would not allow it. Note that people who are not Bahai's are welcome to visit the shrines in the Holy Land, and to visit Baha'i houses of worship. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-510937-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: The only quality God doesn't has?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv If I may jump in here. I suggest it's the wrong question to ask whether God has a particuar quality, unless a Manifestation of God refers to it. God is not a person who has or does not have qualities. We can never understand God. I have reached the conclusion that it's not useful to talk about God, except in very general terms, because anything we say about God is a product of our limited minds and is therefore inadequate and misleading. The best we can do is learn about the Manifestations, Who give us a faint glimmering of what God is like.Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Hasan Elías To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Tue, June 15, 2010 9:39:32 AM Subject: Re: The only quality God doesn't has? The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan, So, God has it or not? thnx De: Susan Maneck Para: Baha'i Studies Enviado: lun, junio 14, 2010 10:10:01 AM Asunto: Re: The only quality God doesn't has? The Baha'i Studies Listserv > We know God possesss all qualities. > What about humility? > > This could be the only quality He doesn't possess? Dear Hasan, As you know the attributes of God really apply to His Manifestations and not His Essence which is unknowable. And His Manifestations *do* possess humility. In this connection you might want to read my article "Justice, Fairness and the Meekness of God." http://jfm.susanmaneck.com/ warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:hasanel...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-509202-1610...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-509374-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-509391-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'I laws
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The example which comes to mind is smoking in the Bahai >faith. It isn't prohibited but it isn't exactly A-OK either. I read an interesting story about how Shoghi Effendi showed kindness to a pilgrim, Charles Dunning, when he came to the Holy Land from the British Isles. Mr. Dunning had very little money. During his pilgrimage, one day after dinner, he was smoking a very short stub of cigarette, at Shoghi Effendi's table. The Guardian said, "Charles, why are you smoking such a small cigarette?" Mr. Dunning replied, "I am a poor man, Shoghi Effendi, I have to get as much enjoyment as I can out of what I have." Shoghi Effendi was pleased by this answer, and he arranged it so that for the rest of Mr. Dunnings visit, each evening, there was a fresh pack of good quality cigarettes at his place at the dinner table. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Gilberto Simpson To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, May 26, 2010 8:28:28 PM Subject: Re: Baha'I laws The Baha'i Studies Listserv On Wed, May 26, 2010 at 4:51 PM, Susan Maneck wrote: > The Baha'i Studies Listserv >> What is the difference between a Baha'i saying that an action is not covered >> by law and a Muslim saying that it is legally neutral? > In Islam neutral is a category of Islamic law. >> Independent of either Baha'i law or Sharia, beyond either religion, or any >> religion, it seems to me that the categories of obligatory, praiseworthy, >> indifferent, blameworthy, utterly unacceptable and (lets-call-it) >> death-worthy are natural categories which are intuitively observed by all of >> us all of the time. > > Sure, but we don't always view them in terms of law. Most legal > systems consist of only two categories, what is prohibted and what is > obligatory. But the same categories are implicitly and intuitively there in the background. The example which comes to mind is smoking in the Bahai faith. It isn't prohibited but it isn't exactly A-OK either. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-506910-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-506911-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Religion and Science
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >From the Letter to the World's Religious Leaders, published by the House of >Justice: "religion and science are the two indispensable knowledge systems through which the potentialities of consciousness develop. Far from being in conflict with one another, these fundamental modes of the mind’s exploration of reality are mutually dependent and have been most productive in those rare but happy periods of history when their complementary nature has been recognized and they have been able to work together. The insights and skills generated by scientific advance will have always to look to the guidance of spiritual and moral commitment to ensure their appropriate application; religious convictions, no matter how cherished they may be, must submit, willingly and gratefully, to impartial testing by scientific methods." Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, May 20, 2010 12:34:15 PM Subject: Religion and Science The Baha'i Studies Listserv What does it mean for religion and science to be in harmony? I mean it's consider a given in a today's society and maybe even in the Bab's/Baha'u'llah's times as well? There are a minority of staunchly anti-religious scientist and logical positivist like Richard Dawkins to name a few. There are no religious people I know who say religion is anti-science. There may be disputes about religious theories and scientific theories, but rarely ever do people from one side actually deny the other side as a whole or even in part. Religious people sometimes say the mainstream scientific community is in error and their theories are actually pseodoscience and vice verse. How does a Baha'i stay in accord with science? I know we don't blindly follow clergy on their authority, so I guess we do the same with scientists and their theories? Science does have a shaky background of theories always being overthrown by newer ones. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-506030-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-506037-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Women and Men (was: Lesser Prophets
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Brent, >Baha'u'llah said the day will come when a woman traveling alone will be able >to traverse >the entire surface of the earth ... and without a single man having looked >upon her with lust. While men have a responsibility for this, it would also help if women would stop dressing in a way that is designed to provoke lust. Some women do dress modestly, but too many dress in a manner to show off their bodies. Tim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-505010-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Polishing the Mirror (the Soul)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >not enrolled, but then neither are the Bahais in China or Iran. That's because in Iran it is dangerous if your name is found on a Baha'i membership list. In China, according to what I've read, believers are not enrolled because of some policies of the Chinese government. I'm not sure of the details. Neither of those conditions is true in New Zealand or the Netherlands. Neither am I. Neither were all the Bahais who lived before there was such a thing as enrollment Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert - Original Message From: Sen & Sonja To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 6:14:52 AM Subject: Polishing the Mirror (the Soul) The Baha'i Studies Listserv On 16 Apr 2010 at 1:42, David Regal wrote: > Didn't she disagree with some UHJ decisions, though? that's the rumour, but the UHJ has never said so, and I've seen no evidence for it. It's easy to launch a rumour. > no sense to claim to be Baha'i if you don't support the UHJ, Agreed > Agreeing with nearly everything about the Faith > doesn't make you a Baha'i. Agreed. Being Bahai is a personal committment, not a mere opinion. Still, so far as I know, Alison is a Bahai. If it's important to you to know, you can ask her: there a contact form on her site. She's not enrolled, but then neither are the Bahais in China or Iran. Neither am I. Neither were all the Bahais who lived before there was such a thing as enrollment. Vice versa, not every name on the membership rolls represents a Bahai. The UHJ determines the membership, and sometimes says that certain people who apply for membership cannot be enrolled, but it does not say that they are not Bahais. Sen __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:tnola...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-499594-329...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-499715-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Polishing the Mirror (the Soul)
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >not enrolled, but then neither are the Bahais in China or Iran. That's because in Iran it is dangerous if your name is found on a Baha'i membership list. In China, according to what I've read, believers are not enrolled because of some policies of the Chinese government. I'm not sure of the details. Neither of those conditions is true in New Zealand or the Netherlands. > Neither were all the Bahais who lived before there was >such a thing as enrollment. But now, at least in some countries, there *is* an enrollment procedure. So it's not a valid comparison to imply that a person who is not enrolled is similar to people a hundred years ago who were not enrolled, because long ago, there was no way to officially enroll. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-499600-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Political views
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >I live in Mississippi. Even though blacks make up 30% of the >population no black man has ever been elected to a state-wide office here. Has any black woman been elected to state office? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-496563-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > Alledgedly killing Shoghi > Effendi, I say allegedly... She was with him the most and he > was standing between her and the Fund money. Mr. Gray, This is an outrageous and contemptible accusation, and don't try to weasel out of it by saying allegedly. There is zero evidence for what you are saying. By your reasoning someone could stir up doubts about yourself. Who are you, exactly? Are you an agent provocateur? Are you in this email group under false pretenses? Tim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482470-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: RE: Sects
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Why is Covenant Breaker material being allowed on this list? Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert --- On Thu, 1/21/10, Stephen Gray wrote: From: Stephen Gray Subject: Re: RE: Sects To: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Thursday, January 21, 2010, 12:37 PM The Baha'i Studies Listserv Also, their UHJ ie UHJ.net allows women on thiers. The appointed body of the Universal House of Justice in its first stage, once and for all, herby resolves that: Based upon the Explicit Holy Text and the clear and manifest proofs and evidences contained within, and in accordance with, the revealed statements of Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and Shoghi Effendi, the Universal House of Justice shall be comprised of both men and women. And furthermore, that: The membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice is constituted within the Baha'i Administrative Order, that is, the membership of both men and women on the Universal House of Justice forms an irremovable part of the constitution of the Universal House of Justice in all its stages. And therefore, that: In confomity with, and in enforcement of, the Explicit Holy Text, if women are not elected to the Universal House of Justice than that election shall be declared invalid. [Approved this eighteenth day of Mulk in the year one hundred and fifty-two of the Baha'i Era (February 24, 1996)] From: Stephen Gray To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Thu, January 21, 2010 11:05:59 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv Oh, I do not know that much of early church history. They listed these as: 1.Thyatira (Baha'i Faith) Universal House of Justice in Haifa, Israel 2.Laodicea (The Faith of God, The House of Mankind, The Man, The Universal Palace of Order, etc.) Jamshid Ma'ani (independent prophet who denounced 'Abdu'l-Baha) and John Carre (Gaurdian of this faith who later renouced this group) DEFUNCT! 3.Ephesus (The Mother Baha'i Council, The Orthodox Baha'i Faith) Charles Mason Remey, (Rex King,) Joel Marangella (who ascended while the Charles Mason Remey was still alive) 4.Perganum (see Ephesus, but Under the Regency) Rex King, currently seeking a male descendant of Baha'u'llah to be his successor... 5.Smyrna (The Charles Mason Remey Society) Charles Mason Remey, (Joseph Pepe Remey,) Donald Harvey, Jacques Soghomonian 6.Sardis (Dissidents of the Lamb and the Covenant) not applicable, just dissidents 7.Philadelphia (The City of Brotherly Love (they never actually use this title as a gruop name though), The Baha'is Under the Provision of the Covenant) Charles Mason Remey, Joseph Pepe Remey, Neal Chase Also, what kind of person was 'Amatu'l-Baha Ruhhiyyih Khannum? They have her characterized as the greedy power hungry conspirator who killed Shoghi Effendi. They also use the story of Nimrrod, Semirasmis, and Amrafel/Tammuz as an example of the root of all covenant breaking (ie from the original Adamic religion). From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wed, January 20, 2010 11:25:16 AM Subject: Re: RE: Sects The Baha'i Studies Listserv > There is the prophecy of the seven churches too. The seven churches in Revelation? Those were actual churches which existed at the time the Book of Revelation was written. The Jensenites combine a lot of bizarre prophecies. They are especially fixated with this notion that the catastrophe will occur as a result of a shifting of the earth's axis. It seems that a lot of early American Baha'is believed this including Mason Remey and Ruth Moffet. This belief seems to come from a misunderstanding of a talk Abdu'l-Baha gave in Egypt regarding trade disputes. He stated the following: " A few days the earth shall roll on its axis, and these fleeting visions will be completely forgotten." Abdu'l-Baha was talking about the passage of time, but many early believers imagined this to be a reference to the poles themselves shifting. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482027-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:skg_z...@yahoo.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-482299-17190...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/al
Quote attributed to 'Abdul-Baha
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >"Know that you are where you are, not by chance, but by the >design of your Creator, for your development and for the >development of those around you." Ocean did not find this. I hope it's not an authentic quote of Abdu'l Baha, because while it may contain some truth, it would be a heartless and condescending thing to say to someone who has suffered great pain or tragedy. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-467617-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Evolution from apes? bahá'í teachings
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hi Susan, >Can't we let science decide the issue? The physical aspect of evolution is certainly a scientific question, not a religious one. >they say men and apes share a common ancestor. Our bodies have evolved from an ancestor we share with apes. But we are not our bodies. The body is only a house we live in for a few decades while we learn lessons in this life. Our spiritual essence has always been distinctly human, never animal. That's how I see it. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-462437-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Door to door
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hello Matt, >In some neighborhoods, people like visitors coming over and >talking to them. There is a large difference between having a visit from someone who lives in your neighborhood, and having a total stranger -who may even be from a different city - knock on your door and start talking about religion. In the U.S. at least, what often happens is that teams of teachers go to a neighborhhod, a neighborhood where the teachers do not live, where no one knows them. The teachers are typically white and middle class, the people who are the targets are typically poorer and of minority groups. Now, the poor and people of minority groups definitely have the right to hear about the Faith. But you never see these teaching teams go to middle class neighborhoods. Having a complete stranger come to your door is fundamentally different from having a friendly visit from someone you know at least by sight because they live in your neighborhood. >they used to go door-to-door all the time in the southern states >of the U.S., and that resulted in many declarations into the > Baha'i Faith Yes; and of those 20,000 or so declarants, very few ever showed any commitment to the Faith. I am not criticizing those people who declared; no I am criticizing the "sign-em-up quick" salesmanship techniques of teaching that seem to be repeated over and over. I admit to doing it when I was young and foolish, but I won't do it any more. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-445416-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Door to door
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hello David, >a campaign requiring us to go to houses You may have felt required to go door to door, but in fact you were not. I understand it's hard to resist the pressure that others may put on you, but you can just say no if you don't want to do this. When I was young and malleable, I also went door to door, but I never felt at ease doing it and I refuse to do it now. If others want to, that's their business, but I won't. There is nothing in the sacred Writings that says every Baha'i *must* go door to door. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-445389-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Succession
The Baha'i Studies Listserv > what specifically was the relation of the other descendants of > Bahaullah to the Bahai faith? In what way were they unsuitable to > succeed Shoghi Effendi? All the other male descendants of Baha'u'llah had broken the Covenant. Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-435980-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Shouldn't he have known?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv In view of the powerful, exalted description of the Guardian in the Will and Testament, I suggest it is fruitless for us to try to limit Shoghi Effendi's infallibility or to try to figure whether he was infallible before November 29, 1921. I don't care. First of all it's not important to know whether he was infallible while Abdu'l Baha was still alive. He did not become head of the Faith until after the Master's passing. Whatever he was before that, may be of interest to historians, but I don't see that it matters to me in my day to day life. Abdu'l Baha was the Center of the Faith from 1892 - 1921. Shoghi Effendi was not omniscient, so if he didn't know something, so what? As far as interpreting the sacred texts and guiding and protecting the Baha'i Community, he was unerring. For me, that's sufficient. Tim __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-427518-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: Who is writing the future?
The Baha'i Studies Listserv Hello Susan, >1) the affirmation that, regardless of cultural shifts and temporal >exigencies and notwithstanding critiques of essentialism, >the center does indeed hold; Could you explain this more? I'd like to understand this better. I understand the allusion to the Yeats poem, but I'm not sure what you mean. Thanks, Tim All good art is about something deeper than it admits. --Roger Ebert __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:arch...@mail-archive.com Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:leave-425560-274...@list.jccc.edu Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to ly...@list.jccc.edu Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai...@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Baha'i proofs of the existence of God
The Baha'i Studies Listserv >The members of a set (Creation) can not prove the existence of >something (God) outside the set. An excellent point. I think there will never be a convincing, logical proof of God's existence, because humans have been attempting this for centuries, and still not everyone believes. If God's existence could be proven like a mathematical theorem, it would have been done by now, and everyone would believe. I don't think God wants people to be compelled to believe, to be unable to deny God's existence. Therefore there will never be a proof that is overwhelmingly convincing. Tim But remember this, no one can remove the footprints you made, or the echo of your voice, or the smiles you gave and those you got in return, and as you go around in your travels, you will see beauty spots, all belonging to God. -- Charles Dunning The so-called proofs are actually rationalizations for believing. Don C - Understood properly, all man's problems are essentially spiritual in nature. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News (on-campus only) - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: 'Abdul-Baha teaching how to pray
Have you looked in Portals to Freedom?
Tim--- On Sat, 4/19/08, Larry Marquardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From: Larry Marquardt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Subject: 'Abdul-Baha teaching how to prayTo: "Baha'i Studies" Date: Saturday, April 19, 2008, 11:02 PMDear Friends,
I tried several search words in Ocean, Google, and the Baha'i Academic
Library trying to find the source of the story where an individual (Howard
Colby Ives?) wanted 'Abdul-Baha to teach him how to pray. The story, as
I'm trying to recall, says something about how the person was waiting
patiently for 'Abdul-Baha to finish praying so he could be shown how to
pray. The story also conveys that as this person is waiting to receive
'Abdul-Baha's instruction he is noticing the cracks in the wall and is
focusing on other distractions, etc. etc. rather than 'Abdul-Baha's
praying.
Does anyone know where this story can be found? I cannot remember anymore
details except maybe the person was kneeling while waiting for 'Abdul-Baha
to finish praying. Does this story sound familiar to anyone?
Thank you,
Larry
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>I would like to point out that Richard is forwarding the messages
>posted here onto another list without the permission of the authors.
Thanks for letting us know, Susan. I won't respond to him.
Tim
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Re: Jewish/Arab Peace Song
>I'm not a Baha'i, by the way, so it felt somewhat insulting to hear someone
>say that the >reason why there is conflict is because they haven't accepted
>the Faith.
**Somewhat** insulting? I'd say *very* insulting. Baha'is are not
necessarily better than other people. We are all in this boat together.
Conflict exists because some people want it to exist. Certain people
benefit from conflict, for example arms dealers and some (not all)
politicians.
Mohandas Ghandi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr.none of them were
Baha'i, but all of them brought about significant benefits to humanity.
The Grameen Bank is not run by Baha'is, as far as I know, yet look at all the
good it has done.
I am a Baha'i, but don't think Baha'is have all the answers to everything,
and I know from direct experience that there are many wonderful people
who are not Baha'is, who make the world a better place.
Tim
"All good art is about something deeper than it admits."
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Re: Letter
Page number please?
firestorm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: don,
it's in lights of Guidance, towards the bottom left of the page...across from
the cite saying that reasons for delaying marriage in the west were normally
economic and...pifffle (that may be a paraphrase.)
Tim
"Change means movement. Movement means friction."
--Saul Alinsky
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Re: Letter
David,
I don't know the source of that comment. The Baha'i writings say
clearly that although to married is desirable, it is not the central purpose
of life. It's not obligatory for Baha'is to marry.
Mirza Abu'l Fadl, the great Baha'i scholar never married.
Hands of the Cause Agnes Alexander and Martha Root never married.
Shoghi Effendi himself didn't marry until he was 40.
It's possible what you read was a pilgrim's note, which carries
no authority. Or it's possible the letter you read was to a particular
individual, and the advice to marry by age 25 was meant for that
person, not for everyone.
David Friedman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
.hmmessage P { margin:0px; padding:0px } body.hmmessage {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma }I saw a letter by Shoghi Effendi
in a book some years ago, and it isn't anything you'd find on MARS. In it he
says we should be married by 25 at the latest. Does anyone have the passage?
I'm almost 30 and not yet married so starting to get a bit worried!
Regards,
David
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Tim
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--Karen Lamb
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Re: PowerPoint warning
As a rule, I never open attachments unless I am sure it's from
someone I know personally. Knowing a person only through the internet
is not enough; I have to know the sender from face to face human
contact before I'll open an attachment. Otherwise I just delete the email.
Even that rule is probably not strict enough, because some malware can make
itself appear to be sent from someone you know.
My default belief is that any attachment is infected unless there is
very good reason to know it's clean.
Tim
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Normative?
Hello maidenhairleaf,
>I have come to fear that many Baha'is, while they might say they agree with
the four >things above, in practice seem to me to not believe as such.
So what? Is your faith based on what Baha'is do or on belief in Baha'u'llah?
>I fear that, as soon as one declares, one is expected, by many Baha'is, to
behave in a
>very strict, dogmatic, simplistic way, sort of an automaton, who can only
quote
>Writings, and to actually think about things and question is seen as
disloyal and bad.
I strongly suggest that you should not let your life be directed by
the expectations of "many Baha'is". Baha'is are just people who are
struggling to follow the path of God, but who have faults just like everyone
else.
As someone said, becoming a Baha'i does not mean a person has arrived
anywhere, it only means he has agreed to go.
If you turn to the authoritative Baha'i writings, including those of the
Guardian and
the House of Justice, I think your fears will be removed.
Tim
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Normative? (was: Kitab-I-Aqdas and other questions)
>It does matter, in my opinion, whether knowledgeable Baha'is think my views
>and >understandings, the very ones that caused me to declare, are within
>acceptable norms or >not. I have no desire to be a Baha'i whose views are
>contrary to what normative
>Baha'is are striving to achieve."
Dear Friend,
I suggest looking at it this way: the only "normative" standards in the
Baha'i Faith
are the writings of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and
the Universal House of Justice. Aside from those, no individual has the
right to say what is acceptable. Some people may try to define
what is normative, but I would just let them talk and give no weight
to their views. Refer to the authoritative Baha'i writings.
If you try to fit yourself into whatever shape some other fallible person
expects, you will be at the mercy of the biased views of first this
one then that one, then a third one, etc. That's no way to live, in
my opinion.
Tim
"A year from now you'll wish you had started today."
--Karen Lamb
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RE: Deconstructionism
>I agree that by nature truths are not absolute and that absolutes are
>illusions in a world >that is relative in nature...
I agree that many things are relative, but what about these statements.
Are there any circumstances in which these are not true?
--God is the Source of all good.
--Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. That is,
if A=B and B=C, then A=C.
--Truth unites people, lies divide people.
Also, the deconstructionist or postmodern belief that all things are
relative, inevitably
leads to monstrous conclusions such as :
"The Rwandan genocide was right for that culture."
Tim
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Ancestry (was: Re: Ancestry of Baha'u'llah)
Hi Susan,
>Given enough generations, everyone is related to everyone else.
I agree in general; almost all of us are probably related to Genghiz Khan
or to Alexander the Great. But I wonder if this is true of populations
that until 200 years ago, were relatively isolated, for example the
Aborigines of Australia
or the Inuit.
Tim
All good art is about something deeper than it admits.
--Roger Ebert
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Re: Religion must be the cause of unity
>Since Baha'is aren't allowed to renounce our religion how can we say that it
>is better to do away with religion if it is not the cause of unity? I don't
>see how this makes sense.
The Baha'i teachings are not, and never will be the cause of disunity.
In fact the true teachings of Judaism, Christianity, or Islam, are not the
cause of disunity.
Disunity comes out of fanaticism, bigotry, narrow mindedness and so forth.
True religion - that is, the authentic teachings of the Manifestations of God
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are not the source of strife. The perversion of religion, adding on man-made
doctines, that is the cause of disunity, not true religion.
Tim
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Universal House of Justice and Infallibility
Hello David,
>I know that the infallibility of the House is dependent on the
>information received.
I understand this principle differently. As I see it, there is never a
problem
with the House's infallibility. Every statement or decision they make is
protected
from error and guided by the Bab and Baha'u'llah. Having faith in that is of
fundamental importance. I think all their statements go with the implicit
implication "provided the information we have received is correct and
complete." To me, this means it is fruitful to study the House's decisions
that had to be changed, after they received better information.
The original decision was unerring, given the information they had. The
changed decision is also unerring, in light of the new information. This may
seem like a mere rephrasing of your words, but, to me, it's vital to keep in
mind that there is never a problem or defect in anything the House does. The
information given to them may be inaccurate or incomplete,
but that is not a deficiency of the House. They are protected from error,
but not omniscient.
> There's something that ocurred to me recently . People sometimes
write to the House in languages none of the House members can speak.
> If the House don't understand the response isn't there a possibility that
their response >could get mistranslated and the result be that the official
response of the House
> has a ruling which wasn't what they intended?
> If so, would that make the erroneous response to be considered binding?
David, If someone gives a convincing answer to this concern, will you simply
come up with another anxiety-producing issue that might be possible?
I suggest that instead of dwelling on all the difficulties that are
possible, it's
more fruitful to study the sacred texts, especially Abdu'l Baha's words about
the
Universal House of Justice. It's possible to think of a million things to
worry about,
and when one is answered, to think up another one. If that's the kind of
life you want for yourself, O.K., but I think inner strength and peace of mind
will come from
studying the words of Baha'u'llah, Abdu'l Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the House
of Justice.
That is the source of life.
Tim
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Re: Recent House letter
David,
Given what Abdu'l Baha says about the Universal House of Justice in His Will
and Testament, the best way to understand their statements, in my view, is to
begin from the assumption that they are protected from error and guided by
Baha'u'llah and the Bab.
It is inconceivable that they would ever contradict what Shoghi Effendi wrote.
If something looks to me like a contradiction, it isn't really. It's only my
lack of understanding. The Universal House of Justice is the source of all
good and freed from all error; whatever they decide is the truth and the
purpose of God Himself.
It is impossible that they would ever lead us astray.
I suggest beginning your thinking from that foundation.
Tim Nolan
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Re: Ruhi
Hi Susan,
>there are not supposed to be any right or
>wrong answers (despite the fact the questions are close-ended.
I wonder where the myth began that there are no right or wrong answers in
the Ruhi method. Clearly there are right and wrong answers. For example:
Book 1, Part 1, section 1...True or false...Something is correct when it is
in agreement with the opinions of other people. Obviously this is false.
Saying this is true would be a wrong answer.
Book 1 Section 3 part 4True or false...It is important for us to know
about life after death.
Obviously trueFalse would be a wrong answer.
There are many examples like these. Maybe a facilitator, out of courtesy,
would not say
"That answer is wrong", but an answer can still be wrong or right, even if no
one calls it that.
The notion that there are no right or wrong answers may hold for some open
ended questions, but for certain questions, that notion is silly.
Tim Nolan
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Re: Tests
Hello David,
>It says in the Writings that God doesn't burden a soul beyond its
>capacity. I'm just wondering how one could determine what a person's capacity
>is,
>so as to know what being burdened beyond one's capacity would look like.
This is not a useful question, in my opinion.
I don't think it's possible to know anyone's emotional, psychological or
spiritual capacity.
People sometimes rise to astonishing heights of accomplishments, beyond even
what they expected of themselves. I'm not even sure of my own capacity. So I
don't worry about what my capacity is, in most circumstances, I just try to do
the best I can with whatever life throws at me.
>According to the Writings those who have committed suicide obviously
>haven't been burdened beyond their capacity.
Someone else wrote that God never tests a person beyond their capacity to
turn to God and ask His help. With God's help, one can overcome many problems,
and with His help a person can abide with problems that cannot be overcome.
However, in extreme circumstances, a person may choose not to turn to God,
and by himself he may lack capacity to endure, and so may commit suicide. In
that case,
God did not test the person beyond his capacity, because by choosing not to
turn to God, the person did not use the full capacity (God's help) that was
available to him.
Tim Nolan
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Re: Tests
Hello Susan,
>Tests don't stop until we die in any case.
Would you please tell me where in the writings it says that there will
be no more tests in the worlds after this one?
Thanks,
Tim
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: Re: Bahai view on evolution
>I am wondering if you can guide us to a source/s in the writings that support
>this
>(that humans have always been human because they have a human soul, but
that this >soul or spirit was latent, not manifest in extreme antiquity.)
I don't know of any quotes that directly support this; it's a conclusion I've
reached in learning to believe both the findings of science, and the
statements of Abdu'l Baha.
>How does this relate to the statement of Abdu'l-Baha that we will never find
a missing link-
This idea is from a passage in Promulgation of Universal Peace. The talks in
that book are not authenticated, so we cannot be sure exactly what Abdu'l Baha
said.
I wouldn't put to much weight on a statement from non-authenticated texts.
Also it depends on what is meant by "missing link". Wikipedia has an
interesting article on transitional fossils (missing links). Look up the
Wikipedia article on
Australopithecus afarensis.
In my view, the discussion about missing links misses the point.
Human beings are essentially spiritual, not physical. The body is nothing
more than a house we live in for a brief time, then leave behind at the
transition we call "death". If human beings had the appearance of apes, or
fish, millions of years ago,
that doesn't mean they actually were apes or fish. The physical appearance
is not the essence. Humans are not superior to animals because of our bodies.
After all, many animals are stronger and faster, have better eyesight and
hearing and sense of smell than humans have. It is our souls that give us
human capacity; the body is secondary.
Tim Nolan
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Re: Bahai view on evolution
>The teachings says "man has always been man", but I am looking a
> way to explain this point of view when we talk about a common
> ancestor of man and primates. How can I explain this in accordance
> to Baha'i teachings?
As I understand it, humans have always embodied human souls, the
human spirit, different from the spirit of animals.
However, in extremely ancient times, this human spirit was
latent, not manifest. The Manifestations of God, through progressive stages,
are bringing this human spirit into the light.
Tim
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How much of Islamic culture is actually Arab?
I have been thinking about this question for a few weeks.
To what extent is modern global Islamic culture based on
Arab culture? For example this busines of women dressing
so they are covered from head to toe? I think the U.S. could certainly
benefit from more modesty, but the burkha seems extreme.
Is the burkha common in, say, Pakistan or Indonesia?
I notice also that when Americans convert to Islam, they take names
that sound Arab. In the case of African-Americans it's
understandable that they want to discard the "slave name",
but there are lots of African names that don't sound Arab.
So why do converts almost always take Arab names?
Baha'is do something similar; I know lots of Anglo-American
or African-American Baha'is named Nabil, or Karim, or Tahirih.
Many years ago I even knew a Baha'i child named Shoghi!
Do you think that converts to Islam take Arab names because
Arab culture is perceived as somehow more authentically Muslim?
I await your insights,
Tim
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Re: Precedent
Don, Thanks for the references. Tim Don Calkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:"In considering matters of this sort the beloved Guardian has instructed that each case must be considered on its own merits, and that a decision in one case is not to act as precedent in another. Hence, in this case, if your Assembly determines that Mr. . . . and Miss . . . did not clearly understand that Bahá'í law requiring consent of parents applies to civil as well as Bahá'í marriage, you could decide not to impose sanctions. On the other hand, if it should be found that Bahá'í law was known and clearly
understood and that the violation was deliberate, a different decision would be indicated." "Letter from the Universal House of Justice, dated September 9, 1963, to a National Spiritual Assembly; published in Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities) "...it is establishing a dangerous precedent to allow Assemblies to put a time limit on non-attendance of their members at meetings of the Spiritual Assembly beyond which that person is automatically dropped from the Assembly and a vacancy declared... There should be no time limit fixed by Assemblies beyond which a person is dropped. Every case of prolonged absence from the
sessions of the Assembly should be considered separately by that Assembly, and if the person is seen to not want to attend meetings, or to be held away from them indefinitely because of illness or travel, then a vacancy could legitimately be declared and a new member be elected." (From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer: Baha'i News, No. 208, June 1948) Don C -- -.-.-.-.-He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is
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Precedent
Hello Scott, >there is no such thing as 'precedent' in Baha`i jurisprudence< I have heard this many times but I have never seen it in the authoritative writings. Can you give a reference? Thanks, Tim Nolan
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what is a vision? was Re: Resurrection of Christ
Hi Gilberto, >So what happened when someone says they "saw a vision"? Is it aGod-induced hallucination only visible to one person? Is it anappearance visible to many people? < I don't think it's necessary or useful for others to attempt to define what really happened when someone says they had a vision, unless the vision-seer tries to use that to affect other peoples lives. Aside from that, I think it's fruitless to try to define what another person's vision "really was". Even the person who had the vision may not be sure. On the other hand, if a person who had a vision uses that to tell other people what to do, then I would want evidence that the visionary's message was good and true. >What about these resurrectionexperiences? Physical? Shoghi Effendi said the
stories about Christ's resurrection are symbolic; the resurrection was spiritual, not material. Tim Nolan
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Re: Is it okay? . . . .
Hello Scott, > to announce the publication of a novel I have written, with some references and quotes from the Baha`i faith tucked away within the story, < Since it contains quotes and references about the Faith, did you have to get approval from the Baha'i review committee where you live? I am interested because I also would like to write, so I want to understand the rules. Rob Stockman has written something about this, for the U.S., but I don't have his notes. Tim
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Words and Meaning
Hi Susan, >Words in and of themselves have no instinsic meaning; they are just >sounds. Yes. I think the book Finnegans Wake is a good example of this. >But those that use them intend things by those sounds, and >what they intend is the meaning. I see this the same way. Words do have meaning, but only because people agree that they do. Tim
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Words and Meanings
Dear Friends. >"words have no meaning, people have meanings." I would appreciate it very much if someone could explain what this means. I think words do have meaning. Granted, that meaning may change over generations, and may change within different contexts, but words do have meaning. For example, If I say: "After walking for 5 hours on a dusty road, on a hot summer day, I felt thirsty." You all know what I mean.right? So those words have meaning. If words have no meaning, what is the purpose of books or newspapers? If words have no meaning, why do we send email to one another? If words have no meaning, what is the point of conversation? And as for the statement "people have meaning", I can partially
understand that. But I still think words have meaning. The fact that you can read this email, and understand it, is evidence that words have meaning. Can anyone help me see what this statement is getting at? Thanks, Tim Nolan
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Unity and Truth
Gilberto, >It's not just that, it is actually connected to Bahai doctrines.>For example, check out "Wisdom and Dissimulation: The Use and Meaning>of Hikmat in the Baha'i Writings and History" which is Susan's paper>at As much as I like and admire Susan, her views are not Baha'i doctrine. Here is an aspect of Baha'i doctrine: "TRUTHFULNESS. Truthfulness is the foundation of all the virtues of the world of humanity. Without truthfulness, progress and success in all of the worlds of God are impossible for a soul. When this holy attribute is established in man, all the divine qualities will also become realized." (Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 384) I agree with Margaret that real unity is impossible without truthfulness. However, it is possible to
tell the truth with courtesy and kindness; it is not usually necessary to be harsh. Tim Nolan
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Re: Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, I think it's a mistake to focus on Jamal Effendi. As far as I know he died many years ago, so it isn't possible to ask him why he did this or that. If he was dishonest, that reflects on him, not on the Baha'i Faith. >But there are multiple examples of encouraging a certain amount of ambiguity when >it comes to religious identity based on Bahai texts and teachings. I am not a scholar, and I don't know Arabic or Persian, so I can't respond to this in detail. The Baha'i Faith teaches us to be honest and truthful. If individual Baha'is fall short of that, well we all have weaknesses. >if there is a situation where candor and forthrightness are in>conflict with unity, a Bahai might be more likely than the next person>to choose unity. It
seems to me that you are positing two choices: either one can be candid, or one can strive for unity, with the implication that putting unity first will sometimes entail being dishonest. I don't see it that way. First of all, candor is not always the best way. This is well known by any husband whose wife asks him, "Do I look fat?" It is possible to have unity as the highest priority while still being honest. Being truthful does not mean one must always say exactly what he thinks. In my view, honesty should be balanced with courtesy. Tim>he United States, many people are not ready to accept someTim>fundamental Baha'i principles, such as obedience and submissiveness Tim>to God's laws.Gilberto>Do you mean, accept in the sense of believing in those principles andGilberto>becoming Bahais? No, I mean
many people in the U.S. are not ready to accept the principle of obedience and submissiveness to God, whatever the religious foundation. This is a principle of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, as well as of the Baha'i Faith. I agree that if I pretended to be Christian, that would be dishonest on my part. As to what others do, that's not my concern. Tim Nolan
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Re: Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, >I think certain omissions are definitely the moral equivalent of lying. >In the Bahai case we are talking about Bahai preacher not telling their audience that>they were a different religion. I don't know the facts about Jamal Effendi, so I cannot comment on that. However, even if a Baha'i person did something that was not straightforward, or was dishonest, that would reflect on him or her, not on the Baha'i Faith. If a Muslim behaves in a dishonest way, does that diminish the truth of Islam? >But there are also a number of situations where a member of a different faith>would take a more "activist" or uncompromising approach where a Bahai>would strive to fit in and obey. The Baha'i teachings emphasize that the purpose of
religion is unity and harmony, that contention is forbidden. According to the Baha'i writings, the way to teach the Baha'i Faith is though friendliness and humility, not by "in your face" confrontation. Another principle is that Baha'is should present the Faith as if giving a gift; if the other person refuses it, the Baha'i should let him follow his own path. In general, in the United States, many people are not ready to accept some fundamental Baha'i principles, such as obedience and submissiveness to God's laws. If I were to initiate discussion on this topic, right at the start of a relationship, some people might put up mental walls, since they don't want to hear about this. If someone asked me a direct question, I hope I would give a direct, honest answer. But I might not bring up a challenging matter right at the
beginning of a relationship. Here is an example. The Baha'i teachings say that homosexual relatioships are immoral and are not allowed for Baha'is. I live in a small city that has a large (several hundred) and very vocal homosexual community. If I were just beginning to talk about the Baha'i Faith with someone, I would not bring up the Baha'i teachings on homosexual relations, at the beginning. If the other person asked me a direct question, I would feel obliged to say that the Baha'i Faith regards homosexual relations as immoral and forbidden to Baha'is. But I see no reason to begin a conversation with that.Tim Nolan
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Unity and Truth
Hi Gilberto, >This is a part of what makes me think that the Bahais value unity more>than truth. Its as if the important thing is to bring people together>under the Administrative Order by saying what they want to hear. Real unity must be based on truth, in my opinion. True unity cannot have a foundation of dishonesty. The Baha'i writings do not encourage us to say whatever people want to hear. Those writings do instruct us to speak kindly, to use mild words at first, and not to state things - at first - which are too challenging to people. Of course, if a person expresses belief in Baha'u'llah and wants to join the Baha'i community, then there are certain basic principles they must accept. But there is no need to challenge people too severely in the beginning of a relationship. Abdu'l Baha is our
perfect exemplar of how to teach the Baha'i Faith. When He traveled in North America, in 1912, he told a synagogue full of Jews that they ought to accept the truth of Jesus and of Muhammad. Do you think that is what the Jewish people wanted to hear? He told Americans that black and white people are one family, that they should live together as friends, and they should even marry one another. That's not novel today, but in 1912, that was shocking. The Baha'i teachings say we should be truthful, but kind and loving at the same time. Tim Nolan
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God and the Manifestations (was: delivering wives in Bible texts
Hi Gilberto, >I'm not sure how that relates to explaining how Christianity and the Bahai Faith are >similar or different in terms of Jesus and the Manifestations. Most Christians believe that Jesus was literally, physically, the same as God. The Gospels do not support that belief, in my view, nevertheless, Christians hold that Jesus was the Divine Essence in the flesh. The Baha'i authoritative writings explicitly deny that God can incarnate Himself. "Indeed, the God Who could so incarnate His own reality would, in the light of the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh, cease immediately to be God. So crude and fantastic a theory of Divine incarnation is as removed from, and incompatible with, the essentials of Bahá'í belief as are the no less inadmissible pantheistic and anthropomorphic conceptions of God -- " (Shoghi
Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 112) Tim Nolan
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Re: delivering wives in Bible texts
Hi Gilberto, >for Muslims, the prophets are all human and not divine. Perhaps Muhammad emphasized His humaness in order to correct the mistaken Christian view that Jesus was literally God. If Muslims believe Muhammad was nothing more than human, like us, then why do they try to emulate His example, by following the guidance in the hadiths? Tim Nolan
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Is there free will in the next world?
Abdu'l Baha has written: "". . . the tests and trials of God take place in this world, not in the world of the Kingdom." (Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p. 194) If there are no tests and trials in the next world, does that mean there is also no free will? Most of the troubles in this world are the result of people exercising free will. I do not mean that all troubles are due to malevolence. But, aside from natural disasters, the great majority of our pain and difficulties are the result of someone using free will. If souls have free will in the next world, how is it possible that there are no tests and trials there? It seems likely to me that we will not have free will in the next life. What do others think? Tim Nolan
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Hi Gilberto, First a question: >Muslims can pray on pretty much any piece of clean earth. Is a Muslim permitted to pray literally on the earth, that is on soil? What about on soil that is covered with fresh pine needles? What about on a sandy beach, where the sand is clean and can easily be brushed off? .. >Muhammad is the chronologically last prophet and messenger. This may be a non-issue if Baha'u'llah claimed to be in a different category from a nabi or a rasul. Perhaps other more knowledgeable members of the list say whether He did. Tim Nolan
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Re: How to know if your prayers are being answered
Thank you for letting me know."Richard H. Gravelly" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I am in receipt thereof. Richard.- Original Message ----- From: Tim Nolan To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 6:36 PM Subject: How to know if your prayers are being answeredFirst, Will someone please let me know whether this gets posted to the bahai-st list. The list never lets me see my own posts, so I never know if my note got through unless someone responds. David, My experience is that if I pray to be given something, or for something to happen, I almost never get what I asked for. If I want something I have to do it the old fashioned way, by working for it. I think prayer is, in a way, like exercise. Praying once a week, or only occasionally when I want something has little or no effect. The only way I have seen benefits of prayer is if I pray every day.
I have also found that if I pray mechanically, just saying the words, there is usually no effect that I can see. I have to think about the meaning of the prayer, to make the effort to understand it. I'm not saying your prayers are mechanical; that's not my business. I'm only sharing my experience. Tim Nolan Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates. The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual
or entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/all_forums/subscribe?name=bahai-st Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Unsubscribe: send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe: send subscribe bahai-st in the message body to
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Re: Why Do I Not See My Own Messages?
Don, Thanks for this suggestion. >Go to http://list.jccc.edu:8080/read/login/ >Enter your email address and then . >Click on the tab and see if you are to be rcving copies of your own >msgs. I did this, and on the Advanced tab it says: "Yes I want to receive an email copy of my postings". It was already set to that, but I saved it just to be sure. So, this is not the source of the problem. Thanks for trying to help though. Tim Nolan
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How to know if your prayers are being answered
First, Will someone please let me know whether this gets posted to the bahai-st list. The list never lets me see my own posts, so I never know if my note got through unless someone responds. David, My experience is that if I pray to be given something, or for something to happen, I almost never get what I asked for. If I want something I have to do it the old fashioned way, by working for it. I think prayer is, in a way, like exercise. Praying once a week, or only occasionally when I want something has little or no effect. The only way I have seen benefits of prayer is if I pray every day. I have also found that if I pray mechanically, just saying the words, there is usually no effect that I can see. I have to think about the meaning of the prayer, to make the effort to understand
it. I'm not saying your prayers are mechanical; that's not my business. I'm only sharing my experience. Tim Nolan
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Re: Why Do I Not See My Own Messages?
Susan and Marleen, >>Could your own messages be going into your spam folder? I don't think so; I have no rule set up to do that. But I'll keep an eye out for this. >Could your preferences or the settings of the list have been altered? That could be the reason. How do I see my list preferences or settings? Thanks, Tim
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Seal of the Prophets
Hi Gilberto, >And he also suggests that Muhammad really was the end of a certain religious cycle and that the Bab and Bahaullah were something different than prophets or messengers.< I agree. I think Muhammad truly was the last of the nabi and rasul. This is a new age. Baha'u'llah is something more than a rasul or nabi; He is in a new category. Humanity has entered a new era. The changes in communication provide an analogy. For many decades, we were limited to radio, television, newspapers, old-fashioned "snail mail" and telephones. Now we have the internet, which has changed everything. The telegraph was an important invention, but the internet has made it mostly irrelevant. We are at the dawn of a new age; the old categories no longer fit. Tim Nolan
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Re: question about Islam
Hi Gilberto, >That's why I don't think that a new Manifestation who will change things around is all that necessary.While remaining faithful to Islam, the rulings of scholars will take new realities into account.< You certainly have a right to your opinion. It seems that God does not agree, since He sent Baha'u'llah. Tim
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Re: Question about Islam: other opinions please
Hi Gilberto, >What has to be true in order for two religions to be "independent"?< Hmmm... I'm not sure I have the best definition, but I'll try. I think a religion is independent if its Founder claims to have a revelation direct from the Divine Reality, that is, God. A religion is independent if the Founder claims authority to change the laws of the previous religion. In the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah has changed the calendar, the Qiblih, the obligatory prayers, the law of fasting, and other matters. As I see it, there is actually only one religion, the religion of God. Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah all taught this one religion, but they expressed the teachings in stages. So, for example, Jesus did not forbid drinking wine, but Muhammad did. Muhammad did not provide a written
explicit covenant regarding His successor, but Baha'u'llah did. The fundamental principles of religion are eternal, but their mode of _expression_ changes from one revelation to another. Because there is only one religion, it is natural that there are similarities among the various revelations. All the divinely revealed religions are connected; it could not be otherwise. Tim Nolan
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Why Do I Not See My Own Messages?
When I send a message to Baha'i Studies, I never see it get posted to the group. That is, my own message does not come back to me. Since people respond to me, they must see my messages, but I never do. I see messages posted by others, but never my own. Why is that? Does anyone else have the same problem? Tim Nolan
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Question about Islam: other opinions please
>Are there any proofs that we can produce that Bahai is an independentreligion? The Shaykh of the Al Azhar university in Cairo does not seem to think so.< What proofs would he accept? The Baha'i Faith has independent sacred texts, a new calendar, a new Qiblih, laws which differ in some respects from Islam, an explicit written Covenant. If those things don't convince a person this is an independent Faith, then I don't know what will. There is no need to convince this man. Let him think what he pleases. The Cause of God is true and good regardless of my opinion or his, or anyone's. Tim
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question about Islam
Hello Janine, >He feels that the Bahai faith is just a reiteration of Islam, nothing new. < The Baha'i Faith has an explicit, written Covenant, which preserves the unity of the Baha'is. Islam doesn't have this, which is why there are rival Islamic factions. The Baha'i Covenant also provides a source of continuing, unerring divine guidance, after the Founder is no longer physically present. Sunni Muslims do not have this, and Shi'a Muslims haven't had this for about 13 centuries. Baha'u'llah forbids religious warfare, Muhammad did not forbid this. Those are just two examples off the top of my head. He will find others If he studies the revelation of Baha'u'llah more closely. Tim
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Science and Religion
Marleen and Susan, For some reason my emails are not getting posted to the Baha'i Studies list. I've sent this twice and it hasn't been posted. So, I'll respond directly. Hi Marleen, I apologize for the delay in responding. >but how do we know Abdul-Baha possessed superhuman knowledge when he couldn't discern factual errors? < First, there is this quote: "...in the person of 'Abdu'l-Bahá the incompatible characteristics of a human nature and superhuman knowledge and perfection have been blended and are completely harmonized." (Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha'u'llah, p. 134) Second, we don't actually know that He was unable to discern factual errors. The only thing we know
is He didn't choose to correct some errors. I think it is likely that Abdu'l Baha, as the perfect exemplar, wanted to teach us to be rational and to find out the facts, not to be superstitious about how knowledge is acquired. From that motive, He may have chosen to leave some errors uncorrected, so that we would learn to check facts, and not to rely fanatically, blindly on what He said. He may have been trying to show us how to combine faith with reason. If I thought of Abdu'l Baha as just a nice man who might fail to discern an error, I would be gravely underestimating Who He was. >Abdul-Baha wrote in Secret of Divine Civilization that Voltaire and other philosophers of the Enlightenment were atheists, when Voltaire's own words dispute this< This is from Promulgation of Universal Peace, which is not authenticated scripture,
and which may suffer from poor translation, as Susan has noted. But let's assume Abdu'l Baha did say this. Surely He is the best judge of whether Voltaire was an atheist. Voltaire may have believed in some type of God, but it may be that whatever he believed in did not qualify him as a real believer in the true God. By that standard he may have been an atheist. Here is an example to illustrate the point that Abdu'l Baha is the best judge of what someone really believes. He named Thornton Chase as the first Baha'i in America. However there were a few other Americans who accepted the Faith before Thornton Chase. Nevertheless, Abdu'l Baha, seeing the inward truth, said Mr. Chase was the first in America to merit being called a Baha'i. I think one of Robert Stockman's books is my reference for this.
>It would seem that the use of inaccurate information contradicts infallibility in all statements.< Only if one believes that one must be omniscient in order to be infallible. I don't believe infallibility is conditioned on omniscience. >I am more than a little puzzled about explaining Abdul-Baha's errors, especially related to science, to nonBahais< What scientific errors did Abdu'l Baha make? I am not aware of any. His statements about ether are not errors because He said ether is not a physical reality. His statements about evolution are not errors because, in my view, He was talking about the human soul, not the body. Nothing from Promulgation of Universal Peace or Paris Talks can be used as examples of errors, because those are not authenticated scripture.
So what errors are you talking about? These are merely my personal views; I have no comment about what others should believe. Tim Nolan
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Quotes about Abdu'l Baha (was: Abdu'l Baha, Science and Religion)
Marleen and Susan, For some reason my emails are not getting posted to the Baha'i Studies list. I've sent this twice and it hasn't been posted. So, I'll respond directly. >I'm not entirely sure they [Baha'u'llah's words about Abdu'l Baha] shed much light on whether Abdu'l-Baha was right about this, that and the other thing. Not unless you can find specific ways in which they apply. Simply listing them doesn't help us much. < For me, the quotes help because they orient my whole perspective, my mental framework, regarding Abdu'l Baha. If I forget the awesome, thundering, glorious words that Baha'u'llah used to describe the Most Great Branch, if I forget those words, then it's easy for me to fall into the error of thinking of Abdu'l Baha as nothing more than a very smart, progressive, virtuous man who is not fundamentally different from
us. In fact, however, Abdu'l Baha *is* fundamentally, categorically different from us. In my view, calling Abdu'l Baha "wrong" is like a newborn infant calling Aristotle wrong. The infant is not qualified to say Aristotle is wrong. By the same principle, I am not qualified to say Abdu'l Baha was wrong. And yes, I know Aristotle was wrong about some things, particulary scientific matters, but that is not relevant to my point. If you don't like Aristotle, pick your favorite great thinker. >We already know that Abdu'l-Baha was a Great Guy.< Susan, I know you are kidding here, but there are some people who think Abdu'l Baha was nothing more than a Great Guy. That's why it's important to reflect on Baha'u'llah's words and the Guardian's words about Abdu'l Baha. Those quotes establish the
framework within which to understand, however dimly, Abdu'l Baha's statements. That's how I see it. With affectionate thoughts, Tim Nolan
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